With current characteristics is totally useless in BG1. Backstab x4 on level 25 is also good joke. He finaly get some backstab power in moment when is backstab power nearly useless. ( Almost all in ToB are immune )
Something like this look MUCH more reasonable:
Level 01-04: x1 (no multiplier) Level 05-12: x2* Level 13-19: x3 Level 20+: x4 ( *Normal Thief have x5 backstab on lvl 13! )
This might be better if backstab immunity is removed from the game.
Even if it were, I really don't think being able to reposition with HiPS is a good enough perk for the backstab to be so weak.
Especially the x1 multiplier. The Shadowdancer's stealth is going to be highly dependent on darkness and luck at those levels anyway. Let her shine a least a little when under the cover of night.
@enneract Sorry, I could have been clearer: it is not meant to be a high-damage class in terms of backstabbing. The Shadowdancer is meant to be incredibly mobile, dealing damage and then moving quickly out of range.
When @Dee gets back I'm sure he can respond with more accuracy, since he had a hand in designing and rebalancing the class -- I could be sticking my foot in my mouth here
The Shadowdancer fills a unique niche in the Thief kits. Assassins kill quickly (high damage backstabbing+poison), whereas Shadowdancers are evasive (as @LiamEsler mentioned), which will require players to develop new strategies on how to play this particular kit.
Since they can hide-in-plain-sight during melee, it seems like they'd become overpowered if they had access to higher backstab multipliers at lower levels. They'd also make un-kitted thieves obsolete, aside from not being able to set traps.
If his backstab abilities are useless, the Shadowdancer will just become a good class to dual from to become mostly invulnerable from anything that can't see through stealth + non-detection (SD-Wizard, SD-Warrior, SD-Cleric...) If his backstab abilities are too strong, the shadowdancer will just overshadow all regular thieves.
I really feel that the current implementation is slightly too weak damage-wise, and probably too strong "evasion-wise" (At least from the get go)
The current implementation is almost too good not to dual class with (IE : Staying a pure Shadow Dancer is, in most cases, useless : - You can't backstab well (=It's better to dual to fighter or mage to deal damage) - You don't get to use traps (=Your damage is going to stay low anyway) - You can HIPS reliably at level 5+, and can probably HIPS & open locks easily by level 10 (Why progress further than 5 or 10, then ?) - Your biggest ability is given at level 1
The Shadowdancer fills a unique niche in the Thief kits. Assassins kill quickly (high damage backstabbing+poison), whereas Shadowdancers are evasive (as @LiamEsler mentioned), which will require players to develop new strategies on how to play this particular kit.
Since they can hide-in-plain-sight during melee, it seems like they'd become overpowered if they had access to higher backstab multipliers at lower levels. They'd also make un-kitted thieves obsolete, aside from not being able to set traps.
What I suggested doesn't drastically change the way the SD operates. It only allows the player to harness his power while backstabbing is a viablie option. And not being able to set traps is a HUGE part of the thief kit - many encounters are trivial given time to set traps.
And an assassin can also hide in plain sight during melee - all you need is invis rings (several of them in game), other invis items or invis potions (which are arguably plentiful).
The SD has the luxury of not having to expand items at the cost of lower multipliers and inability to set traps or deal poison damage.
If his backstab abilities are useless, the Shadowdancer will just become a good class to dual from to become mostly invulnerable from anything that can't see through stealth + non-detection (SD-Wizard, SD-Warrior, SD-Cleric...) If his backstab abilities are too strong, the shadowdancer will just overshadow all regular thieves.
I really feel that the current implementation is slightly too weak damage-wise, and probably too strong "evasion-wise" (At least from the get go)
The current implementation is almost too good not to dual class with (IE : Staying a pure Shadow Dancer is, in most cases, useless : - You can't backstab well (=It's better to dual to fighter or mage to deal damage) - You don't get to use traps (=Your damage is going to stay low anyway) - You can HIPS reliably at level 5+, and can probably HIPS & open locks easily by level 10 (Why progress further than 5 or 10, then ?) - Your biggest ability is given at level 1
If you combine all these reasons, well...
