KidCarnival, I don't think anyone's saying that Shar-Teel's misandry is okay (and if they are, they're wrong).
The problem I think people have with Eldoth is that in a few short lines he manages to check off just about every box on the list for being the sort of emotionally abusive deceiver of women that serves as the villain in countless Victorian novels. (Women should know their place? Check. A woman's lot in life is to bake cookies and bare children? Double check. Dismissive and rude to significant other, but charming to another women? Check. Check. Check.) Characters like that have a long history in storytelling, and so there's a very visceral negative reaction to them.
Sure, he has pleasant exchanges with Branwen, but he was probably also nice enough to Skie when he was trying to seduce her, so his pleasantness reads pretty false. Taken in context with everything else we know about him, I half feel like if I wanted to get to know him better over dinner and bottle of wine I'd have to keep an eye on my purse and my glass just in case.
Obviously he has qualities that resonate positively and make him an interesting and likeable character to you, but for a lot of people those positive or entertaining qualities are completely overwhelmed by the creeper vibes he gives off by being a pitch-perfect recreation of a Lifetime original movie villain.
But... she is way more hateful toward men than Eldoth toward (one) women and there is a double standard here that her behavior and attitude is "awesome, entertaining, interesting" and Eldoth is a "slimy creep". What gives her the pass and not him?
Standard modern age "political correctness" probably; it's okay to be sexist if woman, okay to be racist if minority and automatic homophobia brand if not in complete agreement in any discussion where non-heterosexuality is the topic.
I've never really had Eldoth along for more than a few seconds to check out his stats and whatnot (only 2 proper playthroughs in Baldur's Gate for me... shameful I know) but from the descriptions of him in this thread, I too think he seems a creep. Seeing as the companions doesn't really have personality at all in the first game I probably will never try having him along long enough to find out. But I also think Shar-Teel is a dumb feminist bitch so I'd say they're both equally bad. Not badly written or badly designed mind you, just terrible people I'd want as little to do with as possible.
So it is "better" to be openly sexist than at least not telling people to their face that you think they are pathetic based on their sex alone...? Is brutal honesty (pun, haha) really preferable to "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all"? Branwen thanks him for the compliment and that's it - and his compliment isn't creepy to me. He says he would like to get to know her over a nice dinner and wine. Nothing wrong with that, if a bit delusional that he'll find a place to have a nice dinner when travelling with charname.
And if Branwen (and other NPCs) don't "fall" for that... All the better, more for me.
Well, if I were Branwen, I'd say the same thing. Because you're right--he's not saying anything wrong, and in my experience, trying to call people out on their potential kiss-ass-wormy-tongue compliments usually doesn't go too well (assuming, of course, that that's what he's trying to do. With such a simple line, it's pretty open to interpretation). Plus, Branwen has always struck me as a simple-minded woman who takes everything at face-worth. If she's not openly insulted, I doubt she'd say or do much of anything to pick a fight.
Marry: Viconia - she's always been the love interest most appealing to me, and with the chance of converting her from her evil ways, it does seem to make for a happy long-term relationship.
Shag: Probably Viconia as well.. if the person I would want to marry wasn't also the one I most of all wanted to sleep with, that would likely result in a rather unhappy marriage. If I would have to choose someone else (as in, someone you'd just sleep with but not consider good enough to spend the rest of your days with), any of the female love interests would do.. but probably Aerie or Neera, never been that fond of Jaheira.
Kill: None of the standard romance interests seem to qualify, so probably Shar-Teel (she's a potential romance in the BG1 NPC Project) - she's blunt and misandristic, and by challenging a fighter way above her skill level (mostly Minsc or Dorn in my parties) she basically almost talks herself into getting killed right off the bat. I usually RP it as my charname rolling his eyes, telling Minsc or Dorn to try not to kill her, and then sending her on her way a few seconds later when she's readily beaten.
Safana would be another option, if she were a romance interest. She seems to have a repeated behaviour of getting what she wants from men and then leaving them in dire straits.. but her plot isn't fleshed out enough to really amount to anything.
