Well yeah, that's what I thought too. I would hide, whack them with Varscona, step back and throw a couple of darts (wounding/stunning if needed) and hide again. Gets you through just fine until you get a backstab multiplier. I suppose the point people were making was that if you have a character than has a very good ability to hide, then it should be a good backstabber because that's the point of hiding. I think that's a conceptual difference of opinion rather than a balance one though, I didn't find the beta SD to be weak in BG:EE and I don't see any of the suggestions as addressing potential BG2:EE weakness other than improving the backstab multiplier (will that be enough? Let's see). I think the issue of backstabbing took over from maybe more interesting ideas to flesh out the kit in other ways and give other kinds of benefits, though I don't know how feasible other additions would be.
The not-a-backstabber argument would have been more compelling to me if the SD didn't get to backstab at all (though I definitely would like to see some more tricks than just HiPS and ST for the SD at later levels in that case!). The current not-a-backstabber-until-BG2 implementation is just a bit strange.
But honestly I feel people shouldn't get too hung up over backstab multipliers. With the 2da externalization it's pretty much trivial to change it to your liking. And hopefully the look in the kitchen people are getting here has shown that there is no ultimate correct implementation.
It seems Dee is trying out different things with the SD at the moment, so we'll see what he brews up in the end!
The fact that he is also toying with the vanilla thief and the assassin gives me hope for other not-so-great kits, like the wizard slayer and the shapeshifter.
It seems Dee is trying out different things with the SD at the moment, so we'll see what he brews up in the end!
The fact that he is also toying with the vanilla thief and the assassin gives me hope for other not-so-great kits, like the wizard slayer and the shapeshifter.
Yeah, I've tried out a lot of different Shapeshifter mods and they each had some kind of fault
The not-a-backstabber argument would have been more compelling to me if the SD didn't get to backstab at all (though I definitely would like to see some more tricks than just HiPS and ST for the SD at later levels in that case!). The current not-a-backstabber-until-BG2 implementation is just a bit strange.
But honestly I feel people shouldn't get too hung up over backstab multipliers. With the 2da externalization it's pretty much trivial to change it to your liking. And hopefully the look in the kitchen people are getting here has shown that there is no ultimate correct implementation.
It seems Dee is trying out different things with the SD at the moment, so we'll see what he brews up in the end!
The fact that he is also toying with the vanilla thief and the assassin gives me hope for other not-so-great kits, like the wizard slayer and the shapeshifter.
Well, the shapeshifter isn't all that bad (It's still a full druid), it's just that it loses quite a bit of its strength by the end of BG2 and in ToB.
Why does it matter if class x and kit y are not mathematically as efficient as another? If they can perform within an acceptable percentile of each other and the game remains fun and true to its core then surely it is serving the purpose? Not every class/kit combo of worth can be measured by the damage it does or is capable of mitigating. Isn't this kit an example of that? Perspective is a good thing - fun and (re)discovery of a classic with all the extra kits offered should surely be enough?
Why does it matter if class x and kit y are not mathematically as efficient as another? If they can perform within an acceptable percentile of each other and the game remains fun and true to its core then surely it is serving the purpose? Not every class/kit combo of worth can be measured by the damage it does or is capable of mitigating. Isn't this kit an example of that? Perspective is a good thing - fun and (re)discovery of a classic with all the extra kits offered should surely be enough?
Indeed. The game is exactly as balanced as you make it yourself. Alot of the comparisons made here are made from a PvP standpoint, which just isn't very applicable to the Baldur's Gate series.
Still, Wizard Slayer needs some work, but that's for another thread.
Well, I started to play Beta using Shadowdancer and I was lucky to have 5 lvl when the "ThiefTweaks_v1" comes. Here are my thoughts: - for single low enemy numbers, SD is a killing machine even with BSx1: hit once, run away, hide, repeat until everyone will be dead and in case of danger use "SD Time Stop". No, you don't always have Warrior with Invisible Potions/Spells and you don't use 10 Invisible Potions/Spells on each fight. SD Hide in Shadow is very powerful when combined with for eg: protection potions 100% electricity - the last fight of "Cloakwood Mines" can be much easier when "Lighting" spell will kill most of the guards instead of you :-]
- for important fights when Warrior/Thief would use "Invisible Potions/Spells" - good luck when you will kill one enemy mage and you will become target for everyone else. SD can "HiS" immediately or use "SD Time Stop" to avoid enemy spells. Everything is for free with SD. It really affected my style of play - I don't use my SD as a main DPS dealer but as a support for Warrior/Cleric with maxed AC. And she can Heal and Cure Poison! Very useful because again, "SD Time Stop" makes every SD spells instant everywhere at the screen.
