It gets applied once you start the game; it won't show up on the character creation screen.
It did for me. It just wouldn't show it until after you'd selected your thieving skill points (for me if you look at the middle of the screen in the character creation screen it should show).
"Fix Shadowdancer" is most popular problem in "Top Ten Issues!" Greatest number of votes! Thank you all for your support! Issues that have the most likes will be looked at first. It looks like Shadowdancer problem will have priority.
"Fix Shadowdancer" is most popular problem in "Top Ten Issues!" Greatest number of votes! Thank you all for your support! Issues that have the most likes will be looked at first. It looks like Shadowdancer problem will have priority.
Good, it'd be a shame if it the multipliers were left like they are. And it makes sense if it's a top issue - a lot of people want to play a fun class, both in BG1 and BG2. Evading most attacks but doing no damage for the first 9 levels isn't fun.
Not going to comment on the whole backstabbing issue, but I think it would be interesting if the Shadowdancer got some special abilities related to their stealth.
Watch the Shadows: For five rounds after activating this ability, every time the Shadowdancer enters stealth all enemies in the area must make a saving throw versus spell or flee in terror for the next three rounds.
Blindside: After attacking a enemy from stealth, that enemy receives a four point penalty to their AC for the next four rounds.
I disagree with the original statement of this post, believing rather that the Shadowdancer's diminished backstabbing ability is totally legitimate as they will ultimately be capable of backstabbing every other round in the average fight. I also would like to add, off topic, if it can be excused, that it seems some people expect the new kits introduced should be the best kits in the game: the Dragon Disciple gets a lot of flack for being weaker than the Sorcerer, but the Beast Master, the Wizard Slayer, and the Jester hardly have their cake and eat it too in their respective fields. Similarly, the Shadowdancer is not going to be capable of everything the average thief can do and then some. As it should be, I thought.
"Fix Shadowdancer" is most popular problem in "Top Ten Issues!" Greatest number of votes! Thank you all for your support! Issues that have the most likes will be looked at first. It looks like Shadowdancer problem will have priority.
I don't know, it sounds to me like it's already been looked at, and they're going to leave it where it is for the time being.
I disagree with the original statement of this post, believing rather that the Shadowdancer's diminished backstabbing ability is totally legitimate as they will ultimately be capable of backstabbing every other round in the average fight. I also would like to add, off topic, if it can be excused, that it seems some people expect the new kits introduced should be the best kits in the game: the Dragon Disciple gets a lot of flack for being weaker than the Sorcerer, but the Beast Master, the Wizard Slayer, and the Jester hardly have their cake and eat it too in their respective fields. Similarly, the Shadowdancer is not going to be capable of everything the average thief can do and then some. As it should be, I thought.
Don't just read the original statement, a lot has been said over the 5 pages of this thread
I don't know, it sounds to me like it's already been looked at, and they're going to leave it where it is for the time being.
Most of the people that asked for a change wanted so >after< the proposed fix (that caused the "No backstab from level 1 to 8") that so many here dislike.
To clarify: The Top Ten Issues thread is for bugs, not feature requests.
To be honest calling it a feature request is an overstatement, when all it really is a simple tweak to the multipliers that can be done in a matter of minutes.
Anything that is currently working as designed that you want to see changed is a feature request. It might not be a new feature, but it's certainly not a bug.
While I know there has to be a certain nomenclature, I think the thread name gives out the wrong impression of what is valid. Certainly, everyone will agree that a lot of people here see the SD's current state as an "issue" albeit not a "bug" (which the thread does not convey at first glance).
Regardless, the tweak, or "feature request" demands minimal effort on the developers' part, I am sure.
I am just talking in a practical sense, of course I don't know your decison-making hierarchy so I can't comment on that.
But this game is made for a very niche market, and the feedback you get (from a lot of first-hand testers too) here is hundreds of times more valuable than the one you'd get on the boards of a blockbuster multi-platform title..
One day the Wizard Slayer and Shapeshifter will get some love. On that fateful day the sky will crack open and herald the apocalypse.
I never understand how Wizard Slayer kit hasn't been fixed after all those years. It has no real use against spellcasters and its magic resist is a joke compared to disadvantage it suffers from not using magic items.
