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All you wanted to know about Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear ("Adventure Y" previously)

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  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    Apples to oranges to you. Importing stats does not mean overhauling the story which is what different npcs would mean. The story in SoD is making that point irrelevant anyway and improving continuity. This should be looked at for the same reasons. It seems a pity they are adding a direct import for SoD, having party members leave dependent on the story if they didnt look at this.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited February 2016
    Don't try to speak for "everyone". BG2 is a classic, the NPC decisions where made to support the plot, I DON'T want it changed.

    AstroBryGuyThacoBellScooter
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    BG2 is a classic for many reasons but actually that doesnt mean it cant be improved. Changing starting stats to be consistent with your party in BG1 improves continuity as a whole. Im not advocating changing dialogue or starting npc locations but just that it respect your decisions when raising your characters in BG1 in the same way Beamdog carries over relationship flags with the new NPCs and carries over items.

    JuliusBorisov
  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    deltago said:

    They are not allowed to change Imoen, or any other NPC for that matter.

    They can explain how she becomes 8/7 mage/thief. And they will probably do that by removing her completely from the party for the duration of SoD.


    IIrc, what they couldnt do was changing the history. Changing stats is another matter, imho. Stats is something different than history.

    Anyway, I would like for BG 22 enhanced to remember what levels and weapon proficiencies I gave to my SoD party. Basically, I would like that my SoD party was tranferred to BG 2 the same way they end SoD. At least for the new NPCs like Neera, Dorn or Rasaad I am sure they can do it. After all they arent Bioware NPCs, but Beamdog ones.

    GrammarsaladGotural
  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    Mikey205 said:

    BG2 is a classic for many reasons but actually that doesnt mean it cant be improved. Changing starting stats to be consistent with your party in BG1 improves continuity as a whole. Im not advocating changing dialogue or starting npc locations but just that it respect your decisions when raising your characters in BG1 in the same way Beamdog carries over relationship flags with the new NPCs and carries over items.

    100% agree. They can keep history (of course, I wouldnt like it changed on any way). And starting in Irenicus dungeon with your true party would be great, but I can live without that. However, I think our party should be the same party with end SoD with, and not the same NPCs but with completely different proficiencies and levels. So, not a 8th level Dorn Blackguard proficient in Axes when Dorn finished SoD at 9th level proficient in 2HS, for example.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    And Xzar? I dualed him to cleric in BG1: are you going to reflect that in his BG2 story!? And Edwin? He is dead, which rather messes up the Thieves' Guild plot.

    If you are going to insist on consistency between BG1 and BG2, there are hundreds of possible plot variations to account for - you can't just apply a rule to one character and not others.

    I think the approach Beamdog is taking is absolutely the correct one - EXPLAINING the starting conditions of BG2, not changing them.

    NonnahswriterScooterdunbarkanisatha
  • TorinTorin Member Posts: 229
    Question I have not seen yet is this:
    Will new companions from SoD be added to Bg2EE along with more quests for them?

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,698
    edited February 2016
    @Torin

    "1. No new companions in BG2:EE
    ...Yet.

    Which isn't to say there are plans to bring Corwin, Glint, and M'Khiin over to BGII:EE--to the best of my knowledge there aren't. But as Trent's presentation last night made clear (well, maybe not that clear with th echo thing, but if you were in the room it was clear), Beamdog embraces and listens to the fans. If the characters are seen to be popular, using whatever metrics the higher-ups do to measure that sort of thing, it's possible roles could be expanded into BGII:EE.

    I don't want to set up any unrealistic expectations here: as it stands at this moment, 7:27am Edmonton time July 10,, there are no plans to carry the characters over.

    But if after playing Siege of Dragonspear you *wanted* them to be carried over, make some noise, let people know. Stranger things have happened and I think I could be quite happy writing Glint and M'Khiin for the rest of my life."

