Does anybody have links to some texts explaining why exposed female superhero showing off "attributes" (meaning, eyes, obviously) isn't an equivalent of exposed male superhero showing off muscles (not aesthetically-wise, obviously, because in such term they're the same, but it's not what we're discussing here)? Can't find any right now but I remember some good stuff on that topic.
@winters I'm not sure what you mean with that question but I'll try to answer based on my opinion.
Do you mean why cleavage isn't the same with men showing their muscular upper body?
There's really no reason except societal rules and religion, where showing female breasts is "wrong" but showing male chests is "fine".
For example, in Ancient Greece you had various depictions of women on statues or pottery being naked and Spartan women even competed in Olympic sports totally naked like men.
If that's not what you're talking about, can you elaborate?
My major issue with most superheroes, men and women alike, is that none of them seem to understand the core human principle of donning their underwear inside of their pants/tights/body paint.
My major issue with most superheroes, men and women alike, is that none of them seem to understand the core human principle of donning their underwear inside of their pants/tights/body paint.
Also - despite what joggers would have you believe, skintight spandex isn't that warm. If your costume is thin enough to allow all that muscle definition to be seen then you'll be freezing your nuts off come winter. Let's face it, capes aren't exactly thermals.
@Archaos I read several articles on this that pointed out that being a muscular demi-god of sex is a male fantasy as well. You arn't looking enough at meaning and too much at literals. The reason a man is portrayed as a super muscled demi-god is to appeal to men who want to live through them. I've met very few women who take a look at something like Kratos and think "Thats so hot." but I've met alot of men who would love to live through his character and be a super badass who bangs all the chicks.
Meanwhile women wearing skimpy clothing in battle is *also* a male fantasy. Either way, its male oriented, and that is the problem people have.
That being said, I have nothing against skimpy clothing as long as it fits the character and isn't to the point where its ridiculous. It all depends on how practical and realistic you want your fantasy. The less realistic and practical you make your fantasy art and worlds the more likely you are to be made fun of for it. its just part of how people work, and alot of this stuff goes over the line of what many consider acceptable.
Now, you can argue that barbarians are wearing even less but one thing to consider is they often have wounds, arrows in them, swords cutting them apart. Meanwhile, women who go around skimpily dressed never suffer any wounds what so ever. The barbarian shows skin and takes damage to show hes tough. The women does so to say "I have boobs and ass". Even though they are dressed similar the reason is completely different. Its not hypocrisy to be okay with one and not the other, its acknowledging the message the lack of clothing is sending is totally different.
That being said, if you enjoy women in skimpy armor and metal thongs, I'm not telling you not too. By all means, go ahead and enjoy it. Hell, I enjoy the idea of amazonian women with huge chesticles even though I know the idea is completely unrealistic and silly. Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean its not ridiculous and it leaves me without a need to defend the concept if someone criticizes it. I just say "Yup, you're right. Still like it.". Basically, enjoy what you want but don't deny its flaws. Life becomes alot easier when you do this.
@Necomancer, thank you So Much for that. I was trying to find this article I remember reading for a few hours now, since I'm afraid that my English isn't good enough to explain it without sources. You managed to do that in way fewer words, which is awesome.
By the way. Many women fight for right to wear *less* for absolutely practical reasons (see: some totally absurd school rules) but they're denied to do this despite killer temperatures because it's improper and provocative, since exposed skin = danger. Female nudity means invitation to sex, vulnerability and sensuality, male nudity means power, which is actually many men's view on both genders. It's both a matter of portrayal and its interpretation.
@Winters My main thought on clothing is this. I want it to fit the character. I'm going to reference a game called Seiken Densetsu 3, a JRPG I played when young. One character in it, named Angela, wore what was essentially a one piece outfit that could easily be made into a thong. She was also a spoiled princess and mage. One of her taunts was actually smacking her rear at the enemy and sticking her tongue out at them.
