Because it's not a free invis potion or ring; it's unlimited. And it's instant, after the cool-down. A character with immunity to poison isn't less powerful than a character without immunity to poison simply because the non-immune character can drink an Antidote.
I say again: the shadowdancer is not intended for DPS. If you're trying to be as powerful as an Assassin with damage, you're using it wrong.
This isn't about being 'as powerful as an Assassin with damage', it is about having *any damage at all during BG1*. The fact that you, and the couple of apologists in this thread, return to conflating our argument with that strawman clearly demonstrates that you misunderstand our point of view entirely. The Shadowdancer, as currently stands in the beta build, is a great class during BG2, no questions at all. It gets a little more damage than straight meleeing from employing its patent trick, and gets to be tactical and maneuvery about it. During BG1, it gets to sneak around and occasionally hit like a fighter - once, maybe.
I get where you are coming from that the SD is meant to be a stiletto, not a sword. Fighting a mixed party? Sneak your SD to their rear and clobber their caster; you might not be able to kill him in one hit, but you can interrupt his spell and hurt him, make him act defensively, then fade back into the shadows, his efforts wasted. You can't do that in BG as it stands, as your chance to hit him as a low-level character, even with the +4 THAC0, is low, and even if you do hit him, you aren't going to hurt him enough to matter. Top that off with the fact that until lvl 4-6, your stealth is going to be so low that you have a pretty low chance of actually hiding again to avoid the retribution...
The reaction on this thread has been overwhelmingly negative, because you catered to a small minority which wanted the shadowdancer to be the ultimate thief in the end-game of the trilogy. You gave them steps in that direction, no doubt - but you did it by making the class useless in the only *released* iteration of the trilogy your company has had its hand in. Before, the SD was a pretty weak kit on its own merits, it was simply dual-class bait (fighter at 9 or 10 to get nasty thac0/apr to compliment backstabs, or mage at 5-7 to get the quasi-timestop and high stealth to dodge spells). I fully agree with the decision to expand the backstab multiplier to reward players that stick with the class past BG1 levels... but nullifying it at low end? Meh. Other options should be considered, maybe ones a little bit more irregular - reduced range of backstab weapons, or a reduced multiplier based on weapon (dagger for +1, shortsword for no mod, anything bigger -1 perhaps, that would even fit with the current multiplier schedule?) . Or, perhaps the most logical solution, and the one most easy for the average player to comprehend "The Shadowdancer has a -1 penalty to it's backstab multiplier." That table would play out as
Incidentally, when you have a beta feedback forum and your response to feedback you don't like is 'you can make a mod to fix it, stop bitching', that comes off pretty poorly.
– +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently. Backstab table: Level 1-8: x1 (no multiplier) Level 9-17: x2 Level 18-24: x3 Level 25+: x4 – May only distribute 20 skill points per level (30 at level 1) among thieving skills.
Edit: I stand corrected! It is in effect, see post below.
The bonus to stealth skills and the increase in skill points was really all that needed to be done. Those two changes would have brought about strong balance to the kit and made it equally appealing to the others. Weakening the BSM further really drags it right back down again, I like the kit even less now. ZERO backstabbing until level 9? It just takes all the fun away. I guess if you got the dagger of venom you could be an asset to the party in combat, even without the BSing. At level 10 they will have 45 (plus the 20 free points in stealth skills) more skill points to spend, so they could kind of fill a non-stealth thief role like locks or traps a lot sooner then they could have before.
I haven't played an SD so I can't claim any experience as to how well it does or does not work. I have, however, read a lot of the posts in this thread. That coupled with the gaming experience I do possess I offer you a solution to critique as you see fit.
It seems that the focus of the kit should be to keep true to its namesake and that seems to be a source of contention based on the most recent build. However, we mustn't forget that this is a CRPG so the class (whatever it is) must be combat focused.
