Why shouldn't he be blamed, though? As you pointed out - he knew where his allegiances are, yet he still made the decision to father children. There is such thing as parental responsibilities.
Regarding this then AFAIK there has never been a mention of Birth Control in any of the D&D literature, given that i would disagree. I mean sure there's the possibility of it with alchemy and magic, but even if there is then unlikely to be used by a Paladin i would say.
The implication that he is a bad father is certainly evident in the game, no arguments from me regarding that, but at the end of the day she broke her marriage vow and he didn't. Considering his paladin status and God then duty would be highly prized, i can definitely see why harsh punishments would be dealt in his situation.
Personally when i do his quest then i release him to work on his marriage after talking with the Merchant rather than killing him, i think the point of the quest is that you basically decide what you think is acceptable. I'm just saying that picking the harshest result possible, dead merchant and jailed wife, is actually not out of bounds for a paladin of Torm. No matter how bad of a father and husband he was the choice was made for someone else to try and steal his family, by his wife of all people and to do that she broke a Holy Vow to Torm.
@chimaera He has a church behind him, the quest makes it clear they are already teaching his children, i see no reason why they would not step up and provide additional care until his wife is released. If anything it would be a clear statement that they take the law, and in particular Holy vows, extremely seriously.
Quests like these, which force you to regard npcs as characters who have social relations and connections which may not align with Charname's quest, help to bring the game world alive as well.
On the topic of contraception etc. in fantasy I read an old Runequest supplement the other day which had a spell in it that made the male partner take on the pain of childbirth (voluntaily or else it would make for a great curse!). A spell list for witches incorporating practical & earthy fertility magic like that would be a strong contrast to the combat oriented spells which usually pop up.
@chimaera I can't agree with that. Even if they didn't bang, emotional cheating is still cheating. At the end of the day Maria knew what she was getting into when they go married, as Keldorn said. She knew the law, as well, and disloyalty should be punished and homewrecking doubly so.
As for Korgan and Keldorn, I've only ever had them in a party once, but I think Keldorn had some respect for Korgan as a warrior.
Infidelity works both ways. Keldorn made the same wedding vows as his wife. His protracted and frequent absense is neglect and emotional abuse. If Maria is deserving of jail time then so is he. She at least sought someone who could be a proper father figure to her children.
I'm think we need to remember: these people and this society do not share our values. The closest analogy to the Firecams that I can come up with are the Prussian Junkers. Amn/Athkatla is surrounded by enemies, both similar to them (humans to Amn, Austria and other German states to Prussia) and different (trolls, orcs, hobgoblins, ogres, giants, etc vs Russia, Sweden, France, Poland, etc). The Junkers were supposed to lead in war, government, religion, etc. Junkers were given much but were required to sacrifice much. The analogy isn't perfect, but Keldorn would be expected to spend a lot of time away, either fighting, training others, taking care of other business for the order, and so on. His wife would be expected to run the estate, have and raise children, network with other women, etc.
I think our natural inclination in modern Western culture would be to sympathize with Maria and maybe see if we can save the marriage. But in much of the world and for most of human history, this would not be the case.
I usually try to get them to reconcile, but not always; it does depend on how CHARNAME would see it.
Infidelity works both ways. Keldorn made the same wedding vows as his wife. His protracted and frequent absense is neglect and emotional abuse. If Maria is deserving of jail time then so is he. She at least sought someone who could be a proper father figure to her children.
Ah, yes. "Emotional abuse" and "neglect". The classic excuse for cheating. Maria knew very well what she was signing up for when she married a man of the church, and she never even tried to talk to Keldorn about her issues. She's has no excuse.
Infidelity works both ways. Keldorn made the same wedding vows as his wife. His protracted and frequent absense is neglect and emotional abuse. If Maria is deserving of jail time then so is he. She at least sought someone who could be a proper father figure to her children.
Ah, yes. "Emotional abuse" and "neglect". The classic excuse for cheating. Maria knew very well what she was signing up for when she married a man of the church, and she never even tried to talk to Keldorn about her issues. She's has no excuse.
I'm saying that it works both ways. You can't only condemn one when the other is also unfaithful.
