@DancingBugBear, we have rules on this site about trolling and rude behavior. I suggest you take a week to reconsider how you present yourself on the forums. This is not the first conversation we've had about this.
If the shadow dancer is supposed to be about mobility and flexibility of the battlefield, rather than damage and combat prowess, like the assassin and swashbuckler kits, perhaps the dancer's backstab should be about combat utility rather than damage.
Suppose the confusing shadows of a shadowdancers backstab apply a debuff to the target of -1 to hit, damage, and AC. Now the dancer is doing less damage than a thief, but the party is doing more and taking less. Scale the debuff with level so it stays relevant.
That's a pretty interesting idea, but I'm sadly not sure how mechanically feasible it is.
It's certainly more work than twiddling the backstab file.
Raises some other questions. Does the target get a save? How long should it last? It should only last the HIPS cooldown if you only want the dancer applying it to one target, but a longer debuff would encourage you to dance around the battlefield applying it to everybody, which is apparently how they're expected to fight.
It may be a bit more helpful if we consider a set scenario and go from there.
PC is a thief kit of your choice. Also in party are Minsc, Dynaheir, and Branwen. All are level 4 except the PC, who is level 5. Any weapons and spells of your choice. Your goal is to kill the three named npcs in the outdoor area of the Bandit Camp in one rest cycle (so no refreshing spells)
Ignoring the possibly-insane party selection, how do you use each variation of thief?
First, you haven't actually experienced the changes, so I would shy away from claims about a kit's fun factor until then.
Second, the changes in the modding forum are still just a mod, and they're not going in with this patch. That's part of a longer conversation, and it's certainly one worth having, but I would like to encourage everyone to offer their input, not just the people who agree with one side. Really, there shouldn't be "sides" to this issue. There's a balance that can be found here, and I'm convinced that we can find it.
I've experience the shadowdancer in the official release, and for someone who's mained (pure) thieves alone throughout BG1/2 at least half a dozen playthroughs, I can safely say that even without access to the beta I have enough experience to be able to tell what kind of damage the new multipliers will yield. I'm still fairly convinced that a class based around dodging isn't fun, especially when the bulk of its damage is balanced on a mechanic that deal strictly single target physical damage at melee range.
I'm not entirely sure what the issue is here. I mean, if we're going by the book: The shadowdancer is a 3.0/3.5 edition PRC class that doesn't gain any additional sneak attack's through all ten levels of the PRC (If I remember correctly).
It's a given that the Shadowdancer as a PRC is easily accessible via the rogue, and thus would gain the rogue's sneak attack, however this is not exclusively so.
Other stealth oriented classes such as the Ranger would not gain sneak attack/backstab (unless playing a stalker) abilities - and they are actually one of the more common types of Shadowdancer. I can't remember the name of the particular group of Shar worshippers, but they do exist.
The Shadowdancer is a PRC, or BG:EE kit that revolves around the character to be able to access the shadow plane at will - in fact the Shadowdancer is a more magically orientated PRC/kit. This would bring on the assumption that said character would not have the training/ability/desire to backstab/sneak attack as well as a standard rogue/assassin etc. They would spend more of their time researching and training themselves to be better adept in accessing the shadow world. This is why they come with a number of supernatural abilities. Shadowdancers are supposed to be masters of stealth, to the point it becomes an art - not the masters of knifing someone to the back or slitting throats.
Now i'm not saying that they should not have any backstab bonus, as the BG:EE Shadowdancer kit, like the Swashbuckler kit, assumes the PC to have taken the rogue route. I do however like @Dee's original backstab multiplier progression. it seems more 'correct' - in my opinion.
@Infiltrator - I have also played through all BG games as all kinds of rogue/thieves, and whereas I understand your point that the Shadowdancer might be lacking in damage with reference to the other thief kits - the Shadowdancer has something they don't have: Survivability. If played right, you quite simply will never die. I am also liking @famousringo's idea above - perhaps a 'Shadowstrike' ability? more supernatural abilities might be the way to appeasing everyone on this matter.