Here is what I propose:
-12-15 points/level for thieving abilities -static point increase (probably 10-12) to Hide in Shadows (much like Rangers) -allow players to add to Hide in Shadows on top of the static increase -Max out Backstab at x3 using the following scale: Levels 1-5 x1 (no multiplier) Levels 6-9 x2 Levels 10+ x3 -Penalty to HIPS is equal to the difference between the character skill level and 100% + 10% -Scaling "cool down" for HIPS -Allow traps at a reduced rate (remember the character is still a thief) -at level 11 setting traps while hiding doesn't cause you to be seen -at level 15 attacking while hidden is like attacking out of improved invisibility -at level 20 HIPS cool down eliminated -at level 21 backstabs out of Hiding knock target prone (save requirement for balancing) -at level 24 attacking a prone target while Hiding is at x4 damage and you remain hidden
This is not intended in any way to be THE FINAL solution to the current build and how it will carry over into BG2EE. It is merely a brainstorm. The values of each can be adjusted to balance things out but it seems like these things would make use of Shadows to do unique things while remaining combat oriented and useful in the game.
I can buy that the Shadowdancer isn't supposed to be chaining backstabs. That would actually be tedious.
I take it, then, that the defining feature is that she can vanish if and when she gets attacked.
So you can either be a weaksauce warrior who can vanish when attacked, or you can roll a different class and be a real warrior who doesn't need to. Nice.
Here's what a level 1 Halfing Shadowdancer with 19 dexterity gets after putting all points into stealth:
Move Silently: 50 Hide in Shadows: 50 Open Locks: 35 Find Traps: 20 Pick Pockets: 35 Detect Illusion: 0
It's worth noting that a Human with 18 dexterity gets 65 fewer points:
Move Silently: 30 Hide in Shadows: 35 Open Locks: 25 Find Traps: 10 Pick Pockets: 25 Detect Illusion: 0
But let's use the best-case scenario. By leveling to 8 (the last level with a x1 multiplier), she would get 140 more points. I see this going one of two ways:
Stealthy (as long as it's dark) weaksauce warrior: Move Silently: 120 Hide in Shadows: 120 Open Locks: 35 Find Traps: 20 Pick Pockets: 35 Detect Illusion: 0
Lower-level thief minus the backstab: Move Silently: 50 Hide in Shadows: 50 Open Locks: 100 Find Traps: 85 Pick Pockets: 35 Detect Illusion: 0
@enneract I hate to tell you this, but your tone when dealing with my explanation doesn't make me inclined at all to compromise. That aspect is just a matter of dealing with people; if you can't talk reasonably without alienating the person you're talking to, don't expect to convince anyone to listen.
There won't be any more rebalancing of the kit before the patch is released. I don't expect everyone to be happy with the change, or even to be quiet about it. I do expect people to be more civil than this in their criticisms.
And since I might not have explained it well enough: I'm seeing a lot of out-of-context proposals, but not a lot of empirical evidence. If you want the kit to deal more damage with backstabs, try it out; change BACKSTAB.2da and see how it plays. If people experiment with changes, we'll be more inclined to listen.
I re-read your explanation of the Shadow Dancer kit on page 3 of this thread to try and understand what is being missed here. Personally, I feel I reasonably understand its strengths and weaknesses (again I have not played it in-game). Sneak in unseen, deal damage, avoid the repercussions by becoming hidden instantly, rinse, and repeat.
However, if I were to guess, it seems most people are getting hung up on the damage part of it since the backstab multiplier is reduced and pushed out. You also mentioned that for versatility players should look to the thief.
I think the arguments for more damage or more points and the confusion of how to properly use this class won’t go away without certain changes. Perhaps eliminating the remove traps/open locks skill and then adding a static point increase to Hide in Shadows, 10-15 points per level to spend on skills, no traps, a faster advancing backstab multiplier but maxing out at x3 (which is what I understand it is currently). I think getting to the max backstab quick, then adding in level based effects that tie in with the kit's main skill "Hide in Shadows" creates more flavor and a better experience.
I think those changes reinforce the nature of this kit holding true to your description. The other concerns about usefulness in BG2EE don't really apply here but it is understandable to be concerned about how the class will evolve in mid to end-game.