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/655131/#Comment_655131

    @Fardragon The talk is about characters that are in your party at the end of SoD and in the same time available in BG2EE. So, Xzar is out of question. As for your Edwin, who was killed in BG1, he's out of this question as well, because he is not in your party at the end of SoD, and thus his BG2 version should be a vanilla one, unchanged. If your Edwin is just dead in the process of the final fight, there's nothing bad in him returning in BG2.

    The talk is about characters whom you saw essential for you in BG1 (and thus developed them and had all the way till the end) and who reappear in BG2.

    No plot variations are needed, only a fix to stats, proficiencies and spells of several NPCs if one condition is met - you have them in your final SoD save.

    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
    helmo1977ValamirCleaver
  • TorinTorin Member Posts: 229
    I hope they at least explain what happened to these new companions that they don't show up in BG2EE.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited February 2016
    I'm not talking about Xzar and Edwin as party members - I'm talking about their role in BG quests. If Xzar dual classed to cleric at level two, then in his BG story he should be a cleric, irrespective of if he was in your party at the end of BG1 or not.

    "In the party" is purely an artefact of game mechanics, meaningless with respect to the story.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    bengoshi said:

    @Torin

    "1. No new companions in BG2:EE
    ...Yet.

    Which isn't to say there are plans to bring Corwin, Glint, and M'Khiin over to BGII:EE--to the best of my knowledge there aren't. But as Trent's presentation last night made clear (well, maybe not that clear with th echo thing, but if you were in the room it was clear), Beamdog embraces and listens to the fans. If the characters are seen to be popular, using whatever metrics the higher-ups do to measure that sort of thing, it's possible roles could be expanded into BGII:EE.

    I don't want to set up any unrealistic expectations here: as it stands at this moment, 7:27am Edmonton time July 10,, there are no plans to carry the characters over.

    But if after playing Siege of Dragonspear you *wanted* them to be carried over, make some noise, let people know. Stranger things have happened and I think I could be quite happy writing Glint and M'Khiin for the rest of my life."

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/655131/#Comment_655131

    @Fardragon The talk is about characters that are in your party at the end of SoD and in the same time available in BG2EE. So, Xzar is out of question. As for your Edwin, who was killed in BG1, he's out of this question as well, because he is not in your party at the end of SoD, and thus his BG2 version should be a vanilla one, unchanged. If your Edwin is just dead in the process of the final fight, there's nothing bad in him returning in BG2.

    The talk is about characters whom you saw essential for you in BG1 (and thus developed them and had all the way till the end) and who reappear in BG2.

    No plot variations are needed, only a fix to stats, proficiencies and spells of several NPCs if one condition is met - you have them in your final SoD save.

    Ok. Should Jaheira, Minsc, and Viconia start BG2 with their BG1 stats (i.e., lower stats)? That will get people screaming "They've been nerfed!" really fast.

    What if I gave Edwin the Belt of Gender Bender in BG1 and kept him in the party until the end? Should he start BG2 as Edwina?

    Should the Nether Scroll cure her?


    What if I gave Dorn the Helm of Opposite Alignment in BG1? Should he be "good" in BG2?

    What about Viconia? Should the "conversion path" in her romance be skipped if I made her good in BG1?

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    But "in the party" matters to a lot of players in terms of agency when they're taking NPCs through the entire trilogy. Obviously there are limits to what can be done realistically but carrying over proficiency and stats would be a really nice touch since they are looking to improve consistency with this expansion.

    JuliusBorisovValamirCleaver
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 20,698


    Ok. Should Jaheira, Minsc, and Viconia start BG2 with their BG1 stats (i.e., lower stats)? That will get people screaming "They've been nerfed!" really fast.

    What if I gave Edwin the Belt of Gender Bender in BG1 and kept him in the party until the end? Should he start BG2 as Edwina?

    Should the Nether Scroll cure her?


    What if I gave Dorn the Helm of Opposite Alignment in BG1? Should he be "good" in BG2?

    What about Viconia? Should the "conversion path" in her romance be skipped if I made her good in BG1?
    There should be two variants of NPCs from BG1 who reappear in BG2:

    1) the vanilla ones - if you didn't have them at the end of SoD in the party
    2) the exact your NPCs from your party - if you did have them at the end of SoD in the party.

