If you want a look at how unhinged Trumpland is tonight, check out hatchet man Roger Stone's Twitter tirade tonight against a couple of women. I can't post them because they would break site rules.
Here's what everyone needs to keep in mind when it comes to this administration:
Trump is a buffoon. Bannon, however, is not a buffoon.
There's always a hidden narrative, and usually towards the end of "deconstruction of the administrative state". And once you become tuned into it, the easier it becomes to spot. This whole wiretapping nonsense is yet another example of the anti-democratic Bannon pushing a hidden narrative.
Okay, so Trump says that he was wiretapped. While Obama himself would not have had the authority to do this, the fact remains that his administration could've have easily obtained the requisite authority. So then the question that gets lost in the blatant denials and media exuberance to refute Trump is, "well why didn't they?" The underlying implication is that Trump wasn't wiretapped because there was no reason for him to be wiretapped.
And the media, true to fashion, takes the bait, and continues to fail the American people; and as trust in government institutions falter; we inch ever closer, closer and closer, to Steve Bannon's agenda.
Bannon is no doubt a devious bastard, but this one is pretty simple. Trump is freaking out about Russia and lashed out on Twitter based on a Breitbart article based on a segment on Mark Levin's radio show. It's been reported his staff had no idea it was going to take place. And how could they?? Because Donald Trump is legitimately mentally unstable. Of course, his instincts when he goes off like this about what the right-wing base wants to hear is usually spot-on, so they end up following the narrative of whatever he tweeted, because the first rule of right-wing media strategy is to never admit a weakness or lie and always double-down on it.
It's amazing actually. Trump voters got what they wanted, but they can't seem to get Obama out of their heads. They still see him under their bed at night, turning their children gay and confiscating their guns.
The same person telling you Obama illegally spied on him is the same person who spent half a decade lying trying convince people he wasn't born in the United States.
By the way, if the Justice Department investigating or conducting a wiretap on Trump can be construed as "Obama", then you also have to say that ""Obama" was investigating Hillary's emails.
Unfortunately under the Obama administration there have been so many notable breaches of conduct that these allegations have to be taken seriously and elaborated on.
The IRS targeting republicans scandal for example.
As i said, it doesn't help that the powers of the NSA and FISA are so secretive and abused.
Agreed that the NSA and FISA are things with the problem of unlimited power - that's what Snowden showed.
But the many "notable breaches" are less scandals than Trump's had in one month. If the IRS targeted Republicans it is because they feel like they can get away with murder and cheat on their taxes disproportionately. Both things Trump has said ("I can shoot someone and not lose a vote")or done (obviously cheats on taxes or wouldn't go to such lying and pains to hide them) by the way.
"White House requests Congress investigate whether Obama administration wiretapped Trump"
Either they did and then lost the election - so it had no effect. Or they did because there was reason to do so and discovered criminal acts or treason.
Spicer's statement:
Reports concerning potentially politically motivated investigations immediately ahead of the 2016 election are very troubling.
President Donald J. Trump is requesting that as part of their investigation into Russian activity, the congressional intelligence committees exercise their oversight authority to determine whether executive branch investigative powers were abused in 2016.
Neither the White House nor the President will comment further until such oversight is conducted.
Yeah I'm calling BS on "Neither the White House nor the President will comment further until such oversight is conducted" - nothing will ever stop him from commenting to attack "his many enemies". He will however hide from the press as per usual, he's really afraid of the press for some reason, and won't answer questions. But you bet your behind he's going to comment.
EDIT: Trump has the authority to declassify anything. So he could also reveal the reasons his campaign had to be wiretapped to begin with. Like whatever treason or whatever he was suspected of.
I will continue to call out and correct any post that implies or even remains open to the idea that Obama did what Trump said. It's not only that he didn't, it's that he COULDN'T have. FISA warrants are nescessary to do this, a court order, and they are granted to the FBI and CIA. What Trump said yesterday is the same thing as when Trump said 3 million people voted illegally. It's a straight up goddamn lie. And Donald Trump is a cancer on whatver is left of American Democracy. This is getting to the point of being beyond politics and moving into the realm of survival of the Republic as we have known it thus far.