I think some things to consider as scaling abilities, level based abilities and even specific high level abilities would be; At a certain level Shadow Dancers wont trip traps, At a certain level attacking while being hidden is like attacking while using improved invisibility, conditional and/or control effects that require the Shadow Dancer to be hidden (such as slowing targets or knocking them prone) and maybe even dealing extra damage as a high level ability (i. e. dealing 4x damage to targets that were slowed or knocked prone by the shadow dancer).
I think the first few changes I mentioned would dissuade anyone from using this kit like a "regular" thief. And the changes would "guide" players to use the kit more "effectively" while reinforcing its "flavor".
That's just my take on it. Hopefully these ideas help continue a positive dialogue for suggestions and improvement.
@enneract I hate to tell you this, but your tone when dealing with my explanation doesn't make me inclined at all to compromise. That aspect is just a matter of dealing with people; if you can't talk reasonably without alienating the person you're talking to, don't expect to convince anyone to listen.
There won't be any more rebalancing of the kit before the patch is released. I don't expect everyone to be happy with the change, or even to be quiet about it. I do expect people to be more civil than this in their criticisms.
And since I might not have explained it well enough: I'm seeing a lot of out-of-context proposals, but not a lot of empirical evidence. If you want the kit to deal more damage with backstabs, try it out; change BACKSTAB.2da and see how it plays. If people experiment with changes, we'll be more inclined to listen.
Ok, well, if me calling you out on your 'sit down and shut up' comment is 'not being civil', I guess I'm not civil.
You've gotten in-context, reasoned, and empirically supported arguments from a number of different people in this thread. Admittedly, quite a bit of outlandish munchkinism too. Almost no one has been supportive of the changes, though. ...And apparently that is just incivility.
For what it is worth, I've done a complete playthrough of BG1 with a SD, both before and after this change (both iterations of the character with very high stats, 90 for before, 96 after). Before the change, the class was weak, but not dead weight. After the change, Garrick would have been more useful.
... He is terrible tank. He is terrible dps. He is terrible backstaber. ...
The terms Tank/DPS/Healer etc. are pervasive these days, thanks to the influence of MMORPG's. BG1 was published in a time when this was not so. While it is possible to achieve those roles in almost any RPG (PnP or CRPG), those aren't the only choices. I think this kind of thinking is limiting player options, strategies and imagination.
As the market narrows, so do the offerings: We all say that the newer games are lacking in depth of story, immersion, imagination and originality, but then we are upset when the games give us something new, they don't fit in the boxes we're used to.
BG1 (and DnD) does offer archetypes that one could classify as tank or a healer or a DPS. I'm glad that it also provides other options.
... He is terrible tank. He is terrible dps. He is terrible backstaber. ...
The terms Tank/DPS/Healer etc. are pervasive these days, thanks to the influence of MMORPG's. BG1 was published in a time when this was not so. While it is possible to achieve those roles in almost any RPG (PnP or CRPG), those aren't the only choices. I think this kind of thinking is limiting player options, strategies and imagination.
As the market narrows, so do the offerings: We all say that the newer games are lacking in depth of story, immersion, imagination and originality, but then we are upset when the games give us something new, they don't fit in the boxes we're used to.
BG1 (and DnD) does offer archetypes that one could classify as tank or a healer or a DPS. I'm glad that it also provides other options.
While what you said works well for Pen&Paper D&D it does not work for BG1, especially since combat is most of the content. This Shadowdancer would have many other options and roles in Pen&Paper, but in BG1 he has two: How good is he at disarming traps and opening locks? How good is he at combat?
Because it's not a free invis potion or ring; it's unlimited. And it's instant, after the cool-down. A character with immunity to poison isn't less powerful than a character without immunity to poison simply because the non-immune character can drink an Antidote.
I say again: the shadowdancer is not intended for DPS. If you're trying to be as powerful as an Assassin with damage, you're using it wrong.