Yeah, HIPS is always seems to be a difficult feature to manage well. In NWN2 Shadowdancer was just used as a splash class for HIPS at level 1 and then generally ignored afterwards. In Skyrim well...yeah. In the BG series also, dual/multiclassing generally trumps staying pure or kitted whichever combination you're thinking of. Maybe a Sorcerer but really, what else? Without drastic changes, probably the current implementation with some special HLAs is the best that can be done.
To prevent that, HIPS could improve with levels, as do all powerful skills in the game.
For example : At first level, there's a cooldown to the ability (IE : 5 rounds) Every 5 levels, that cooldown is lowered At level 20, the ability no longer has a cooldown (IE : Current implementation, 1 round)
Or : - Using HIPS is exhausting and will tire your character (Adds fatigue whenever you HIPS) - At level 10 : You have mastered the path of shadow, and can now HIPS without exhausting yourself.
Or : - HIPS can only be used once per day for every two shadow dancer levels you've taken - IE : A level 10 Shadow Dancer can HIPS 5 times per day, a level 20 Shadow Dancer can HIPS 10 times per day and so on.
Or : - At level 1, your character can attempt to hide in plain sight, but with a 45% chance of failure - At level 3, and every 3 levels there after, that penality is lowered by 5% (30% at level 5, 15% at level 10, 0% at level 15)
But the backstab damage of Shadowdancer should really be slightly improved over what it currently is.
I never played a SD yet and I only saw what people say about it on this forum.
But I always thought this class should have some penalty when it try to hide in plain sight. So I am agree with Aranthys' last proposition. But personally I would leave a penalty of 5 or 10% even at high level. And I would put as high level abilities some Illusion spells at least to replaced the traps abilities
I'm definitely in the camp that finds the class too weak damage-wise. Even if they're not the *main* damage dealer, I do like my characters to at least feel essential to the party, which I just don't see this iteration of the shadowdancer being.
And that's a shame, because the shadowdancer was probably the class I was most excited about. I'm not saying the shadowdancer needs to have the same multipliers as a regular thief, but being nine levels behind seems a bit much. A 5-6 level Backstab multiplier handicap, coupled with the inability to lay traps, should be more than enough to balance the class. Hell, I'd rather see them take away even more of the non-stealth skills rather than gimp the class' combat viability.
With current characteristics is totally useless in BG1. Backstab x4 on level 25 is also good joke. He finaly get some backstab power in moment when is backstab power nearly useless. ( Almost all in ToB are immune )
Something like this look MUCH more reasonable:
Level 01-04: x1 (no multiplier) Level 05-12: x2* Level 13-19: x3 Level 20+: x4 ( *Normal Thief have x5 backstab on lvl 13! )
If you know where to get XP in SoA, you can reach 4000000 even before chapter 7.
EDIT: Sorry, forgot that in my last BG2 run, I did Watcher's Keep in chapters 3 and 6 (the first 2 levels in 3 and the lasting ones in 6). But you can still getting the XP, you can get around 3500000 XP or more, or maybe less.
I think the trouble with the early levels is that you can't use the excuse "he's a thief, so he gets to fight worse but can do thief stuff" because you have to dump points into MS/Hide in order to make him work.
He basically brings nothing to the table early on, neither utility nor damage. You'd just have to sit on the sidelines for a big portion of BG1, and by the time his backstab mult kicked off in BG2, enemies would stop being affected by them.
Why wouldn't I take one level of SD and then just go pure assassin after that? Bet that'd be fun, multiple 7x stabs from the dark, no consumables or cooldowns used.
I think the trouble with the early levels is that you can't use the excuse "he's a thief, so he gets to fight worse but can do thief stuff" because you have to dump points into MS/Hide in order to make him work.