"I will continue to call out and correct any post that implies or even remains open to the idea that Obama did what Trump said. It's not only that he didn't, it's that he COULDN'T have. FISA warrants are nescessary to do this, a court order, and they are granted to the FBI and CIA."
Illegality only matters if the people in charge uphold the law. Our government has shown time and again that it has no interest in following the law itself.
Former DNI James Clapper has denied there was ever any wiretapping done on Donald Trump.
This is a surprising development.
If people are unaware, James Clapper has a history of completely denying anything the NSA does (saying there is no mass surveillance under Oath) then was proven categorically false, he was never taken to task for that false statement.
So now were in a confusing situation, anonymous reports in news outlets saying there was but unclear on the details, Anonymous FBI sources saying there was, Anonymous sources of the FBI saying there wasn't, Some anonymous reports saying there was but nothing suspicious was found, the head of the DNI saying there wasn't but he has lied before during Obama's term about the activities of the NSA.
This is what happens when we have secretive surveillance agencies with little oversight, we don't know what their doing but we do know the powers have been abused many times in the past and theres no accountability to make them tell the truth.
Former DNI James Clapper has denied there was ever any wiretapping done on Donald Trump.
This is a surprising development.
If people are unaware, James Clapper has a history of completely denying anything the NSA does (saying there is no mass surveillance under Oath) then was proven categorically false, he was never taken to task for that false statement.
So now were in a confusing situation, anonymous reports in news outlets saying there was but unclear on the details, Anonymous FBI sources saying there was, Anonymous sources of the FBI saying there wasn't, Some anonymous reports saying there was but nothing suspicious was found, the head of the DNI saying there wasn't but he has lied before during Obama's term about the activities of the NSA.
This is what happens when we have secretive surveillance agencies with little oversight, we don't know what their doing but we do know the powers have been abused many times in the past and theres no accountability to make them tell the truth.
This is false - "a history of completely denying anything the NSA does". He never completely denied anything the NSA does. Where did he say "the NSA doesn't do anything?". So the "anything the NSA does" is at best an exaggeration.
He did deny that there was mass surveillance was going on. Why would he do that when it later came out that there was mass surveillance going on?
The program was classified, he was not going to speak about it in a public forum. That is not a lie like the crap that Trump or his surrogates make up about voter fraud, winning the popular vote, or having the biggest inauguration crowd ever period. What Clapper did was not discuss a classified program in public.
If you want a look at how unhinged Trumpland is tonight, check out hatchet man Roger Stone's Twitter tirade tonight against a couple of women. I can't post them because they would break site rules.
“I do have a back-channel communication with Assange, because we have a good mutual friend,” Former Trump campaign manager Roger Stone said in October. “That friend travels back and forth from the United States to London and we talk. I had dinner with him last Monday.”
Reporter Sharyl Attkisson says feds hacked computer, CBS protected Obama The most incendiary charge: that Ms. Attkisson’s personal computer and CBS laptop were hacked after she began filing stories about Benghazi that were unflattering to the Obama administration. A source who checked her laptop said the hacker used spyware “proprietary to a government agency,” according to a Monday article in the New York Post. -http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/28/reporter-sharyl-attkisson-says-feds-hacked-compute/
Troubling, it seems the media is now focusing on any improper conduct of the Obama administration and surveillance.
Reporter Sharyl Attkisson says feds hacked computer, CBS protected Obama The most incendiary charge: that Ms. Attkisson’s personal computer and CBS laptop were hacked after she began filing stories about Benghazi that were unflattering to the Obama administration. A source who checked her laptop said the hacker used spyware “proprietary to a government agency,” according to a Monday article in the New York Post. -http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/28/reporter-sharyl-attkisson-says-feds-hacked-compute/
Troubling, it seems the media is now focusing on any improper conduct of the Obama administration and surveillance.
