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The Nightmare Mode (Legacy of Bhaal) Thread

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  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    Aasim said:

    Klorox said:

    I'm really surprised the barbarian and/or dwarf defender with 100% resistance to damage isn't in here.

    Without knowing the setting that well, it sounds like one of these would be invaluable to soak damage.

    Assuming you're using SCS, your 100% resistant tank will be ignored by enemies for more juicer targets.
    I only play on my iPhone, so I can't use mods.

  • EnuhalEnuhal Member Posts: 513
    High damage resistance is great, of course, but its only achievable in the lategame, and taking a character along only for that might not be worth it for some people (lots of classes are great in the lategame thanks to overpowered HLAs - I tend to think a bit more about safely getting there, but I usually play no-reload games, so my priorities are different), considering that arcane spellcasters can stop enemy attacks quite effectively with their own protection spells (like PFMW). Most people tend to prefer some kind of arcane spellcaster multiclass if they need tanking power, while fighter-types are mostly used for their high damage potential.

    That being said, feel free to try out a barbarian or dwarven defender and tell us how well they work for you - I actually did consider a barbarian for a while, though not only for the damage resistance; the immunity to backstab was also very interesting to me. In the end, I didn't find a good slot for one in my party, as I wanted my damage dealers to have the damage scaling of an archer or kensai and my more defensive classes to have the ability to cast protective spells.

    JuliusBorisovislandking
  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 288
    Klorox said:

    I'm really surprised the barbarian and/or dwarf defender with 100% resistance to damage isn't in here.

    Without knowing the setting that well, it sounds like one of these would be invaluable to soak damage.

    It's because 100% resistance isn't possible in unmodded game. DD will get 93% and barbarian will get 80% at best.
    Enuhal said:

    High damage resistance is great, of course, but its only achievable in the lategame

    Well DD gets 80% pretty early in ch2 with DoE but indeed with SCS enemies will start simply ignoring him.
    Enuhal said:

    Most people tend to prefer some kind of arcane spellcaster multiclass if they need tanking power, while fighter-types are mostly used for their high damage potential

    This is indeed true, this game simply evolves around arcane spellcasters that's why SCS is one of most popular mods as it adds a decent AI to enemy spellcasters and their spell repertoire.

    Only thing that can be on pair with a mage multiclass tank is DD with 93% damage resistance with Foebane and Silver Dragon Armor who will heal more than he will take damage so potentially he can last until his many many defensive stances run out.

    Note that boss type enemies don't ignore full physical resistant characters (i.e. dragons etc.)

    @Enuhal I've realized later on that you said noreload and now I like your setup more. There are setups that bloom late game and setups that are preferred only for reload plays. Avenger druid is simply soloing most BGEE and SOD content so he is perfect candidate for no reload but with greater malison he might be just too good.

    Also, did you consider taking jester with your party, -2 save is still very good even in LOB if you got any arcane caster for greater malison bringing it down to -6 pretty much will be good even in tob. Of course having two bards is wierd gameplay but once you get bard hat you can use second as arcane caster for 2 our of 3 rounds.

    Lastly, everyone should also consider Fighter (any kit) -> Druid duals and Fighter/Druid multis if you have SCS improved shapeshifting installed as they can get undispellable 90% damage resistance but I tend to feel their damage output and APR in shapeshifted forms is a bit lacking compared to other classes.

    ps. I wish Monks could get effects of improved haste as that would make them very decent choice for powergaming party otherwise their 4APR (5 with offhand) is simply too bad comapred to 10/9APR multi/dual beasts.


    JuliusBorisov
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    Myrag said:

    After two full SOA -> TOB full runs including WK with Demogorgon kill I can say few things from my side.

    Besides obvious it was NM with pretty much all AI and Tactics challenges and some personal tweaks from SCS. I tried IR and SR in v2 after yoga kill but so late in the game it just felt odd and I kept dying because of it.

    I created my entire party so that 6/6 members do something in the fight and not just sit in the back or invisible. So far what I concluded is even though I like inquisitor I couldn't play with him because I dislike melee fighters without stoneskin/ironskins because they need to stand in the back because they simply get destroyed.