- Indeed SD is behind in lock-pick, steel and detect traps but there must be any penalty for his new powers. You can use potions/scrolls/spells to deal with that.
- New SD Tweaks (BSx2 at level 5): most of enemy become stronger after level 4, this change is very nice. But then, the only penalty for SD are missing traps and very low lock-pick, steel and detect traps. For me it was very lite to sacrifice for all powerful SD skills. With SD BS set to "x2" why I would wanted to use normal Thief?
@Infiltrator I think you are missing the point. It is NOT supposed to be played like any other thief kit. It's unique ability allows it to do otherwise. I think trying to pound this square peg into that round hole is much too narrow minded an exercise. I'm not saying it's better or worse than any other kit (and my guess is thats a good thing) just that it's fundamentally different. Yes the mechanics are the same, but it's the use of those mechanics that can be so different! And I think fretting over back stab power is pretty petty in the context of all the other things the kit can do.
If you are hell bent on combat power and DPS, use the assassin. That's what its designed for...
Just try using the HiPS ability for things other than backstabbing. I'm sure it's useful - enough so that the change in backstab power isn't a huge issue...
@jethro fundamentally different? Are we talking about the same class/kit here? I doubt we are, since you appear to be thinking the sd wildly differs from the thief. Is that the point I'm missing?
If so, a lot of others seem to also be missing that point unless you failed to notice.. but please elaborate more on how exactly the core, fundamental gameplay differs, and how is backstab not the primary aspect of a class that can execute it more than anyone else, especially early on when other thieves don't have their own chain-stab items?
how is backstab not the primary aspect of a class that can execute it more than anyone else, especially early on when other thieves don't have their own chain-stab items?
Call me crazy, but I thought hiding in plain sight was the primary aspect of the class, something which has a variety of uses, one of which is setting up backstabs.
This thread makes me want to break the Shadowdancer. I think my eyes went cross from going through all that damage multipliers and HIPS and DPS' and on and on. I don't want to play spreadsheet anymore.
.. but please elaborate more on how exactly the core, fundamental gameplay differs, and how is backstab not the primary aspect of a class that can execute it more than anyone else, especially early on when other thieves don't have their own chain-stab items?
Simple, if you're not stabbing evet time you come out of stealth you're wasting its potential Evading damage alone doesn't make an interesting class.
What makes the Shadow Dancer so interesting is that it enables, even encourages, the player to use stealth in a way that isn't only concentrated on backstabbing offensively. That is a fundamental change in the way to play a thief. It doesn't mean you cant use other thieves in a similar fashion, or use the Shadow Dancer like any other thief, but the design of the Shadow Dancer optimizes a new way of play. And it seems like if you want to get the full value of the kit, you should explore the new style.
If you don't want to do that, fine. Lament the loss of your precious backstab and how the great thief kit was made mundane. But that doesn't mean the kit is broken or that it doesn't offer a clear value to gameplay. If all anyone wanted was insane damage and was happy to use invisibility potions then a fighter or F/T is way better. But the Shadow Dancer can provide excellent offensive support, even without high damage dealing backstabs. Of course to get the most out of it you have to play it in a new way...which to you might not be interesting, but then chain-stabbing isn't especially interesting to me either...
I still don't see what's fundamentally different. Do you know what fundamentally means? Two fundamentally different classes are a fighter and a mage, not a thief and a shadowdancer. The latter are pretty similar as the core concepts are the same.
The kit *favors* a certain thief sub play-style and adds flavor abilities to him but it doesn't reinvent the wheel. Anyone who's played the thief kits (and I have, all of them, on multiple occasions) will feel right at home with the SD.
But still, I fail to see what exactly you hope to accomplish here? The changes that I and many others discussed are already set in motion, the devs thankfully listened to our feedback - the SD as it was to be remade was no fun - specializing in running away from things alone is not going to cut it, for any class.
