holy smite and unholy blight maybe?
also deva and planetar and the fallen version of them.
good or evil those people are fighting for their life and for a cause.
to tell that a good oriented caster can not cast a spell that damage or kill or that an evil one can not cast one that heal and protect it like to say that keldorn can use his sword, but without taking it out of the scabbard as he is good but the blade of a sword is damaging so evil.
by the way i, in rl, agree with this, following mahatma gandhi's teaching, i believe that if you plant an apple seed you will never gather oranges, that the action is deeply tied with the result, you can not use an evil action, harming people, to reach a good goal.
but this is a completely different matter, if we want to play the game we have to use violence, harm and kill people in that fictional reality.
what is the difference between confusing, stunning or webbing foe so your party fighter can kill them and kill them yourself with a big ball of fire? is a mafia boss less evil of the assassin he send to kill, even if he never kills or harm anyone himself?
so i think that beyond the spells i mentioned before, that are alignment restricted by game design, there are only few spells that casters of some alignments should not use. summon demons and summon undeads are imo among them and even if my good parties summon undeads, i rp it as they would act more or less like golems, bones animated by magic, not actual souls of dead people enslaved to control the bones that were their bodies, and i never gate in demons.
also summoning in general can be seen as an evil action if we assume that actual beings are somehow teleported to the battle field, enslaved, and used as a meat shield, being them animals or creatures with more intelligence like gnolls. slavery is evil.
also here i rp that like the simulacrum clones the creatures summoned are not real ones but temporary ones, without a real conscience, created by magic.
and this in spite that for call woodland beings and call animals the spell descriptions clearly state the opposite.
other spells that imo good oriented casters should probably not use are flash to stone and imprisonment.
to cage a sentient being into a stone statue or somewhere behind the ground seems to me very similar to torture, and torturing is surely evil, is well beyond killing an enemy you fight.
i use them, and i always rp good, even if sometimes use neural charnames, but only as temporary means of taking an enemy out of the battle field (and to farm xp ), then i ALWAYS cast stone to flesh or freedom and kill them.
those are my 2 cents about the matter, as i am somehow a power gamer that cares much about rp issues.
and it is my very personal take on it, as i strongly believe that every player has to play in the way that gives to him more fun.
so even if i disagree with @Jimstrom about good characters not using spells that kill or harm and evil ones spells that are actually beneficial i see nothing wrong in his approach to the matter.
and i posted mine so he can maybe help him to define what spells a caster of a certain alignment should use. beyond using undeads and demons, things that he already mentioned, i think that all the spells that involve an enslavement of a sentient being and/or torture should maybe only be used by evil casters.
Never thought of RP-ing spells by alignment, seems interesting.
About summoning spells, I thought there was a difference between the animal/monster summoning spells and the elemental summoning spells : while the animals/monsters summons come from the material plane and die if they are killed (...) during the spell duration, I think that elementals are only "banished" upon death and are returned to their elemental plane (I don't know why I thought this, the description doesn't say so).
In general, I'd say that charm/illusion/abjuration spells fit the "good" alignment sphere, while necromancy spells obviously tend more towards evil.
I don't have an opinion about evocation & conjuration spells, as @gorgonzola said, in a sense, if we prevent good aligned mages to use damaging spells, then good aligned warriors shouldn't use weapons (or at least slashing weapons).
It's always difficult these kind of discussions as we touch upon morals, and morality is a very subjective stance.
For instance, applying our 21st century morals to a medieval/magical era, where wars, monsters and violence is omnipresent, doesn't make much sense. Plus, it hurts gameplay since the game IS about killing stuff to get power/gear/XP and advancing in the storyline.
It would be different if you could progress in the game by capturing/surrendering (sentient) enemies instead of killing them, or solving encounters peacefully by convincing/threatening the opponents. There are very few such possibilities accross the game.
I've done a pacifist run recently, it was very interesting and fun, but it really limits the number of quests you can finish (or even start) and its more about cheesing encounters & scripts than real roleplay.
That being said, and back to topic, roleplaying your spellbook seems like a great idea, and as long as you are not too "hardcore" with the dichotomy between right & wrong, good & evil, I think it can become a fun way to roleplay your spellcasters.
Instead of "this spell is good, this one is evil", I'd probably more RP it as "this spellcaster is specialized in aiding himself/others, this one is specialized in deceiving enemies and manipulating reality", etc.
To take some of your examples:
- Aerie would be focused on healing spells, mage abjuration spells, party & self buffs (protection/healing spheres)
- Jan would be focused on enchantment & illusion spells, obviously, plus maybe some alteration spells?
- Anomen would obviously use spells from the Protection and Combat spheres mostly
- I haven't played Nalia a lot, so I'm not positive about her personality, but she doesn't strike me as as "gentle" as Aerie or Imoen for example. Good, sure, naive, true, but gentle, not particularly. She probably wouldn't hesitate to cast fireballs at monsters threatening the commoners she thinks she's here to help (she feels hypocrite to me but whatever)
Great decisions, you missunderstand me though, I have no problem seeing lawful good warriors use weapons they are warriors trained to defend and protect.
Dynaheir is a wychlaran witch invoker, so her not using magic missile and fireballs would be out of character imo even though she is lawful good.
When it comes to Aerie she probably learned to defend herself from teaching's from Quayle he himself an illusionis, so i probably sneak in some illusionary spells in Aeries book too. She is also a circus performer so probably some flashy yet unharmful spells would be more fitting to her reportoire.
Xan is mainly an enchanter and should focus on those spells, and probably some abjuration spells to protect himself, i can also see him chuck away flame and acid arrows since we are all doomed anyway.
Edwin always prefer to let other people do his work, so summoning is right up his alley.
Xzar is obviously a necromancer and should focus on spells concerning death and decay.
Evil clerics may also heal (Cure wounds is concidered a necromancy spell after all) but are more focused on offensive spells.
Imoen is trained with bow and arrow, and would probably have no problem flinging magic arrows and flame arrows around.
Same with Nalia who got a hatred for slavers (and maybe some authority).
Valygar is bound by his spells by blood, and even though he don't like it, might as well use em if it means he can end his bloodline.
Bards i don't see throw around to much offensive spells, and if they do it is probably something to incapcitate or slow down targets while they run away. Now illusionary spells seem more bardlike, i can imagine Garrick turning invisible and playing his music.