Fortunately there is Inquisitor kit for paladins. It's the real Wizard Slayer in game for me
I, for one, rather like Dee's SD changes. I had to think about them some, but I like them. Even with a 1x multiplier, you still get +4 to hit when attacking from stealth, which means that you're gonna have a better THAC0 than a fighter for the first few levels. Fewer attacks per round, of course, but you can damage strategic targets with impunity. No worries about being caught behind enemy lines when you're taking a whack at the mage, and if he starts casting you can just vanish. Ultimately you won't be a better damage-dealer than the fighter, but you'll be a decent one for awhile, and have other uses that the fighter doesn't (the bonus thief skills are really helpful in this regard). The SD starts to really lag behind in the 7-8th level range, but once he hits 9th he gets a real backstab multiplier and gets back into the game. He then never really leaves it, getting progressively stronger backstab, even up to 4x.
I do wonder if they'll still get the HLA traps, though, given their lack of set snare. It's certainly not impossible, as bards get them, but it would be a little odd. Of course, it'd be hard to make up for losing Spike Trap, so maybe it's best not to meddle.
I, for one, rather like Dee's SD changes. I had to think about them some, but I like them. Even with a 1x multiplier, you still get +4 to hit when attacking from stealth, which means that you're gonna have a better THAC0 than a fighter for the first few levels. Fewer attacks per round, of course, but you can damage strategic targets with impunity. No worries about being caught behind enemy lines when you're taking a whack at the mage, and if he starts casting you can just vanish. Ultimately you won't be a better damage-dealer than the fighter, but you'll be a decent one for awhile, and have other uses that the fighter doesn't (the bonus thief skills are really helpful in this regard). The SD starts to really lag behind in the 7-8th level range, but once he hits 9th he gets a real backstab multiplier and gets back into the game. He then never really leaves it, getting progressively stronger backstab, even up to 4x.
I do wonder if they'll still get the HLA traps, though, given their lack of set snare. It's certainly not impossible, as bards get them, but it would be a little odd. Of course, it'd be hard to make up for losing Spike Trap, so maybe it's best not to meddle.
Check your math. Fighter will usually have about the same thac0 as SD attacking from stealth, but gets it all time time instead of sporadically.
So, keeping in mind that thieves advance faster than fighters, and including weapon specialization (but not strength bonus, which could make a 1-2 point difference in the fighter's favor, depending on exceptional strength, provided that the character in question isn't a halfling or half-orc). Weapon mastery does tilt the scales significantly in the fighter's favor, but of course most of the warrior classes live without it. Ranger included for non-mastery reference.
That's up to 4th/5th level. And, I should point out, more-or-less reflects what I was saying. Starts off better (and stays better than the ranger for a while), stays roughly equal for awhile afterwards. Of course the overall damage output is much lower, due to fewer attacks per round, slightly less damage per hit, and occasionally failing stealth rolls. Once the Thac0s even out, the shadowdancer probably does about half the damage of the fighter. Before that point, maybe 3/4ths. Definitely less. But, as I said, he can deal with tactical situations that the fighter can't, and he can do other neat thief skill stuff.
Now, that said, the shadowdancer is weak in mid BG1. But the neat thing is that mid BG1 is the easiest part of the game, so if I'm evaluating a character, I don't much care how strong they'll be then. It's early and late BG1 that are important from a character-strength perspective, and the shadowdancer does well at both those points.
'occasionally' failing stealth? SD won't reliably stealth during the day until level 5-6 with boots of stealth. between 1 and 4 without the boots, you'll fail far more often than you will succeed.
Making a mountain out of a mole hill. The damn kit is COOL!!! Isn't that the point?!
You can go invisible INSTANTLY and do it as much as you want! It's a good kit and good change to it. Sure the backstab multiplier could have stayed the same, but it's still gonna be useful for most of BG1 and all of BG2. @Jarrakul makes a good point about it being useful for most levels...
It seems to me everyone is trying to play this class like any other thief (assassin, bounty hunter, or generic) and not as a Shadow Dancer specifically. It's gonna play different than those other kits - and isn't that AWESOME! I mean what a rarity in an old game like this - to play it completely new: ...Stealth (or pray for stealth as happens), shoot an arrow, stealth, move, shoot an arrow, rinse and repeat...stealth, disrupt mage (maybe stab with a poisoned dagger?), run and stealth (or pray), rinse and repeat...kite big bad fighter far, far away, stealth (or pray) and keep running, perhaps hit him in the back (and run again?), r and r....and this is just the combat...WAY more fun and involved than a typical thief where you have to run away (and hope they don't follow) and hide before stealthing again....Sure there are Invisibility potions, but if you want to go that route, why choose a SD in the first place??? or use it as a backup if HiPS fails...