"Yoshimo is willing." "Where shall I display my skill and expertise?" "I am ready, I think." "You're right behind me, right?" "Nothing dangerous, I would hope." "I must have rest soon, my friend. I have no wish to be weary when my skills call for careful concentration..."
"I can dance on the head of a pin, as well." Never, in my wildest imagination, before reading this discussion, could I see that line as a possible double entendre.
Silverstar Hating men =/= being a feminist. There is no way Shar-Teel is a feminist. She's a misandrist.
No? I've been given the impression that feminism requires the following: hate men, blame everything wrong in the world on men, consider women intellectually superior, be of the opinion that if women were in charge the world would be a utopia and consider all non-feminist women to be detrimental to all women everywhere. It seems like a really bad way of thinking to me.
@Silverstar Hating men =/= being a feminist. There is no way Shar-Teel is a feminist. She's a misandrist.
Exactly. She's not a broken bird leashing out on the person who possibly mistreated her (there's no mention of such a thing to begin with), she's hateful and violent toward men as a whole. I'm not saying Eldoth is a nice guy, but I find it at least a bit better to say "women belong in the kitchen" than "women should die a bloody death" and follow through with that. (He doesn't even follow through with his opinion regarding Skie - he does take her on an adventure, not to a kitchen.)
Assuming I travel with a mostly male party and Branwen, who doesn't have a problem with Eldoth, I'm unlikely to take any offense from his behavior. I'll probably not even see much of it, except for when we are in a tavern where he'd get a chance to interact with women. Maybe not even there, because he's generally polite and well spoken and he wouldn't see anything wrong with a female chef or a waitress. His behavior wouldn't look different than Coran's or Garrick's - both would probably be charming and flirty and nothing else, too.
Shar-Teel remarking that men are pathetic and stink while we are in the Flaming Fist headquarters and trying to get a job and information from the exclusively male leaders... different story. (Though, my headcanon for her makes sense of such behavior; it's not a roleplay issue for me.)
Silverstar Hating men =/= being a feminist. There is no way Shar-Teel is a feminist. She's a misandrist.
No? I've been given the impression that feminism requires the following: hate men, blame everything wrong in the world on men, consider women intellectually superior, be of the opinion that if women were in charge the world would be a utopia and consider all non-feminist women to be detrimental to all women everywhere. It seems like a really bad way of thinking to me.
There is a difference between "feminist" and "fem nazi".
No? I've been given the impression that feminism requires the following: hate men, blame everything wrong in the world on men, consider women intellectually superior, be of the opinion that if women were in charge the world would be a utopia and consider all non-feminist women to be detrimental to all women everywhere. It seems like a really bad way of thinking to me.
haha, so that's what our goal is! XD
Any woman who thinks that women are superior to men is just as sexist and stupid as any man who thinks that men are superior to women. There are a minority of feminist extremists who feel this way. They are... rather loud.
That's right, one thing is go for equality between both genders, and other thing is to be beneficial towards a gender, and I don't even know why others argue about "men or women", I mean, there are the different sides from the same coin.
I mean, both are different, but similar, well, I'll reveal it all: I'm a feminist, but anyway I am a little bit neutral, well, with a little curve towards women (and towards women with curves). I DO think women are much better, but not because of that I despise men. It is not a physical comparison, physical attributes change so much in different people that they aren't worth looking at, but psychically females reach a maturity some time earlier than males, I don't think many people consider this as good as I consider it, and how I like other things of women that make me ting this way. I always found "too classic" and boring playing with male PCs, well, because I am male and I find funnier and more interesting to play female PCs, I always go for something different, right now I am playing with a Quasit PC, I could not find a way to assign custom sounds so it is failing, but I was very tempted to start a run with a female PC, but after creating her I've summoned a Quasit with Find Familiar, and said, "it will be good to play as a monster race, let's try this little demon". Preferring women over men is like preferring green over yellow, it does not change anything more than your personal opinions and actions. I'm not on "the side of all the women" it is just with only several people, and mostly just what I think, most of my options are based this way, I just like women more, it is not something strange, it's like your personal opinion about cats > dogs but different, I have my reasons to be feminist (and they are more than enough to be feminist). I know many people will comes with jokes after hearing that I'm feminist, well, those folks could BURN IN HELL, TWICE!