Branwen and Yeslick are both warrior priiests and should focus on the combat speheres, spells like strentght of one, draw upion holy might and similar spells. Yeslick is more defensive though and branwen is slightly more offensive.
Tiax have probably no qualms what so ever to summoning undead (hell he even have a summon ghast ability)
I would also like to try a random weapon challenge to use equipment i normaly would not use. Anyone having any exprience with this? And how would you make it doable.
if you play vanilla and have a little experience there should be no problem.
the game has been soloed in poverty runs, where only a not enchanted staff is allowed (obviously you have to be a caster to do it as some enemies are immune to normal weapons).
also if you play tactics mod the starting dungeon is very hard and there you lack of good weapons until you defeat ilich and his party, but to reach them you have to fight some groups of mages and fighters instead of the usual goblins, and ilich and his mates are very tought (there is a monk with quivering palm, a lev 19 cleric that calls a fallen deva and ilich himself is a berseker that has a special spell with aoe that make the people weak and fatigued.
still is possible to beat them, a lot of players have done it at the time that mod was the most used to rise the challenge. good tactics are more important then good weapons.
so whatever type of weapon you use there is no problem in beating the game, to chose weapon that you have never used can only make you a better player as it compels you to play better.
give it a try, chose weapon types that you normally don't use and don't go straight for the strongest weapon of that type, you will have fun...
the game has been soloed in poverty runs, where only a not enchanted staff is allowed (obviously you have to be a caster to do it as some enemies are immune to normal weapons).
Yeah, poverty runs can be fun!
I've tried it with Sorcerer (obviously), Totemic Druid (summons, yay), Monk (problematic), and Cleric/Thief (in LoB even, but got bored at some point in bg2).
I can't remember if Monk can clear the whole game without items though (fists are considered non magical in BG1, and only go up to +3 enchantment level, so I don't think the Ravager in ToB can be beaten)
EDIT: Although theoretically possible, I don’t see how a monk would be able to kill Sarevok without any gear/potions. Since Sarevok comes hasted, not even hit&run tactics would work I guess.
And since Sarevok’s saves are set to 1, you can’t even disable him with stunning blows/blindness (DMM), even with heavy reloading.
Well, the thing is, without any equipment, monk's final combat stats are underwhelming at best:
- AC 0 (taking into account 18 starting DEX, +1 from Tome, +2 from DuHM)
- thac0: 10 (13 base, -3 from 20 STR under DuHM, since there is no possibility to grab the STR tome), effective thac0 is 6 if attacking from stealth, and that's only for a max of 2 turns relying on DuHM.
- 2 APR, max 80 HP
- damage: 1d10+8 (from 20 STR)
- max stealth points (at lvl8 & with 21 DEX under DuHM+dex tome) = 125 points (so only around 62,5 average stealth)
Sarevok, on the other hand, is a lvl15 fighter with OP saving throws & gear on top of it:
- 135 HP
- AC: -5
- 90% resistance to Fire / Cold (relevant for SSM or DMM)
- APR 4 if I'm not mistaken, hasted movement too
- effective thac0: -9 IIRC
- Saving throws set to 1 (so they can't fail unless you can apply a penalty, which the monk cannot do)
Which means:
- Sarevok hits 95% of the time (only misses on a crit)
- stealthed monk only hits 50% of the time (11 or better)
- Sarevok's saving throws make Stunning Blow or Blindness useless
- Even with SSM and accounting special fire abilities (Fireshield etc.), the 90% fire resistance makes it meaningless
- a DMM however brings -3 AC to the table (irrelevant given Sarevok's huge thac0), but also another cast of Vampiric Touch (4d6 magical damage).
I think going for evil bhaalspawn final abilities (2 Vampiric Touch instead of DuHM) could be a better idea, with loads of reloading, a DMM can - in theory, with loads of reloads - take out half of Sarevok's HP with Vampiric Touches only (72 HP).
Still, that leaves at least 60 HP to be taken out with attacks from the shadows, which is at least 5 or 6 hits in easy difficulty with max damage rolls, without support from DuHM.
is sarevok's haste permanent or it is possible to wait for it to expire?
the situation reminds me my fmt solo, starting from bg2 with tactics mod against the durgar parties in the irenicus dungeon and then against the ilich's party.
also there they had much better thac0 and hp, and they did hit for double damage as it was on insane.
even if it was not a poverty run he had at the beginning only the +1 dagger, and was not proficient in it, and not enchanted weapons, but was able to use at best every corner with low light to hide reliably and stab again as the one that was following him passed the corner without finding anyone as the fmt did hide in the split second he was out of sight.
but the durgars had his same speed, was not hasted. if the haste expire the monk is actually at advantage as is faster then sarevok, if not it is impossible to use that tactic, that with perfect timing is very effective against people that there is no way you can beat in a plain mlee fight.
my fmt took almost no hits and needed on average 3 stabs to kill each durgar (new groups spawn each time you rest) and a lot more to take down the boss.
a staff is needed for that as the long reach allows to have the distance from the one that chase you that allows to hide again behind the corner/pillar/whatever, but a mundane staff is usually allowed in a poverty run.
is sarevok's haste permanent or it is possible to wait for it to expire?
the situation reminds me my fmt solo, starting from bg2 with tactics mod against the durgar parties in the irenicus dungeon and then against the ilich's party.
also there they had much better thac0 and hp, and they did hit for double damage as it was on insane.
even if it was not a poverty run he had at the beginning only the +1 dagger, and was not proficient in it, and not enchanted weapons, but was able to use at best every corner with low light to hide reliably and stab again as the one that was following him passed the corner without finding anyone as the fmt did hide in the split second he was out of sight.
but the durgars had his same speed, was not hasted. if the haste expire the monk is actually at advantage as is faster then sarevok, if not it is impossible to use that tactic, that with perfect timing is very effective against people that there is no way you can beat in a plain mlee fight.
my fmt took almost no hits and needed on average 3 stabs to kill each durgar (new groups spawn each time you rest) and a lot more to take down the boss.
a staff is needed for that as the long reach allows to have the distance from the one that chase you that allows to hide again behind the corner/pillar/whatever, but a mundane staff is usually allowed in a poverty run.
Sarevok's haste can be dispelled, but won't expire no (at least not that i'm aware of).
