So, lets just say this as bluntly as a 14lb mallet: Because you won't use an option it's stupid and should be unavailable to others?
This would be like me insisting everyone else wears only size 15 boots, because I do.
You mean not everyone wears size 15 boots? I thought that was the whole point of boots.
But yes, you've pretty much nailed it--if you're wondering "Why on earth would there be a Story Mode?" then you're obviously not the sort of gamer for whom this option is intended.
If you're thinking "Finally I might be able to get through the game to see what all the fuss is about", or if you're @AndrewFoley and have trouble getting through the game even on Easy, then you're pretty much exactly the sort of gamer for whom this option is intended.
So, lets just say this as bluntly as a 14lb mallet: Because you won't use an option it's stupid and should be unavailable to others?
This would be like me insisting everyone else wears only size 15 boots, because I do.
You misunderstand. I just don't see why even a casual player would like a mode that makes them invincible. Maybe there is a reason and I'm just not seeing it, so I would like to see it.
Look, if someone is playing the game for the story, then why would they want to sit through all the pointless combat which they literally can't lose?
Unlike BG series game, IWD is very linear. If you face Kangaxx when you aren't ready, you will likely find it impossible to kiil him, but you can skip that battle and go somewhere else to gain xp, better items, recluting new NPCs or whtaever you like. But in IWD there's almost no respawn, so when you face an enemy, it means you HAVE to face that enemy. You can't go anywhere else, and you can't go back to kill again monster you already killed to gain more xp. You have no other options, you have to face that enemy even if you aren't ready! I believe Story Mode is intended for single situations where you find yourself not able to win a fight, so you enable to story mode, you win that fight, and you disable story mode, so you can go on with the game.
While it doesn't bother me to have the story mode included, it seems that the situation described above by @Pibaro will end up happening a lot. People aware of the story mode who have impulse control issues will lean on it like a crutch whenever they are facing a challenge, and may ultimately feel unsatisfied upon completion of the game as they had a "god mode" button for every challenge they encountered.
One of the main things that differentiates games from other sorts of entertainment is the player involvement, usually in the form of overcoming challenges of some sort: be they puzzles, riddles, mastering the mechanics of a combat system, etc. By removing that challenge entirely, the player may as well not be in control at all, a PC AI that controlled your party for you wouldn't change much of anything...
I'm not just commenting because I won't be using it either, I just genuinely think that this won't end up providing anything positive for anybody. As to the comment that there definitely is an audience for it because the game is too hard for some people even on easy mode, I still don't see a need for an invulnerable mode. My philosophy on difficulty is that everyone should be able to play on a difficulty level that challenges them to an enjoyable extent, so a great answer to easy mode being too difficult would have been an easier mode (or two) so that those finding easy mode too hard could find an appropriate level of challenge. I'd say that adding an invulnerable mode was miles easier for the developers undoubtedly, but it doesn't allow people that find easy mode too hard to play the game with any challenge at all. To me, that's a bit of a disappointment. As it won't hurt my game, I'm not personally affected, but the people needing an easier mode will be.
Has anyone here really ever had lasting fun playing a combat-focused game like IWD with a cheat that made you invulnerable to enemies? Has anyone ever noticed that having the ability to simply ctrl+y your enemies or ctrl+r yourself diminishes the fun of the challenge because you end up relying on them?
Hopefully I'll be proven wrong and people will find use for this and get some enjoyment out of it, but I'm not really seeing it.
the story mode would make sense for BG trilogy which actually has a complex story and some out-of-combat challenges (puzzles, riddles, different quest resolutions...)
doesn't make sense for IWD. story is not even that important there (although it's quite ok).
I think that the thought behind this mod is that the game is gonna be out like brand new and new people who don't know the game, don't even know what E2, TACH0 or AC or whatever the rules of the game are, like the less the AC the better, will buy it and as long as one don't know the mechanical of the game it is hard to understand, even the magic system isn't an easy one, so all that and hard game that you die all the time because it too hard is gonna be a really really frustrating to those people, so letting them know the game this way can really help them learn it and keep playing it instead of just quitting and not enjoy it at all.