    There are many things to consider in such playthrough but so far my party was

    - Kensai (pure dagger throwing beast) CHARNAME
    - FMT (most of the game as ranged using firetooth xbow - I tend to buy it as soon as I can leave city; probably best value item for the buck especially as I like to travel early to de'arnise where it is invaluable). Later on in the game he goes dual wielding or carsomyr. At times I liked to put shield on him so that he can serve as my second tank.
    - Archer - I think archer is the most gamebreaking single spec char for NM (except mindflayer mage) because with Vhailor helmet and IH you can drain dragons to 0str in one round so they simply die regardless of their HP. On my second run I stopped doing this as it felt cheesy.
    - R/C - my favorite tank, mostly because I like having cleric in the team and tank with stoneskin which with this combo I can achieve, obviously he's built around as low AC as possible so he can hold of anything as single tank very early
    - Sorcerer - even though I could swap this for other powerful char often Sorc is simply winning fights alone
    - Skald - there has been so much discussion around this char but for me it became irreplaceable character, +4AC, hit and dmg is simply amazing because in NM summons are great deal and his singing works too, at some point if fight is too hard I just gave him vhailor and mislead so I could get +12 to all bonuses

    Above team I would say sorc and kensai are the ones I would consider replaceable but I had fun with both. Kensai being able to throw daggers for around 40-45 dmg was able to dish out 400 (800 with Critical Strikes) dmg per round. Archer was not far off. Those two bad boys made most fights a breeze.

    I tend to use summons a lot especially very early and against vampires. Again I rather have this than sit in invis or out of line of sight.

    For my next run I planned to go Kensai/Mage to see if downtime pays off but I don't like duals in 6man party because it takes quite long to regain your main spec. Also as powergamer in heart I hate to dual at 9 so I only consider dual at 13.

    With above party I don't think I reloaded much throughout the game so I can't say if any fights were particularly difficult. Usually when something was harder infinite power of sorcerer just handled it. PI -> TS -> IA -> everything.

    Few things I felt in love in NM are
    - crowd control spells
    - glitter dust
    - all spells that modify throws or AC or hit

    Mostly because you can dish them out very fast and greatly increase your damage and prevent damage on your tanks.

    I love it, but did you find missing out on 9th level spells difficult?

  • MyragMyrag Member Posts: 288
    Klorox said:

    ..
    I love it, but did you find missing out on 9th level spells difficult?

    Ohh you dug up quite old post.

    Well if you consider I had sorcerer in the party I wasn't missing lvl9 spells that much, endgame felt easy anyway as sorcerer pretty much erased everything in the timestop anyway.

    Althought since then I also have following thoughts
    • Any mage multi/dual is better than R/C for tanking purposes
    • FMT I prefer them dual wielding since the beginning ranged damage is just too weak, they are beasts with daystar/sct/blackrazor/adruvadal/etc.
    • Any character which has no defense that makes them immune to hit is pretty high maintenance including Archer/Kensai as SCS enemies tend to focus their attacks on them
    • The more melee the better because it increases value of self buffs like mirrors/skins/etc since the enemies have more targets to hit
    • Cleric buffs are really useful so FMC is crazy good

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    Myrag said:

    Klorox said:

    ..
    I love it, but did you find missing out on 9th level spells difficult?

    Ohh you dug up quite old post.

    Well if you consider I had sorcerer in the party I wasn't missing lvl9 spells that much, endgame felt easy anyway as sorcerer pretty much erased everything in the timestop anyway.

    Althought since then I also have following thoughts
    • Any mage multi/dual is better than R/C for tanking purposes
    • FMT I prefer them dual wielding since the beginning ranged damage is just too weak, they are beasts with daystar/sct/blackrazor/adruvadal/etc.
    • Any character which has no defense that makes them immune to hit is pretty high maintenance including Archer/Kensai as SCS enemies tend to focus their attacks on them
    • The more melee the better because it increases value of self buffs like mirrors/skins/etc since the enemies have more targets to hit
    • Cleric buffs are really useful so FMC is crazy good
    I did dig up an old post. I also dug up the wrong one, LOL.

    I know there’s a 4 person party of FMT, CR, archer, skald on here somewhere. Or maybe not. I’m on a ton of cold meds and have been for a couple of days. LOL

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    Klorox said:



    I know there’s a 4 person party of FMT, CR, archer, skald on here somewhere. Or maybe not. I’m on a ton of cold meds and have been for a couple of days. LOL

    Well, there was. I took a screenshot and everything, but the post must have been deleted. Weird.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    Good to see new faces around and hungry for some LoB action.

    Damage resistance tanking was discussed in detail a few pages back, TL;DR is it seems that with SCS many enemies are scripted to break off attacks on anyone with physical resistance 75% or higher, meaning you can only tank if there's a chokepoint preventing enemies from getting to anyone but the tank. Since this is not possible reliably, immunity or near-immunity through DR stacking is not a sure-fire solution, though there are various options to play around with the concept still (read up on it if you're interested).

    Ranged damage (Archer in particular) does indeed increase in value in LoB for the reasons mentioned. The old caveats for Archers still apply (e.g loses value in late late game), how much you value the gains/losses in that equation depends on your setup and preferences.