Hit&run and stealth seems very very difficult, if not impossible, since Sarevok will be faster, and the monk's stealth will be average only.
Plus, the temple is not easy to maneuver around, especially with all the traps near the columns (although they can be triggered beforehand, so that they won't affect you during the fight itself), and you can't leave the temple once the fight has started, so no tactical retreat either.
Also: monks can't use staves For a poverty run, they'd get a club instead I suppose (so no long reach, but can put 1 pip in single weapon fighting for better AC / crits)
if the haste does not expire the tactic suggested is impossible, you can not hide from who outruns you.
is also impossible to run until he try to hit, hit him before his next attack and run again as he has too much apr.
The haste does not expire, even though it can be dispelled. But I'm not sure I agree that it wouldn't work. I'm not sure Sarevok's APR is that high.
I can see it working with great timing. If you paused right after breaking invisibility, you would only be within his melee range for a few frames before you could scurry away and dart behind a pillar to hide. Sarevok's APR in SCS is 3 (2 listed in Near Infinity, 3 from Haste, and I think no proficiency bonuses because his class is "SAREVOK" instead of "fighter"), and with a speed factor of 4 (5 from his weapon, -1 from his 4 pips in two-handed swords), he should take more than half a second to make his first attack roll, which sounds like more than enough time for a monk to run away and hide.
In Near Infinity, Sarevok has two pips in Single-Weapon Style instead of Two-Handed Weapon Style, but his "two-handed sword" is actually coded as a single-handed weapon, at least in SCS (probably because his sprite wields it with one hand). His "one-handed two-handed sword with one-handed pips" in SCS means that he gets a +2 bonus to AC, rather than a -2 bonus to speed factor.
Sarevok's weapon range is 2, just like a monk's fists or a staff, and their movement rates should be fairly comparable. Sarevok is hasted, but his sprite has a standard, sluggish BG1 speed unless that's been improved, while the monk, albeit unhasted, has a 3-point movement rate bonus in BG1. Even if you fail to hide, you should be able to outrun him until your stealth timer resets and you can hide again. It's possible his timing might be just right and he could land some hits on you even while running away, but usually when one melee critter is chasing someone down, the former gets VERY few windows of opportunity to make an attack roll, even with decent APR. The recent discussion about speed factors showed that if you're not in range within those brief "windows of opportunity," you miss your chance to make an attack roll--if Sarevok is always running after you, he might struggle to make an attack roll even if you failed to hide. And if you're striking him from right behind a pillar, he should have no chance of making his attack roll before you're already out of range and ready to use stealth.
SCS removes the traps from the Sarevok fight. If you played without SCS, it might be possible to use the repeating Lightning Bolt trap to kill the other critters, provided that you could "dodge" the lightning bolt with precise movement.
A solo monk can get the Strength tome in BG1. Monks can use potions of giant strength as well as the Violet Potion, and combine any of them with DUHM. A level 6 monk with DUHM and a Potion of Cloud Giant Strength could hit 25 Strength and get the STR tome easily for 19 base STR. If we're talking about a poverty run, of course, long-term STR will always be a flat 18 until the Nine Hells or the Machine of Lum the Mad.
If we're talking about a solo no-reload poverty monk on Core or higher in a saga run that includes Siege of Dragonspear, then that might not be realistic regardless of Sarevok, since fear effects could doom you in Avernus and you simply might not have the raw numbers to compete at the Coalition Camp invasion.
Tagging @Grond0 for his thoughts about all of this.
A monk killing Sarevok in a poverty run may well be a problem - but not as a result of Sarevok himself. I don't know of a way to get Sarevok to come out and fight without Semaj also teleporting out into a position where it would be very difficult to fight Sarevok without Semaj also getting involved - and once that happens a monk's chance of survival would be very low.
It may be possible to use the lightning trap about halfway up on the left hand side, but I've never done that without having protection. In general, lightning bolts generated very near you will not hit you, so if this trap operates in the same way, it should be possible in principle to activate the trap over and over again with a minimal chance of taking damage (it's sometimes difficult to avoid bounces, so I'm not sure if you could guarantee to take none). In the unmodded game all 4 enemies can be killed using that trap without ever seeing them - though it would take a fair while to do that with Sarevok.
If Sarevok were on his own (it is possible in vanilla to get him to come out alone by attacking him from extreme range - in poverty that can be done using LMD) then it's really not difficult at all for a monk to kill him using stealth tactics. Monk stealth is poor, so the chance of hiding at each attempt is low (light penalties apply in the temple). However, the extra speed a monk has and Sarevok's relatively poor weapon speed means he should never actually get a chance to make an attack as you circle round and try once more to hide. Once hidden, there is a good chance (though not a certainty) that you can attack and retreat back behind a pillar without Sarevok following.
I've used stealth tactics to kill Sarevok with multiple characters and it's certainly possible to hide, despite the speed disadvantage, even with something like a thief or ranger. However, unlike with a monk, I wouldn't like to guarantee that Sarevok would be unable to get any attacks in while such characters are circling round. My definition of poverty also forbids any use of weapons (including a starting staff), so such characters would need 2 damaging Bhaal powers (one to draw him out and one to kill him while unconscious).
Talking about Bhaal powers, vampiric touch is slow casting (which always annoys me, as I think it should be speed 1 or better when used as a Bhaal power). The chance of successfully casting that on Sarevok would be minimal (either requiring him to make a critical miss or you being able to cheese your sprite's position sufficiently accurately to not get interrupted by the damage).
Even if you get past Sarevok, I agree a poverty monk would not get through SoD. There are multiple encounters where you would need to be incredibly lucky with both saving throws and your own attacks, but even if you did somehow get to Belhifet you wouldn't be able to hurt him. A standard monk run though is easy enough - Belhifet's slow weapon speed means he has a very low chance of hitting you against hit & run tactics, but you could just beat him up face to face anyway by using lots of potions of power and restoration to keep your HPs up, while champion's strength scrolls allow you to hit him at will with dual-wielded weapons.
he should take more than half a second to make his first attack roll, which sounds like more than enough time for a monk to run away and hide.
(...)
Even if you fail to hide, you should be able to outrun him until your stealth timer resets and you can hide again.
(...)
And if you're striking him from right behind a pillar, he should have no chance of making his attack roll before you're already out of range and ready to use stealth.