This story is about 3 or 4 years old, and it's also a load of crap. I listened to multiple interviews of her on right-wing radio shows at the time. This is what happened: she wrote some stories about Benghazi, her computer basically went on the fritz, and she immediately decided she was under surveillance. That was HER describing the story, not me. I listened to it in my car on the way to work. I remember it clear as day. You can drudge up anything you want from the right-wing fever swamp. I've heard them all already. Multiple times.
Just to be clear, no one here is obligated to respond to any argument. You may be interested in a certain discussion or debate, but no one is required to have it with you.
I don't want anyone here feeling like they are being personally challenged.
Just to be clear, no one here is obligated to respond to any argument. You may be interested in a certain discussion or debate, but no one is required to have it with you.
I don't want anyone here feeling like they are being personally challenged.
I never said anyone was obligated to do so, but if I have to refrain from using certain (totally common) turns of phrase, then so be it. I quoted no one in the post (purposefully), but frankly, this entire discussion is like arguing whether or not the moon is actually made of green cheese, so it's hard to even care anymore. It's clear there is a complete breakdown in this country on what basic reality is, and there is no bridging the divide.
@jjstraka34: No worries; you're not in trouble. I don't think anybody in this thread got their feathers ruffled by your comment, anyway--I just wanted to add a reminder.
I repeat these things every once in a while because they're easy to get lost in a massive thread like this one.
I have to call bullshit on this idea that Obama or any president 'cant' break the law. Of course he could. He was the most powerful person in the country and many of the people surrounding a president will follow their orders without hesitation. The question should be 'did' he, not 'could' he. There is no person in this forum that can unquestionably say this wiretapping didn't happen. I personally have a hard time believing it myself but I will not say that I know for sure it didn't happen!
I have to call bullshit on this idea that Obama or any president 'cant' break the law. Of course he could. He was the most powerful person in the country and many of the people surrounding a president will follow their orders without hesitation. The question should be 'did' he, not 'could' he. There is no person in this forum that can unquestionably say this wiretapping didn't happen. I personally have a hard time believing it myself but I will not say that I know for sure it didn't happen!
I believe one or more of the minions in Trump tower could have been tapped with probable cause. Not directed not by the President but out of actionable intelligence.
We know that the ambassador's calls were tapped - he's a Russian spy master. Once the wiretap on him started intercepting calls pouring in from the Trump campaign that probably led to the FISA order for the individual(s) at Trump Tower - where these people who were working deals with the Ambassador were located. We don't know the contents of those dealings but the FBI or other agencies presumably do. And if they pursued a wire tap based on that evidence that's not "Obama" directing the wiretap that's justice doing it.
If it was a legal wiretap then that will eventually come out. Justice does report to the president though. Even if Obama didn't personally ask for it, he's still responsible for it. Just as Bush was ultimately responsible for Katrina and Snyder for the Flint debacle. Something as important as this should have been reported to the president. If it wasn't then that is a bad judgement call on somebody's part. Sometimes it isn't 'good to be the king'...
Are we now at the point where anything Donald Trump says on Twitter deserves an investigation?? Are people at this point really still THIS inclined to take Donald Trump, who perhaps lies more frequently and brazenly than anyone else on Earth at the moment, the benefit of the doubt on ANYTHING??
Where is the promised investigation into 3 million illegals engaged in voter fraud?? Where is the evidence he promised about Obama's birth certificate?? For tha matter, where is the special prosecutor of Hillary (actually, I'm convinced he's holding the "lock her up" card in his back pocket for when shit really hits the fan)?? sooner everyone realizes Donald Trump is a pathological liar and very likely a sociopath, the better of you'll be.
Let's again remember what the majority of people here were saying on Tuesday. "What a great speech, he has turned the corner, I'm gonna give him a chance." Yeah....good luck with that.
By the way, the Dakota Access Pipeline running through Native land here in ND that Trump promised would be made with American steel. Turns out 25-40% of it is actually going to come from another country. I'll give you one guess as to which country that is, but I'm sure most of you can figure it out.....