The shadowdancer is not intended for Baldur's Gate, then, since (unfortunately or not, that is another question) beside tanking, damaging, and healing, there are pretty much no useful role in baldur's gate (Well, there is also boosting or debuffing the allies/enemies, but they basically come down to improving damage or improving tanking...)
Scouting is mostly useless in Baldur's Gate - even more in Baldur's Gate II with innate invis-seeing creatures like demons, and having a CHARNAME that is a glorified wizard's eye is far from the best thing ever.
Give the Shadow Dancer some utility, or increase its damage slightly (While having it still below a regular thief)
Note that NO ONE here wants the shadow dancer to deal the same damage as an assassin. You're mistaken here. We just want the Shadow Dancer to fit a rôle that is useful to the party.
As it is currently, its role is either - A glorified Dual-classed endless invis potion for a fighter, cleric or mage - A thief that hardly deals damage but can evade pretty much anything that can't see invis and comes at it.
Give it some mischievious abilities, or slightly increase its backstab damage to feel like it is at least CONTRIBUTING to the main activities of the Baldur's Gate saga, that is : Fighting and killing your ennemies.
As it is, I'm sorry - especially since you're the one that designed the transition from DnD 3 to Baldur's Gate of that kit - but it doesn't quite cut it.
The 3rd edition Shadow Dancer didn't have any Sneak Damage progression, but at least recieved a lot of nifty tricks to make up for it :
Shadow Illusion (Sp): When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability’s effect is identical to that of the arcane spell silent image and may be employed once per day.
Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion. If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
That, and quite a few other defensive feats that helped them a lot - (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, (Improved) Evasion, Defensive Roll..
Ok, I have never tried a SD but why is a scouting character of no use in BGEE? I am testing the beta with a F/T and with the shadow armor and the boots of stealth, he is great at scouting. Just wait for the night and everything is such a breeze. For BG2, a cloak of nondetection and you are set.
Ok, I have never tried a SD but why is a scouting character of no use in BGEE? I am testing the beta with a F/T and with the shadow armor and the boots of stealth, he is great at scouting. Just wait for the night and everything is such a breeze. For BG2, a cloak of nondetection and you are set.
There is indeed some use to a scouting character, but basically, a regular thief is just as good at scouting (Especially since there's a 1 round delay between the moment where you fail a hiding roll and the moment where you become visible, leaving you with more than enough time to go into a corner and hide again).
That, and that scouting thief is not just a scouter, it also has great value in backstabbing / setting traps / whatever a thief does.
All I see is a bunch of subjective opinions (about bonus content, mind you) being thrown at a developer's head in a condescending tone.
Let me put it this way: would you walk into a restaurant's kitchen and talk to the chef about his food the way you are talking to Dee right now?
Probably not, not even if you were a chef yourself (which you're not. Take a hint, guys). It's arrogant at best and plainly rude at worst.
You are mistaken here. I can pretty much assure you, without putting much thought into it; that everyone here respects dee, and likes what he's been doing. We're just here to provide feedback about something we think could be improved... that's pretty much the point of a beta.
If that Chief you're talking about asked you to taste his food before opening his restaurant to ensure that everything tastes great, and you find that one of his dishes is missing salt, wouldn't you tell him ?
That's what we're doing, and that doesn't mean we don't respect Dee.
I don't think anyone here harbors any disrespect, we're being pretty civil as far as I can see, and there have been many, many elaborate and insightful posts from both theoretic and practical point of view regarding the problems of the SD.
I have to agree with @Kilivitz that this is getting a little out of hand. While I too think that the changes to the Shadowdancer were taken a little too far, I don't think overflowing this thread with posts about it (albeit well-written and factual posts) will result in any solution.
I'm sure @Dee already has enough to do, and making him read through an excessive amount of posts about the same subject isn't going to make anyone any happier.
I'm confused. As has already been pointed out, HIPS (with sufficient stealth) + non-detection (via a cloak or whatever) allows the SD to stay in stealth the entire game, effectively breaking the game with it's OP-ness.
So why are people talking about how underpowered the class is / will be?