However, the extra speed a monk has and Sarevok's relatively poor weapon speed means he should never actually get a chance to make an attack as you circle round and try once more to hide. Once hidden, there is a good chance (though not a certainty) that you can attack and retreat back behind a pillar without Sarevok following.
I agree that it is worth a shot, trying to make use of Sarevok's weapon speed factor, reaction speed, and careful use of the pillars to stealth back.
It would require much skill, probably some trial and error, and definitely some reloads, but that seems doable.
A monk killing Sarevok in a poverty run may well be a problem - but not as a result of Sarevok himself. I don't know of a way to get Sarevok to come out and fight without Semaj also teleporting out into a position where it would be very difficult to fight Sarevok without Semaj also getting involved - and once that happens a monk's chance of survival would be very low.
Agree, taking care of Semaj's threat before facing Sarevok seems mandatory, either by using the traps to ensure Semaj dies beforehand, or killing Semaj after he teleports, without aggroing Sarevok.
The main problem though, as already noted by both @Grond0 and @semiticgod is that a monk is very vulnerable to mage's spells, notably fears and stuff. That's more of a general difficulty against spellcasters than just Semaj, and I don't think a no-reload run would allow this (although, just reloading 10.000 times until it works doesn't appeal to me either, so I'd probably have to give some thought about reloading rules before tackling such a challenge).
If we're talking about a solo no-reload poverty monk on Core or higher in a saga run that includes Siege of Dragonspear, then that might not be realistic regardless of Sarevok, since fear effects could doom you in Avernus and you simply might not have the raw numbers to compete at the Coalition Camp invasion.
Even if you get past Sarevok, I agree a poverty monk would not get through SoD. There are multiple encounters where you would need to be incredibly lucky with both saving throws and your own attacks, but even if you did somehow get to Belhifet you wouldn't be able to hurt him. A standard monk run though is easy enough - Belhifet's slow weapon speed means he has a very low chance of hitting you against hit & run tactics, but you could just beat him up face to face anyway by using lots of potions of power and restoration to keep your HPs up, while champion's strength scrolls allow you to hit him at will with dual-wielded weapons.
Indeed, a monk without gear/protections from status effects would probably be unable to face the attack on the coalition camp (unless relying on too much luck), and even worse in Avernus/Belhifet (even without taking into account the required +3 weapon enchantment).
Obviously, SoD was not intended to be faced as a solo poverty monk.
The way I see it, solo poverty monk run relies only on luck/reloads to survive (although I want to try it first to make sure of it), so it might not be an interesting challenge.
Maybe tweak the challenge a bit and use "certain" items (either only items rewarded to the player, no looting allowed), or limiting items in another way (no idea right now to make it challenging, poverty-style and yet interesting).
In fact, I'm thinking it would be interesting to find a rule-set inspired by the poverty challenge to allow ALL classes to have at least a chance to clear all games with minimum gear.
That means availability to at least some form of weapons for everyone (not just summoned weapons/basic quarterstaff), 1 set of armor (same one from start to finish maybe?), authorize arcane casters to buy scrolls but only to scribe them in their spellbooks, and then potions/wands should be restricted yet maybe allowed in some form too ?
I've looked into items given to the player (instead of bought/looted), and there are quite a few in BG1 already (I may have missed some).
Candlekeep: potion of healing ; dagger+1 (here goes your magical weapon for the whole game aha)
Area outside Candlekeep: potion of healing (Xzar)
FAI: 6 antidotes ; potion of heroism+elixir (bring Samuel's body)
Beregost: scroll case ; shield+1; ring+1; potion of defense
Shipwreck: oil of fiery burning; potion of magic protection
Nashkell: Potion of Stone Giant+Brage's sword
Carnival: potion of heroism
Wilderness areas around Nashkell: scroll of protection from magic (Hafiz), Scroll of Protection from Undead (Drienne); potion of healing or antidote (Dryad); Boots of the North
BG City: wand of polymorphing; scroll of protection from poison (Rinnie); wand of lightning (Brevik); Necklace of Missiles (Nadine); Nymph Cloak (Nymph/Sorcerous Sundries); Shield of Falling Stars (Vari Roaringhorn)
With those and allowing a set of starting Armor+weapons , I think any class could clear the game.
It would require much skill, probably some trial and error, and definitely some reloads, but that seems doable.
imo what it really need is an intensive use of pause.
autopause on end of round for hit and run tactics, this tells you if your monk has the attack, one less thing to worry about.
space bar pause for everything else. you see the animation of sarevok attacking, pause, order charname to hit him and unpause, as the attack is done again pause again and order him to run. this allow you to have perfect timing even if you lack of super sharp reflexes. same to hide, you turn a pillar, pause, check if he is still on sight, if not unpause for a split second and check again.
and pausing give you a lot of time to evaluate the situation, bg games are not shooters, are tactical games.
about runs based on luck and reload my interest about them is exactly 0, i think that even if reload is allowed the tactic should be sound, you can reload because you have screwed it up, but not to be sure that a certain spell works or fails against all the odds.
on poverty runs of some classes i think that few key items should be allowed, only the ones that let you win some battles that can not be avoided, and only for those specific battles.
ie a fear protecting item for battles where other way you are 100% sure charname will be panicked, let's say for a not cavalier paladin for the firkraag battle, that has to be done to complete the stronghold, while the other bg2 dragons battles are optional, so there the item should not be allowed.
but a solo poverty run is something that anyway has custom rules and self restrictions, so each player can decide by himself the exceptions he allows and the reasons why he allows them, as long as he is clear about it when he "brags" on the forums about his success.
I agree 100% with all of what you said @gorgonzola
It is precisely my problem with the monk poverty run we discussed, relying ONLY on luck is a no-go. Relying on SOME luck for better results is ok to me. For example, if my saves are low enough to allow me 80% chances of resisting a specific effect, I feel that I can take my chances, and try taking on the fight, maybe even reloading once if I fail critically on the first try. On the other hand, if there is only a 5% chance and I just reload 20 times until I save, then I consider it a failed run.
You are right about your fear example, I forgot to take saving throws/immunities into account when considering that the gear available through rewards was enough. It might not suffice to clear BG1. That would need trial and error, there are only so many mandatory battles in BG1 anyway, and with the few potions/scrolls awarded by quests & dialogs, it might still be possible.
