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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    bob_veng said:


    By the way, these are direct quotes from an article in the online magazine Richard Spencer was the editor of. If I ever start giving a platform to people calling for the genocide of the black race, feel free to walk up to me on the street and knock me the hell out. Please.

    no. it's not acceptable to relativize violence like that ("he said that so it's ok to hit him"). you are free to campaign for instituting hate speech laws in usa so he could be given a trial. look at laws in Germany, Netherlands, Canada...I agree with certain prohibitions for speech and i'm against absolute freedom of speech so we'd be on the same page there

    ...but it's not the right way, hitting people in the street. it's not just some negligible physical trauma, it's a very nasty and disturbing attack. don't make excuses for it.
    Did I say he should have been hit?? No, I did not. I said if I acted like that, I wish somebody would do it to me. I'm pointing out who this man is, and why people, while not condoning the act, also don't care that it happened. By the way, just out of curiosity, when IS the time people are allowed to fight back?? When you are being marched to the gas chamber?? Because trust me, if people like Richard Spencer were in charge, we'd be steps away from it happening. So yeah, obviously (for the third or fourth time) the idiot who ran up to him and clocked him in the face should not have done that, insomuch as you should never do it to anyone. But I have better, more worthy places to apply my sympathy. I fully support prosecuting the guy who did it (if they can find him). But I will also not shed tears for a Neo-Nazi. And a highly influential one at that, whose influence, now that Steve Bannon is sitting at the President's right-hand, has been multiplied 10 fold.

    It seems that it is now a requirement to not only condemn the act (which has been done numerous times over the past set of posts) but to also FEEL a certain way about it emotionally. As far as I can tell, I never wrote anything resembling "hell yeah, the son of a bitch got what was coming to him, can't wait to see more of it in the future!!!" It's counter-productive if only because it makes him a martyr of sorts. That said, I doubt the anarchist who did it thought of that, because they do stupid shit like this at every worthy protest that pops up in this country, providing the right with the cover they need to delegitimize millions of people because of one act.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    edited January 2017
    if you should not do it to anyone, why should you do it to you if you behave like spencer? why do it to you when you behave like spencer and not do it to spencer when he's being himself. apparently, you believe that's it's at the very least a just action, as a sort of a punishment, for that kind of speech. that's how you feel, at least.

    you're being slightly hysteric about his views. mass hysteria and street violence are cowardly recourses. social justice needs courage. figting hate requires a rational, intellectually and morally forceful response.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    bob_veng said:

    if you should not do it to anyone, why should you do it to you if you behave like spencer? why do it to you when you behave like spencer and not do it to spencer when he's being himself. apparently, you believe that's it's at the very least a just action, as a sort of a punishment, for that kind of speech. that's how you feel, at least.

    you're being slightly hysteric about his views. mass hysteria and street violence are cowardly recourses. social justice needs courage. figting hate requires a rational, intellectually and morally forceful response.

    So I can't even say, regarding my own opinion of what I would want to PHYSICALLY happen to MYSELF if I took such actions?? I am now saying for the 5th time that he shouldn't have been hit. And also saying that yeah, if I MYSELF did it, I would probably have it coming. I couldn't possibly be more clear about this. It shouldn't have happened, I don't particularly CARE that it happened, and that it was a dumb thing to do for a multitude of reasons.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    that's morally naive. no you can't. desiring that is desiring for there to be a person who will hit you for the same reasons spencer was hit and you elevate that into a value, a principle - you necessarily presume there should be an administrator of beatings for neonazis (or whatever). he's the true holder the emebodient of this nazi-hittung value andyou postulate him asa morally superior actor. in fact this actor is your very self in an ideal universe because if you were to be time warped to a future where you hold spencers views you would prefer to have the courage to hit your future self rather than not. if not why wish for someone else to do it it's cowardly and inconsistent. if its good for javcob to hit neonazi its good for jack etc. also imagine wanting being raped under some circumstance: if i ever dress like a whore somebody please rape me. who will rape you? a rapist who instead of you might as well have raped another person if she dressed like a whore - it doesn't matter because rape is an *absolute crime* and a crime has occured. just like violence is an absolute crime.

    i'm telling you dude your hearts at the right place but there can be only one administrator of punishment in a democracy based on inalienable rights - the state.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    These are not normal times. These are extraordinary times. And extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures.