    Speaking of setup, I must not let an opportunity pass by to proselytize and convert the heathens to the Spell Revisions/Item Revisions mods, which I think make for a considerably more satisfying experience if you're in it for difficulty. YMMV, obviously, but I invite anyone to give it a go. They're a game changer in every sense of the word. (Also keep in mind I'm always using these mods, so if you read me talking about some setup in this thread, it's always with IR/SR in mind and may be very different from what I'd do without those mods)

    As for party size, I remain a firm believer in maximum size as the optimal route, as EXP towards the end tends to scale less anyway and enemy stats are not in any way influenced by party size - meaning more people = more damage output, straight up. It also allows you to run with a bard buff bot, as 5 people getting buffed means the loss of an actual damage dealer is worth it (3 + 1 bard is practically always an overall damage loss, for example).

    semiticgod
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited September 2017
    I agree with your last paragraph 100%. The more the merrier. I have not tried IR/SR yet, I may look into it in the future. I beat BG1 and SOD on LOB with SCS but when I got to BG2 the first dungeon kicked my ass pretty hard. I decided to uninstall Ascension out of fear that I was getting in over my head. After finishing BG2 I have decided to start the trilogy over on LOB mode with SCS and Ascension. If I can actually beat it, I will try IR/SR. Thanks for the recommendation.

    I only use NPC's in the game, no multiplayer mode for me and I feel like this LOB/SCS changes the game to the point where I can no longer play it casually. It's a great challenge but sometimes it forces me to play in ways that don't make sense from a roleplaying perspective. I have tried my best to find ways to get around the issue but at the moment I feel like I have to use meta knowledge and sometimes questionable tactics in order to win. It's an uneasy balance and I am not sure if I prefer LOB mode or not. It certainly makes the game longer and more rewarding if you can overcome it without abusing and exploiting the game. Not using exploits is the hardest challenge for me on this mode and I am not sure if the added difficulty from IR/SR would be a good thing for guy like me.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176

    I only use NPC's in the game, no multiplayer mode for me and I feel like this LOB/SCS changes the game to the point where I can no longer play it casually. It's a great challenge but sometimes it forces me to play in ways that don't make sense from a roleplaying perspective.

    One possible solution to this could be simply disconnecting the RP from the gameplay. Use single player, but modify the game NPCs to be whatever class setup you want. That way, you get to play with interesting character and enjoy their quests, banter, romance, etc. without worrying that you're taking Valygar along even though his class sucks, or whatever.
    How far you go with the disconnect I guess determines how much you can solve your second dilemma. Personally, I disconnect 100% - what I do in combat is not subject to my RP in any way whatsoever. To put it in perspective, think of it as a written story where all you read would be something like "and they went and fought the band of gnolls and trolls and all the lions, tigers, and bears, and prevailed". No details, just the gist: there was combat, you won. Move on with the story, and make some meaningful choices.

    Doesn't work for everyone, of course. But it's one way to preserve at least a part of the RP, which may be enough for some people.

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    I find 4 person parties optimal for regular games, 6 is just too clumsy.

    I’m going to give 5 a shot.

    Here’s the party I rolled up last night. Starting in BGI:

    1) FMT elf. Gonna eventually wield Carsomyr.
    2) F/Ill gnome. Axes and Belm.
    3) C/R half elf. Flails
    4) archer elf short bows
    5) skald half elf

    Wish me luck!!

  • EnuhalEnuhal Member Posts: 513
    It should be mentioned that the C/R has been nerfed/fixed in the current EE version and doesn't gain access to level 5+ druid spells anymore, so no ironskins, no insect plague, no fire elementals, no nature's beauty etc. - that's a huge nerf and propably makes a fighter/cleric better from a powergaming perspective.

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    Enuhal said:

    It should be mentioned that the C/R has been nerfed/fixed in the current EE version and doesn't gain access to level 5+ druid spells anymore, so no ironskins, no insect plague, no fire elementals, no nature's beauty etc. - that's a huge nerf and propably makes a fighter/cleric better from a powergaming perspective.

    Daaaang

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    Enuhal said:

    It should be mentioned that the C/R has been nerfed/fixed in the current EE version and doesn't gain access to level 5+ druid spells anymore, so no ironskins, no insect plague, no fire elementals, no nature's beauty etc. - that's a huge nerf and propably makes a fighter/cleric better from a powergaming perspective.

    I believe you can revert to the old behavior by changing a parameter in the .lua

    Not that this would make me like druid spells any more.

    semiticgod
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    I see you guys saying that SCS will ignore physically resistant characters.

    What about in vanilla nightmare mode? Is a barbarian a valid option (granted, I might have to baby him to 19th level)?