I think that the thought behind this mod is that the game is gonna be out like brand new and new people who don't know the game, don't even know what E2, TACH0 or AC or whatever the rules of the game are, like the less the AC the better, will buy it and as long as one don't know the mechanical of the game it is hard to understand, even the magic system isn't an easy one, so all that and hard game that you die all the time because it too hard is gonna be a really really frustrating to those people, so letting them know the game this way can really help them learn it and keep playing it instead of just quitting and not enjoy it at all.
The "less AC is better" rule is pretty easy to figure out. When a new player puts armor on one of their characters, they notice that it lowers their armor class. The only possible reasons for this are either that low armor class is better, or wearing armor actually makes you LESS of a tank. The first possibility makes more sense.
As for THAC0, can't Beamdog simply put in the game some way of explaining how it works? I feel like the IE games would be a lot easier for new players to understand if the games explained more game mechanics.
The "less AC is better" rule is pretty easy to figure out. When a new player puts armor on one of their characters, they notice that it lowers their armor class. The only possible reasons for this are either that low armor class is better, or wearing armor actually makes you LESS of a tank. The first possibility makes more sense.
As for THAC0, can't Beamdog simply put in the game some way of explaining how it works? I feel like the IE games would be a lot easier for new players to understand if the games explained more game mechanics.
Well, they also could convert, at least on the UI display and rolls, THAC0 and AC to increase upwards similarly to simulate how it is done in IWD2.
So much easier for a new player to actually understand what is going on when the indicator starts from zero and goes upwards rather than some seemingly random base AC/THAC0 and going downwards.
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Personally, I think the best solution would be doing it by adding a help button like Temple of Elemental Evil does that has, essentially, all the games rules.
The "less AC is better" rule is pretty easy to figure out. When a new player puts armor on one of their characters, they notice that it lowers their armor class. The only possible reasons for this are either that low armor class is better, or wearing armor actually makes you LESS of a tank. The first possibility makes more sense.
As for THAC0, can't Beamdog simply put in the game some way of explaining how it works? I feel like the IE games would be a lot easier for new players to understand if the games explained more game mechanics
Well I don't know if it easy to all people to understand the ac system at first sight it take time but don't forget that the armors themselves are the lower the better not everyone that start playing understand that, people need help to understand thing like that maybe not all but some do.
AS for the THAC0 an explanation in the game can be good, as for if BD can do It I don't know it a question for @Dee and the others.
Well, they also could convert, at least on the UI display and rolls, THAC0 and AC to increase upwards similarly to simulate how it is done in IWD2.
So much easier for a new player to actually understand what is going on when the indicator starts from zero and goes upwards rather than some seemingly random base AC/THAC0 and going downwards.
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Personally, I think the best solution would be doing it by adding a help button like Temple of Elemental Evil does that has, essentially, all the games rules.
The can't convert the THAC0 and AC that the E2 rules and as far as I know (if I'm not mistaken) IWD2 is on the E3 rules set not the E2.
There's a full section in the game's manual that explains exactly how THAC0, Armor Class, and Saving Throws work. Though in PDF form it's not always readily accessible.
The can't convert the THAC0 and AC that the E2 rules and as far as I know (if I'm not mistaken) IWD2 is on the E3 rules set not the E2.
Yes, IWD2 is on uses 3rd Edition.
However, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't THAC0 more or less translate to 20-THAC0=Attack Bonus and 20-AC=True AC.
With this in mind, while it certainly is not as easy as it might seem (since all item/spell/kit tooltips need to be changed) changing the UI elements to display Attack Bonus (which is used in the die rolls on the chat log) and True AC is certainly possible right?
Personally, I do not really care since THAC0 and AC are trivial for me to understand but certainly seems like an improvement to me for newer players.
It turns out the genesis of the Story mode is based on feedback from a team member who was new to Infinity Engine games (from the latest interview).
That explains a lot.
A person like that should never be allowed to work on an old school RPG game, let alone an Infinity Engine game, even if he/she is just a writer and not a coder. Any chance he/she can be fired? IMO, if they do fire him/her, it can only be beneficial to the game in the long run.
A person like that should never be allowed to work on an old school RPG game, let alone an Infinity Engine game, even if he/she is just a writer and not a coder. Any chance he/she can be fired? IMO, if they do fire him/her, it can only be beneficial to the game in the long run.