I think of paladins as holy soldiers. Soldiers in general have a higher calling. How many kings, generals, rulers, lords or even holy men have control over their time? Especially in times of crisis, they may not be able to break away from their primary responsibilities to pay more attention to family matters. I'm not saying that Keldorn has been involved in crises for his entire marriage, but I don't feel guilty for taking him away from his family to help me out during the Bhaalspawn saga.
If you go by the actual story instead of gameplay mechanics it is heavily implied that all joinable NPCs played a role in the fight against the five and Mellisan. Minsc was there whether you brought him or not (according to canon) for example. This isn't that hard to believe especially if you like to rotate NPCs from the pocket plane. It's just a shame that only the PCs you brought with you in the final battle get their ending sequence.
That in mind, how you tackle Keldorn's dilemma (because he seems to REALLY take into consideration the PC's input) depends on the whether your PC values the kind of love that inspires people to abandon their duties in order to be with the people they love - at the risk of putting everyone in greater danger, or the kind of love that inspires people to place duty above all other else for the sake of the people they love - at the risk of losing them. And yes, @tbone1 hit the nail on the head with his post (based on my own experiences). People who seem to have much more to lose seem to value the former kind of love, while people who come from simple beginnings or who have struggled all their lives tend to value the latter. There are several variations of this, like people realizing too late that they actually had much more to lose (Bioware LOVES this variation, there's at least one example in all their RPGs). Personally, I think it's a trick question - either extreme is a red herring. The trick is to find the middle ground that works.
And seriously people, how many grizzled folks do you know do not have a particular vendetta against something that "seems" out of place with the rest of their character? "Ooooh I hate onions with a passion... because my youngest granddaughter died from pancreatitis after ingesting too much onions." "Ooooh I hate drow on sight... because I've seen firsthand the results of drow raids and have lost too many good people to them." It could very easily be just a side effect of living long enough, and it doesn't help that the drow definitely make it -very- easy to hate their race. There is just no real-life equivalent of the drow race (a magically and technologically advanced race with a society that rewards cruelty, domination/manipulation and perversion). Perhaps the closest equivalent we have are civilizations like the Aztecs (who lacked the xenophobia/advanced technology/magical advantage of the drow, and so were conquered by the Spanish) and the Huns (by reputation; and that was mostly because of Attila).
"Thornhold" is one of the Forgotten Realms Harper series novels by Elaine Cunningham. There are some good tidbits about paladins and there orders there are reflective of Keldorn's story. How the protagonist's father is a paladin and how his dedication to the "greater good" affected his personal life and family. Interesting read for atleast one novelist's take on paladins in the Forgotten Realms.
Infidelity works both ways. Keldorn made the same wedding vows as his wife. His protracted and frequent absense is neglect and emotional abuse. If Maria is deserving of jail time then so is he. She at least sought someone who could be a proper father figure to her children.
Ah, yes. "Emotional abuse" and "neglect". The classic excuse for cheating. Maria knew very well what she was signing up for when she married a man of the church, and she never even tried to talk to Keldorn about her issues. She's has no excuse.
I'm saying that it works both ways. You can't only condemn one when the other is also unfaithful.
How has Keldorn been unfaithful? He was serving a higher cause, a divine cause. He was making the world a better place. This is ridiculous.
Keldorn didn't go to say hello to his family even though his home is in the same city and he was stationed in the Order's Headquarters doing jobs in the city or just nothing for months. He did take Maria's faith and the well-being of his daughters way much too granted. And being a father and husband, this can be seen as being unfaithful, imho. That scene when he greets his daughters - it is heart breaking. The dev writing that really didn't like paladins who put their duty over family. Or, he saw it very realistic..
OT: I also have great problems seeing a good PC taking Keldorn away from his family. Not after that quest. Not after that scene with his daughters.
@chimaera Maria knew what she was getting herself into when she married a paladin. Keldorn left his family wanting for nothing, they were provided for, they had the best education, servants, etc. Keldorn's family lived better than 99.9% of the population, most of whom were peasants trying to make ends meet. Maria is frankly ungrateful in addition to being unfaithful; she deserves to hang alongside her lover.
Also, there was absolutely no reason why his wife and kids couldn't visit him at his headquarters daily. It was like 20 minutes away at most.
This is all more evidence that Mazzy is the only true paladin in Amn!
You may not know this, but Noober and Neeber were both paladins of Ilmater, taking on the suffering of others by annoying the crap out of them and being pelted with rocks.