I wanna try it I'm still running a solo no-reload sorcerer from my random-class challenge, but I'm already starting to get bored with it (tried almost all single classes beside druid, not all kits obviously).
I think I might start trying solo-no-looting/no-buying challenges afterwards, once I have refined the ruleset accompanying the challenge.
I've already compiled all quest rewards from SoD (there are quite a few), and quite a few +3 weapons can be acquired this way to face Belhifet:
- the voidstone weapons (either a hammer, a longsword, a set of bullets or a set of arrows)
- a Two-Handed sword (from the rashemeni warrior)
- a club (root of the problem from the druids, counts as +3 against "monsters", works against Belhifet if I'm not mistaken)
- a morningstar (Blazing Glory, from rescuing Mizhena's father at the end of the Siege on Dragonspear Castle)
- a staff (Echo of the Fiend) or longsword (Tongue of Acid) from Thrix right before the final battle
Also note that there is an armor with fear immunity (Commander's Chain Mail), an Ioun Stone with poison immunity (Purification Stone), items with fire resistance (a shield & 2 rings), apparel that boosts AC, ST and/or thac0 (ring of the crusade, RoP+2, Medal of Valor, Lucky boots), although obviously you can't wear it all at the same time.
But that's probably enough to allow even regular fighter types to fight against Belhifet (I said fight, not win ^^).
However, the extra speed a monk has and Sarevok's relatively poor weapon speed means he should never actually get a chance to make an attack as you circle round and try once more to hide. Once hidden, there is a good chance (though not a certainty) that you can attack and retreat back behind a pillar without Sarevok following.
i just tested it and sarevok swings that sword at warp speed, the sword itself is set to 5 ( even though in the description it says 10, it is not ) plus sarevok gets the proficiency bonuses from have 5 points in the weapon, which is an additional 3, plus his haste effect, which brings him down to 0 by the looks of it
i summoned him up and used cheats to make him join my team and when he goes to attack something he hits it right away, no swinging animations before hitting, just straight up attack and hit at the same time
apparently his sword also gives a +5 to hit/ to damage bonus despite it doesnt say so in it's description
its funny because i guess the sword is supposed to act as a +5 weapon, but it's enhancement bonus is 0, but it is considered magical, so it can hit things that require magical weapons to injure, most interesting
although its weird, he doesnt have any of the newer EE proficiencies, just 5 in large sword, but yet it seems to give him the full bonus for his sword, interesting
Comments
also deva and planetar and the fallen version of them.
good or evil those people are fighting for their life and for a cause.
to tell that a good oriented caster can not cast a spell that damage or kill or that an evil one can not cast one that heal and protect it like to say that keldorn can use his sword, but without taking it out of the scabbard as he is good but the blade of a sword is damaging so evil.
by the way i, in rl, agree with this, following mahatma gandhi's teaching, i believe that if you plant an apple seed you will never gather oranges, that the action is deeply tied with the result, you can not use an evil action, harming people, to reach a good goal.
but this is a completely different matter, if we want to play the game we have to use violence, harm and kill people in that fictional reality.
what is the difference between confusing, stunning or webbing foe so your party fighter can kill them and kill them yourself with a big ball of fire? is a mafia boss less evil of the assassin he send to kill, even if he never kills or harm anyone himself?
so i think that beyond the spells i mentioned before, that are alignment restricted by game design, there are only few spells that casters of some alignments should not use. summon demons and summon undeads are imo among them and even if my good parties summon undeads, i rp it as they would act more or less like golems, bones animated by magic, not actual souls of dead people enslaved to control the bones that were their bodies, and i never gate in demons.
also summoning in general can be seen as an evil action if we assume that actual beings are somehow teleported to the battle field, enslaved, and used as a meat shield, being them animals or creatures with more intelligence like gnolls. slavery is evil.
also here i rp that like the simulacrum clones the creatures summoned are not real ones but temporary ones, without a real conscience, created by magic.
and this in spite that for call woodland beings and call animals the spell descriptions clearly state the opposite.
other spells that imo good oriented casters should probably not use are flash to stone and imprisonment.
to cage a sentient being into a stone statue or somewhere behind the ground seems to me very similar to torture, and torturing is surely evil, is well beyond killing an enemy you fight.
i use them, and i always rp good, even if sometimes use neural charnames, but only as temporary means of taking an enemy out of the battle field (and to farm xp
those are my 2 cents about the matter, as i am somehow a power gamer that cares much about rp issues.
and it is my very personal take on it, as i strongly believe that every player has to play in the way that gives to him more fun.
so even if i disagree with @Jimstrom about good characters not using spells that kill or harm and evil ones spells that are actually beneficial i see nothing wrong in his approach to the matter.
and i posted mine so he can maybe help him to define what spells a caster of a certain alignment should use. beyond using undeads and demons, things that he already mentioned, i think that all the spells that involve an enslavement of a sentient being and/or torture should maybe only be used by evil casters.
About summoning spells, I thought there was a difference between the animal/monster summoning spells and the elemental summoning spells : while the animals/monsters summons come from the material plane and die if they are killed (...) during the spell duration, I think that elementals are only "banished" upon death and are returned to their elemental plane (I don't know why I thought this, the description doesn't say so).
In general, I'd say that charm/illusion/abjuration spells fit the "good" alignment sphere, while necromancy spells obviously tend more towards evil.
I don't have an opinion about evocation & conjuration spells, as @gorgonzola said, in a sense, if we prevent good aligned mages to use damaging spells, then good aligned warriors shouldn't use weapons (or at least slashing weapons).
It's always difficult these kind of discussions as we touch upon morals, and morality is a very subjective stance.
For instance, applying our 21st century morals to a medieval/magical era, where wars, monsters and violence is omnipresent, doesn't make much sense. Plus, it hurts gameplay since the game IS about killing stuff to get power/gear/XP and advancing in the storyline.
It would be different if you could progress in the game by capturing/surrendering (sentient) enemies instead of killing them, or solving encounters peacefully by convincing/threatening the opponents. There are very few such possibilities accross the game.
I've done a pacifist run recently, it was very interesting and fun, but it really limits the number of quests you can finish (or even start) and its more about cheesing encounters & scripts than real roleplay.
That being said, and back to topic, roleplaying your spellbook seems like a great idea, and as long as you are not too "hardcore" with the dichotomy between right & wrong, good & evil, I think it can become a fun way to roleplay your spellcasters.