I have to say the SD is more useful (or at least AS useful, considering he has thief skills) as a monk in the early part, and once he gets his levels up and can either hide or open locks or detect/disarm traps he becomes as good if not better than any generic thief. He's no longer OP - just like people complained about. I wouldn't say it's under-powered either, just not nearly as strong as power-gamers would like...which I get, cause I'm a power-gamer too. But if I need that extra power I'll EE:Keeper my dualed fighter->SD and be content or wait till level 9/10 of SD to dual to fighter. I mean most everyone here seems like they play BG2 anyway, so BG1 characters are gonna be imported, right? So a SD 10 -> Fighter isn't unreasonable...
And you gotta figure most people don't run solo right? There are so MANY thieves on the Sword Coast that you can't walk across an old forest without tripping over one or two...just saying, you can sustain a little weakness in certain skills to get other skills...Oh, and for the evil (or my case CHAOTIC GOOD) characters, have you tried a little burglary? What? There's guards around that nice looking chest of gold and goodies? No problem. Open and disappear... Just saying...
I will say it's a bit weird that the BS progression doesn't follow the traditional thieves progression, but it really makes sense, cause the HiPS is potentially so game-breaking by being OP and if you had it follow the usual rate SD->Fighter duals would be the new Kensage...
Jethro you seem to be missing the point - the class is supposed to be played like any other thief kit (exept swashbuckler) because while he does have unique traits the core gameplay is still the same: stealth, move in backstab, restealth and repeat until done. Every thief that invests in MS/HiS works like this.
The difference is that he gives up some of his killing power and traps for an easier and more convenient escape mechanism. This convenience only lasts until other thief types get their hands on a substantial amount of invis potions and items - some may say - you have infinite invis potions, and yes, you do, however an assassin wont need to restealth during every fight as he'll be strong enough to deal with enemies outright. And during those hard fights where he needs to restealth, he'll have more than enough items before mid BG2 to emulate the shadowdancers style for his purposes. And traps. And posion.
An SD can never emulate what was cut from him - traps, multipliers or poisons. Thats why I just don't find him fun in comparison. Dodging a few spells for free in the early game doesn't make up for it.
Comments
Issues that have the most likes will be looked at first.
It looks like Shadowdancer problem will have priority.
Good, it'd be a shame if it the multipliers were left like they are. And it makes sense if it's a top issue - a lot of people want to play a fun class, both in BG1 and BG2. Evading most attacks but doing no damage for the first 9 levels isn't fun.
Watch the Shadows: For five rounds after activating this ability, every time the Shadowdancer enters stealth all enemies in the area must make a saving throw versus spell or flee in terror for the next three rounds.
Blindside: After attacking a enemy from stealth, that enemy receives a four point penalty to their AC for the next four rounds.
Or something like that.
Regardless, the tweak, or "feature request" demands minimal effort on the developers' part, I am sure.
But this game is made for a very niche market, and the feedback you get (from a lot of first-hand testers too) here is hundreds of times more valuable than the one you'd get on the boards of a blockbuster multi-platform title..
I wouldn't expect to see any movement on this officially, they've got much bigger fish to fry, even if they did value the opinions expressed here.
I realize I'm stealing @enneract's thunder a little bit, but there are other changes that I'm curious to hear reactions about.
@Inflitrator @enneract Congrats.
If only I could get people to pay this kind of attention to the Wizard Slayer - been trying for years (example: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/comment/373923/#Comment_373923). I need to use your model to drum up better publicity. lol
It has no real use against spellcasters and its magic resist is a joke compared to disadvantage it suffers from not using magic items.
Fortunately there is Inquisitor kit for paladins. It's the real Wizard Slayer in game for me
It's just unfortunate working as intended is massively useless.
I do wonder if they'll still get the HLA traps, though, given their lack of set snare. It's certainly not impossible, as bards get them, but it would be a little odd. Of course, it'd be hard to make up for losing Spike Trap, so maybe it's best not to meddle.