I'm confused. As has already been pointed out, HIPS (with sufficient stealth) + non-detection (via a cloak or whatever) allows the SD to stay in stealth the entire game, effectively breaking the game with it's OP-ness.
So why are people talking about how underpowered the class is / will be?
Did I miss something?
It's no longer the case, since right after attacking, there is now a 1 round cooldown before you can enter stealth again, if I'm not mistaken. Hence, your HIPSing character can die/take damage during that cooldown (even if it's highly unlikely....)
I'm confused. As has already been pointed out, HIPS (with sufficient stealth) + non-detection (via a cloak or whatever) allows the SD to stay in stealth the entire game, effectively breaking the game with it's OP-ness.
So why are people talking about how underpowered the class is / will be?
Did I miss something?
It's no longer the case, since right after attacking, there is now a 1 round cooldown before you can enter stealth again, if I'm not mistaken. Hence, your HIPSing character can die/take damage during that cooldown (even if it's highly unlikely....)
So the shadowdancer is the way to go if you want to do a no kill run trough BG (I think you have only have to kill the big S to complete the last chapter). Only use hiding and charming (maybe go duo with an illusionist)
I wouldn't say it's "highly unlikely" for the Shadowdancer to die in that time, all things considered. An unlucky roll or an area of effect spell or a trap can easily murder a Shadowdancer, stealth or no. It seems to me that the Shadowdancer is only "overpowered" when the player has significant foreknowledge, which is true for any class.
That said, the Shadowdancer has plenty of ways to contribute at low levels - specifically, using bows while they wait for their HiS to get high enough. They're weak early and insanely powerful later, but so are monks. I don't see the problem.
Because it's not a free invis potion or ring; it's unlimited. And it's instant, after the cool-down. A character with immunity to poison isn't less powerful than a character without immunity to poison simply because the non-immune character can drink an Antidote.
I say again: the shadowdancer is not intended for DPS. If you're trying to be as powerful as an Assassin with damage, you're using it wrong.
This is the point I was trying to make on the first page of this thread. The luxury of not having to equip your thief with rings of invis, potions, etc, makes this class totally worth it if sneaking around a dungeon is *your preferred style of play*.
This Shadowdancer would have many other options and roles in Pen&Paper, but in BG1 he has two: How good is he at disarming traps and opening locks? How good is he at combat?
I haven't played one in BG, so this is all speculation, but... Many fights in BG depend on tactical positioning. Any game system is a collection of a very simple set of rules and increasingly complicated ways to break those rules. (THAC0 is the simple rule, for example, and hiding to overcome it is a way to break it.) Shadowdancer is designed to break tactical positioning rules. Surely, one can come up with something more imaginative than backstabbing enemies when using this rule-breaking rule.
Here's what a level 1 Halfing Shadowdancer with 19 dexterity gets after putting all points into stealth:
Move Silently: 50 Hide in Shadows: 50 Open Locks: 35 Find Traps: 20 Pick Pockets: 35 Detect Illusion: 0
It's worth noting that a Human with 18 dexterity gets 65 fewer points:
Move Silently: 30 Hide in Shadows: 35 Open Locks: 25 Find Traps: 10 Pick Pockets: 25 Detect Illusion: 0
Actually if you follow through with the character creation screen (and not just the thieving skill distribution screen) you'll note that it would actually end up as.
Move Silently: 60 Hide in Shadows: 60 Open Locks: 35 Find Traps: 20 Pick Pockets: 35 Detect Illusion: 0
The bonus is currently being applied after not before your distribution screen. So it would actually be 85 fewer points.
i dont know maybe its just me but im playing a shadow dancer and am having fun doing it....aint that what counts when all is said and done.Im still getting use to the his cool down and im learning to use f6 to his instead of hitting the button manually.
Semi on topic (stealth is a big part of the shadowdancer after all) but does anyone know what the sunlight penalty is for stealth. Also what is the file that governs it?
Semi on topic (stealth is a big part of the shadowdancer after all) but does anyone know what the sunlight penalty is for stealth. Also what is the file that governs it?