He basically brings nothing to the table early on, neither utility nor damage. You'd just have to sit on the sidelines for a big portion of BG1, and by the time his backstab mult kicked off in BG2, enemies would stop being affected by them.
Why wouldn't I take one level of SD and then just go pure assassin after that? Bet that'd be fun, multiple 7x stabs from the dark, no consumables or cooldowns used.
Another way to look at the current implementation of the Shadow Dancer would be to give it damage through utility & abilities :
- X/Day "Summon Shadow" ability - At low level, shadows that drain strength. At higher level, greater shadows that drain levels. - X/Day "Shadow Daze" ability - Save vs Spell or become confused for 5 rounds. Every 10 levels, the daze becomes harder to save against (Save vs Spell at -1 at level 10, -2 at level 20, -3 at level 30, -4 at level 40)
You could even give it a "Shadow Clone" ability at level 20, that would just be a copy of "Simulacrum"
Then, the low amount of backstab damage would become justified.
Something that I think people are missing is that the Shadowdancer starts with a net +10 skill points more than what a standard thief would receive, and can hide at will without having to duck around corners. Its smaller backstab and lack of trap-setting is the trade-off for what is essentially an active 50%+ miss chance.
The Shadowdancer is not intended for DPS or tanking; if you're trying to do that with this kit, you're using it wrong. The Shadowdancer is designed to be mobile and elusive; all of its abilities are geared toward disappearing before the enemy has a chance to attack.
That's pretty much all I'm going to say on the matter, at least for now. If you want high-damage backstabs, use the Assassin. If you want versatility, use the Thief. If you want melee competitiveness, use the Swashbuckler. If you want to sneak through an entire dungeon without taking a single hit, use the Shadowdancer.
EDIT: Incidentally, if you want a Shadowdancer with high DPS, all you have to do is edit the values in backstab.2da.
Something that I think people are missing is that the Shadowdancer starts with a net +10 skill points more than what a standard thief would receive, and can hide at will without having to duck around corners. Its smaller backstab and lack of trap-setting is the trade-off for what is essentially an active 50%+ miss chance.
The Shadowdancer is not intended for DPS or tanking; if you're trying to do that with this kit, you're using it wrong. The Shadowdancer is designed to be mobile and elusive; all of its abilities are geared toward disappearing before the enemy has a chance to attack.
That's pretty much all I'm going to say on the matter, at least for now. If you want high-damage backstabs, use the Assassin. If you want versatility, use the Thief. If you want melee competitiveness, use the Swashbuckler. If you want to sneak through an entire dungeon without taking a single hit, use the Shadowdancer.
EDIT: Incidentally, if you want a Shadowdancer with high DPS, all you have to do is edit the values in backstab.2da.
Ok I get what you're saying, but we're still left with the problem that other thieves/assassins can easily circumvent their lack of HIPS with items that are accessible quite early in BG2 and later on you've got stacks of them.
Essentially the SD traded off a lot of his power (backstab mults) and utility (traps) for something that other thieves can do with just a LITTLE effort (invis rings, invis potions, or a level 2 illusion spell any mage can cast.
I chain stabbed my way a couple of times through BG2, both with thief and assassin, without getting hit a lot of times, why would I trade damage, traps and poisons for a free invis potion or ring?
Something that I think people are missing is that the Shadowdancer starts with a net +10 skill points more than what a standard thief would receive, and can hide at will without having to duck around corners. Its smaller backstab and lack of trap-setting is the trade-off for what is essentially an active 50%+ miss chance.
Its not only smaller backstab, Its ABSENCE backstab for whole BG1.
The Shadowdancer is not intended for DPS or tanking; if you're trying to do that with this kit, you're using it wrong. The Shadowdancer is designed to be mobile and elusive; all of its abilities are geared toward disappearing before the enemy has a chance to attack.
What is the point of that? Even normal thief can hide and explore whole map. Next we have, spell invisibility, improved invisibility, ring of invisibility ( and even more things in BG2 ) to get advantage in combat. So where are Shadowdancer benefits?