Instead of "this spell is good, this one is evil", I'd probably more RP it as "this spellcaster is specialized in aiding himself/others, this one is specialized in deceiving enemies and manipulating reality", etc.
To take some of your examples:
- Aerie would be focused on healing spells, mage abjuration spells, party & self buffs (protection/healing spheres)
- Jan would be focused on enchantment & illusion spells, obviously, plus maybe some alteration spells?
- Anomen would obviously use spells from the Protection and Combat spheres mostly
- I haven't played Nalia a lot, so I'm not positive about her personality, but she doesn't strike me as as "gentle" as Aerie or Imoen for example. Good, sure, naive, true, but gentle, not particularly. She probably wouldn't hesitate to cast fireballs at monsters threatening the commoners she thinks she's here to help (she feels hypocrite to me but whatever)
Dynaheir is a wychlaran witch invoker, so her not using magic missile and fireballs would be out of character imo even though she is lawful good.
When it comes to Aerie she probably learned to defend herself from teaching's from Quayle he himself an illusionis, so i probably sneak in some illusionary spells in Aeries book too. She is also a circus performer so probably some flashy yet unharmful spells would be more fitting to her reportoire.
Xan is mainly an enchanter and should focus on those spells, and probably some abjuration spells to protect himself, i can also see him chuck away flame and acid arrows since we are all doomed anyway.
Edwin always prefer to let other people do his work, so summoning is right up his alley.
Xzar is obviously a necromancer and should focus on spells concerning death and decay.
Evil clerics may also heal (Cure wounds is concidered a necromancy spell after all) but are more focused on offensive spells.
Imoen is trained with bow and arrow, and would probably have no problem flinging magic arrows and flame arrows around.
Same with Nalia who got a hatred for slavers (and maybe some authority).
Valygar is bound by his spells by blood, and even though he don't like it, might as well use em if it means he can end his bloodline.
Bards i don't see throw around to much offensive spells, and if they do it is probably something to incapcitate or slow down targets while they run away. Now illusionary spells seem more bardlike, i can imagine Garrick turning invisible and playing his music.
Branwen and Yeslick are both warrior priiests and should focus on the combat speheres, spells like strentght of one, draw upion holy might and similar spells. Yeslick is more defensive though and branwen is slightly more offensive.
Tiax have probably no qualms what so ever to summoning undead (hell he even have a summon ghast ability)
Those are my thoughts.
the game has been soloed in poverty runs, where only a not enchanted staff is allowed (obviously you have to be a caster to do it as some enemies are immune to normal weapons).
also if you play tactics mod the starting dungeon is very hard and there you lack of good weapons until you defeat ilich and his party, but to reach them you have to fight some groups of mages and fighters instead of the usual goblins, and ilich and his mates are very tought (there is a monk with quivering palm, a lev 19 cleric that calls a fallen deva and ilich himself is a berseker that has a special spell with aoe that make the people weak and fatigued.
still is possible to beat them, a lot of players have done it at the time that mod was the most used to rise the challenge. good tactics are more important then good weapons.
so whatever type of weapon you use there is no problem in beating the game, to chose weapon that you have never used can only make you a better player as it compels you to play better.
give it a try, chose weapon types that you normally don't use and don't go straight for the strongest weapon of that type, you will have fun...
Yeah, poverty runs can be fun!
I've tried it with Sorcerer (obviously), Totemic Druid (summons, yay), Monk (problematic), and Cleric/Thief (in LoB even, but got bored at some point in bg2).
I can't remember if Monk can clear the whole game without items though (fists are considered non magical in BG1, and only go up to +3 enchantment level, so I don't think the Ravager in ToB can be beaten)
EDIT: Although theoretically possible, I don’t see how a monk would be able to kill Sarevok without any gear/potions. Since Sarevok comes hasted, not even hit&run tactics would work I guess.
And since Sarevok’s saves are set to 1, you can’t even disable him with stunning blows/blindness (DMM), even with heavy reloading.
- AC 0 (taking into account 18 starting DEX, +1 from Tome, +2 from DuHM)
- thac0: 10 (13 base, -3 from 20 STR under DuHM, since there is no possibility to grab the STR tome), effective thac0 is 6 if attacking from stealth, and that's only for a max of 2 turns relying on DuHM.
- 2 APR, max 80 HP
- damage: 1d10+8 (from 20 STR)
- max stealth points (at lvl8 & with 21 DEX under DuHM+dex tome) = 125 points (so only around 62,5 average stealth)
Sarevok, on the other hand, is a lvl15 fighter with OP saving throws & gear on top of it:
- 135 HP
- AC: -5
- 90% resistance to Fire / Cold (relevant for SSM or DMM)
- APR 4 if I'm not mistaken, hasted movement too
- effective thac0: -9 IIRC
- Saving throws set to 1 (so they can't fail unless you can apply a penalty, which the monk cannot do)
Which means:
- Sarevok hits 95% of the time (only misses on a crit)
- stealthed monk only hits 50% of the time (11 or better)
- Sarevok's saving throws make Stunning Blow or Blindness useless
- Even with SSM and accounting special fire abilities (Fireshield etc.), the 90% fire resistance makes it meaningless
- a DMM however brings -3 AC to the table (irrelevant given Sarevok's huge thac0), but also another cast of Vampiric Touch (4d6 magical damage).
I think going for evil bhaalspawn final abilities (2 Vampiric Touch instead of DuHM) could be a better idea, with loads of reloading, a DMM can - in theory, with loads of reloads - take out half of Sarevok's HP with Vampiric Touches only (72 HP).
Still, that leaves at least 60 HP to be taken out with attacks from the shadows, which is at least 5 or 6 hits in easy difficulty with max damage rolls, without support from DuHM.
the situation reminds me my fmt solo, starting from bg2 with tactics mod against the durgar parties in the irenicus dungeon and then against the ilich's party.
also there they had much better thac0 and hp, and they did hit for double damage as it was on insane.
even if it was not a poverty run he had at the beginning only the +1 dagger, and was not proficient in it, and not enchanted weapons, but was able to use at best every corner with low light to hide reliably and stab again as the one that was following him passed the corner without finding anyone as the fmt did hide in the split second he was out of sight.
but the durgars had his same speed, was not hasted. if the haste expire the monk is actually at advantage as is faster then sarevok, if not it is impossible to use that tactic, that with perfect timing is very effective against people that there is no way you can beat in a plain mlee fight.
my fmt took almost no hits and needed on average 3 stabs to kill each durgar (new groups spawn each time you rest) and a lot more to take down the boss.
a staff is needed for that as the long reach allows to have the distance from the one that chase you that allows to hide again behind the corner/pillar/whatever, but a mundane staff is usually allowed in a poverty run.