    When you have a spokesperson for the president of the United States wrap up a lie in the Orwellian phrase "alternative facts”…

    When you have a press secretary in his first appearance before the White House reporters threaten, bully, lie, and then walk out of the briefing room without the cajones to answer a single question…

    When you have a President stand before the stars of the fallen CIA agents and boast about the size of his crowds (lies) and how great his authoritarian inaugural speech was….

    These are not normal times.

    The press has never seen anything like this before. The public has never seen anything like this before. And the political leaders of both parties have never seen anything like this before.

    What can we do? We can all step up and say simply and without equivocation. "A lie, is a lie, is a lie!" And if someone won't say it, those of us who know that there is such a thing as the truth must do whatever is in our power to diminish the liar's malignant reach into our society.

    There is one group of people who can do a lot - very quickly. And that is Republicans in Congress. Without their support, Donald Trump's presidency will falter. So here is what I think everyone in the press must do. If you are interviewing a Paul Ryan, a Mitch McConnell, or any other GOP elected official, the first question must be "what will you do to combat the lying from the White House?" If they dodge and weave, keep with the follow ups. And if they refuse to give a satisfactory answer, end the interview.

    Facts and the truth are not partisan. They are the bedrock of our democracy. And you are either with them, with us, with our Constitution, our history, and the future of our nation, or you are against it. Everyone must answer that question.

    -Dan Rather

    https://www.facebook.com/theDanRather/posts/10158087282405716
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Perhaps we should veer away from further discussing @jjstraka34's post, lest we start repeating ourselves.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    It's been relatively quiet today, except for Trump shaking Comey's hand (disgusting), Conway's interview with Chuck Todd, and the swearing in of his closest advisers, which include the aforementioned Conway, Bannon, his son-in-law, and Omarosa, a former contestant of his on The Apprentice.

    The media seems to agree that Trump sent out Sean Spicer to purposefully lie about the crowd-size, and seems to pretty much agree that if they will lie about something THAT trivial, what won't they lie about?? But they haven't yet decided to a.) actually call a lie a lie (they seem to have settled on "falsehood", which hits like a feather) and b.) what sort of action they will take. Step on would be boycotting Spicer's upcoming briefings or possibly just not having Kellyanne Conway on TV anymore. But that goes back to the laziness and infotainment nature of the media. Kellyanne Conway is always available and will always say something insane, so they will continue to book her.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited January 2017
    Vice President Mike Pence has said he doesn't believe that smoking kills.

    "Time for a quick reality check," Pence wrote. "Despite the hysteria from the political class and the media, smoking doesn't kill. In fact, 2 out of every three smokers does not die from a smoking related illness and 9 out of ten smokers do not contract lung cancer."
    ----

    I've lost a relatives who smoked to lung cancer.

    http://www.businessinsider.com/mike-pence-smoking-doesnt-kill-2017-1
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    Well I smoke and I think it's risky but it doesn't always kill. And second hand smoke is a complete and utter myth. So I will say that.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited January 2017

    Well I smoke and I think it's risky but it doesn't always kill. And second hand smoke is a complete and utter myth. So I will say that.

    yeah I gotta disagree with you there too. When I was a kid, my parents smoked all the time around me. I distinctly recall driving down the highway with dad chain smoking and the window rolled up (because it was cold) or slightly cracked. I had ashtma and emphysema and had smoking problems of my own when I grew old enough to smoke. If my parents weren't around me and I wasn't 2nd hand smoking that wouldn't have happened. All my siblings smoked too.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @Stormvessel Well you're right, it doesn't always kill. It doesn't kill you if you die to something else before dying to a smoking related cause.
  • StormvesselStormvessel Member Posts: 654
    edited January 2017
    I just get tired of people boohooing about everything. I smoke up. People are entitled to think it's stupid and I'm entitled to fly in their face and do it anyway. People need to get off their high horse and stop imposing their own values onto people unless they themselves have the power to enforce those values. I'm smoking when I want. It's my right, because as a right, I myself enforce it. If someone stronger than me wants to take away that right then it's their prerogative. But bitching and moaning has no effect on me because I give absolutely zero fucks about petty human sentiments.

    Smoking, like many things, isn't politically correct. And it's just something else for people to bitch and moan about. Ours is a culture of taking offense. A boohoo culture.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    A wise man once said:
    Try not to be a c*nt
  • YamchaYamcha Member Posts: 486

    And second hand smoke is a complete and utter myth. So I will say that.

    That's whats called an "alternative fact" in this Trump era, yes ?