On a side note, I would like to point out that I have never liked or agreed with the inclusion of 3.0/3.5 addition classes and PRC's into the 2nd edition BG games. I don't think they transfer very well and there are a large number of genuine 2nd edition kits out there that would have been more suitable to the game mechanics.
Infiltrator - I have also played through all BG games as all kinds of rogue/thieves, and whereas I understand your point that the Shadowdancer might be lacking in damage with reference to the other thief kits - the Shadowdancer has something they don't have: Survivability. If played right, you quite simply will never die. I am also liking famousringo's idea above - perhaps a 'Shadowstrike' ability? more supernatural abilities might be the way to appeasing everyone on this matter.
I know people have brought up the idea of giving the Shadowdancer the ability to summon a shadow; something like that or perhaps the ability to spin off an illusory version of themselves as a distraction (like Mislead but less borked in implementation) would go well with the theme of survivability and illusions. The original PRC also has a lot of mobility-related aspects, so a small boost to base movement speed, similar to what the Barbarian gets, might be a nice perk at higher levels, and it would be nice for those shadowdancers who forgo boots of speed for boots of stealth.
Shadowdancer might be lacking in damage with reference to the other thief kits - the Shadowdancer has something they don't have: Survivability. If played right, you quite simply will never die.
Shadowdancer might be lacking in damage with reference to the other thief kits - the Shadowdancer has something they don't have: Survivability. If played right, you quite simply will never die.
Now I want to see a no reload run!
Trust me you don't want that : Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Ad vitam eternam
Shadowdancer might be lacking in damage with reference to the other thief kits - the Shadowdancer has something they don't have: Survivability. If played right, you quite simply will never die.
Now I want to see a no reload run!
Trust me you don't want that : Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Hit. Hide. Ad vitam eternam
Because of the delay after leaving stealth that doesn't work though. Trust me, I've tried. In a situation where there are more than one or two enemies someone always managed to make a hit while you're out of stealth.
@Basillicum - I remember being able to survive quite well with my old original vanilla rogue. Hit, run away, hide behind a wall, stealth again. Hit. Now, I can only imagine how strong this would be with HIPS. Doesn't @Dee's Shadowdancer also have Shadow evade as well? So on the odd chance you do get hit by an enemy, do they not have a 50% chance to miss altogether?
I loved the tactical mindset I gained when playing a rogue, and that is what the Shadowdancer could be about. You do not always have to be a mad damage dealer to be a successful and fun character. The Shadowdancer, if used right, could be used as a distraction (gather all the agro and then separate a group up before hiding.) This would allow the rest of your party to clear up mobs of smaller groups. Imagine combining the Shadowdancer with the Boots of Speed?
Edit: Sorry @Kaigen I didn't see your comment on movement speed but this is also a good idea for those SD's that want to use boots of Stealth instead.
The possibilities are endless - You just have to think beyond the character sheets and math. I think more Shadow abilities might go a long way to making everyone happy, because the simple and awful truth is: The Shadowdancer is not a backstabber/sneak attacker. It never has been. The only reason a lot of people think it is a backstabber/sneak attacker is because many people abused the PRC mechanic in games like NWN and NWN2 (and even some PnP games) and only took one level of Shadowdancer so they could get HIPS.
I'd love it if the SD was more different than other thieves, instead of being exactly like other thieves but with HiPS and the tradeoffs you make to get it. Because HiPS alone is just.. ok. It has decent utility, but is pretty bland as it is. It just doesn't feel like you're skirting the plane of shadow or anything. It's just hiding without having to run behind a tree.
Wouldn't it be great if HiPS and shadowstep were the same thing? That HiPSing would stop time for a few seconds? Or maybe being hasted while hiding? Hell, I'd already be happier with just the visual effect!
