Using a Shadowdancer in Black Pits. Seems pretty good. Although, I'm used to having an Assassin, so sometimes I click the Abilities button looking for Poison Weapon, only to be super disappointed.
While the Shadowdancer can enter stealth mode in more situations (e.g. combat), they are likely to be inferior at entering stealth mode compared to a thief of equal level. The reasons are: 1) less thieving ability points at character creation 2) less thieving ability points per level 3) no apparent bonus to stealth abilities at first level (very surprising)
It's very surprising to me that the Shadowdancer is so bad at keeping to the shadows, given the concept of the class. I would be perfectly happy if they made the Shadowdancer a little better at being a thief without changing the backstab score. Some people already feel the backstab is OP (link here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/16967/shadowdancer-too-op).
This is an excellent point, a first level bonus of +15% to Hide in Shadows not only seems logical, but it would bring the kit closer to balance with it's current liabilities.
To be an all powerful shadow dancer with 200% (full proof) hiding and sneaking, you need to gain about 20 levels and put everything into just those two skills. This falls in line with the bounty hunter reaching his greatest trap at level 21 and the assassin getting their x7BS at 21. The big difference here is that those kits along with the swashbuckler are better combat contributors and they have a more diversified skill set throughout their careers. Shadow dancers are very much a one trick pony.
If you aren't going to multi-class, there is no good reason to take a shadow dancer.
EDIT: Thinking about it a little more, they should grants a minimum of +15% to both stealth skills at character generation, and making that bonus a 20% or even a 25% would bring about balance.
Yep. A few of us are pulling a bit of a late one to make sure it's chock full of goodies [that work the way we want them to] first, but it should be up pretty soon.
– +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently. Backstab table: Level 1-8: x1 (no multiplier) Level 9-17: x2 Level 18-24: x3 Level 25+: x4 – May only distribute 20 skill points per level (30 at level 1) among thieving skills.
Edit: I stand corrected! It is in effect, see post below.
– +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently. Backstab table: Level 1-8: x1 (no multiplier) Level 9-17: x2 Level 18-24: x3 Level 25+: x4 – May only distribute 20 skill points per level (30 at level 1) among thieving skills.
Edit: I stand corrected! It is in effect, see post below.
Seriously, this breaks the class for the majority of the game. ALL of BG1 they are more or less pointless, and most of BG2.. they would only become useful in TOB, by which time everything important is typically immune to backstab.
Until level 9, every other thief kit is better at everything than the SD with this change. The only thing you would have going for you is marginally better melee ability than a mage. It needs to have at least an x2 multi to start with, if just to give HIPS a point.
If the point here is to make the SD more than dual-class bait, consider THAC0 bonuses (backstabs hit more often!), giving it the ability to bypass backstab immunity at some point (lvl 20?), and/or just disallowing dual classing for this kit.
"The thing is, the Shadowdancer isn't a backstabber. The kit is more about tactical movement and ducking away from combat than it is about dealing devastating attacks. We don't want the Shadowdancer to be a replacement for the Assassin."
Pretty cool that a few discussions have resulted in real (and frankly needed) changes to the kit. SD looks much more usable now to me, though I'm sure people will be disappointed about the x1 multiplier lvl1-8. I think being able to attack with +4 to hit every round is still quite a decent bonus for BG1 though, not to mention the defensive benefits. x4 multiplier will make Assassination HLA better than if they'd stuck with x3. Most importantly, skillpoints!
I'll start a BG:EE game with one and give feedback.
Really nice changes. I like how the levels required make good sense too. You will get x2 backstab late in BG1, x2-3 during SoA, and then finally x4 backstab very early in ToB.
I really like the tweaks except the no backstab until level 9 part. For me it's a deal breaker.
I agree. It doesn't make sense and seems like only an attempt to put weight on "backstabbing isn't the Shadowdancer's focus", which is OK but didn't need to be nerfed more than it was already (maxing at level 9).
Mm yeah it never crossed my mind really to start off at x1, and as someone who likes a bit of backstabbing now and then it's a bit rough but, I'm open-minded, I get why they added it. Being able to straight away gain multiple opportunities per fight to backstab when you won't have invisibility potions, boots of speed, enemies have low HP etc., it's pretty powerful, albeit limited by stealth (which SD gets a boost in now and potentially more points to spend in it too). Boots of stealth are easy to obtain very early on. But yeah let's see. Just beat Tarnesh solo at the first attempt which is always a good way to start a run.
"The thing is, the Shadowdancer isn't a backstabber. The kit is more about tactical movement and ducking away from combat than it is about dealing devastating attacks. We don't want the Shadowdancer to be a replacement for the Assassin."
a X2-X3 backstab isnt a 'devastating attack'. It is a slightly harder than normal attack.
So as it stands, you HIPS, get to 'move tactically' and... then what?
I'm quoting you because you said it, but I guess this comment is directed more at @Dee
If this is going to stand, at least consider getting x2 at 7 instead of 9. That would make dualing to fighter in BG viable.
So as it stands, you HIPS, get to 'move tactically' and... then what?
Get in an archer's face so he doesn't pepper your party with poisoned projectiles? Grab a mage's attention and then hide to force him to waste his big opening spell? Draw a portion of the enemy group away so that your party can divide and conquer? Shadowstep so you're on the opposite side of a Skull Trap from the enemies and lure them in?
So as it stands, you HIPS, get to 'move tactically' and... then what?
Get in an archer's face so he doesn't pepper your party with poisoned projectiles? Grab a mage's attention and then hide to force him to waste his big opening spell? Draw a portion of the enemy group away so that your party can divide and conquer? Shadowstep so you're on the opposite side of a Skull Trap from the enemies and lure them in?