I'm quite sure your check is halved when in broad daylight. I haven't seen any conclusive proof of that though; only read convincing opinions.
Actually if you follow through with the character creation screen (and not just the thieving skill distribution screen) you'll note that it would actually end up as.
Move Silently: 60 Hide in Shadows: 60 Open Locks: 35 Find Traps: 20 Pick Pockets: 35 Detect Illusion: 0
The bonus is currently being applied after not before your distribution screen. So it would actually be 85 fewer points.
I don't know what's going on here, but I grabbed it from the character stats summary at the end of character creation using the beta client. :-/
Comments
I get where you are coming from that the SD is meant to be a stiletto, not a sword. Fighting a mixed party? Sneak your SD to their rear and clobber their caster; you might not be able to kill him in one hit, but you can interrupt his spell and hurt him, make him act defensively, then fade back into the shadows, his efforts wasted. You can't do that in BG as it stands, as your chance to hit him as a low-level character, even with the +4 THAC0, is low, and even if you do hit him, you aren't going to hurt him enough to matter. Top that off with the fact that until lvl 4-6, your stealth is going to be so low that you have a pretty low chance of actually hiding again to avoid the retribution...
The reaction on this thread has been overwhelmingly negative, because you catered to a small minority which wanted the shadowdancer to be the ultimate thief in the end-game of the trilogy. You gave them steps in that direction, no doubt - but you did it by making the class useless in the only *released* iteration of the trilogy your company has had its hand in. Before, the SD was a pretty weak kit on its own merits, it was simply dual-class bait (fighter at 9 or 10 to get nasty thac0/apr to compliment backstabs, or mage at 5-7 to get the quasi-timestop and high stealth to dodge spells). I fully agree with the decision to expand the backstab multiplier to reward players that stick with the class past BG1 levels... but nullifying it at low end? Meh. Other options should be considered, maybe ones a little bit more irregular - reduced range of backstab weapons, or a reduced multiplier based on weapon (dagger for +1, shortsword for no mod, anything bigger -1 perhaps, that would even fit with the current multiplier schedule?) . Or, perhaps the most logical solution, and the one most easy for the average player to comprehend "The Shadowdancer has a -1 penalty to it's backstab multiplier." That table would play out as
Level 1-4 - x1 (no multiplier)
Level 5-8 - x2
Level 9-12 - x3
Level 13+ - x4
Incidentally, when you have a beta feedback forum and your response to feedback you don't like is 'you can make a mod to fix it, stop bitching', that comes off pretty poorly.
I dunno.
It seems that the focus of the kit should be to keep true to its namesake and that seems to be a source of contention based on the most recent build. However, we mustn't forget that this is a CRPG so the class (whatever it is) must be combat focused.
Here is what I propose:
-12-15 points/level for thieving abilities
-static point increase (probably 10-12) to Hide in Shadows (much like Rangers)
-allow players to add to Hide in Shadows on top of the static increase
-Max out Backstab at x3 using the following scale:
Levels 1-5 x1 (no multiplier)
Levels 6-9 x2
Levels 10+ x3
-Penalty to HIPS is equal to the difference between the character skill level and 100% + 10%
-Scaling "cool down" for HIPS
-Allow traps at a reduced rate (remember the character is still a thief)
-at level 11 setting traps while hiding doesn't cause you to be seen
-at level 15 attacking while hidden is like attacking out of improved invisibility
-at level 20 HIPS cool down eliminated
-at level 21 backstabs out of Hiding knock target prone (save requirement for balancing)
-at level 24 attacking a prone target while Hiding is at x4 damage and you remain hidden
This is not intended in any way to be THE FINAL solution to the current build and how it will carry over into BG2EE. It is merely a brainstorm. The values of each can be adjusted to balance things out but it seems like these things would make use of Shadows to do unique things while remaining combat oriented and useful in the game.
I take it, then, that the defining feature is that she can vanish if and when she gets attacked.
So you can either be a weaksauce warrior who can vanish when attacked, or you can roll a different class and be a real warrior who doesn't need to. Nice.