@chimaera Maria knew what she was getting herself into when she married a paladin. Keldorn left his family wanting for nothing, they were provided for, they had the best education, servants, etc. Keldorn's family lived better than 99.9% of the population, most of whom were peasants trying to make ends meet. Maria is frankly ungrateful in addition to being unfaithful; she deserves to hang alongside her lover.
Also, there was absolutely no reason why his wife and kids couldn't visit him at his headquarters daily. It was like 20 minutes away at most.
Did she? Would she really expect that with the Radiant Heart headquarters in town, that Keldorn would be gone for months at a time, only to return home for maybe a day? I find it interesting that you give Keldorn a pass when abandoning his family, but Maria derserves jail time for finding a man to take her kids to the circus.
@chimaera Maria knew what she was getting herself into when she married a paladin. Keldorn left his family wanting for nothing, they were provided for, they had the best education, servants, etc. Keldorn's family lived better than 99.9% of the population, most of whom were peasants trying to make ends meet. Maria is frankly ungrateful in addition to being unfaithful; she deserves to hang alongside her lover.
Also, there was absolutely no reason why his wife and kids couldn't visit him at his headquarters daily. It was like 20 minutes away at most.
Did she? Would she really expect that with the Radiant Heart headquarters in town, that Keldorn would be gone for months at a time, only to return home for maybe a day? I find it interesting that you give Keldorn a pass when abandoning his family, but Maria derserves jail time for finding a man to take her kids to the circus.
Yes, she did unless she is literally retarded. He's a paladin, their entire lives are devoted to their god and the church. Anyway, cheating is cheating no matter how often Keldorn was home. She betrayed him and broke the law, she's gonna get what's coming to her.
@chimaera Maria knew what she was getting herself into when she married a paladin. Keldorn left his family wanting for nothing, they were provided for, they had the best education, servants, etc. Keldorn's family lived better than 99.9% of the population, most of whom were peasants trying to make ends meet. Maria is frankly ungrateful in addition to being unfaithful; she deserves to hang alongside her lover.
Also, there was absolutely no reason why his wife and kids couldn't visit him at his headquarters daily. It was like 20 minutes away at most.
The children "visiting" their father at his headquarters is not a father taking care of his children. And why are you shifting the parental responsibilities from the father onto the kids in this situation? If it was a 20 minutes distance at most, then there is absolutely no excuse for Keldorn not spending more time at home, taking care of his daughters; if anything, your statement illustrates his failure as both a husband and a father.
I find it quite telling that you expect everyone - including his children - to take responsibility for Keldorn and his choices.
You're applying 21st century thinking to a medieval fantasy setting. Fathers didn't take their kids to circus in those times, they worked from dawn till dusk to provide for their families. Raising the children was left to the mother, or in case of nobles, the servants and tutors. Keldorn provided for his kids better than almost everyone except royalty. On top of that, he was protecting them and the rest of Athkatla from all kinds of evil supernatural threats.
I expect Maria to take responsibility for her infidelity, which means she goes to prison.
I expect Maria to take responsibility for her infidelity, which means she goes to prison.
And by doing that everyone is unhappy. Everyone. Keldorn sends a woman he still loves to jail and the already frosty relationship with his children is completely ruined. He loses everyone he cares about. And for what? "The law" and "his honor". Being lawful isn't always being good (frankly, that's the whole point of the quest) and honor in this case is little more than macho pride.
It's not about applying modern sensibilities to a medieval society (I'd argue that Faerun isn't nearly as medieval as it seems at first glance, but that's besides the point), it's about doing what causes the least amount of harm to all parties involved. "YOU CHEATED ON ME YOU WHORE ASGGHFGSGF PRISON DEATH" isn't a reasonable reaction, ever. It's motivated entirely by ego and revenge.
@unholy_avenger I see your point, and it's more or less everything that the PC has to go through if romancing Ajantis in my Ajantis romance, but for Keldorn, the encounter and what was said makes it clear that he didn't went home as often as he could have and therefore he failed his duties and it's his fault, too. You can't talk this away and put all the blame on Maria, no matter how much she should have known what his paladin duties meant. Putting all blame on her although he failed, too, sounds a bit like hitting someone and then saying "look what you did me do!".