Yes, there are still many good ways to use both Hide in Plain Sight and Shadowstep. Although Shadowstep does trigger traps.
So as it stands, you HIPS, get to 'move tactically' and... then what?
Get in an archer's face so he doesn't pepper your party with poisoned projectiles? Grab a mage's attention and then hide to force him to waste his big opening spell? Draw a portion of the enemy group away so that your party can divide and conquer? Shadowstep so you're on the opposite side of a Skull Trap from the enemies and lure them in?
Yes, there are still many good ways to use both Hide in Plain Sight and Shadowstep. Although Shadowstep does trigger traps.
Good catch; my thinking was that Shadowstep gives you the necessary time to go *around* the trap while still being able to lead the enemy into it (normally you'd be kiting them and having to skirt the radius hoping they'd wander in).
So as it stands, you HIPS, get to 'move tactically' and... then what?
Get in an archer's face so he doesn't pepper your party with poisoned projectiles? Grab a mage's attention and then hide to force him to waste his big opening spell? Draw a portion of the enemy group away so that your party can divide and conquer? Shadowstep so you're on the opposite side of a Skull Trap from the enemies and lure them in?
Yes, there are still many good ways to use both Hide in Plain Sight and Shadowstep. Although Shadowstep does trigger traps.
Good catch; my thinking was that Shadowstep gives you the necessary time to go *around* the trap while still being able to lead the enemy into it (normally you'd be kiting them and having to skirt the radius hoping they'd wander in).
Ah, true, walking around the trap would work. Still, given the description of the shadowdancer and shadowstep I feel that shadowstep shouldn't trigger traps.
Triggering for example a glyph trap while shadowstepping makes the glyph home on you when shadowstep has expired.
It's been fun. Being able to stealth every round means that I'm generally hitting each time with a thac0 of 10, and as a result I've been racking up kills. With Shadowstep you can also imitate a double attack from stealth for good damage, at level 9 it will be almost like a x4 backstab effectively.
SD is also good at controlling enemies through baiting and luring using hide n plain sight, it opens up quite a lot of tactics while at the same time being quite low risk for the SD. I think in this regard it's one of the more unique kits.
The skillpoints increase means there are enough points to just barely pass as the party's sole trap/locksmith, though I'd recommend to others to just stick with stealth and remove traps and get a mage with Knock for the locks, I think that's more effective. Otherwise you'll need potions for the tougher locks and traps.
You should instead go from x2 to x4, with a lower progression similar to what is available to the stalker to slightly improve the damage of shadowdancers at low levels IE : evel 1-7: x2 Level 9-17: x3 Level 18+: x4
Comments
How do I know this? Hmmmmm....
To be an all powerful shadow dancer with 200% (full proof) hiding and sneaking, you need to gain about 20 levels and put everything into just those two skills. This falls in line with the bounty hunter reaching his greatest trap at level 21 and the assassin getting their x7BS at 21. The big difference here is that those kits along with the swashbuckler are better combat contributors and they have a more diversified skill set throughout their careers. Shadow dancers are very much a one trick pony.
If you aren't going to multi-class, there is no good reason to take a shadow dancer.
EDIT: Thinking about it a little more, they should grants a minimum of +15% to both stealth skills at character generation, and making that bonus a 20% or even a 25% would bring about balance.
I'm trying to get Near Infinity to work so I can learn more about various things...
– +10% bonus to Hide in Shadows and Move Silently.
Backstab table:
Level 1-8: x1 (no multiplier)
Level 9-17: x2
Level 18-24: x3
Level 25+: x4
– May only distribute 20 skill points per level (30 at level 1) among thieving skills.
Edit: I stand corrected! It is in effect, see post below.
Until level 9, every other thief kit is better at everything than the SD with this change. The only thing you would have going for you is marginally better melee ability than a mage. It needs to have at least an x2 multi to start with, if just to give HIPS a point.
If the point here is to make the SD more than dual-class bait, consider THAC0 bonuses (backstabs hit more often!), giving it the ability to bypass backstab immunity at some point (lvl 20?), and/or just disallowing dual classing for this kit.
"The thing is, the Shadowdancer isn't a backstabber. The kit is more about tactical movement and ducking away from combat than it is about dealing devastating attacks. We don't want the Shadowdancer to be a replacement for the Assassin."
I'll start a BG:EE game with one and give feedback.
Almost.
So as it stands, you HIPS, get to 'move tactically' and... then what?
I'm quoting you because you said it, but I guess this comment is directed more at @Dee
If this is going to stand, at least consider getting x2 at 7 instead of 9. That would make dualing to fighter in BG viable.
Triggering for example a glyph trap while shadowstepping makes the glyph home on you when shadowstep has expired.
Now if only we could get the Wizard Slayer tweaked....that class has sure had its share of feature request threads...
It's been fun. Being able to stealth every round means that I'm generally hitting each time with a thac0 of 10, and as a result I've been racking up kills. With Shadowstep you can also imitate a double attack from stealth for good damage, at level 9 it will be almost like a x4 backstab effectively.
SD is also good at controlling enemies through baiting and luring using hide n plain sight, it opens up quite a lot of tactics while at the same time being quite low risk for the SD. I think in this regard it's one of the more unique kits.
The skillpoints increase means there are enough points to just barely pass as the party's sole trap/locksmith, though I'd recommend to others to just stick with stealth and remove traps and get a mage with Knock for the locks, I think that's more effective. Otherwise you'll need potions for the tougher locks and traps.
Thumbs up from me so far.
IE :
evel 1-7: x2
Level 9-17: x3
Level 18+: x4