Here's what a level 1 Halfing Shadowdancer with 19 dexterity gets after putting all points into stealth:
Move Silently: 50
Hide in Shadows: 50
Open Locks: 35
Find Traps: 20
Pick Pockets: 35
Detect Illusion: 0
It's worth noting that a Human with 18 dexterity gets 65 fewer points:
Move Silently: 30
Hide in Shadows: 35
Open Locks: 25
Find Traps: 10
Pick Pockets: 25
Detect Illusion: 0
But let's use the best-case scenario. By leveling to 8 (the last level with a x1 multiplier), she would get 140 more points. I see this going one of two ways:
Stealthy (as long as it's dark) weaksauce warrior:
Move Silently: 120
Hide in Shadows: 120
Open Locks: 35
Find Traps: 20
Pick Pockets: 35
Detect Illusion: 0
Lower-level thief minus the backstab:
Move Silently: 50
Hide in Shadows: 50
Open Locks: 100
Find Traps: 85
Pick Pockets: 35
Detect Illusion: 0
I hate to tell you this, but your tone when dealing with my explanation doesn't make me inclined at all to compromise. That aspect is just a matter of dealing with people; if you can't talk reasonably without alienating the person you're talking to, don't expect to convince anyone to listen.
There won't be any more rebalancing of the kit before the patch is released. I don't expect everyone to be happy with the change, or even to be quiet about it. I do expect people to be more civil than this in their criticisms.
And since I might not have explained it well enough: I'm seeing a lot of out-of-context proposals, but not a lot of empirical evidence. If you want the kit to deal more damage with backstabs, try it out; change BACKSTAB.2da and see how it plays. If people experiment with changes, we'll be more inclined to listen.
However, if I were to guess, it seems most people are getting hung up on the damage part of it since the backstab multiplier is reduced and pushed out. You also mentioned that for versatility players should look to the thief.
I think the arguments for more damage or more points and the confusion of how to properly use this class won’t go away without certain changes. Perhaps eliminating the remove traps/open locks skill and then adding a static point increase to Hide in Shadows, 10-15 points per level to spend on skills, no traps, a faster advancing backstab multiplier but maxing out at x3 (which is what I understand it is currently). I think getting to the max backstab quick, then adding in level based effects that tie in with the kit's main skill "Hide in Shadows" creates more flavor and a better experience.
I think those changes reinforce the nature of this kit holding true to your description. The other concerns about usefulness in BG2EE don't really apply here but it is understandable to be concerned about how the class will evolve in mid to end-game.
I think some things to consider as scaling abilities, level based abilities and even specific high level abilities would be; At a certain level Shadow Dancers wont trip traps, At a certain level attacking while being hidden is like attacking while using improved invisibility, conditional and/or control effects that require the Shadow Dancer to be hidden (such as slowing targets or knocking them prone) and maybe even dealing extra damage as a high level ability (i. e. dealing 4x damage to targets that were slowed or knocked prone by the shadow dancer).
I think the first few changes I mentioned would dissuade anyone from using this kit like a "regular" thief. And the changes would "guide" players to use the kit more "effectively" while reinforcing its "flavor".
That's just my take on it. Hopefully these ideas help continue a positive dialogue for suggestions and improvement.
Thanks.
You've gotten in-context, reasoned, and empirically supported arguments from a number of different people in this thread. Admittedly, quite a bit of outlandish munchkinism too. Almost no one has been supportive of the changes, though. ...And apparently that is just incivility.
For what it is worth, I've done a complete playthrough of BG1 with a SD, both before and after this change (both iterations of the character with very high stats, 90 for before, 96 after). Before the change, the class was weak, but not dead weight. After the change, Garrick would have been more useful.
As the market narrows, so do the offerings: We all say that the newer games are lacking in depth of story, immersion, imagination and originality, but then we are upset when the games give us something new, they don't fit in the boxes we're used to.
BG1 (and DnD) does offer archetypes that one could classify as tank or a healer or a DPS. I'm glad that it also provides other options.