I absolutely love the idea of a special backstab (that doesn't even necessarily have to do extra damage) that has an effect like confusion, blindness, maybe even maze! The SD will be the bounty hunter of backstabs
And if we're trading damage for fun effects, why not a special shadow traps focused on sowing confusion as well? (and lift the no-traps restriction).
Things like this would make the SD flavorful, unique, and interesting.
Additional spell abilities like mirror image, blur, teleport field or summon shadow could be interesting, but well, there's already mage/thiefs for those.
Because of the delay after leaving stealth that doesn't work though. Trust me, I've tried. In a situation where there are more than one or two enemies someone always managed to make a hit while you're out of stealth.
Because of the delay after leaving stealth that doesn't work though. Trust me, I've tried. In a situation where there are more than one or two enemies someone always managed to make a hit while you're out of stealth.
Which is where archery comes in.
Are you serious?
All thieves are just as good or even better archers as Shadowdancer. If you're not an idiot and not trying to shoot enemy in mele fight then is hiding completely unnecessary. How many players use party without single mele fighter? Are you trying to defend defective playing?
Because of the delay after leaving stealth that doesn't work though. Trust me, I've tried. In a situation where there are more than one or two enemies someone always managed to make a hit while you're out of stealth.
Which is where archery comes in.
Are you serious?
All thieves are just as good or even better archers as Shadowdancer. If you're not an idiot and not trying to shoot enemy in mele fight then is hiding completely unnecessary. How many players use party without single mele fighter? Are you trying to defend defective playing?
Jeesh calm down man. No need to go all hostile here.
@Edvin Hide in Plain Sight is very useful when kiting, because it allows you to re-position to a greater distance when the enemy is getting too close and has a similar speed to you. It's also very useful when you accidentally stumble into another enemy while kiting and have to separate them.
It's less useful once you have a few solid melee fighters in your party, but in that case, delivering a melee hit is much less risky anyway because the enemies are already occupied.
@elminster I'm not hostile, but English is not my main language, so it could be construed otherwise than I wished.
@Kaigen What you are suggesting is not very practical. 1) Shadowdancer is... correction, Shadowdancer is'nt lot of things and a good archer is one of them. 2) Once you hide enemies attack some other members of your party and it is unlikely that they focus on you again. 3) Practical use of hide is a maximally 1-3 per fight ( 3 for long battles with bosses )
BTW i really like the idea of shadow clones. If he had been able once every 5 levels creates a shadow clone, which had the same properties, but only 1 HP ( it's just a shadow and vanishes after the intervention ) it would finally something useful.
1) Shadowdancers do not have any particular bonuses to archery, but they are in large part as good at archery as other thieves, which is to say, as other characters with high Dex and middling THAC0. 2) I developed this tactic in the early stages of the game playing solo around Candlekeep. At this stage you have to play cautiously because a critical hit from any enemy, even a gibberling, can kill you. Wolves, in particular, are dangerous because of their high speed, and HiPS is very useful against them for the reasons I mentioned. 3) Even when you have a larger party, enemies will still get it in their heads to attack one of your ranged attackers instead of one of your front-liners. This usually results in your archer running around in circles while a melee character attempts to peel the enemy off of them; HiPS is a much more efficient means of shaking enemy attention. 4) I'm not sure what you mean by "Practical use of hide is a maximally 1-3 per fight ( 3 for long battles with bosses )." If you mean you expect the fight to be over within three rounds, then you're right, the shadowdancer isn't practical, because when you're disposing of enemies that fast you have little need for defenses or utility. If you mean that you can only see yourself using HiPS 1 to 3 times during a fight no matter how long, well, that's still more usage than a Bounty Hunter will get out of his special traps, and it's more usage than an Assassin will get out of Poison Weapon until very high levels.
Besides the odd few people, there seems to be a severe underestimation of just how powerful HiPS is. It is stupidly powerful in 3rd/3.5 edition and it is stupidly powerful in 2nd edition - with or without sneak attacks/backstab.