    The tobacco industry made their own studies that were supposed to show its harmless. But we know better than that:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_smoking

    Feel free to check the sources in the footnote.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037


    What can we do? We can all step up and say simply and without equivocation. "A lie, is a lie, is a lie!" And if someone won't say it, those of us who know that there is such a thing as the truth must do whatever is in our power to diminish the liar's malignant reach into our society.

    -Dan Rather

    https://www.facebook.com/theDanRather/posts/10158087282405716

    Where was the public outcry against Mr. Obama's lies such as "if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor"? Where was the public outcry against Ms. Clinton's lies such as (paraphrased) "that Internet video led to a spontaneous uprising which resulted in the attack on the embassy in Benghazi"?

    If people are going to call out liars then they must call out *all* liars, including the ones on their side.

    News flash: politicians lie. I thought you all knew this by now.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    I just get tired of people boohooing about everything. I smoke up. People are entitled to think it's stupid and I'm entitled to fly in their face and do it anyway. People need to get off their high horse and stop imposing their own values onto people unless they themselves have the power to enforce those values. I'm smoking when I want. It's my right, because as a right, I myself enforce it. If someone stronger than me wants to take away that right then it's their prerogative. But bitching and moaning has no effect on me because I give absolutely zero fucks about petty human sentiments.

    Smoking, like many things, isn't politically correct. And it's just something else for people to bitch and moan about. Ours is a culture of taking offense. A boohoo culture.

    Bro if you want to kill yourself there are plenty of ways (including smoking) that you can do it. If you are so determined, no one can stop you. It's your life ultimately your actions.

    It's like people are saying, "hey buddy there's a cliff at the end of this road, you shouldn't go there". And you're replying "You people are just being politically correct, it's my right to go down this road, I do what I want." So yeah you can go drive off the cliff, you showed them. Maybe the cliff isn't 5 minutes down the road, maybe it's 20 years long. Maybe it's just around the corner. It's a poison that's guaranteed to kill you - eventually.

    Are people right telling you that you should not drive down the road that leads to a cliff? Yeah they are lol. We'd all be healthier if people didn't smoke tobacco. What do you get out of it? To me, when I smoked it merely calmed down my irritations and cravings. There's no high or euphoria or anything. What's great about it?

    I get it. I smoked. I knew in my heart something was wrong when I'd get out of breath, walk around stinking like smoke and everywhere I'd go I'd have to find a place to smoke. If I stopped smoking, the cravings would take over my brain and I could not focus on anything but "where can I get another cigarette!!" I would get angry and snippy.

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    No one in this thread has claimed anyone doesn't have a right to smoke. What people are saying is that it's not healthy. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you have to, or should.

    @Mathsorcerer: If my memory is correct, Clinton's statement was in the immediate aftermath of the attack, when even our intelligence officials were figuring out who was responsible and why it happened. And I don't understand the motive behind lying about that, since it's not like blaming the video would have made the administration look any better. Normally lies are designed to serve your own interests, and I don't see what she would have gained from it that she couldn't have done by blaming something else for the attack.

    In either case, there was a huge outcry over both of those things.
  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 591
    In my country, *this* gets elected to Parlament.



  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    In regards to smoking....I don't think people who do smoke (alot less than did 10 years ago) quite realize just how sick it makes some people who don't when they are around it. I was overjoyed when restaurants and bars started banning it, because the smoking/non-smoking sections did little to prevent getting overwhelmed with it at your meal. I had an ex I lived with who would smoke in the dining room every morning doing her bills and such, and it made me physically ill to be in there for more than 30 seconds. I have no problem with anyone smoking (though how that can be legal and pot isn't is mind-blowingingly ridiculous). But I also believe other people have a very fundamental right not to be subjected to it if they themselves don't smoke.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    @semiticgod The questions were more rhetorical than directed. There were indeed outcries about both situations; however, the main point was that highlighting one side's lies while ignoring those from the other side is disingenuous.

    re: smoking. Smoking has been on the decline--sharply--in the last 20 years in the United States. The places where smokers may smoke in public are mostly non-existent now and the prices of packs have skyrocketed to the point where I am uncertain how people in lower income tax brackets manage to continue to smoke at all.