This clothing fitting her. It worked for who she was and I have no complaints there. Its when they take a serious warrior woman and put her in a metal corset that shoes off her breasts and rear that bothers me. Most of this art I don't know the characters behind them, but I can still see the absurdity of some of these outfits.
All this being said, I fully support any woman's right to wear as little clothing as possible for purely innocent reasons I assure you stop judging me.
@Necomancer, yeah. How could I have anything against pretty girls in skimpy clothes? Give me a break. But please, them being everywhere for every possible or even no reason at all is kind of ridiculous. But hey, not admitting to being horny all the time is so unmanly, right? Right. Nobody would want to eat chocolate ice-cream each and every time they turn their heads. Probably. Hopefully.
My major issue with most superheroes, men and women alike, is that none of them seem to understand the core human principle of donning their underwear inside of their pants/tights/body paint.
For a long time I have thought that the underwear over the pants,in case of men and the glorified swimsuits for women are actually the true secrets behind superpowers. All those fancy origin stories are nothing but decoys to avoid us, normal people (completely not an alien here, just a normal human writing), to acquire our own superpowers... I just have to figure out how spandex and capes enter the equation...
My issue is not the art itself. With some games I enjoy realistic clothing and armor. On others, like JRPGs I don't mind some less "realism".
Let's put aside that the thread title is an oxymoron. Unrealistic. Fantasy. Fantasy by definition is unrealistic.
Even with the vanilla (A)DnD rules, you could make a completely naked character and give them Bracers of Armor +8. There you go, a character that is as protected by wearing bracers as wearing full plate.
What annoys me is the reaction. Not every single piece of fantasy should be realistic. And that's good. And neither is one better than the other, they're just different for different tastes.
Especially when "magic" throws realism out of the window. (See example of magic bracers above)
I can enjoy fantasy games like the Witcher and Final Fantasy, equally.
First off: That being said, I have nothing against skimpy clothing as long as it fits the character and isn't to the point where its ridiculous. It all depends on how practical and realistic you want your fantasy. The less realistic and practical you make your fantasy art and worlds the more likely you are to be made fun of for it. its just part of how people work, and alot of this stuff goes over the line of what many consider acceptable.
That right there. Yes, fantasy, that doesn't mean we have to accept parts we find ridiculous or silly. It doesn't mean we find a world where someone being stabbed with a sword and dying is as acceptable and enjoyable as someone who gets stabbed with a sword and turns into a bunch of pink bubbles filled with tiny fish singing the Mexican national anthem because fantasy allows everything ever. It comes down to taste. As I said, the less realistic and less practical it is the more people will mock it. That, and there is never an excuse for a metal thong.
Gameplay mechanics don't even come into play. This isn't about baldur's gate. This isn't about DnD. This thread is about unrealistic fantasy art in general.
As for magic? See, heres why we can accept magic. The better we understand something, the more realism we want in it. Let me give an example. In diablo 3 you have some demon hunter able to rapid fire crossbows like a gattling gun. This is silly, because we know how crossbows work and we know they don't work that way.
We do *not* know how magic works and never will. This is why we can accept it doing near anything. If we did have an understanding of it you better believe we'd have people going 'IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!'. In some settings you do have people doing that. This is also the reason most sci-fi series have some sort of mystery power or source of technology we don't understand, so they can do anything they want with it and since we don't know how it works we accept it because theres nothing to criticize (see, mass effect and uh...Well, mass effect and how it works in game)
Regardless, if you enjoy unrealistic fantasy armor, thats fine. This thread was made for people who don't. For people who know that armor is actually suppose to cover things and not expose vital areas. For people who think +12 armor that exposes a woman's heart to any stray arrow is silly. What you're doing is like going into a thread for people who say they hate chocolate chip cookies and going "Those cookies are okay stop trying to say they're not". I'm just saying, you're not necessarily wrong but neither are the other people in this thread mocking this sort of armor. Its a matter of taste and trying to defend your taste is...pointless, honestly.