Yes, I do know what fundamentally means. And you should actually read my posts before responding to me. I never said it was a fundamentally different Class. In fact I said it was fundamentally different from the other thief KITS....
Besides which it's a simple turn of phrase and one that was pretty clear in its message all along: That the Shadow Dancer is a uniquely Stealth based thief - not Traps or Combat or Backstabbing - and those abilities can allow for new and interesting ways to play the game. If you want to use it like any other thief fine, but it does offer broader options.
I think my explanation was pretty clear, but I thought my previous three posts were clear on that point as well, so I'll be happy to go over it all again if you want...just make sure to read them carefully first, ok?
And - not that I need a reason to post a thought on this board - but Originally what I had hoped to accomplish here was to contribute to a reasonable discussion on the merits of the Shadow Dancer kit. Specifically to point out how fun the kit is right now (BETA version), without changes to Backstabs. In fact I've never said I'm against changing the kit. But I think it's stupid how much enthusiasm has gone into bashing a change based on supposition rather than playing. From what I've read, most people who post their experiences with the kit seem happy, even with the Beta version. Personally I've been quite pleased, not my typical play style, but I enjoy it nonetheless.
I should add that this was my first time of playing Thief Kit and SD makes this experience brilliant - for me "Thief" should be always about being invisible, steel what I want, avoid killing people and leave area without anyone notice :-]
But still, I fail to see what exactly you hope to accomplish here? The changes that I and many others discussed are already set in motion, the devs thankfully listened to our feedback - the SD as it was to be remade was no fun - specializing in running away from things alone is not going to cut it, for any class.
Two things.
First, you haven't actually experienced the changes, so I would shy away from claims about a kit's fun factor until then.
Second, the changes in the modding forum are still just a mod, and they're not going in with this patch. That's part of a longer conversation, and it's certainly one worth having, but I would like to encourage everyone to offer their input, not just the people who agree with one side. Really, there shouldn't be "sides" to this issue. There's a balance that can be found here, and I'm convinced that we can find it.
But dismissals like the one quoted above are counterproductive. We can make the changes without discussing them. Hell, I can make them without consulting the fans at all. But I don't want to do that. I want this conversation to be open, and I don't want anyone to feel they can't contribute.
Another way to look at the current implementation of the Shadow Dancer would be to give it damage through utility & abilities :
- X/Day "Summon Shadow" ability - At low level, shadows that drain strength. At higher level, greater shadows that drain levels. - X/Day "Shadow Daze" ability - Save vs Spell or become confused for 5 rounds. Every 10 levels, the daze becomes harder to save against (Save vs Spell at -1 at level 10, -2 at level 20, -3 at level 30, -4 at level 40)
You could even give it a "Shadow Clone" ability at level 20, that would just be a copy of "Simulacrum"
Then, the low amount of backstab damage would become justified.
It seems like it could be more like a mage/sourceror type class, somewhat like the dragon's blood class and other semi-monster classes. Except part wraith, or something like that. It doesn't seem like it could work with an anti-undead group. It could be something like a demi-monster class, with some theiving abilities.
Otherwise, something like a save vs. polymorph check could be made when it tries to hide in view.
So you can either be a weaksauce warrior who can vanish when attacked, or you can roll a different class and be a real warrior who doesn't need to. Nice.
It's more of a specially evasive character, that wouldn't be effective as a warrior.
Seriously, I keep reading @enneract 's post to find where he's not talking reasonably and civil, but I can't find it.
The beta testers' comments are to consider, not nessisary to give feedback on. For comments by @enneract, complaints are largely what the forum is for. If the game is not satifactory, it makes for a bad game. But it would be nice if I didn't have to wear my sensitive ear protectors to read some of the posts.
First, you haven't actually experienced the changes, so I would shy away from claims about a kit's fun factor until then.
Second, the changes in the modding forum are still just a mod, and they're not going in with this patch. That's part of a longer conversation, and it's certainly one worth having, but I would like to encourage everyone to offer their input, not just the people who agree with one side. Really, there shouldn't be "sides" to this issue. There's a balance that can be found here, and I'm convinced that we can find it.