    This way, those who had Jaheira and Viconia in the party at the end of BG1, would get precisely them (without +3 DEX and +3 WIS vanilla bonuses), but with proficiencies and everything else set as the players wanted.

    Those who didn't have Jaheira and Viconia in the party at the end of BG1, would get vanilla BG2 versions.

    I think it will protect against "They've been nerfed!" opinions.

    As for the items, like the Belt of Gender Bender and the Helm of Opposite Alignment - the items can be taken off thanks to the Cure Curse spell, so no, the items on NPCs, inluding the cursed ones, shouldn't transfer and thus shouldn't affect alighnments and genders.

  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    Fardragon said:

    And Xzar? I dualed him to cleric in BG1: are you going to reflect that in his BG2 story!? And Edwin? He is dead, which rather messes up the Thieves' Guild plot.

    If you are going to insist on consistency between BG1 and BG2, there are hundreds of possible plot variations to account for - you can't just apply a rule to one character and not others.

    I think the approach Beamdog is taking is absolutely the correct one - EXPLAINING the starting conditions of BG2, not changing them.

    I didnt talk about the plot. I talked about stats/levels/proficiencies.

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    edited February 2016
    bengoshi said:


    Ok. Should Jaheira, Minsc, and Viconia start BG2 with their BG1 stats (i.e., lower stats)? That will get people screaming "They've been nerfed!" really fast.

    What if I gave Edwin the Belt of Gender Bender in BG1 and kept him in the party until the end? Should he start BG2 as Edwina?

    Should the Nether Scroll cure her?


    What if I gave Dorn the Helm of Opposite Alignment in BG1? Should he be "good" in BG2?

    What about Viconia? Should the "conversion path" in her romance be skipped if I made her good in BG1?
    There should be two variants of NPCs from BG1 who reappear in BG2:

    1) the vanilla ones - if you didn't have them at the end of SoD in the party
    2) the exact your NPCs from your party - if you did have them at the end of SoD in the party.

    This way, those who had Jaheira and Viconia in the party at the end of BG1, would get precisely them (without +3 DEX and +3 WIS vanilla bonuses), but with proficiencies and everything else set as the players wanted.

    Those who didn't have Jaheira and Viconia in the party at the end of BG1, would get vanilla BG2 versions.

    I think it will protect against "They've been nerfed!" opinions.
    What if I like that Bioware decided to change Minsc's favored enemy from Gnolls to Vampire? The former is useless in BG2, so it keeps his ranger ability relevant.

    If I like to play with Minsc, Jaheira, and Viconia, I'd be forced to ditch them before the final save if I want to get the "upgraded" stats versions in BG2. So, I would have a choice between "nerfed" companions compared to the BG2 originals or not getting to play BG1 with my preferred party.

    Why would that protect against "nerf" complaints? I think it would encourage them.
    bengoshi said:

    The talk is about characters whom you saw essential for you in BG1 (and thus developed them and had all the way till the end) and who reappear in BG2.

    Just because an NPC wasn't in the party at the final battle doesn't mean they weren't "essential". Maybe Minsc got chunked sacrificing himself to save CHARNAME's life in the Candlekeep Catacombs, and out of respect for his companion's noble act, CHARNAME did not ask the "omnipresent authority figure" to hit the reload button. Why is it less jarring for Minsc to then appear in BG2 than Jaheira to not have 2 pips in dual-wielding?

    Scooter
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    @AstroBryGuy Ideally that is actually exactly what I'd want, but I think its unrealistic to expect it. What a lot of people want regarding proficiencies and stats is an improvement in continuity for those you bring with you in the party and I think that is something Beamdog could deliver.

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,716
    Well, Beamdog CAN change the NPC stats. They did so with Quayle. And, for Pete's sake, any lawyer can go up to Bioware and talk with them based upon that.

    I don't think the nerfed stats would be a problem. It don't need to be. All Beamdog need to do is upgrade the BG1 stats. There you go. It's not rocket science.