If it was a legal wiretap then that will eventually come out. Justice does report to the president though. Even if Obama didn't personally ask for it, he's still responsible for it. Just as Bush was ultimately responsible for Katrina and Snyder for the Flint debacle. Something as important as this should have been reported to the president. If it wasn't then that is a bad judgement call on somebody's part. Sometimes it isn't 'good to be the king'...
Ok. So Trump's team was doing something illegal, which makes king Trump responsible. The justice department decided that they had probably cause that someone(s) in Trump's campaign was acting as an agent of a foreign power within the meaning of FISA and ordered a wiretap and it was approved. Presumably then they told Obama about it and he neither stopped the investigation into possible treason nor did he make the information public - despite knowing that such information if leaked to the public would hurt his party's political opponent.
wiretaps for national security aren't done on the cause of proven illegality, furthermore FISA is notorious for almost never rejecting a request despite the fact the burden to get one 'should' be very hard.
Clapper saying no wiretaps were even done, further confuses this entire issue.
wiretaps for national security aren't done on the cause of proven illegality, furthermore FISA is notorious for almost never rejecting a request despite the fact the burden to get one 'should' be very hard.
Clapper saying no wiretaps were even done, further confuses this entire issue.
It seems no one can get their story straight.
No, not "no one can get their story straight". Trump can't. No one else knows what the hell he is talking about. Clapper, Comey, nearly anyone who knows anything about this process. And it's because it came directly from Mark Levin's radio show via an article on Breitbart. Think about the power of the right-wing media echo chamber. You can have a crackpot radio host say something, and by Sunday there apparently needs to be a fullscale investigation of total bullshit. When one person makes something up how can people responding to it expect to have their "stories straight"?? But that's rather the point. We are living in a combination of "Catch-22" and "1984".
One of two things happened: either the FBI got a legal FISA warrant, or Trump is basing the whole thing on a Breitbart article that was circulating around the White House. There is no 3rd scenario.
By the way, the Dakota Access Pipeline running through Native land here in ND that Trump promised would be made with American steel. Turns out 25-40% of it is actually going to come from another country. I'll give you one guess as to which country that is, but I'm sure most of you can figure it out.....
As I stated previously, companies involved in canceled or held pipeline projects that Trump reordered were going to negotiate using the pieces that were already made in foreign countries instead of just having them collect dust in storage. Any new pieces are going to be made in the U.S. with U.S. steel. It's a fair compromise.
Comments
Trump is a buffoon. Bannon, however, is not a buffoon.
There's always a hidden narrative, and usually towards the end of "deconstruction of the administrative state". And once you become tuned into it, the easier it becomes to spot. This whole wiretapping nonsense is yet another example of the anti-democratic Bannon pushing a hidden narrative.
Okay, so Trump says that he was wiretapped. While Obama himself would not have had the authority to do this, the fact remains that his administration could've have easily obtained the requisite authority. So then the question that gets lost in the blatant denials and media exuberance to refute Trump is, "well why didn't they?" The underlying implication is that Trump wasn't wiretapped because there was no reason for him to be wiretapped.
And the media, true to fashion, takes the bait, and continues to fail the American people; and as trust in government institutions falter; we inch ever closer, closer and closer, to Steve Bannon's agenda.
The future is 1984. I am dead serious.
It's amazing actually. Trump voters got what they wanted, but they can't seem to get Obama out of their heads. They still see him under their bed at night, turning their children gay and confiscating their guns.
By the way, if the Justice Department investigating or conducting a wiretap on Trump can be construed as "Obama", then you also have to say that ""Obama" was investigating Hillary's emails.
But the many "notable breaches" are less scandals than Trump's had in one month. If the IRS targeted Republicans it is because they feel like they can get away with murder and cheat on their taxes disproportionately. Both things Trump has said ("I can shoot someone and not lose a vote")or done (obviously cheats on taxes or wouldn't go to such lying and pains to hide them) by the way.
Either they did and then lost the election - so it had no effect. Or they did because there was reason to do so and discovered criminal acts or treason.
Spicer's statement:
Reports concerning potentially politically motivated investigations immediately ahead of the 2016 election are very troubling.