0 xp: fighter: 19, ranger 19, shadowdancer 16
2,000 xp: fighter 18, ranger 19, shadowdaner 16
2,500 xp: fighter 18, ranger 18, shadowdancer 15
4,000 xp: fighter 15, ranger 18, shadowdancer 15
5,000 xp: fighter 15, ranger 17, shadowdanger 15
8,000 xp: fighter 14, ranger 16, shadowdancer 15
10,000 xp: fighter 14, ranger 16, shadowdancer 14
That's up to 4th/5th level. And, I should point out, more-or-less reflects what I was saying. Starts off better (and stays better than the ranger for a while), stays roughly equal for awhile afterwards. Of course the overall damage output is much lower, due to fewer attacks per round, slightly less damage per hit, and occasionally failing stealth rolls. Once the Thac0s even out, the shadowdancer probably does about half the damage of the fighter. Before that point, maybe 3/4ths. Definitely less. But, as I said, he can deal with tactical situations that the fighter can't, and he can do other neat thief skill stuff.
Now, that said, the shadowdancer is weak in mid BG1. But the neat thing is that mid BG1 is the easiest part of the game, so if I'm evaluating a character, I don't much care how strong they'll be then. It's early and late BG1 that are important from a character-strength perspective, and the shadowdancer does well at both those points.
You can go invisible INSTANTLY and do it as much as you want! It's a good kit and good change to it. Sure the backstab multiplier could have stayed the same, but it's still gonna be useful for most of BG1 and all of BG2. @Jarrakul makes a good point about it being useful for most levels...
It seems to me everyone is trying to play this class like any other thief (assassin, bounty hunter, or generic) and not as a Shadow Dancer specifically. It's gonna play different than those other kits - and isn't that AWESOME! I mean what a rarity in an old game like this - to play it completely new: ...Stealth (or pray for stealth as happens), shoot an arrow, stealth, move, shoot an arrow, rinse and repeat...stealth, disrupt mage (maybe stab with a poisoned dagger?), run and stealth (or pray), rinse and repeat...kite big bad fighter far, far away, stealth (or pray) and keep running, perhaps hit him in the back (and run again?), r and r....and this is just the combat...WAY more fun and involved than a typical thief where you have to run away (and hope they don't follow) and hide before stealthing again....Sure there are Invisibility potions, but if you want to go that route, why choose a SD in the first place??? or use it as a backup if HiPS fails...
I have to say the SD is more useful (or at least AS useful, considering he has thief skills) as a monk in the early part, and once he gets his levels up and can either hide or open locks or detect/disarm traps he becomes as good if not better than any generic thief. He's no longer OP - just like people complained about. I wouldn't say it's under-powered either, just not nearly as strong as power-gamers would like...which I get, cause I'm a power-gamer too. But if I need that extra power I'll EE:Keeper my dualed fighter->SD and be content or wait till level 9/10 of SD to dual to fighter. I mean most everyone here seems like they play BG2 anyway, so BG1 characters are gonna be imported, right? So a SD 10 -> Fighter isn't unreasonable...
And you gotta figure most people don't run solo right? There are so MANY thieves on the Sword Coast that you can't walk across an old forest without tripping over one or two...just saying, you can sustain a little weakness in certain skills to get other skills...Oh, and for the evil (or my case CHAOTIC GOOD) characters, have you tried a little burglary? What? There's guards around that nice looking chest of gold and goodies? No problem. Open and disappear... Just saying...
I will say it's a bit weird that the BS progression doesn't follow the traditional thieves progression, but it really makes sense, cause the HiPS is potentially so game-breaking by being OP and if you had it follow the usual rate SD->Fighter duals would be the new Kensage...
The difference is that he gives up some of his killing power and traps for an easier and more convenient escape mechanism. This convenience only lasts until other thief types get their hands on a substantial amount of invis potions and items - some may say - you have infinite invis potions, and yes, you do, however an assassin wont need to restealth during every fight as he'll be strong enough to deal with enemies outright. And during those hard fights where he needs to restealth, he'll have more than enough items before mid BG2 to emulate the shadowdancers style for his purposes. And traps. And posion.
An SD can never emulate what was cut from him - traps, multipliers or poisons. Thats why I just don't find him fun in comparison. Dodging a few spells for free in the early game doesn't make up for it.