The bottom line is you don't have to defend yourself or your love of unrealistic fantasy armor. Thats fine. Just don't expect others to feel the same way and they can, and will, make fun of it. Hell, plenty of people go the opposite route and say women should not wear full plate because then you can't tell its a woman and thats bad character design. Personally, I disagree with this and think knowing the gender of a fully armored badass is not that important. However if I find myself in a thread made for people who think like this I'm not going to go in and try and defend my views, they have a right to enjoy their women in metal corsets just like I have a right to make fun of them somewhere else for it. The point being, don't be a killjoy and just let people have their fun even if you disagree with it.
@Necomancer While I agree that everyone has a right to agree with it, I will disagree that I'm a "killjoy" if I express a different opinion.
If a thread was made, called "Baldur's Gate is the best game ever" and I pointed them at better games, in my opinion, and told them "here's why I disagree" in a civil manner, I am a killjoy?
That's basically saying "if you're in a Baldur's Gate forum and say that Baldur's Gate is not the best game ever, we don't want you here, you're a killjoy, shoo". To which I would reply "freedom of speech".
This is a public thread and unless I didn't notice it, we're allowed to express different opinions or even unpopular ones, as long as they're done in a civil manner, without being labeled as "killjoys".
That's quite rude at the very least.
The funny part is that I actually agree with the general thread. Some of these fantasy pictures are silly. I'm not a huge fan of chainmail bikinis either.
I just disagree that everything and anything that is not super realistic in a fantasy setting needs to be made fun of and couldn't work in a fairly realistic game and setting like the Forgotten Realms and DnD, when rules actually support it.
Another example: It's like making a thread saying "look at all those stupid and unrealistic games that are not Baldur's Gate, haha". I just disagree with it.
I also don't find much point in making fun of excellent fantasy art that isn't super realistic. When it was obviously never the goal of it. But that's just me.
If a thread was made, called "Baldur's Gate is the best game ever" and I pointed them at better games, in my opinion, and told them "here's why I disagree" in a civil manner, I am a killjoy?
That's basically saying "if you're in a Baldur's Gate forum and say that Baldur's Gate is not the best game ever, we don't want you here, you're a killjoy, shoo".
In such an instance, I believe the proper term would be heretic and/or blasphemer. xD (Only fooling)
@Archaos Fair enough, you have the right to your opinion and to express it, just don't be surprised if you do go into a thread about baldur's gate being the best game ever and find everyone shooting down your arguments against it as you make them.
All I'm saying really is this is all in good fun, and we shouldn't take it too seriously. Alot of this artwork is good, but alot of it is also heavily sexually focused and for some that breaks immersion, because they realize this character isn't designed to be realistic, its ment to cause men to drool. Thats what people are expressing here, how this armor breaks their suspension of disbelief because its obviously designed for reasons to appeal to the viewer and not the person wearing it.
This is common in fantasy RPGs, yes I admit that, but there are levels of it. This thread is about different people's levels of comfort when it comes to such things. If you think one picture isn't so bad, feel free to say so. People have in the past and even I admit some arn't that bad, though I stand by my belief that there is never a reason to wear a thong in combat.
That being said, I've pretty much made my points well enough I think, and I apologize if I was rude earlier. I didn't mean to say you were unwanted and your opinions invalid, just that to me this is like going into a donut shop and telling people sugar is bad for them. At best people will ignore you, at worse they'll get into a heated argument that ends with police and assault charges. Luckily this forum is pretty cool, so I think at worse you'll get someone trying to argue against all your points with his own counterpoints in what could be considered a friendly discussion.
@Necomancer Don't worry, no offense taken. And I'm the type of person that supports a good discussion and argument and loves to challenge taboos. (Chaotic Neutral with Good tendencies I guess)
To resurface an older point I made. I'm not supporting chainmail/plate bikinis. Those are silly anyway you see them.
But a character that needs only her agility (Rogue/Duelist/Monk) or magic to fight, she could wear a thong and do just as a well. Not unrealistic. Just unlikely. If she would is a matter of preference on that character and by extension the vision of the artist.