It is an instant life saver. Unless you play on the easiest difficulty or with Keeper edited CHARNAMES, I cannot stress how important I perceive this to be. I cannot understand why many others don't see this either.
Ehh, well, a lot of people just play the game by only right clicking enemies and waiting for them to die. I can see how they think the shadow dancer is useless.
To me the shadow dancer is one of the most fun solo characters I've played recently. I'm now almost ready to enter BG, having never reloaded I'd say that's pretty decent. I'm pretty sure this would've been more difficult with any other thief kit.
I think we can conclude that if you just want to deal a ton of damage with your thief without much care for anything else, shadow dancer isn't the kit for you. And that's perfectly fine, just pick assassin or fighter/thief. No need to bend and twist each and every kit to fit same role and playstyle.
Honestly, you guys rock the house. There's one thing I don't like about overpowered classes-ones that can be too ridiculously powerful. Me able to kill Sarevok in 3 backstabs in Bg 1 EE with shadowdancer (15 seconds) Umm.. yeah that's too powerful. I didn't even use anyone else there was no need.
Im hoping that you make the class/kit as normal as possible. I'd rather use a class that has weaknesses than a ultra powered monster that can destroy anything without a problem.
Dee, I know you aren't working on new kits yet but this is definitely step in right direction. Maybe Bg 2 EE will have new kits.
Ehh, well, a lot of people just play the game by only right clicking enemies and waiting for them to die. I can see how they think the shadow dancer is useless.
It would be nice to have a conversation about it without the insinuation that those who disagree somehow have an unsophisticated appreciation of the game's mechanics.
I'd be interested to know whether you're playing the vanilla version that gets 3x backstab at level 9 or the beta version that gets no backstab whatsoever *until* level 9. I agree that the original version was too strong, but that's going to be a moot point once the patch is in effect. The reason that the devs have done so much to facilitate conversation on the topic is because many feel that the patched version goes too far in the opposite direction.
It would be really awesome to see a thread comparing the gameplay between the vanilla, patched, and modded versions of the shadowdancer by someone who has actually played all three.
@Purudaya - I get what you're saying here, but the point still stands: The Shadowdancer is and has never been a backstabber/sneak attacker.
If it was up to me (which I am sure many of you are glad it is not) I would remove the backstab multiplier from the Shadowdancer altogether and add a few more shadow abilities to make up for it. I would actually have made the Shadowdancer a Ranger kit that allowed all alignments, or I wouldn't have included it at all.
It doesn't take a genius to know that the Shadowdancer as a PRC has been abused to such lengths that hardly anybody ever took it as a PRC beyond first level (for HiPS). All you have to do is search D&D Shadowdancer builds on google to see what I mean.
@DKnight stated above that he was able to take out Sarevok in 15 seconds with the current version of the Shadowdancer - which you must admit is shocking.
There is one other mechanic that perhaps some people here can help me with, as I do not have BG:EE installed at the moment to test it out: Does HiPS cancel out targeted spells to the PC? What I mean is, for example: Mage casts magic missile or any other kind of spell that targets a single character at CHARNAME - If HiPS was used as the caster was trying to throw a spell, would it cause the caster to be interrupted if he can no longer see his/her target?
@DKnight stated above that he was able to take out Sarevok in 15 seconds with the current version of the Shadowdancer - which you must admit is shocking.
Current non-beta version of SD is broken mechanically - namely, HIPS has no delay, and so as long as you can consistently succeed, you can chain backstabs with nearly no risk.
The key to fixing it is to make it so you are able to backstab and hide in plain sight every 2 rounds. If you figure this-If an assassin backstabs an enemy once he will deal major damage but will have to rehide. While the dancer will backstab once from being hidden in first place and twice in that round for hide in plain sight. If both attacks hit he will come out on top. However thieves can sometimes miss so its still fair to say assassins are lethal.