But dismissals like the one quoted above are counterproductive. We can make the changes without discussing them. Hell, I can make them without consulting the fans at all. But I don't want to do that. I want this conversation to be open, and I don't want anyone to feel they can't contribute.
In fairness to @Infiltrator, you don't necessarily have to have tried a class before you can assess whether or not you think it's going to be fun. I've never played a wizard slayer, and that's because my knowledge of the game and the class details informs me that I'm probably not going to enjoy it. If you have the facts in front of you, you don't need to play a class to be able to make a reasonable determination as to whether or not you'll enjoy it.
Granted, it's definitely not fair to declare a class *universally* un-fun (everyone has different tastes), but I don't think that's been the general argument in this thread. I won't be playing the Shadowdancer in its vanilla form after the patch because I don't *need* to play it to know that it doesn't appeal to me.
I do love how the mod looks, though, and I think it's great that the devs are creating alternative options like this to facilitate further conversation. Given how easy the backstab progression apparently is to change, I don't think anyone has to worry about not being able to play their preferred iteration of the shadowdancer in some form or another.
I do love how the mod looks, though, and I think it's great that the devs are creating alternative options like this to facilitate further conversation. Given how easy the backstab progression apparently is to change, I don't think anyone has to worry about not being able to play their preferred iteration of the shadowdancer in some form or another.
You guys want a WeiDU mod to allow for arbitrary backstab progressions?~
More specifically, maybe you could make effective comments, and not blap about things that don't matter. Bittering about things doesn't do anything for the post than make it about bittering. If you want that, there's many places to go. Otherwise you're making references to things that don't belong on this post.
Comments
But honestly I feel people shouldn't get too hung up over backstab multipliers. With the 2da externalization it's pretty much trivial to change it to your liking. And hopefully the look in the kitchen people are getting here has shown that there is no ultimate correct implementation.
It seems Dee is trying out different things with the SD at the moment, so we'll see what he brews up in the end!
The fact that he is also toying with the vanilla thief and the assassin gives me hope for other not-so-great kits, like the wizard slayer and the shapeshifter.
Still, Wizard Slayer needs some work, but that's for another thread.
- for single low enemy numbers, SD is a killing machine even with BSx1: hit once, run away, hide, repeat until everyone will be dead and in case of danger use "SD Time Stop". No, you don't always have Warrior with Invisible Potions/Spells and you don't use 10 Invisible Potions/Spells on each fight. SD Hide in Shadow is very powerful when combined with for eg: protection potions 100% electricity - the last fight of "Cloakwood Mines" can be much easier when "Lighting" spell will kill most of the guards instead of you :-]
- for important fights when Warrior/Thief would use "Invisible Potions/Spells" - good luck when you will kill one enemy mage and you will become target for everyone else. SD can "HiS" immediately or use "SD Time Stop" to avoid enemy spells. Everything is for free with SD. It really affected my style of play - I don't use my SD as a main DPS dealer but as a support for Warrior/Cleric with maxed AC. And she can Heal and Cure Poison! Very useful because again, "SD Time Stop" makes every SD spells instant everywhere at the screen.
- Indeed SD is behind in lock-pick, steel and detect traps but there must be any penalty for his new powers. You can use potions/scrolls/spells to deal with that.
- New SD Tweaks (BSx2 at level 5): most of enemy become stronger after level 4, this change is very nice. But then, the only penalty for SD are missing traps and very low lock-pick, steel and detect traps. For me it was very lite to sacrifice for all powerful SD skills. With SD BS set to "x2" why I would wanted to use normal Thief?
Anyway, I've enjoyed plying SD very much.
If you are hell bent on combat power and DPS, use the assassin. That's what its designed for...
Just try using the HiPS ability for things other than backstabbing. I'm sure it's useful - enough so that the change in backstab power isn't a huge issue...
http://www.tentonhammer.com/the-delusions-of-player-communication-requests
isn't it just a weak version of a mage/thief?
If so, a lot of others seem to also be missing that point unless you failed to notice.. but please elaborate more on how exactly the core, fundamental gameplay differs, and how is backstab not the primary aspect of a class that can execute it more than anyone else, especially early on when other thieves don't have their own chain-stab items?
Evading damage alone doesn't make an interesting class.
First, I think you know EXACTLY the point I'm making.