Well technically I'm not a customer, as I have no intention to buy IWD:EE. One of the main reasons why I'm not a customer is that ideas like the "Story Mode" go against anything an old school RPG is supposed to be and if IWD:EE is not an old school RPG I'm simply not interested in buying it.
I can imagine a few situations in which a Story Mode could be quite useful. One is the unfortunate situation of getting deep into a dungeon and saving over your only quick save at the worst possible time, leaving your badly injured party behind enemy lines and with virtually no way to escape safely. The Story Mode could let you find your way back out without losing everyone. Yes, it's always wise to have multiple saves, but sometimes you get in the heat of the moment and forget.
Also, people assume it will be used to get past the hardest enemies, but I can imagine it being used for the opposite. There are places in the game where you can encounter small groups of enemies who are no threat, but who cause enough damage to require a bit of micromanagement. Maybe a player would just like to plow through the lower level mobs to get to the next big fight. Turn on Story Mode, clear the area of annoying pests, turn off Story Mode, utilize your skills to smack down the tough guys.
There are times, as well, when a player who has completed the game multiple times, might want to not bother with a particular battle. They've beaten it, multiple times, but it's never been fun for whatever reason. Story Mode would allow them to complete the area without having to fiddle with the console codes.
Another use of the Story Mode could be for kids. Now, I know some folks probably wouldn't advise letting the little ones play games involving turning blood thirsty monsters into bits of flying fleshy chunks, but to each their own, I say. Several of my friends have their kids sitting nearby watching while they play, and often the kids want to play too. Story Mode would let the kids bang away and the keyboard with wild abandon without getting a death screen every five minutes.
What I wonder about with this Story Mode is what happens if the players have, say, normal weapons and they encounter an enemy who can't be hit with anything but magical weapons. If Story Mode is on and they are invincible, will the battle go on forever? Might make for an interesting screen saver actually!
I can't understand why so many people is concerned about this.
- Who cares if someone else enables the story mode! It's really none of my business. - Am I worried that I might be seduced by the Dark Side of the Force and enable the story mode? Nope. Long ago I used to play Doom and Doom 2, and I never ever enabled the god mode.
So what? They should have made a different story mode? I don't think this is the point.
@Pibaro@kaguana the possibility of someone else enabling the story mode certainly isn't an actual issue for those that won't, it's only a potential issue in that it could end up decreasing the overall level of enjoyment of the game for those that do use it. Either way, it's not much of a concern.
The only actual problem as far as I'm concerned is that an invulnerable mode seems like a clearly sub-optimal way to deal with the stated issue of the easy mode being too hard for some people.
@Pibaro@kaguana the possibility of someone else enabling the story mode certainly isn't an actual issue for those that won't, it's only a potential issue in that it could end up decreasing the overall level of enjoyment of the game for those that do use it. Either way, it's not much of a concern.
The only actual problem as far as I'm concerned is that an invulnerable mode seems like a clearly sub-optimal way to deal with the stated issue of the easy mode being too hard for some people.
Possibility hmmm???? we can't know what it will do to others if it will effect or not the lvl of their enjoyment, that is up to them to decide.
While I don't really think an invulnerable mode is a good idea, who am I to say what good or bad for someone else, if it can help others to play the game and enjoy it, good for them, and if it not helping or make the game unenjoyable for other then just don't use it, that all.
It an option to the good or bad that is only up to the person who play to decide it.
The more I think about story mode the more I like the idea. As someone who needs emotional involvement with both the story and party members to enjoy the challenge of difficult battles, I never gave Icewind Dale much of a chance.
Although I know that for some, such things as extremely challenging combat just make the game even more enjoyable and exciting, I think there are probably also many out there who like me, get bored fairly quickly when hitting a wall that requires repeated reloads.
I am looking forward to completing the game and experiencing all it has to offer this time, knowing that I have the option of this new mode if an area becomes tedious instead of fun.
@Erg so does the Beamdog cleaning lady need to be an obsessed gamer too, or will she have no street cred with the RPG grognards around here?? Not every company employee has to be good at games, not even playtesters.