Is it ridiculous if they fought in a thong? Sure. Could they still hold their own and kick ass since they only need agility/magic? Absolutely.
The problem I personally have is not amount of clothes any character wears. Hell, I made a couple of female characters that hated wearing too much clothes, let alone armour (shudder). What I dislike about most of these pictures are their faces. Dreamy, pouty, devoid of any expression, saying "take me here and now", not "I'm here to kick ass". Not a shadow of cockiness or anger expected from someone brave enough to wear next to nothing on battlefield. ...That and metal bras. Mental image of a mage preparing for battle by putting levitation spells on her boobs, so they aren't pulled down by weight of that stuff... yeah, it keeps haunting me.
The problem I personally have is not amount of clothes any character wears. Hell, I made a couple of female characters that hated wearing too much clothes, let alone armour (shudder). What I dislike about most of these pictures are their faces. Dreamy, pouty, devoid of any expression, saying "take me here and now", not "I'm here to kick ass". Not a shadow of cockiness or anger expected from someone brave enough to wear next to nothing on battlefield. ...That and metal bras. Mental image of a mage preparing for battle by putting levitation spells on her boobs, so they aren't pulled down by weight of that stuff... yeah, it keeps haunting me.
When those huge boobs sag with age, they could be swung like nunchakus for 1d6 damage per hit ^_^
If a thread was made, called "Baldur's Gate is the best game ever" and I pointed them at better games, in my opinion, and told them "here's why I disagree" in a civil manner, I am a killjoy?
...Is there really a better game than Baldur's Gate?
If a thread was made, called "Baldur's Gate is the best game ever" and I pointed them at better games, in my opinion, and told them "here's why I disagree" in a civil manner, I am a killjoy?
...Is there really a better game than Baldur's Gate?
My major issue with most superheroes, men and women alike, is that none of them seem to understand the core human principle of donning their underwear inside of their pants/tights/body paint.
Also - despite what joggers would have you believe, skintight spandex isn't that warm. If your costume is thin enough to allow all that muscle definition to be seen then you'll be freezing your nuts off come winter. Let's face it, capes aren't exactly thermals.
Yeah, and in a way it makes it even worse - the drawing is generally pretty good; nice face, great hair, jewellery and clothes, this awesome animal - and such an obvious anatomy f*ckup Painful.
by Zeronis Okay, she's completely covered, but that armor is ridiculous. by anotherwanderer Hope you weren't counting on that belly protection, sir! by malverro Really?! You had to go into battle with half your ass hanging out? by Re-Rian And this, ladies and germs, is WHY we wear armor! by Aniamitura Being a demon is the only reason one would want to go around garbed like this… by crow-god Boots and gauntlets- Great! Rest of her body, not so much. by JamesJKrause Spiky fruit says: "Do NOT touch!" Over the top, otherwise okay.
by JamesJKrause Spiky fruit says: "Do NOT touch!" Over the top, otherwise okay.
The designer clearly assumed that this armour's future owner is an easily distracted person, since s/he provided it with a nice pair of epaulette blinder-like thingies.
Edit: I seem to have missed the point of this thread... I read "Unrealistic Fantasy Art" and my brain translates it into "strange armor" for some reason...
Comments
Do you mean why cleavage isn't the same with men showing their muscular upper body?
There's really no reason except societal rules and religion, where showing female breasts is "wrong" but showing male chests is "fine".
For example, in Ancient Greece you had various depictions of women on statues or pottery being naked and Spartan women even competed in Olympic sports totally naked like men.
If that's not what you're talking about, can you elaborate?
Meanwhile women wearing skimpy clothing in battle is *also* a male fantasy. Either way, its male oriented, and that is the problem people have.
That being said, I have nothing against skimpy clothing as long as it fits the character and isn't to the point where its ridiculous. It all depends on how practical and realistic you want your fantasy. The less realistic and practical you make your fantasy art and worlds the more likely you are to be made fun of for it. its just part of how people work, and alot of this stuff goes over the line of what many consider acceptable.