I doubt there'll be any jokes. It's considered pretty normal to be a feminist, it's the people who insist on sticking with gender roles who are belittled and seen as backwardly.
Safana is a better match for Eldoth than Shar-Teel; the kind of person who uses their wiles to manipulate others into doing what they want. But ultimately those people are just toys or pets to them.
I suppose in an odd way, Shar-Teel's violent hatred is more likeable than Eldoth. But also Korgan and Monataron, who are just violent thugs, are more likeable as well. I guess because they are just so open and up front about that they will beat you senseless and leave you dead if you disappoint them. Whereas the way Eldoth abuses people is more subtle, insidious, and seen as cowardly. I don't think he much chance with Branwen though; she's just polite. She's too wise to let him take any more advantage of her. I mean, there are feral children who have never had any contact with human beings, but who would still instantly recognize Eldoth for what he is and go running at the sight of him.
As for feminism, consider... the science and technology exist now so that women could survive without men. Not the other way around. So, good idea to treat them well, I say (I also make a point of screwing the lids on things as tightly as possible, so that she still thinks I'm useful for something when she tries to open them).
I'd use Shar-Teel more often if it wasn't for the man-hating comments. I like her 'If it bleeds, I can kill it' and general desire to fight for the sake of fighting.
hm... maybe in future playthroughs I can replace her man-hating lines with blank files. *-)
Same. It's frankly a bit of a turn off that she belittles all men. Even if your headcanon includes a rape'n'revenge story - a gay charname who romances Dorn wouldn't pose a threat of such mistreatment, he clearly has no interest in her, while also sharing her values of bloodshed and strength. Maybe that's a reason why I find Eldoth way more likable - with him, charname can relate to being annoyed of Skie, and if he really steps out of line regarding Branwen (or whoever gets the compliment lines), it's a matter of "dude, calm down, that lady knows fine buttocks if she sees them - it's why we always walk behind you - stop being a jerk or I let you two fight it out. Remember, she's the one with full plate and a helm, not you". There is no level of personal insult against charname or me.
As for feminism, consider... the science and technology exist now so that women could survive without men. Not the other way around. So, good idea to treat them well, I say (I also make a point of screwing the lids on things as tightly as possible, so that she still thinks I'm useful for something when she tries to open them).
I think it is a good idea to treat women good all the time just because you have the possibility to do so and because we have no reasons to do evil actions to them. And I think that the won't be able to continue humanity without any men, have you ever saw a coin with only one side? It is technically impossible.
come to think of it I should definitely have had her in my party for my run through I can imagine that having been a humorous pairing
shar teel always reminded me a bit of that awful red sonya filmd, I like her though mostly for the fact she has one of the coolest recruitments in the trilogy
Holy crap, this topic went to shit the moment somebody brought gender politics into it.
Why even do that? Shar-Teel is obviously a hateful, evil person and Eldoth is a self-obsessed sleazebag. Anyone who thinks they're representative of their gender, as opposed to being the extreme outliers that any sensible person should just ignore, is delusional.
I have to say though, Shar-Teel is worse, if only because she can't even affect a facade of politeness.
I think it's silly to say "I treat women well". It should be a given for us players and non-psychotic charnames to treat people well, regardless of sex or gender (which, if I may add, isn't the same thing).
I think it's silly to say "I treat women well". It should be a given for us players and non-psychotic charnames to treat people well, regardless of sex or gender (which, if I may add, isn't the same thing).
@kidcarnival what was that in response to? I pretty much agree with everything you said in this comment...
Sorry, but isn't this whole statement a bit contradictory? You first agree that trying to argue that men are better than women or vice versa is stupid, and then immediately afterwards state that you think women are much better.
You don't maybe think that you've worded yourself somewhat incorrectly?
You know what else is contradictory? Saying that this topic went to hell when discussing gender politics... then continuing to discuss gender politics!!!!!!!! (I'm only teasing)
Let's forget about frivolous stuff like gender roles and society and go back to talking about the things in life that are truly important... like which fictional cartoon character you would most like to shag!