"Now you see me, and now not. If i hit you no one care" ( because i dont have any backstab and even with +4 to hit my thaco, damage and APR sucks. )
If is Shadowdancer only advantage "hard to be hit" so it is absolutely not worthy of all that he lost.
Because it's not a free invis potion or ring; it's unlimited. And it's instant, after the cool-down. A character with immunity to poison isn't less powerful than a character without immunity to poison simply because the non-immune character can drink an Antidote.
I say again: the shadowdancer is not intended for DPS. If you're trying to be as powerful as an Assassin with damage, you're using it wrong.
Comments
With current characteristics is totally useless in BG1.
Backstab x4 on level 25 is also good joke. He finaly get some backstab power in moment when is backstab power nearly useless.
( Almost all in ToB are immune )
Something like this look MUCH more reasonable:
Level 01-04: x1 (no multiplier)
Level 05-12: x2*
Level 13-19: x3
Level 20+: x4
( *Normal Thief have x5 backstab on lvl 13! )
Note:
Are you trying trick us, @Dee ?
Even if it were, I really don't think being able to reposition with HiPS is a good enough perk for the backstab to be so weak.
Especially the x1 multiplier. The Shadowdancer's stealth is going to be highly dependent on darkness and luck at those levels anyway. Let her shine a least a little when under the cover of night.
Now, it is a class that maybe can move to a different part of the fight, and employ it's horrible thief THAC0 and APR to do more or less nothing.
When @Dee gets back I'm sure he can respond with more accuracy, since he had a hand in designing and rebalancing the class -- I could be sticking my foot in my mouth here
Level 1-5: no mult
Level 6-12: 2x
Level 13-19: 3x
Level 20+: 4x
Or something similar would be far more suitable, while not being broken.
Since they can hide-in-plain-sight during melee, it seems like they'd become overpowered if they had access to higher backstab multipliers at lower levels. They'd also make un-kitted thieves obsolete, aside from not being able to set traps.
If his backstab abilities are too strong, the shadowdancer will just overshadow all regular thieves.
I really feel that the current implementation is slightly too weak damage-wise, and probably too strong "evasion-wise" (At least from the get go)
The current implementation is almost too good not to dual class with (IE : Staying a pure Shadow Dancer is, in most cases, useless :
- You can't backstab well (=It's better to dual to fighter or mage to deal damage)
- You don't get to use traps (=Your damage is going to stay low anyway)
- You can HIPS reliably at level 5+, and can probably HIPS & open locks easily by level 10 (Why progress further than 5 or 10, then ?)
- Your biggest ability is given at level 1
If you combine all these reasons, well...
What I suggested doesn't drastically change the way the SD operates. It only allows the player to harness his power while backstabbing is a viablie option. And not being able to set traps is a HUGE part of the thief kit - many encounters are trivial given time to set traps.
And an assassin can also hide in plain sight during melee - all you need is invis rings (several of them in game), other invis items or invis potions (which are arguably plentiful).
The SD has the luxury of not having to expand items at the cost of lower multipliers and inability to set traps or deal poison damage.
For example :
At first level, there's a cooldown to the ability (IE : 5 rounds)
Every 5 levels, that cooldown is lowered
At level 20, the ability no longer has a cooldown (IE : Current implementation, 1 round)
Or :
- Using HIPS is exhausting and will tire your character (Adds fatigue whenever you HIPS)
- At level 10 : You have mastered the path of shadow, and can now HIPS without exhausting yourself.
Or :
- HIPS can only be used once per day for every two shadow dancer levels you've taken
- IE : A level 10 Shadow Dancer can HIPS 5 times per day, a level 20 Shadow Dancer can HIPS 10 times per day and so on.
Or :
- At level 1, your character can attempt to hide in plain sight, but with a 45% chance of failure
- At level 3, and every 3 levels there after, that penality is lowered by 5% (30% at level 5, 15% at level 10, 0% at level 15)
But the backstab damage of Shadowdancer should really be slightly improved over what it currently is.