Now, you can argue that barbarians are wearing even less but one thing to consider is they often have wounds, arrows in them, swords cutting them apart. Meanwhile, women who go around skimpily dressed never suffer any wounds what so ever. The barbarian shows skin and takes damage to show hes tough. The women does so to say "I have boobs and ass". Even though they are dressed similar the reason is completely different. Its not hypocrisy to be okay with one and not the other, its acknowledging the message the lack of clothing is sending is totally different.
That being said, if you enjoy women in skimpy armor and metal thongs, I'm not telling you not too. By all means, go ahead and enjoy it. Hell, I enjoy the idea of amazonian women with huge chesticles even though I know the idea is completely unrealistic and silly. Just because I enjoy it doesn't mean its not ridiculous and it leaves me without a need to defend the concept if someone criticizes it. I just say "Yup, you're right. Still like it.". Basically, enjoy what you want but don't deny its flaws. Life becomes alot easier when you do this.
By the way. Many women fight for right to wear *less* for absolutely practical reasons (see: some totally absurd school rules) but they're denied to do this despite killer temperatures because it's improper and provocative, since exposed skin = danger. Female nudity means invitation to sex, vulnerability and sensuality, male nudity means power, which is actually many men's view on both genders. It's both a matter of portrayal and its interpretation.
This clothing fitting her. It worked for who she was and I have no complaints there. Its when they take a serious warrior woman and put her in a metal corset that shoes off her breasts and rear that bothers me. Most of this art I don't know the characters behind them, but I can still see the absurdity of some of these outfits.
All this being said, I fully support any woman's right to wear as little clothing as possible for purely innocent reasons I assure you stop judging me.
Let's put aside that the thread title is an oxymoron. Unrealistic. Fantasy. Fantasy by definition is unrealistic.
Even with the vanilla (A)DnD rules, you could make a completely naked character and give them Bracers of Armor +8.
There you go, a character that is as protected by wearing bracers as wearing full plate.
What annoys me is the reaction. Not every single piece of fantasy should be realistic. And that's good.
And neither is one better than the other, they're just different for different tastes.
Especially when "magic" throws realism out of the window. (See example of magic bracers above)
I can enjoy fantasy games like the Witcher and Final Fantasy, equally.
That right there. Yes, fantasy, that doesn't mean we have to accept parts we find ridiculous or silly. It doesn't mean we find a world where someone being stabbed with a sword and dying is as acceptable and enjoyable as someone who gets stabbed with a sword and turns into a bunch of pink bubbles filled with tiny fish singing the Mexican national anthem because fantasy allows everything ever. It comes down to taste. As I said, the less realistic and less practical it is the more people will mock it. That, and there is never an excuse for a metal thong.
Gameplay mechanics don't even come into play. This isn't about baldur's gate. This isn't about DnD. This thread is about unrealistic fantasy art in general.
As for magic? See, heres why we can accept magic. The better we understand something, the more realism we want in it. Let me give an example. In diablo 3 you have some demon hunter able to rapid fire crossbows like a gattling gun. This is silly, because we know how crossbows work and we know they don't work that way.
We do *not* know how magic works and never will. This is why we can accept it doing near anything. If we did have an understanding of it you better believe we'd have people going 'IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY!'. In some settings you do have people doing that. This is also the reason most sci-fi series have some sort of mystery power or source of technology we don't understand, so they can do anything they want with it and since we don't know how it works we accept it because theres nothing to criticize (see, mass effect and uh...Well, mass effect and how it works in game)
Regardless, if you enjoy unrealistic fantasy armor, thats fine. This thread was made for people who don't. For people who know that armor is actually suppose to cover things and not expose vital areas. For people who think +12 armor that exposes a woman's heart to any stray arrow is silly. What you're doing is like going into a thread for people who say they hate chocolate chip cookies and going "Those cookies are okay stop trying to say they're not". I'm just saying, you're not necessarily wrong but neither are the other people in this thread mocking this sort of armor. Its a matter of taste and trying to defend your taste is...pointless, honestly.