If this doesn't get fixed then my next character in BG 2 EE will forever have a +4 hide bonus when he attacks as he will basically be hidden all the time. Its a good class but defeats the purpose of party members as you are hitting as often as tanks and with evasive bonuses they don't get. Even in the hell battle you are still getting a +4 to hit and even though some demons can see you if you when out of fog of war, they will forget who they are going after even though they saw you before.
I know that from playing an assassin in the 2nd game. I really wish they would make 3 more kits sometime as Ive played all of them at least twice except the dancer which was just once
The key to fixing it is to make it so you are able to backstab and hide in plain sight every 2 rounds. If you figure this-If an assassin backstabs an enemy once he will deal major damage but will have to rehide. While the dancer will backstab once from being hidden in first place and twice in that round for hide in plain sight. If both attacks hit he will come out on top. However thieves can sometimes miss so its still fair to say assassins are lethal.
If this doesn't get fixed then my next character in BG 2 EE will forever have a +4 hide bonus when he attacks as he will basically be hidden all the time. Its a good class but defeats the purpose of party members as you are hitting as often as tanks and with evasive bonuses they don't get. Even in the hell battle you are still getting a +4 to hit and even though some demons can see you if you when out of fog of war, they will forget who they are going after even though they saw you before.
I know that from playing an assassin in the 2nd game. I really wish they would make 3 more kits sometime as Ive played all of them at least twice except the dancer which was just once
Have you played the beta at all? The HIPS bug is fixed. There is a cooldown after leaving stealth, no matter what now.
I don't know what is in/they put in bg2, but if there are shadow dancer npcs it could have been a AI issue.
I think a hard cap to his and ms would have been better. Rp - Though everyone keeps there eye on a thief when near shadow dancers demand more attention due to there ability to seemingly vanish into thin air.
Making sure they have a minimum fail rate taking gear into consideration.
Edit: This way you could have kept the low multiplier and stealth ability
Comments
Suppose the confusing shadows of a shadowdancers backstab apply a debuff to the target of -1 to hit, damage, and AC. Now the dancer is doing less damage than a thief, but the party is doing more and taking less. Scale the debuff with level so it stays relevant.
Raises some other questions. Does the target get a save? How long should it last? It should only last the HIPS cooldown if you only want the dancer applying it to one target, but a longer debuff would encourage you to dance around the battlefield applying it to everybody, which is apparently how they're expected to fight.
PC is a thief kit of your choice. Also in party are Minsc, Dynaheir, and Branwen. All are level 4 except the PC, who is level 5. Any weapons and spells of your choice. Your goal is to kill the three named npcs in the outdoor area of the Bandit Camp in one rest cycle (so no refreshing spells)
Ignoring the possibly-insane party selection, how do you use each variation of thief?
As for your second point, I agree.
It's a given that the Shadowdancer as a PRC is easily accessible via the rogue, and thus would gain the rogue's sneak attack, however this is not exclusively so.
Other stealth oriented classes such as the Ranger would not gain sneak attack/backstab (unless playing a stalker) abilities - and they are actually one of the more common types of Shadowdancer. I can't remember the name of the particular group of Shar worshippers, but they do exist.
The Shadowdancer is a PRC, or BG:EE kit that revolves around the character to be able to access the shadow plane at will - in fact the Shadowdancer is a more magically orientated PRC/kit. This would bring on the assumption that said character would not have the training/ability/desire to backstab/sneak attack as well as a standard rogue/assassin etc. They would spend more of their time researching and training themselves to be better adept in accessing the shadow world. This is why they come with a number of supernatural abilities. Shadowdancers are supposed to be masters of stealth, to the point it becomes an art - not the masters of knifing someone to the back or slitting throats.
Now i'm not saying that they should not have any backstab bonus, as the BG:EE Shadowdancer kit, like the Swashbuckler kit, assumes the PC to have taken the rogue route. I do however like @Dee's original backstab multiplier progression. it seems more 'correct' - in my opinion.