Sarevok's haste can be dispelled, but won't expire no (at least not that i'm aware of).
Hit&run and stealth seems very very difficult, if not impossible, since Sarevok will be faster, and the monk's stealth will be average only.
Plus, the temple is not easy to maneuver around, especially with all the traps near the columns (although they can be triggered beforehand, so that they won't affect you during the fight itself), and you can't leave the temple once the fight has started, so no tactical retreat either.
Also: monks can't use staves
is also impossible to run until he try to hit, hit him before his next attack and run again as he has too much apr.
I can see it working with great timing. If you paused right after breaking invisibility, you would only be within his melee range for a few frames before you could scurry away and dart behind a pillar to hide. Sarevok's APR in SCS is 3 (2 listed in Near Infinity, 3 from Haste, and I think no proficiency bonuses because his class is "SAREVOK" instead of "fighter"), and with a speed factor of 4 (5 from his weapon, -1 from his 4 pips in two-handed swords), he should take more than half a second to make his first attack roll, which sounds like more than enough time for a monk to run away and hide.
In Near Infinity, Sarevok has two pips in Single-Weapon Style instead of Two-Handed Weapon Style, but his "two-handed sword" is actually coded as a single-handed weapon, at least in SCS (probably because his sprite wields it with one hand). His "one-handed two-handed sword with one-handed pips" in SCS means that he gets a +2 bonus to AC, rather than a -2 bonus to speed factor.
Sarevok's weapon range is 2, just like a monk's fists or a staff, and their movement rates should be fairly comparable. Sarevok is hasted, but his sprite has a standard, sluggish BG1 speed unless that's been improved, while the monk, albeit unhasted, has a 3-point movement rate bonus in BG1. Even if you fail to hide, you should be able to outrun him until your stealth timer resets and you can hide again. It's possible his timing might be just right and he could land some hits on you even while running away, but usually when one melee critter is chasing someone down, the former gets VERY few windows of opportunity to make an attack roll, even with decent APR. The recent discussion about speed factors showed that if you're not in range within those brief "windows of opportunity," you miss your chance to make an attack roll--if Sarevok is always running after you, he might struggle to make an attack roll even if you failed to hide. And if you're striking him from right behind a pillar, he should have no chance of making his attack roll before you're already out of range and ready to use stealth.
SCS removes the traps from the Sarevok fight. If you played without SCS, it might be possible to use the repeating Lightning Bolt trap to kill the other critters, provided that you could "dodge" the lightning bolt with precise movement.
A solo monk can get the Strength tome in BG1. Monks can use potions of giant strength as well as the Violet Potion, and combine any of them with DUHM. A level 6 monk with DUHM and a Potion of Cloud Giant Strength could hit 25 Strength and get the STR tome easily for 19 base STR. If we're talking about a poverty run, of course, long-term STR will always be a flat 18 until the Nine Hells or the Machine of Lum the Mad.
If we're talking about a solo no-reload poverty monk on Core or higher in a saga run that includes Siege of Dragonspear, then that might not be realistic regardless of Sarevok, since fear effects could doom you in Avernus and you simply might not have the raw numbers to compete at the Coalition Camp invasion.
Tagging @Grond0 for his thoughts about all of this.
It may be possible to use the lightning trap about halfway up on the left hand side, but I've never done that without having protection. In general, lightning bolts generated very near you will not hit you, so if this trap operates in the same way, it should be possible in principle to activate the trap over and over again with a minimal chance of taking damage (it's sometimes difficult to avoid bounces, so I'm not sure if you could guarantee to take none). In the unmodded game all 4 enemies can be killed using that trap without ever seeing them - though it would take a fair while to do that with Sarevok.
If Sarevok were on his own (it is possible in vanilla to get him to come out alone by attacking him from extreme range - in poverty that can be done using LMD) then it's really not difficult at all for a monk to kill him using stealth tactics. Monk stealth is poor, so the chance of hiding at each attempt is low (light penalties apply in the temple). However, the extra speed a monk has and Sarevok's relatively poor weapon speed means he should never actually get a chance to make an attack as you circle round and try once more to hide. Once hidden, there is a good chance (though not a certainty) that you can attack and retreat back behind a pillar without Sarevok following.
I've used stealth tactics to kill Sarevok with multiple characters and it's certainly possible to hide, despite the speed disadvantage, even with something like a thief or ranger. However, unlike with a monk, I wouldn't like to guarantee that Sarevok would be unable to get any attacks in while such characters are circling round. My definition of poverty also forbids any use of weapons (including a starting staff), so such characters would need 2 damaging Bhaal powers (one to draw him out and one to kill him while unconscious).
Talking about Bhaal powers, vampiric touch is slow casting (which always annoys me, as I think it should be speed 1 or better when used as a Bhaal power). The chance of successfully casting that on Sarevok would be minimal (either requiring him to make a critical miss or you being able to cheese your sprite's position sufficiently accurately to not get interrupted by the damage).
Even if you get past Sarevok, I agree a poverty monk would not get through SoD. There are multiple encounters where you would need to be incredibly lucky with both saving throws and your own attacks, but even if you did somehow get to Belhifet you wouldn't be able to hurt him. A standard monk run though is easy enough - Belhifet's slow weapon speed means he has a very low chance of hitting you against hit & run tactics, but you could just beat him up face to face anyway by using lots of potions of power and restoration to keep your HPs up, while champion's strength scrolls allow you to hit him at will with dual-wielded weapons.
In my unmodded iPad version, his walking speed is hasted, so he would outrun a non-geared monk.
I agree that it is worth a shot, trying to make use of Sarevok's weapon speed factor, reaction speed, and careful use of the pillars to stealth back.
It would require much skill, probably some trial and error, and definitely some reloads, but that seems doable.
Agree, taking care of Semaj's threat before facing Sarevok seems mandatory, either by using the traps to ensure Semaj dies beforehand, or killing Semaj after he teleports, without aggroing Sarevok.