Sorry, but isn't this whole statement a bit contradictory? You first agree that trying to argue that men are better than women or vice versa is stupid, and then immediately afterwards state that you think women are much better.
You don't maybe think that you've worded yourself somewhat incorrectly?
You know what else is contradictory? Saying that this topic went to hell when discussing gender politics... then continuing to discuss gender politics!!!!!!!! (I'm only teasing)
Let's forget about frivolous stuff like gender roles and society and go back to talking about the things in life that are truly important... like which fictional cartoon character you would most like to shag!
This stupid debate should perish But in its death it shall spawn a score of off-topic posts Chaos will be sown from their passing So sayeth the wise moderators
@booinyoureyes - That was in response to the entire gender politics thing.
We can all agree that sexism isn't endearing, regardless who it comes from, plus I don't think there really are typical gender roles in BG anyway - men and women can have the same professions/classes/stats/skills, so it's pointless to compare to real life.
Carry on with the game, so sayeth the wise beholder.
Comments
The problem I think people have with Eldoth is that in a few short lines he manages to check off just about every box on the list for being the sort of emotionally abusive deceiver of women that serves as the villain in countless Victorian novels. (Women should know their place? Check. A woman's lot in life is to bake cookies and bare children? Double check. Dismissive and rude to significant other, but charming to another women? Check. Check. Check.) Characters like that have a long history in storytelling, and so there's a very visceral negative reaction to them.
Sure, he has pleasant exchanges with Branwen, but he was probably also nice enough to Skie when he was trying to seduce her, so his pleasantness reads pretty false. Taken in context with everything else we know about him, I half feel like if I wanted to get to know him better over dinner and bottle of wine I'd have to keep an eye on my purse and my glass just in case.
Obviously he has qualities that resonate positively and make him an interesting and likeable character to you, but for a lot of people those positive or entertaining qualities are completely overwhelmed by the creeper vibes he gives off by being a pitch-perfect recreation of a Lifetime original movie villain.
-Blue
I've never really had Eldoth along for more than a few seconds to check out his stats and whatnot (only 2 proper playthroughs in Baldur's Gate for me... shameful I know) but from the descriptions of him in this thread, I too think he seems a creep. Seeing as the companions doesn't really have personality at all in the first game I probably will never try having him along long enough to find out. But I also think Shar-Teel is a dumb feminist bitch so I'd say they're both equally bad. Not badly written or badly designed mind you, just terrible people I'd want as little to do with as possible.
"I can also dance on the head of a pin as well!"
I'm sure you can, Yoshi. I'm sure you can...
Marry: Viconia - she's always been the love interest most appealing to me, and with the chance of converting her from her evil ways, it does seem to make for a happy long-term relationship.
Shag: Probably Viconia as well.. if the person I would want to marry wasn't also the one I most of all wanted to sleep with, that would likely result in a rather unhappy marriage. If I would have to choose someone else (as in, someone you'd just sleep with but not consider good enough to spend the rest of your days with), any of the female love interests would do.. but probably Aerie or Neera, never been that fond of Jaheira.
Kill: None of the standard romance interests seem to qualify, so probably Shar-Teel (she's a potential romance in the BG1 NPC Project) - she's blunt and misandristic, and by challenging a fighter way above her skill level (mostly Minsc or Dorn in my parties) she basically almost talks herself into getting killed right off the bat. I usually RP it as my charname rolling his eyes, telling Minsc or Dorn to try not to kill her, and then sending her on her way a few seconds later when she's readily beaten.
Safana would be another option, if she were a romance interest. She seems to have a repeated behaviour of getting what she wants from men and then leaving them in dire straits.. but her plot isn't fleshed out enough to really amount to anything.
"Where shall I display my skill and expertise?"
"I am ready, I think."
"You're right behind me, right?"
"Nothing dangerous, I would hope."
"I must have rest soon, my friend. I have no wish to be weary when my skills call for careful concentration..."
"Pay attention! We will get no second chance!"
"Fleet of foot and all that."
::ducks thrown rotten tomatoes::
Okay, leaving the discussion now.