President Donald J. Trump is requesting that as part of their investigation into Russian activity, the congressional intelligence committees exercise their oversight authority to determine whether executive branch investigative powers were abused in 2016.
Neither the White House nor the President will comment further until such oversight is conducted.
Yeah I'm calling BS on "Neither the White House nor the President will comment further until such oversight is conducted" - nothing will ever stop him from commenting to attack "his many enemies". He will however hide from the press as per usual, he's really afraid of the press for some reason, and won't answer questions. But you bet your behind he's going to comment.
EDIT: Trump has the authority to declassify anything. So he could also reveal the reasons his campaign had to be wiretapped to begin with. Like whatever treason or whatever he was suspected of.
Illegality only matters if the people in charge uphold the law. Our government has shown time and again that it has no interest in following the law itself.
This is a surprising development.
If people are unaware, James Clapper has a history of completely denying anything the NSA does (saying there is no mass surveillance under Oath) then was proven categorically false, he was never taken to task for that false statement.
So now were in a confusing situation, anonymous reports in news outlets saying there was but unclear on the details, Anonymous FBI sources saying there was, Anonymous sources of the FBI saying there wasn't, Some anonymous reports saying there was but nothing suspicious was found, the head of the DNI saying there wasn't but he has lied before during Obama's term about the activities of the NSA.
This is what happens when we have secretive surveillance agencies with little oversight, we don't know what their doing but we do know the powers have been abused many times in the past and theres no accountability to make them tell the truth.
He did deny that there was mass surveillance was going on. Why would he do that when it later came out that there was mass surveillance going on?
The program was classified, he was not going to speak about it in a public forum. That is not a lie like the crap that Trump or his surrogates make up about voter fraud, winning the popular vote, or having the biggest inauguration crowd ever period. What Clapper did was not discuss a classified program in public.
The most incendiary charge: that Ms. Attkisson’s personal computer and CBS laptop were hacked after she began filing stories about Benghazi that were unflattering to the Obama administration. A source who checked her laptop said the hacker used spyware “proprietary to a government agency,” according to a Monday article in the New York Post.
-http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/oct/28/reporter-sharyl-attkisson-says-feds-hacked-compute/
Troubling, it seems the media is now focusing on any improper conduct of the Obama administration and surveillance.
Just to be clear, no one here is obligated to respond to any argument. You may be interested in a certain discussion or debate, but no one is required to have it with you.
I don't want anyone here feeling like they are being personally challenged.
I repeat these things every once in a while because they're easy to get lost in a massive thread like this one.
We know that the ambassador's calls were tapped - he's a Russian spy master. Once the wiretap on him started intercepting calls pouring in from the Trump campaign that probably led to the FISA order for the individual(s) at Trump Tower - where these people who were working deals with the Ambassador were located. We don't know the contents of those dealings but the FBI or other agencies presumably do. And if they pursued a wire tap based on that evidence that's not "Obama" directing the wiretap that's justice doing it.
Where is the promised investigation into 3 million illegals engaged in voter fraud?? Where is the evidence he promised about Obama's birth certificate?? For tha matter, where is the special prosecutor of Hillary (actually, I'm convinced he's holding the "lock her up" card in his back pocket for when shit really hits the fan)?? sooner everyone realizes Donald Trump is a pathological liar and very likely a sociopath, the better of you'll be.
Let's again remember what the majority of people here were saying on Tuesday. "What a great speech, he has turned the corner, I'm gonna give him a chance." Yeah....good luck with that.
By the way, the Dakota Access Pipeline running through Native land here in ND that Trump promised would be made with American steel. Turns out 25-40% of it is actually going to come from another country. I'll give you one guess as to which country that is, but I'm sure most of you can figure it out.....
Clapper saying no wiretaps were even done, further confuses this entire issue.
It seems no one can get their story straight.
One of two things happened: either the FBI got a legal FISA warrant, or Trump is basing the whole thing on a Breitbart article that was circulating around the White House. There is no 3rd scenario.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/03/05/politics/clapper-trump-wiretap/