The main problem though, as already noted by both @Grond0 and @semiticgod is that a monk is very vulnerable to mage's spells, notably fears and stuff. That's more of a general difficulty against spellcasters than just Semaj, and I don't think a no-reload run would allow this (although, just reloading 10.000 times until it works doesn't appeal to me either, so I'd probably have to give some thought about reloading rules before tackling such a challenge).
Indeed, a monk without gear/protections from status effects would probably be unable to face the attack on the coalition camp (unless relying on too much luck), and even worse in Avernus/Belhifet (even without taking into account the required +3 weapon enchantment).
Obviously, SoD was not intended to be faced as a solo poverty monk.
The way I see it, solo poverty monk run relies only on luck/reloads to survive (although I want to try it first to make sure of it), so it might not be an interesting challenge.
Maybe tweak the challenge a bit and use "certain" items (either only items rewarded to the player, no looting allowed), or limiting items in another way (no idea right now to make it challenging, poverty-style and yet interesting).
In fact, I'm thinking it would be interesting to find a rule-set inspired by the poverty challenge to allow ALL classes to have at least a chance to clear all games with minimum gear.
That means availability to at least some form of weapons for everyone (not just summoned weapons/basic quarterstaff), 1 set of armor (same one from start to finish maybe?), authorize arcane casters to buy scrolls but only to scribe them in their spellbooks, and then potions/wands should be restricted yet maybe allowed in some form too ?
Candlekeep: potion of healing ; dagger+1 (here goes your magical weapon for the whole game aha)
Area outside Candlekeep: potion of healing (Xzar)
FAI: 6 antidotes ; potion of heroism+elixir (bring Samuel's body)
Beregost: scroll case ; shield+1; ring+1; potion of defense
Shipwreck: oil of fiery burning; potion of magic protection
Nashkell: Potion of Stone Giant+Brage's sword
Carnival: potion of heroism
Wilderness areas around Nashkell: scroll of protection from magic (Hafiz), Scroll of Protection from Undead (Drienne); potion of healing or antidote (Dryad); Boots of the North
BG City: wand of polymorphing; scroll of protection from poison (Rinnie); wand of lightning (Brevik); Necklace of Missiles (Nadine); Nymph Cloak (Nymph/Sorcerous Sundries); Shield of Falling Stars (Vari Roaringhorn)
With those and allowing a set of starting Armor+weapons , I think any class could clear the game.
autopause on end of round for hit and run tactics, this tells you if your monk has the attack, one less thing to worry about.
space bar pause for everything else. you see the animation of sarevok attacking, pause, order charname to hit him and unpause, as the attack is done again pause again and order him to run. this allow you to have perfect timing even if you lack of super sharp reflexes. same to hide, you turn a pillar, pause, check if he is still on sight, if not unpause for a split second and check again.
and pausing give you a lot of time to evaluate the situation, bg games are not shooters, are tactical games.
about runs based on luck and reload my interest about them is exactly 0, i think that even if reload is allowed the tactic should be sound, you can reload because you have screwed it up, but not to be sure that a certain spell works or fails against all the odds.
on poverty runs of some classes i think that few key items should be allowed, only the ones that let you win some battles that can not be avoided, and only for those specific battles.
ie a fear protecting item for battles where other way you are 100% sure charname will be panicked, let's say for a not cavalier paladin for the firkraag battle, that has to be done to complete the stronghold, while the other bg2 dragons battles are optional, so there the item should not be allowed.
but a solo poverty run is something that anyway has custom rules and self restrictions, so each player can decide by himself the exceptions he allows and the reasons why he allows them, as long as he is clear about it when he "brags" on the forums about his success.
It is precisely my problem with the monk poverty run we discussed, relying ONLY on luck is a no-go. Relying on SOME luck for better results is ok to me. For example, if my saves are low enough to allow me 80% chances of resisting a specific effect, I feel that I can take my chances, and try taking on the fight, maybe even reloading once if I fail critically on the first try. On the other hand, if there is only a 5% chance and I just reload 20 times until I save, then I consider it a failed run.
You are right about your fear example, I forgot to take saving throws/immunities into account when considering that the gear available through rewards was enough. It might not suffice to clear BG1. That would need trial and error, there are only so many mandatory battles in BG1 anyway, and with the few potions/scrolls awarded by quests & dialogs, it might still be possible.
I wanna try it
I think I might start trying solo-no-looting/no-buying challenges afterwards, once I have refined the ruleset accompanying the challenge.
I've already compiled all quest rewards from SoD (there are quite a few), and quite a few +3 weapons can be acquired this way to face Belhifet:
- the voidstone weapons (either a hammer, a longsword, a set of bullets or a set of arrows)
- a Two-Handed sword (from the rashemeni warrior)
- a club (root of the problem from the druids, counts as +3 against "monsters", works against Belhifet if I'm not mistaken)
- a morningstar (Blazing Glory, from rescuing Mizhena's father at the end of the Siege on Dragonspear Castle)
- a staff (Echo of the Fiend) or longsword (Tongue of Acid) from Thrix right before the final battle
Also note that there is an armor with fear immunity (Commander's Chain Mail), an Ioun Stone with poison immunity (Purification Stone), items with fire resistance (a shield & 2 rings), apparel that boosts AC, ST and/or thac0 (ring of the crusade, RoP+2, Medal of Valor, Lucky boots), although obviously you can't wear it all at the same time.
But that's probably enough to allow even regular fighter types to fight against Belhifet (I said fight, not win ^^).
Thieves on the other hand......
i just tested it and sarevok swings that sword at warp speed, the sword itself is set to 5 ( even though in the description it says 10, it is not ) plus sarevok gets the proficiency bonuses from have 5 points in the weapon, which is an additional 3, plus his haste effect, which brings him down to 0 by the looks of it
i summoned him up and used cheats to make him join my team and when he goes to attack something he hits it right away, no swinging animations before hitting, just straight up attack and hit at the same time
apparently his sword also gives a +5 to hit/ to damage bonus despite it doesnt say so in it's description
its funny because i guess the sword is supposed to act as a +5 weapon, but it's enhancement bonus is 0, but it is considered magical, so it can hit things that require magical weapons to injure, most interesting
although its weird, he doesnt have any of the newer EE proficiencies, just 5 in large sword, but yet it seems to give him the full bonus for his sword, interesting