But I always thought this class should have some penalty when it try to hide in plain sight. So I am agree with Aranthys' last proposition. But personally I would leave a penalty of 5 or 10% even at high level.
And I would put as high level abilities some Illusion spells at least to replaced the traps abilities
Shadowdancer level 8: Thac0 17
Backstabbing Shadowdancer level 8: Thac0 13, x1 damage
Fighter level 8: Thac0 13, 2 attacks per round with specialization
The Shadowdancer isn't going to have skill points to do anything other than Stealth for a long, long, time (you need 200/200 to cap out).
So at this level, she's not a thief. Just a terrible, terrible fighter.
There is no point to the SD with 0 backstab multiplier, which means effectively all of BG1.
And that's a shame, because the shadowdancer was probably the class I was most excited about. I'm not saying the shadowdancer needs to have the same multipliers as a regular thief, but being nine levels behind seems a bit much. A 5-6 level Backstab multiplier handicap, coupled with the inability to lay traps, should be more than enough to balance the class. Hell, I'd rather see them take away even more of the non-stealth skills rather than gimp the class' combat viability.
EDIT: Sorry, forgot that in my last BG2 run, I did Watcher's Keep in chapters 3 and 6 (the first 2 levels in 3 and the lasting ones in 6). But you can still getting the XP, you can get around 3500000 XP or more, or maybe less.
He basically brings nothing to the table early on, neither utility nor damage. You'd just have to sit on the sidelines for a big portion of BG1, and by the time his backstab mult kicked off in BG2, enemies would stop being affected by them.
Why wouldn't I take one level of SD and then just go pure assassin after that? Bet that'd be fun, multiple 7x stabs from the dark, no consumables or cooldowns used.
- X/Day "Summon Shadow" ability - At low level, shadows that drain strength. At higher level, greater shadows that drain levels.
- X/Day "Shadow Daze" ability - Save vs Spell or become confused for 5 rounds.
Every 10 levels, the daze becomes harder to save against (Save vs Spell at -1 at level 10, -2 at level 20, -3 at level 30, -4 at level 40)
You could even give it a "Shadow Clone" ability at level 20, that would just be a copy of "Simulacrum"
Then, the low amount of backstab damage would become justified.
Very good ideas, especially that "Shadow Clone".
"Shadow armor" ( nearly same like "Ghost armor" ) is also option.
Right now Shadow Dancer dont have any role in party.
He is terrible tank.
He is terrible dps.
He is terrible backstaber.
All what can do, is be invisible.
How can this win fights in BG1 ?
EDIT: Looks like you got all three after all.
The Shadowdancer is not intended for DPS or tanking; if you're trying to do that with this kit, you're using it wrong. The Shadowdancer is designed to be mobile and elusive; all of its abilities are geared toward disappearing before the enemy has a chance to attack.
That's pretty much all I'm going to say on the matter, at least for now. If you want high-damage backstabs, use the Assassin. If you want versatility, use the Thief. If you want melee competitiveness, use the Swashbuckler. If you want to sneak through an entire dungeon without taking a single hit, use the Shadowdancer.
EDIT: Incidentally, if you want a Shadowdancer with high DPS, all you have to do is edit the values in backstab.2da.
Essentially the SD traded off a lot of his power (backstab mults) and utility (traps) for something that other thieves can do with just a LITTLE effort (invis rings, invis potions, or a level 2 illusion spell any mage can cast.
I chain stabbed my way a couple of times through BG2, both with thief and assassin, without getting hit a lot of times, why would I trade damage, traps and poisons for a free invis potion or ring?
"Now you see me, and now not. If i hit you no one care" ( because i dont have any backstab and even with +4 to hit my thaco, damage and APR sucks. )
If is Shadowdancer only advantage "hard to be hit" so it is absolutely not worthy of all that he lost.
I say again: the shadowdancer is not intended for DPS. If you're trying to be as powerful as an Assassin with damage, you're using it wrong.
Especially in BG1.