Scouting is mostly useless in Baldur's Gate - even more in Baldur's Gate II with innate invis-seeing creatures like demons, and having a CHARNAME that is a glorified wizard's eye is far from the best thing ever.
Give the Shadow Dancer some utility, or increase its damage slightly (While having it still below a regular thief)
Note that NO ONE here wants the shadow dancer to deal the same damage as an assassin. You're mistaken here. We just want the Shadow Dancer to fit a rôle that is useful to the party.
As it is currently, its role is either
- A glorified Dual-classed endless invis potion for a fighter, cleric or mage
- A thief that hardly deals damage but can evade pretty much anything that can't see invis and comes at it.
Give it some mischievious abilities, or slightly increase its backstab damage to feel like it is at least CONTRIBUTING to the main activities of the Baldur's Gate saga, that is : Fighting and killing your ennemies.
As it is, I'm sorry - especially since you're the one that designed the transition from DnD 3 to Baldur's Gate of that kit - but it doesn't quite cut it.
The 3rd edition Shadow Dancer didn't have any Sneak Damage progression, but at least recieved a lot of nifty tricks to make up for it :
Shadow Illusion (Sp): When a shadowdancer reaches 3rd level, she can create visual illusions. This ability’s effect is identical to that of the arcane spell silent image and may be employed once per day.
Summon Shadow (Su): At 3rd level, a shadowdancer can summon a shadow, an undead shade. Unlike a normal shadow, this shadow’s alignment matches that of the shadowdancer, and the creature cannot create spawn. The summoned shadow cannot be turned, rebuked, or commanded by any third party. This shadow serves as a companion to the shadowdancer and can communicate intelligibly with the shadowdancer. Every third level gained by the shadowdancer adds +2 HD (and the requisite base attack and base save bonus increases) to her shadow companion.
If a shadow companion is destroyed, or the shadowdancer chooses to dismiss it, the shadowdancer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude save. If the saving throw fails, the shadowdancer loses 200 experience points per shadowdancer level. A successful saving throw reduces the loss by half, to 100 XP per prestige class level. The shadowdancer’s XP total can never go below 0 as the result of a shadow’s dismissal or destruction. A destroyed or dismissed shadow companion cannot be replaced for 30 days.
That, and quite a few other defensive feats that helped them a lot - (Improved) Uncanny Dodge, (Improved) Evasion, Defensive Roll..
That, and that scouting thief is not just a scouter, it also has great value in backstabbing / setting traps / whatever a thief does.
All I see is a bunch of subjective opinions (about bonus content, mind you) being thrown at a developer's head in a condescending tone.
Let me put it this way: would you walk into a restaurant's kitchen and talk to the chef about his food the way you are talking to Dee right now?
Probably not, not even if you were a chef yourself (which you're not. Take a hint, guys). It's arrogant at best and plainly rude at worst.
I can pretty much assure you, without putting much thought into it; that everyone here respects dee, and likes what he's been doing.
We're just here to provide feedback about something we think could be improved... that's pretty much the point of a beta.
If that Chief you're talking about asked you to taste his food before opening his restaurant to ensure that everything tastes great, and you find that one of his dishes is missing salt, wouldn't you tell him ?
That's what we're doing, and that doesn't mean we don't respect Dee.
Quite the opposite, actually.
I'm sure @Dee already has enough to do, and making him read through an excessive amount of posts about the same subject isn't going to make anyone any happier.
So why are people talking about how underpowered the class is / will be?
Did I miss something?
Hence, your HIPSing character can die/take damage during that cooldown (even if it's highly unlikely....)
That said, the Shadowdancer has plenty of ways to contribute at low levels - specifically, using bows while they wait for their HiS to get high enough. They're weak early and insanely powerful later, but so are monks. I don't see the problem.
(Rule-breaking rule. Right. :-p )
Move Silently: 60
Hide in Shadows: 60
Open Locks: 35
Find Traps: 20
Pick Pockets: 35
Detect Illusion: 0
The bonus is currently being applied after not before your distribution screen. So it would actually be 85 fewer points.