    That being said, the cigarette manufacturers continue to be flush with cash because the rest of the world is still lighting up. In China alone there are an estimated 300 million smokers. If we are generous and presume that they all smoke an average of only one-half a pack per day, that still amounts to 3x10^8 * 10 * 365 = 1.095x10^12 cigarettes each year; that translates to over 1 *trillion* cigarettes...and the likelihood that they smoke only half a pack is pretty low (many will smoke more than that so 1 trillion underestimates the amount). If the manufacturers earn only $.0001 (one-hundreth of a penny) per cigarette they still make over $110 million each year. For more realistic numbers we should probably quadruple the number of smokers worldwide (or even quintuple it), presume they smoke .75 packs per day (15 cigarettes), and keep the earnings/cigarette the same; at that point, the annual earnings become about $675 million--again, these are probably underestimates, both in the number of smokers, the amount smoked, and how much profit per cigarette the manufacturers earn.

    Disclosure: I, also, used to smoke for a couple of years but quit cold turkey back in 2000. I will never tell anyone to stop because I have neither the desire nor the authority to tell other people how to live their lives. I will advise, though, that some businesses will not hire you if you are a smoker--that may be discriminatory, yes, but it is also a fact.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited January 2017
    Sean Spicer, at his briefing today, actually admitting that the media coverage over the Inauguration numbers and the protests have been "demoralizing" for Trump. He feels bad. Perhaps the President has been triggered and needs a safe space?? Or maybe he'd like a participation trophy for showing up.

    Also, anytime you hear a Republican talking about block grants for health insurance, it means one thing: drastically cutting Medicare.

    Back in the Nixon era, when Nixon refused to answer Dan Rather's question, Tom Brokaw used his question to say "Would you please answer Mr. Rather's question??" We don't have people like that anymore. This press corp is ripe to get absolutely steamrolled if they don't grow some balls.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    Well I smoke and I think it's risky but it doesn't always kill. And second hand smoke is a complete and utter myth. So I will say that.

    You can believe what you want, but I will believe in Heather Crowe and her legacy here in Ontario. R.I.P.
    When the smoking ban took effect here, as a non-smoker even, I was personally for smoker's rights (and if a business wanted to have smoking available to their patrons, then that is their prerogative), however, since the last decade my opinion has shifted drastically the other way. Bars, clubs and restaurants are cleaner and it is my opinion, and the opinion of many smokers that I know, that is just more courteous to smoke away from those who do not smoke.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heather_Crowe

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tW1fhtKGPb4

    I just get tired of people boohooing about everything. I smoke up. People are entitled to think it's stupid and I'm entitled to fly in their face and do it anyway. People need to get off their high horse and stop imposing their own values onto people unless they themselves have the power to enforce those values. I'm smoking when I want. It's my right, because as a right, I myself enforce it. If someone stronger than me wants to take away that right then it's their prerogative. But bitching and moaning has no effect on me because I give absolutely zero fucks about petty human sentiments.

    Smoking, like many things, isn't politically correct. And it's just something else for people to bitch and moan about. Ours is a culture of taking offense. A boohoo culture.

    I will also say that smoking is not a right, it is a privilege. People tend to get those two things mixed up.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Anyway I'm shocked that it is 2017 and there are people out there, such as vice president pence, who go around telling people that cigarettes aren't bad.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850

    Anyway I'm shocked that it is 2017 and there are people out there, such as vice president pence, who go around telling people that cigarettes aren't bad.

    During the Bush administration, John Boehner passed out campaign contribution checks from the tobacco lobby on the House floor.
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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Shandyr said:



    You have the right to smoke. You DO NOT have the right to make other people miserable by doing so. That's not being "politically incorrect." That's called being a jerk.

    For some, that's all what "political correctness" is about. Not being a jerk. That's why they loathe it.
    I generally think this is the crux of the issue as well (overwhelmingly). I just continue to not understand what wants to be said that isn't deemed acceptable anymore. And all I can come up with is that it is FAR less socially acceptable to use gay slurs and tell racial jokes or use racial sterotypes. And, again, by all means, you are free to do so. But you're gonna get pushback. Loud, forceful pushback. And I think people actually fighting back where as 20 years ago you could say it with impunity is the heart of the issue. It has nothing to do with free speech or society becoming "wussified" or " feminized". It has to do with people not used to having their comments critiqued finding themselves (ironically) in the minority in social settings.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    Let's say your name is Bill Jr. Your whole life people have been calling you junior. It wasn't your idea, just that's what people have done. You're sick of everyone calling you junior. You want to be called Bill. Who's right, the people who are ingrained calling you junior or you for wanting to be called Bill?

    Let's say you officially change your name to Bill and drop the junior bit. Then some guy comes around and calls you junior. You ask the guy why? He says he's not politically correct.
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