Secondly, you asked me: You've illustrated my point all by yourself: What makes the Shadow Dancer so interesting is that it enables, even encourages, the player to use stealth in a way that isn't only concentrated on backstabbing offensively. That is a fundamental change in the way to play a thief. It doesn't mean you cant use other thieves in a similar fashion, or use the Shadow Dancer like any other thief, but the design of the Shadow Dancer optimizes a new way of play. And it seems like if you want to get the full value of the kit, you should explore the new style.
If you don't want to do that, fine. Lament the loss of your precious backstab and how the great thief kit was made mundane. But that doesn't mean the kit is broken or that it doesn't offer a clear value to gameplay. If all anyone wanted was insane damage and was happy to use invisibility potions then a fighter or F/T is way better. But the Shadow Dancer can provide excellent offensive support, even without high damage dealing backstabs. Of course to get the most out of it you have to play it in a new way...which to you might not be interesting, but then chain-stabbing isn't especially interesting to me either...
I still don't see what's fundamentally different. Do you know what fundamentally means? Two fundamentally different classes are a fighter and a mage, not a thief and a shadowdancer. The latter are pretty similar as the core concepts are the same.
The kit *favors* a certain thief sub play-style and adds flavor abilities to him but it doesn't reinvent the wheel. Anyone who's played the thief kits (and I have, all of them, on multiple occasions) will feel right at home with the SD.
But still, I fail to see what exactly you hope to accomplish here? The changes that I and many others discussed are already set in motion, the devs thankfully listened to our feedback - the SD as it was to be remade was no fun - specializing in running away from things alone is not going to cut it, for any class.
Yes, I do know what fundamentally means. And you should actually read my posts before responding to me. I never said it was a fundamentally different Class. In fact I said it was fundamentally different from the other thief KITS....
Besides which it's a simple turn of phrase and one that was pretty clear in its message all along: That the Shadow Dancer is a uniquely Stealth based thief - not Traps or Combat or Backstabbing - and those abilities can allow for new and interesting ways to play the game. If you want to use it like any other thief fine, but it does offer broader options.
I think my explanation was pretty clear, but I thought my previous three posts were clear on that point as well, so I'll be happy to go over it all again if you want...just make sure to read them carefully first, ok?
And - not that I need a reason to post a thought on this board - but Originally what I had hoped to accomplish here was to contribute to a reasonable discussion on the merits of the Shadow Dancer kit. Specifically to point out how fun the kit is right now (BETA version), without changes to Backstabs. In fact I've never said I'm against changing the kit. But I think it's stupid how much enthusiasm has gone into bashing a change based on supposition rather than playing. From what I've read, most people who post their experiences with the kit seem happy, even with the Beta version. Personally I've been quite pleased, not my typical play style, but I enjoy it nonetheless.
First, you haven't actually experienced the changes, so I would shy away from claims about a kit's fun factor until then.
Second, the changes in the modding forum are still just a mod, and they're not going in with this patch. That's part of a longer conversation, and it's certainly one worth having, but I would like to encourage everyone to offer their input, not just the people who agree with one side. Really, there shouldn't be "sides" to this issue. There's a balance that can be found here, and I'm convinced that we can find it.
But dismissals like the one quoted above are counterproductive. We can make the changes without discussing them. Hell, I can make them without consulting the fans at all. But I don't want to do that. I want this conversation to be open, and I don't want anyone to feel they can't contribute.
Otherwise, something like a save vs. polymorph check could be made when it tries to hide in view.
It's more of a specially evasive character, that wouldn't be effective as a warrior.
The beta testers' comments are to consider, not nessisary to give feedback on. For comments by @enneract, complaints are largely what the forum is for. If the game is not satifactory, it makes for a bad game. But it would be nice if I didn't have to wear my sensitive ear protectors to read some of the posts.
Granted, it's definitely not fair to declare a class *universally* un-fun (everyone has different tastes), but I don't think that's been the general argument in this thread. I won't be playing the Shadowdancer in its vanilla form after the patch because I don't *need* to play it to know that it doesn't appeal to me.
I do love how the mod looks, though, and I think it's great that the devs are creating alternative options like this to facilitate further conversation. Given how easy the backstab progression apparently is to change, I don't think anyone has to worry about not being able to play their preferred iteration of the shadowdancer in some form or another.