Assuming I travel with a mostly male party and Branwen, who doesn't have a problem with Eldoth, I'm unlikely to take any offense from his behavior. I'll probably not even see much of it, except for when we are in a tavern where he'd get a chance to interact with women. Maybe not even there, because he's generally polite and well spoken and he wouldn't see anything wrong with a female chef or a waitress. His behavior wouldn't look different than Coran's or Garrick's - both would probably be charming and flirty and nothing else, too.
Shar-Teel remarking that men are pathetic and stink while we are in the Flaming Fist headquarters and trying to get a job and information from the exclusively male leaders... different story. (Though, my headcanon for her makes sense of such behavior; it's not a roleplay issue for me.)
But enough derailing this topic.
I mean, both are different, but similar, well, I'll reveal it all: I'm a feminist, but anyway I am a little bit neutral, well, with a little curve towards women (and towards women with curves). I DO think women are much better, but not because of that I despise men. It is not a physical comparison, physical attributes change so much in different people that they aren't worth looking at, but psychically females reach a maturity some time earlier than males, I don't think many people consider this as good as I consider it, and how I like other things of women that make me ting this way. I always found "too classic" and boring playing with male PCs, well, because I am male and I find funnier and more interesting to play female PCs, I always go for something different, right now I am playing with a Quasit PC, I could not find a way to assign custom sounds so it is failing, but I was very tempted to start a run with a female PC, but after creating her I've summoned a Quasit with Find Familiar, and said, "it will be good to play as a monster race, let's try this little demon". Preferring women over men is like preferring green over yellow, it does not change anything more than your personal opinions and actions. I'm not on "the side of all the women" it is just with only several people, and mostly just what I think, most of my options are based this way, I just like women more, it is not something strange, it's like your personal opinion about cats > dogs but different, I have my reasons to be feminist (and they are more than enough to be feminist).
I know many people will comes with jokes after hearing that I'm feminist, well, those folks could BURN IN HELL, TWICE!
I suppose in an odd way, Shar-Teel's violent hatred is more likeable than Eldoth. But also Korgan and Monataron, who are just violent thugs, are more likeable as well. I guess because they are just so open and up front about that they will beat you senseless and leave you dead if you disappoint them. Whereas the way Eldoth abuses people is more subtle, insidious, and seen as cowardly. I don't think he much chance with Branwen though; she's just polite. She's too wise to let him take any more advantage of her. I mean, there are feral children who have never had any contact with human beings, but who would still instantly recognize Eldoth for what he is and go running at the sight of him.
As for feminism, consider... the science and technology exist now so that women could survive without men. Not the other way around. So, good idea to treat them well, I say (I also make a point of screwing the lids on things as tightly as possible, so that she still thinks I'm useful for something when she tries to open them).
come to think of it I should definitely have had her in my party for my run through I can imagine that having been a humorous pairing
shar teel always reminded me a bit of that awful red sonya filmd, I like her though mostly for the fact she has one of the coolest recruitments in the trilogy
Why even do that? Shar-Teel is obviously a hateful, evil person and Eldoth is a self-obsessed sleazebag. Anyone who thinks they're representative of their gender, as opposed to being the extreme outliers that any sensible person should just ignore, is delusional.
I have to say though, Shar-Teel is worse, if only because she can't even affect a facade of politeness.
I think it's silly to say "I treat women well". It should be a given for us players and non-psychotic charnames to treat people well, regardless of sex or gender (which, if I may add, isn't the same thing).
@kidcarnival what was that in response to? I pretty much agree with everything you said in this comment... You know what else is contradictory? Saying that this topic went to hell when discussing gender politics... then continuing to discuss gender politics!!!!!!!! (I'm only teasing)
Let's forget about frivolous stuff like gender roles and society and go back to talking about the things in life that are truly important... like which fictional cartoon character you would most like to shag!
But in its death it shall spawn a score of off-topic posts
Chaos will be sown from their passing
So sayeth the wise moderators
We can all agree that sexism isn't endearing, regardless who it comes from, plus I don't think there really are typical gender roles in BG anyway - men and women can have the same professions/classes/stats/skills, so it's pointless to compare to real life.
Carry on with the game, so sayeth the wise beholder.