@Infiltrator - I have also played through all BG games as all kinds of rogue/thieves, and whereas I understand your point that the Shadowdancer might be lacking in damage with reference to the other thief kits - the Shadowdancer has something they don't have: Survivability. If played right, you quite simply will never die. I am also liking @famousringo's idea above - perhaps a 'Shadowstrike' ability? more supernatural abilities might be the way to appeasing everyone on this matter.
On a side note, I would like to point out that I have never liked or agreed with the inclusion of 3.0/3.5 addition classes and PRC's into the 2nd edition BG games. I don't think they transfer very well and there are a large number of genuine 2nd edition kits out there that would have been more suitable to the game mechanics.
Hit.
Hide.
Hit.
Hide.
Hit.
Hide.
Hit.
Hide.
Hit.
Hide.
Ad vitam eternam
I loved the tactical mindset I gained when playing a rogue, and that is what the Shadowdancer could be about. You do not always have to be a mad damage dealer to be a successful and fun character. The Shadowdancer, if used right, could be used as a distraction (gather all the agro and then separate a group up before hiding.) This would allow the rest of your party to clear up mobs of smaller groups. Imagine combining the Shadowdancer with the Boots of Speed?
Edit: Sorry @Kaigen I didn't see your comment on movement speed but this is also a good idea for those SD's that want to use boots of Stealth instead.
The possibilities are endless - You just have to think beyond the character sheets and math. I think more Shadow abilities might go a long way to making everyone happy, because the simple and awful truth is: The Shadowdancer is not a backstabber/sneak attacker. It never has been. The only reason a lot of people think it is a backstabber/sneak attacker is because many people abused the PRC mechanic in games like NWN and NWN2 (and even some PnP games) and only took one level of Shadowdancer so they could get HIPS.
Wouldn't it be great if HiPS and shadowstep were the same thing? That HiPSing would stop time for a few seconds? Or maybe being hasted while hiding? Hell, I'd already be happier with just the visual effect!
I absolutely love the idea of a special backstab (that doesn't even necessarily have to do extra damage) that has an effect like confusion, blindness, maybe even maze! The SD will be the bounty hunter of backstabs
And if we're trading damage for fun effects, why not a special shadow traps focused on sowing confusion as well? (and lift the no-traps restriction).
Things like this would make the SD flavorful, unique, and interesting.
Additional spell abilities like mirror image, blur, teleport field or summon shadow could be interesting, but well, there's already mage/thiefs for those.
All thieves are just as good or even better archers as Shadowdancer. If you're not an idiot and not trying to shoot enemy in mele fight then is hiding completely unnecessary. How many players use party without single mele fighter? Are you trying to defend defective playing?
It's less useful once you have a few solid melee fighters in your party, but in that case, delivering a melee hit is much less risky anyway because the enemies are already occupied.
I'm not hostile, but English is not my main language, so it could be construed otherwise than I wished.
@Kaigen
What you are suggesting is not very practical.
1) Shadowdancer is... correction, Shadowdancer is'nt lot of things and a good archer is one of them.
2) Once you hide enemies attack some other members of your party and it is unlikely that they focus on you again.
3) Practical use of hide is a maximally 1-3 per fight ( 3 for long battles with bosses )
All of his losses just not offset his advantage.
If he had been able once every 5 levels creates a shadow clone, which had the same properties, but only 1 HP ( it's just a shadow and vanishes after the intervention ) it would finally something useful.
1) Shadowdancers do not have any particular bonuses to archery, but they are in large part as good at archery as other thieves, which is to say, as other characters with high Dex and middling THAC0.
2) I developed this tactic in the early stages of the game playing solo around Candlekeep. At this stage you have to play cautiously because a critical hit from any enemy, even a gibberling, can kill you. Wolves, in particular, are dangerous because of their high speed, and HiPS is very useful against them for the reasons I mentioned.