Also, since you already stated you aren't interested in buying IWDEE, why would anyone care about your opinion?
Story Mode or Ctrl R/Ctrl Y.. what's the difference. So much hate for IWD:EE here because of Story Mode, yet no where near as much for the BG:EE's with the cheat keys.
Spoony made a video some time ago about challenge in RPGs or games in general and he brings an example from an ADnD campaign he run as a DM.
Basically he said, "a game where you cannot lose is not a game but it's basically masturbation". And I agree, if you cannot lose in a game, it's not a game, it's a boring chore.
(Spoony for those that don't know is a popular retro RPG/game reviewer, comedian and has DMed DnD games since ADnD to Pathfinder and 4E and also played in them)
Personally, I agree with the people above that said that if people can just play the game being invulnerable they will feel no satisfaction and would get bored.
This is the point where he talks about the challenge factor in RPGs. But if you got curious, watch the whole video it's quite entertaining and interesting.
Comments
This would be like me insisting everyone else wears only size 15 boots, because I do.
But yes, you've pretty much nailed it--if you're wondering "Why on earth would there be a Story Mode?" then you're obviously not the sort of gamer for whom this option is intended.
If you're thinking "Finally I might be able to get through the game to see what all the fuss is about", or if you're @AndrewFoley and have trouble getting through the game even on Easy, then you're pretty much exactly the sort of gamer for whom this option is intended.
Look, if someone is playing the game for the story, then why would they want to sit through all the pointless combat which they literally can't lose?
If you face Kangaxx when you aren't ready, you will likely find it impossible to kiil him, but you can skip that battle and go somewhere else to gain xp, better items, recluting new NPCs or whtaever you like.
But in IWD there's almost no respawn, so when you face an enemy, it means you HAVE to face that enemy. You can't go anywhere else, and you can't go back to kill again monster you already killed to gain more xp. You have no other options, you have to face that enemy even if you aren't ready!
I believe Story Mode is intended for single situations where you find yourself not able to win a fight, so you enable to story mode, you win that fight, and you disable story mode, so you can go on with the game.
One of the main things that differentiates games from other sorts of entertainment is the player involvement, usually in the form of overcoming challenges of some sort: be they puzzles, riddles, mastering the mechanics of a combat system, etc. By removing that challenge entirely, the player may as well not be in control at all, a PC AI that controlled your party for you wouldn't change much of anything...
I'm not just commenting because I won't be using it either, I just genuinely think that this won't end up providing anything positive for anybody. As to the comment that there definitely is an audience for it because the game is too hard for some people even on easy mode, I still don't see a need for an invulnerable mode. My philosophy on difficulty is that everyone should be able to play on a difficulty level that challenges them to an enjoyable extent, so a great answer to easy mode being too difficult would have been an easier mode (or two) so that those finding easy mode too hard could find an appropriate level of challenge. I'd say that adding an invulnerable mode was miles easier for the developers undoubtedly, but it doesn't allow people that find easy mode too hard to play the game with any challenge at all. To me, that's a bit of a disappointment. As it won't hurt my game, I'm not personally affected, but the people needing an easier mode will be.
Has anyone here really ever had lasting fun playing a combat-focused game like IWD with a cheat that made you invulnerable to enemies? Has anyone ever noticed that having the ability to simply ctrl+y your enemies or ctrl+r yourself diminishes the fun of the challenge because you end up relying on them?
Hopefully I'll be proven wrong and people will find use for this and get some enjoyment out of it, but I'm not really seeing it.
doesn't make sense for IWD. story is not even that important there (although it's quite ok).
As for THAC0, can't Beamdog simply put in the game some way of explaining how it works? I feel like the IE games would be a lot easier for new players to understand if the games explained more game mechanics.
So much easier for a new player to actually understand what is going on when the indicator starts from zero and goes upwards rather than some seemingly random base AC/THAC0 and going downwards.
---
Personally, I think the best solution would be doing it by adding a help button like Temple of Elemental Evil does that has, essentially, all the games rules.
AS for the THAC0 an explanation in the game can be good, as for if BD can do It I don't know it a question for @Dee and the others. The can't convert the THAC0 and AC that the E2 rules and as far as I know (if I'm not mistaken) IWD2 is on the E3 rules set not the E2.