    BG2 should check the NPCs you end SoD with to estabilish who is locked up with you. If none of them are available in BG2, drop Minsc and Jaheira. No rocket science either.

    As for possible plot roles for killed NPCs: there are two spells called Raise Dead and Resurrection. It's not that hard to check the NPC condition and add a dialogue about it. In my game Minsc was killed by the Amnish Guard because he turned hostile seeing Edwin as we come back from Dynaheir's murder. A good explanation for why he doesn't remember the fact and, you know, kill you. He can even say that he was ressed and went to the stronghold to rescue Dynaheir's body and she was later killed by Irenicus (he states that Dynaheir's spirit is trapped in the Chateau IIRC). Again: rocket science.

    Come on, Beamdog. Hire me. :blush:

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414
    edited February 2016
    @Mikey205 - True on that being unrealistic (too much potential changing of the storyline). I just didn't see why NPCs you don't carry to the battle with Sarevok can't be considered "essential".

    However, what about this concern if BG1 stats and proficiencies get carried over:
    What if I like that Bioware decided to change Minsc's favored enemy from Gnolls to Vampire? The former is useless in BG2, so it keeps his ranger ability relevant.

    If I like to play with Minsc, Jaheira, and Viconia, I'd be forced to ditch them before the final save if I want to get the "upgraded" stats versions in BG2. So, I would have a choice between "nerfed" companions compared to the BG2 originals or not getting to play BG1 with my preferred party.
    You might be happy with Minsc's favored enemy being Gnolls in BG2 and Jaheira having 14 Dex, but not everyone would be.

    Scooter
  • bleusteelbleusteel Member Posts: 510
    Raduziel said:



    ...

    I don't think the nerfed stats would be a problem. It don't need to be. All Beamdog need to do is upgrade the BG1 stats. There you go. It's not rocket science.

    ...

    I like this idea a lot. Just make the BG1 NPC stats match the vanilla BG2 stats. Then, if the NPC is in your BG1/SoD final save, copy the final save stats to the BG2 NPC creature.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    helmo1977 said:

    Fardragon said:

    And Xzar? I dualed him to cleric in BG1: are you going to reflect that in his BG2 story!? And Edwin? He is dead, which rather messes up the Thieves' Guild plot.

    If you are going to insist on consistency between BG1 and BG2, there are hundreds of possible plot variations to account for - you can't just apply a rule to one character and not others.

    I think the approach Beamdog is taking is absolutely the correct one - EXPLAINING the starting conditions of BG2, not changing them.

    I didnt talk about the plot. I talked about stats/levels/proficiencies.
    Which certainly effect the plot when a character could be a cleric instead of a necromancer. But stats are a tool, that seve the plot (Minsc has high strength and low int for example) they do not exist in isolation from the story.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Mikey205 said:

    But "in the party" matters to a lot of players in terms of agency when they're taking NPCs through the entire trilogy. Obviously there are limits to what can be done realistically but carrying over proficiency and stats would be a really nice touch since they are looking to improve consistency with this expansion.

    Well, no NPCs will be in the party at the end of SoD (Irenicus' agents ambush the protagonist alone, after long farewell discussions, curtesy of Avalone) so that distinction is irelevant.

  • helmo1977helmo1977 Member Posts: 364
    Fardragon said:

    helmo1977 said:

    Fardragon said:

    And Xzar? I dualed him to cleric in BG1: are you going to reflect that in his BG2 story!? And Edwin? He is dead, which rather messes up the Thieves' Guild plot.

    If you are going to insist on consistency between BG1 and BG2, there are hundreds of possible plot variations to account for - you can't just apply a rule to one character and not others.

    I think the approach Beamdog is taking is absolutely the correct one - EXPLAINING the starting conditions of BG2, not changing them.

    I didnt talk about the plot. I talked about stats/levels/proficiencies.
    Which certainly effect the plot when a character could be a cleric instead of a necromancer. But stats are a tool, that seve the plot (Minsc has high strength and low int for example) they do not exist in isolation from the story.
    In which way affects the plot me making Minse, for example, a thief? That is not the plot. It is a gameplay decisions the player makes. The plot is exactly the same. Or having 2 pips in Axes instead of whatever?