The bottom line is you don't have to defend yourself or your love of unrealistic fantasy armor. Thats fine. Just don't expect others to feel the same way and they can, and will, make fun of it. Hell, plenty of people go the opposite route and say women should not wear full plate because then you can't tell its a woman and thats bad character design. Personally, I disagree with this and think knowing the gender of a fully armored badass is not that important. However if I find myself in a thread made for people who think like this I'm not going to go in and try and defend my views, they have a right to enjoy their women in metal corsets just like I have a right to make fun of them somewhere else for it. The point being, don't be a killjoy and just let people have their fun even if you disagree with it.
If a thread was made, called "Baldur's Gate is the best game ever" and I pointed them at better games, in my opinion, and told them "here's why I disagree" in a civil manner, I am a killjoy?
That's basically saying "if you're in a Baldur's Gate forum and say that Baldur's Gate is not the best game ever, we don't want you here, you're a killjoy, shoo". To which I would reply "freedom of speech".
This is a public thread and unless I didn't notice it, we're allowed to express different opinions or even unpopular ones, as long as they're done in a civil manner, without being labeled as "killjoys".
That's quite rude at the very least.
The funny part is that I actually agree with the general thread. Some of these fantasy pictures are silly. I'm not a huge fan of chainmail bikinis either.
I just disagree that everything and anything that is not super realistic in a fantasy setting needs to be made fun of and couldn't work in a fairly realistic game and setting like the Forgotten Realms and DnD, when rules actually support it.
Another example: It's like making a thread saying "look at all those stupid and unrealistic games that are not Baldur's Gate, haha". I just disagree with it.
I also don't find much point in making fun of excellent fantasy art that isn't super realistic. When it was obviously never the goal of it.
But that's just me.
(Only fooling)
All I'm saying really is this is all in good fun, and we shouldn't take it too seriously. Alot of this artwork is good, but alot of it is also heavily sexually focused and for some that breaks immersion, because they realize this character isn't designed to be realistic, its ment to cause men to drool. Thats what people are expressing here, how this armor breaks their suspension of disbelief because its obviously designed for reasons to appeal to the viewer and not the person wearing it.
This is common in fantasy RPGs, yes I admit that, but there are levels of it. This thread is about different people's levels of comfort when it comes to such things. If you think one picture isn't so bad, feel free to say so. People have in the past and even I admit some arn't that bad, though I stand by my belief that there is never a reason to wear a thong in combat.
That being said, I've pretty much made my points well enough I think, and I apologize if I was rude earlier. I didn't mean to say you were unwanted and your opinions invalid, just that to me this is like going into a donut shop and telling people sugar is bad for them. At best people will ignore you, at worse they'll get into a heated argument that ends with police and assault charges. Luckily this forum is pretty cool, so I think at worse you'll get someone trying to argue against all your points with his own counterpoints in what could be considered a friendly discussion.
To resurface an older point I made. I'm not supporting chainmail/plate bikinis. Those are silly anyway you see them.
But a character that needs only her agility (Rogue/Duelist/Monk) or magic to fight, she could wear a thong and do just as a well.
Not unrealistic. Just unlikely.
If she would is a matter of preference on that character and by extension the vision of the artist.
Is it ridiculous if they fought in a thong? Sure.
Could they still hold their own and kick ass since they only need agility/magic? Absolutely.
What I dislike about most of these pictures are their faces. Dreamy, pouty, devoid of any expression, saying "take me here and now", not "I'm here to kick ass". Not a shadow of cockiness or anger expected from someone brave enough to wear next to nothing on battlefield.
...That and metal bras. Mental image of a mage preparing for battle by putting levitation spells on her boobs, so they aren't pulled down by weight of that stuff... yeah, it keeps haunting me.
…But is there a game better than BG2?
*takes*
*crops for BG portraits*
Edit: I seem to have missed the point of this thread... I read "Unrealistic Fantasy Art" and my brain translates it into "strange armor" for some reason...