However, correct me if I am wrong but doesn't THAC0 more or less translate to 20-THAC0=Attack Bonus and 20-AC=True AC.
With this in mind, while it certainly is not as easy as it might seem (since all item/spell/kit tooltips need to be changed) changing the UI elements to display Attack Bonus (which is used in the die rolls on the chat log) and True AC is certainly possible right?
Personally, I do not really care since THAC0 and AC are trivial for me to understand but certainly seems like an improvement to me for newer players.
It turns out the genesis of the Story mode is based on feedback from a team member who was new to Infinity Engine games (from the latest interview).
A person like that should never be allowed to work on an old school RPG game, let alone an Infinity Engine game, even if he/she is just a writer and not a coder. Any chance he/she can be fired? IMO, if they do fire him/her, it can only be beneficial to the game in the long run.
While I agree that it explains a lot I would still refrain from evaluating whether a certain person should work for a certain company or not.
We are not his/her employer nor know what his/her professional and human skills, abilities and talents are.
The only thing we, as customers, can do is to approve or not to approve certain features and give our feedback on them.
Also, people assume it will be used to get past the hardest enemies, but I can imagine it being used for the opposite. There are places in the game where you can encounter small groups of enemies who are no threat, but who cause enough damage to require a bit of micromanagement. Maybe a player would just like to plow through the lower level mobs to get to the next big fight. Turn on Story Mode, clear the area of annoying pests, turn off Story Mode, utilize your skills to smack down the tough guys.
There are times, as well, when a player who has completed the game multiple times, might want to not bother with a particular battle. They've beaten it, multiple times, but it's never been fun for whatever reason. Story Mode would allow them to complete the area without having to fiddle with the console codes.
Another use of the Story Mode could be for kids. Now, I know some folks probably wouldn't advise letting the little ones play games involving turning blood thirsty monsters into bits of flying fleshy chunks, but to each their own, I say. Several of my friends have their kids sitting nearby watching while they play, and often the kids want to play too. Story Mode would let the kids bang away and the keyboard with wild abandon without getting a death screen every five minutes.
What I wonder about with this Story Mode is what happens if the players have, say, normal weapons and they encounter an enemy who can't be hit with anything but magical weapons. If Story Mode is on and they are invincible, will the battle go on forever? Might make for an interesting screen saver actually!
- Who cares if someone else enables the story mode! It's really none of my business.
- Am I worried that I might be seduced by the Dark Side of the Force and enable the story mode? Nope. Long ago I used to play Doom and Doom 2, and I never ever enabled the god mode.
So what?
They should have made a different story mode? I don't think this is the point.
The only actual problem as far as I'm concerned is that an invulnerable mode seems like a clearly sub-optimal way to deal with the stated issue of the easy mode being too hard for some people.
While I don't really think an invulnerable mode is a good idea, who am I to say what good or bad for someone else, if it can help others to play the game and enjoy it, good for them, and if it not helping or make the game unenjoyable for other then just don't use it, that all.
It an option to the good or bad that is only up to the person who play to decide it.
Although I know that for some, such things as extremely challenging combat just make the game even more enjoyable and exciting, I think there are probably also many out there who like me, get bored fairly quickly when hitting a wall that requires repeated reloads.
I am looking forward to completing the game and experiencing all it has to offer this time, knowing that I have the option of this new mode if an area becomes tedious instead of fun.
Good job Beamdog!
Also, since you already stated you aren't interested in buying IWDEE, why would anyone care about your opinion?
I don't get it.
Dear Andrew Foley, all we can do is to apologise on behalf of Erg. I'm so sorry!
Basically he said, "a game where you cannot lose is not a game but it's basically masturbation".
And I agree, if you cannot lose in a game, it's not a game, it's a boring chore.
(Spoony for those that don't know is a popular retro RPG/game reviewer, comedian and has DMed DnD games since ADnD to Pathfinder and 4E and also played in them)
Personally, I agree with the people above that said that if people can just play the game being invulnerable they will feel no satisfaction and would get bored.
This is the point where he talks about the challenge factor in RPGs. But if you got curious, watch the whole video it's quite entertaining and interesting.
Go to 29:00 minutes.