    If not, I think I’m gonna try:

    FMT elf
    F/Ill gnome
    F/C dwarf
    F/D 1/2 elf
    Archer elf
    Skald 1/2 elf

    Ugh 6.

  • EnuhalEnuhal Member Posts: 513
    Vanilla AI won't ignore high physical resistance characters, so you would be fine there. Still, I'd argue taking a barbarian along just for that isn't worth it considering the spell-based tanking abilites of a F/I. Your current party setup certainly looks quite strong imho.

    However, as long as you have a strong core of characters, you should be fine taking along an experimental class or two, especially with a vanilla installation.

  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    Enuhal said:

    Vanilla AI won't ignore high physical resistance characters, so you would be fine there. Still, I'd argue taking a barbarian along just for that isn't worth it considering the spell-based tanking abilites of a F/I. Your current party setup certainly looks quite strong imho.

    However, as long as you have a strong core of characters, you should be fine taking along an experimental class or two, especially with a vanilla installation.

    Alright, cool. Thank you.

    I plan on starting in BGI. I was just able to update.

    I’m playing on my iPhone so I couldn’t install apps even if I wanted to.

    The cool thing with my current setup is everybody but the archer can summon monsters.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    It's pretty silly SCS ignores high DR but does not mind endless stoneskins

    semiticgod
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176

    It's pretty silly SCS ignores high DR but does not mind endless stoneskins

    True, I suppose. Though to be fair it's much harder to deal with damage resistance than with Stoneskin, which are vulnerable to dispel (and SCS spams dispels like mad). Not that you can't deal with THAT, too, of course... ;)

    Still, I think DR has potential. I still haven't had time to finish my last run with the almost-75% tank but from how far I got it seemed very solid. And since LoB fights last a lot longer, it seemed more reliable than SS tanking. Plus, it seems that many very big, single enemies do NOT have the DR mechanic in their script. Golems, dragons, etc. will happily keep on pounding a resistance tank from what I could tell so far. Which is very, very useful.

    If I ever get time to play this decade that'd be super, then I could try these things out more.

    semiticgod
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,990
    edited October 2017
    Isn't the damage resistance target switch based on weapon immunity in general? You wouldn't want your awesome summons to keep attacking that naturally slashing damage resistant Clay golem, would you?


    Edit: grammar. "You wouldn't... do you?" is awful English.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,176
    lroumen said:

    Isn't the damage resistance target switch based on weapon immunity in general? You wouldn't want your awesome summons to keep attacking that naturally slashing damage resistant Clay golem, would you?

    It kicks in considerably sooner than full immunity, though. I haven't done exhaustive testing, but the preliminary data is pretty suggestive of 75% being the threshold.

  • AasimAasim Member Posts: 591
    From SCS library file:

    TRIGGER=SlashingSafe
    CheckStatLT(scstarget,75,RESISTSLASHING)
    TRIGGER=PiercingSafe
    CheckStatLT(scstarget,75,RESISTPIERCING)
    TRIGGER=CrushingSafe
    CheckStatLT(scstarget,75,RESISTCRUSHING)

    FinneousPJArctodussemiticgodAndreaColombo
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780
    Anybody ever try LOB solo?

    I’m doing ok with a barbarian in BG1.

    I’m building her towards complete physical immunity (limited, of course) in BG2.

    FinneousPJ
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Nope I think it would be extremely tiresome...

  • EnuhalEnuhal Member Posts: 513
    edited October 2017
    @Grond0 finished BG1 LoB solo with a sorcerer, if I remember correctly. Would be too tedious for me to try, though.

    semiticgodJuliusBorisovStummvonBordwehr
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,187
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 780

    So far, the consensus, largely established by @Harpagornis' pioneering work, is that a Totemic Druid dual-classed to fighter at level 15 or higher is the ideal solo character over the course of the tetralogy, at least with SCS and Ascension, in a no-reload context. Its summons play a critical role in tackling BG1, SoD, and much of SoA, and its fighter levels will prove instrumental in winning the late-game fights that a solo Totemic Druid would struggle to survive--namely, Ascension Melissan.

    Interesting.

    I had thought a regenerating dwarf (20 CON with the buckler you can get at level 1) fighter/cleric summoning skeletons would be great.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,095
    @Klorox: A fighter/cleric has strong potential in LoB mode, but spirit animals are even tougher than skeletons, and can be summoned much faster (casting time of 1 instead of 9, and last I checked it ignores aura, letting you summon multiple critters in a single round). It's enough to outweigh the fighter/cleric's superior tanking ability and damage output, since a solo LoB character is generally better off kiting than engaging in melee.

    Klorox
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Personally I would question the legitimacy of a solo challenge using summons ;) Solo means alone. Using summons or simulacra etc. is not alone.

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