Are you breaking the shadowdancer?
Infiltrator
Member Posts: 121
Hello, let me first say that I had multiple passes through BG2, specifically with thief, assassin and bounty hunter kits so I consider myself good at using and abusing their abilities.
I was getting into a discussion here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/21925/assassin-or-shadowdancer#latest and came to the conclusion that the shadowdancer may be useless if you just diminsh his backstabbing ability like originally intended.
He loses the ability to one-shot mages, one of the primary abilities of non-swashbuckler thieves, and for that he gains a built-in staff of the magi. Which is all well and nice at first, until you get your hands on some better items (which is not that hard) and you can use potions and rings to mimic the shadow dancer while retaining strong backstab multipliers.
Not only that, but the shadowdancer is also forgoing the poison, the +1 thaco/dmg and the extra multiplier from the assassin, while also getting hit with the same skill penalty as one.
Currently, he may seem like a good choice to me in the early game where you lack the items but once you start getting them, his multiplier stops dead and the class tapers off.. am I right?
I suggest that you leave his stab multiplier to a regular's thief.
I was getting into a discussion here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/21925/assassin-or-shadowdancer#latest and came to the conclusion that the shadowdancer may be useless if you just diminsh his backstabbing ability like originally intended.
He loses the ability to one-shot mages, one of the primary abilities of non-swashbuckler thieves, and for that he gains a built-in staff of the magi. Which is all well and nice at first, until you get your hands on some better items (which is not that hard) and you can use potions and rings to mimic the shadow dancer while retaining strong backstab multipliers.
Not only that, but the shadowdancer is also forgoing the poison, the +1 thaco/dmg and the extra multiplier from the assassin, while also getting hit with the same skill penalty as one.
Currently, he may seem like a good choice to me in the early game where you lack the items but once you start getting them, his multiplier stops dead and the class tapers off.. am I right?
I suggest that you leave his stab multiplier to a regular's thief.
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Comments
It's the thief skill penalty which is mostly the issue. People generally take some kind of thief for the ability to disarm traps or open locks. The Assassin's skill penalty means it can't fulfill that kind of role without sacrificing its defining draw, the backstab, but there's still some worth in taking it for added strategic benefits (rather than just another fighter e.g.). Making the Shadowdancer just another backstab-orientated character isn't really adding anything new.
I'd rather they balanced it by looking at the Bounty Hunter: 20 thief skill points per level and a level 1 boost to set traps (for shadowdancer, it'd be stealth skills).
This would provide a happy middle-ground I think:
- enough skill points to let the SD be the party's only thief (just not a great one)
- more backstabs but less efficient ones, so not as good versus mages but better damage per encounter mostly since it's more free to backstab multiple times with no micromanaging [also when Shadowstep is fixed, I assume it can be used to imitate a double backstab for x6 damage effectively]
- its defensive abilities give it increased survivability and flavour
It'd be an interesting kit without being too weak or too strong or standing on the other kits' toes. Anyone else think so?
In all honesty, I think that just delaying the multiplier bonuses (say, 5x at lvl 15 instead of 13 like the thief) would be the best thing for him.
edit: on another note it seems like shadowdancers aren't even supposed to set traps. To me it seems that they have given up far too much for being able to hide in plain sight, something that isn't hard to do past a certain point in the game by anyone.
but
Taking away 3x back stab mulit should be rewarded by allowing SD to set traps.
15 or 20 points isn't a big deal - if you spent them carefully you can do whatever you want with potions.
I do think though that 15 points to distribute each level is a little low. It makes me have to focus on nothing else than stealth, which is kind of a drag and forces me to keep another thief along.
My plan is to dual to Mage sometime in BG2. In the end he might not be the most OP build, but I still think it's interesting. Hiding instead of casting invisibility will pay off and be quite fun, I think.
While a normal mage would have to cast a spell to cancel another Mage's targeted spell, the shadowdancer just hides.
Shadowstep is BTW a really great way to stop enemy spellcasters or archers from wrecking havoc in the beginning of an ambush.
I haven't decided yet what I think of this delay. On one hand it's a good thing, to avoid the class being too powerful. On the other hand the delay doesn't really make sense. It would make sense if it only occured when having failed at hiding, and not if one voluntarily left stealth to, say, backstab.
Would this be changed to a normal backstab multiplier, this class would have to be nerfed in another area
1) less thieving ability points at character creation
2) less thieving ability points per level
3) no apparent bonus to stealth abilities at first level (very surprising)
It's very surprising to me that the Shadowdancer is so bad at keeping to the shadows, given the concept of the class. I would be perfectly happy if they made the Shadowdancer a little better at being a thief without changing the backstab score. Some people already feel the backstab is OP (link here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16967/shadowdancer-too-op).
Unless the AI is improved to use area spells against them, they'd be essentially invulnerable. Maybe it could be set to use a limited number of times a day.
[edit] Reports of the beta say there's a new delay added after leaving stealth. This would resolve some of the issue. It could still be useful for dual class.
But there really is no point doing that, he stops dead at level 9.
It's also worth getting to at least level 10 to get another use of Shadowstep. One could consider level 15 to get another use of shadowstep and additional skills points (also THAC0 if dual classing to Mage), but the worth of this is questionable.
Frankly I think the shadowdancers count down timer to re-enter stealth should be reduced as he/she levels. Available every 3 seconds at level 10. Every 1.5 seconds at level 20.
They could create a function to run on game load that would see if a character is "legal" and create an interface to let you tweak it to meet any rule changes... but even if that were not too big of a project to consider, it could break mods and EEKeeper hacks.
What we need is a time machine to tell Bioware during this game's creation it will be around for more than a decade, so try not to set so many things in stone, and save the art assets somewhere, for crying out loud.
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying.
This isn't that hard, folks