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    @AstroBryGuy My preferred option would be for game export to work that way for companions bringing them forward. And individual character imports to allow default NPCs.

    @Fardragon His playthrough was a long tome ago but regardless what I think they could do is have the final importable save take place before any departures of chars that can be carried forward. You can then import that save into BG2 with your party carried forward.

    On Xzar clerics get lots of dead raising spells so not exactly story breaking in BG2 and he could have recovered his mage casting abilities. Also I dont think a minor inconsistency on an NPC in BG2 should affect whether we can import stats and choices on party members we can carry on with.

    JuliusBorisovValamirCleaver
  • MrSextonMrSexton Member Posts: 374
    If you feel strongly about certain stats, all you have to do is use DungeonKeeper. Problem solved and everybody is happy (and a lot less work for Beamdog as well).

  • ValamirCleaverValamirCleaver Member Posts: 184
    MrSexton said:

    If you feel strongly about certain stats, all you have to do is use DungeonKeeper.

    I might be missing something, but what direct relevance does the game Dungeon Keeper have for the stats of the Baldur's Gate characters?...

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    bengoshi said:

    @Torin

    "1. No new companions in BG2:EE
    ...Yet.

    Which isn't to say there are plans to bring Corwin, Glint, and M'Khiin over to BGII:EE--to the best of my knowledge there aren't. But as Trent's presentation last night made clear (well, maybe not that clear with th echo thing, but if you were in the room it was clear), Beamdog embraces and listens to the fans. If the characters are seen to be popular, using whatever metrics the higher-ups do to measure that sort of thing, it's possible roles could be expanded into BGII:EE.

    I don't want to set up any unrealistic expectations here: as it stands at this moment, 7:27am Edmonton time July 10,, there are no plans to carry the characters over.

    But if after playing Siege of Dragonspear you *wanted* them to be carried over, make some noise, let people know. Stranger things have happened and I think I could be quite happy writing Glint and M'Khiin for the rest of my life."

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/655131/#Comment_655131

    THIS!

    I really hope it's popular enough for a BG2EE expansion _and_ for some of the SoD RPCs to be brought over. BG2 could use more companions. :)

    ValamirCleaverrorikonJuliusBorisovkaguana
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414

    bengoshi said:

    @Torin

    "1. No new companions in BG2:EE
    ...Yet.

    Which isn't to say there are plans to bring Corwin, Glint, and M'Khiin over to BGII:EE--to the best of my knowledge there aren't. But as Trent's presentation last night made clear (well, maybe not that clear with th echo thing, but if you were in the room it was clear), Beamdog embraces and listens to the fans. If the characters are seen to be popular, using whatever metrics the higher-ups do to measure that sort of thing, it's possible roles could be expanded into BGII:EE.

    I don't want to set up any unrealistic expectations here: as it stands at this moment, 7:27am Edmonton time July 10,, there are no plans to carry the characters over.

    But if after playing Siege of Dragonspear you *wanted* them to be carried over, make some noise, let people know. Stranger things have happened and I think I could be quite happy writing Glint and M'Khiin for the rest of my life."

    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/655131/#Comment_655131

    THIS!

    I really hope it's popular enough for a BG2EE expansion _and_ for some of the SoD RPCs to be brought over. BG2 could use more companions. :)
    Well, if Beamdog decides not to do it, that's what the modding community is for! I'm sure someone will write a Glint in BG2 mod. :smile:

  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,414

    MrSexton said:

    If you feel strongly about certain stats, all you have to do is use DungeonKeeper.

    I might be missing something, but what direct relevance does the game Dungeon Keeper have for the stats of the Baldur's Gate characters?...

    Guessing he meant EE Keeper.

    rorikon
  • ValamirCleaverValamirCleaver Member Posts: 184
    I'm not sure how one could easily confuse "Dungeon" & "EE", they look nothing alike. Neither does "Shadow" & "EE"...

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