Comments
The implication that he is a bad father is certainly evident in the game, no arguments from me regarding that, but at the end of the day she broke her marriage vow and he didn't. Considering his paladin status and God then duty would be highly prized, i can definitely see why harsh punishments would be dealt in his situation.
Personally when i do his quest then i release him to work on his marriage after talking with the Merchant rather than killing him, i think the point of the quest is that you basically decide what you think is acceptable. I'm just saying that picking the harshest result possible, dead merchant and jailed wife, is actually not out of bounds for a paladin of Torm. No matter how bad of a father and husband he was the choice was made for someone else to try and steal his family, by his wife of all people and to do that she broke a Holy Vow to Torm.
On the topic of contraception etc. in fantasy I read an old Runequest supplement the other day which had a spell in it that made the male partner take on the pain of childbirth (voluntaily or else it would make for a great curse!). A spell list for witches incorporating practical & earthy fertility magic like that would be a strong contrast to the combat oriented spells which usually pop up.
Cassil - Taken in ground form, it'll leave men infertile for about a week.
Nararoot - Women can either eat shavings or steep it as a tea for a more pleasant flavour. This will last approximately 1 - 2 weeks.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Nararoot
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Cassil
As for Korgan and Keldorn, I've only ever had them in a party once, but I think Keldorn had some respect for Korgan as a warrior.
Infidelity works both ways. Keldorn made the same wedding vows as his wife. His protracted and frequent absense is neglect and emotional abuse. If Maria is deserving of jail time then so is he. She at least sought someone who could be a proper father figure to her children.
I think our natural inclination in modern Western culture would be to sympathize with Maria and maybe see if we can save the marriage. But in much of the world and for most of human history, this would not be the case.
I usually try to get them to reconcile, but not always; it does depend on how CHARNAME would see it.
This isn't that hard to believe especially if you like to rotate NPCs from the pocket plane.
It's just a shame that only the PCs you brought with you in the final battle get their ending sequence.
That in mind, how you tackle Keldorn's dilemma (because he seems to REALLY take into consideration the PC's input) depends on the whether your PC values the kind of love that inspires people to abandon their duties in order to be with the people they love - at the risk of putting everyone in greater danger, or the kind of love that inspires people to place duty above all other else for the sake of the people they love - at the risk of losing them.
And yes, @tbone1 hit the nail on the head with his post (based on my own experiences). People who seem to have much more to lose seem to value the former kind of love, while people who come from simple beginnings or who have struggled all their lives tend to value the latter.
There are several variations of this, like people realizing too late that they actually had much more to lose (Bioware LOVES this variation, there's at least one example in all their RPGs).
Personally, I think it's a trick question - either extreme is a red herring. The trick is to find the middle ground that works.
And seriously people, how many grizzled folks do you know do not have a particular vendetta against something that "seems" out of place with the rest of their character?
"Ooooh I hate onions with a passion... because my youngest granddaughter died from pancreatitis after ingesting too much onions."
"Ooooh I hate drow on sight... because I've seen firsthand the results of drow raids and have lost too many good people to them."
It could very easily be just a side effect of living long enough, and it doesn't help that the drow definitely make it -very- easy to hate their race. There is just no real-life equivalent of the drow race (a magically and technologically advanced race with a society that rewards cruelty, domination/manipulation and perversion).
Perhaps the closest equivalent we have are civilizations like the Aztecs (who lacked the xenophobia/advanced technology/magical advantage of the drow, and so were conquered by the Spanish) and the Huns (by reputation; and that was mostly because of Attila).
OT: I also have great problems seeing a good PC taking Keldorn away from his family. Not after that quest. Not after that scene with his daughters.
Also, there was absolutely no reason why his wife and kids couldn't visit him at his headquarters daily. It was like 20 minutes away at most.
"You knew the job was dangerous when you took it, Fred." - Superchicken
I expect Maria to take responsibility for her infidelity, which means she goes to prison.
It's not about applying modern sensibilities to a medieval society (I'd argue that Faerun isn't nearly as medieval as it seems at first glance, but that's besides the point), it's about doing what causes the least amount of harm to all parties involved. "YOU CHEATED ON ME YOU WHORE ASGGHFGSGF PRISON DEATH" isn't a reasonable reaction, ever. It's motivated entirely by ego and revenge.