3) Even when you have a larger party, enemies will still get it in their heads to attack one of your ranged attackers instead of one of your front-liners. This usually results in your archer running around in circles while a melee character attempts to peel the enemy off of them; HiPS is a much more efficient means of shaking enemy attention.
4) I'm not sure what you mean by "Practical use of hide is a maximally 1-3 per fight ( 3 for long battles with bosses )." If you mean you expect the fight to be over within three rounds, then you're right, the shadowdancer isn't practical, because when you're disposing of enemies that fast you have little need for defenses or utility. If you mean that you can only see yourself using HiPS 1 to 3 times during a fight no matter how long, well, that's still more usage than a Bounty Hunter will get out of his special traps, and it's more usage than an Assassin will get out of Poison Weapon until very high levels.
It is an instant life saver. Unless you play on the easiest difficulty or with Keeper edited CHARNAMES, I cannot stress how important I perceive this to be. I cannot understand why many others don't see this either.
To me the shadow dancer is one of the most fun solo characters I've played recently. I'm now almost ready to enter BG, having never reloaded I'd say that's pretty decent. I'm pretty sure this would've been more difficult with any other thief kit.
I think we can conclude that if you just want to deal a ton of damage with your thief without much care for anything else, shadow dancer isn't the kit for you. And that's perfectly fine, just pick assassin or fighter/thief. No need to bend and twist each and every kit to fit same role and playstyle.
Im hoping that you make the class/kit as normal as possible. I'd rather use a class that has weaknesses than a ultra powered monster that can destroy anything without a problem.
Dee, I know you aren't working on new kits yet but this is definitely step in right direction. Maybe Bg 2 EE will have new kits.
I'd be interested to know whether you're playing the vanilla version that gets 3x backstab at level 9 or the beta version that gets no backstab whatsoever *until* level 9. I agree that the original version was too strong, but that's going to be a moot point once the patch is in effect. The reason that the devs have done so much to facilitate conversation on the topic is because many feel that the patched version goes too far in the opposite direction.
It would be really awesome to see a thread comparing the gameplay between the vanilla, patched, and modded versions of the shadowdancer by someone who has actually played all three.
If it was up to me (which I am sure many of you are glad it is not) I would remove the backstab multiplier from the Shadowdancer altogether and add a few more shadow abilities to make up for it. I would actually have made the Shadowdancer a Ranger kit that allowed all alignments, or I wouldn't have included it at all.
It doesn't take a genius to know that the Shadowdancer as a PRC has been abused to such lengths that hardly anybody ever took it as a PRC beyond first level (for HiPS). All you have to do is search D&D Shadowdancer builds on google to see what I mean.
@DKnight stated above that he was able to take out Sarevok in 15 seconds with the current version of the Shadowdancer - which you must admit is shocking.
There is one other mechanic that perhaps some people here can help me with, as I do not have BG:EE installed at the moment to test it out: Does HiPS cancel out targeted spells to the PC? What I mean is, for example: Mage casts magic missile or any other kind of spell that targets a single character at CHARNAME - If HiPS was used as the caster was trying to throw a spell, would it cause the caster to be interrupted if he can no longer see his/her target?
If this doesn't get fixed then my next character in BG 2 EE will forever have a +4 hide bonus when he attacks as he will basically be hidden all the time. Its a good class but defeats the purpose of party members as you are hitting as often as tanks and with evasive bonuses they don't get. Even in the hell battle you are still getting a +4 to hit and even though some demons can see you if you when out of fog of war, they will forget who they are going after even though they saw you before.
I know that from playing an assassin in the 2nd game. I really wish they would make 3 more kits sometime as Ive played all of them at least twice except the dancer which was just once
I think a hard cap to his and ms would have been better. Rp - Though everyone keeps there eye on a thief when near shadow dancers demand more attention due to there ability to seemingly vanish into thin air.
Making sure they have a minimum fail rate taking gear into consideration.
Edit: This way you could have kept the low multiplier and stealth ability