That's an... interesting... way to look at IWD2. With all respect for your dislike of the game, if you don't know when you're fighting the end boss maybe RPGs aren't for you? You're supposed to read through dialogue, journal entries, etc. to know what's going on.
Though I gotta admit (very) unspectacular end bosses are a trademark of the IWD series.
I actually love rpgs and do read the text, and I think the end boss of the first Icewind dale is perfect! Who doesn't want to fight a giant demon? Very satisfying. I didn't realize I was fighting the boss of the second game because the story was so boring and unfocused and I was so uninterested in the *spoiler* characters that were the bosses that up to the point the end credits were playing I thought for sure I was fighting the henchmen of the true boss. Some unrevealed, giant demon preferably.
Maybe it's just me but when it comes to end bosses I much prefer the Baldur's Gate approach. The "boss" gets introduced in the beginning but his motives are unclear. You chase him, find out more and more about the story, etc. until you finally stand face to face with him. That way you get this "Finally! I did it!" feeling when you beat the game.
The end boss of IWD is still just some random troublemaker to me. When you finally meet him he's basically already dead. In a few months I probably won't even remember his name anymore.
I wouldn't put myself through that again. While IWD2 introduced the BEST of character creation, the game itself was so NOT fun that I base what is not fun in other games off of my experience in IWD2. Most of the areas were lifted from the first game, so it didn't even feel like a new experience. The story is uninteresting. When I defeated the boss I didn't even know I was fighting the boss... But the worst is that most of the new areas are mazes. It's the kind of thing that game developers these days know not to do. There is even that area that is a maze of time, playing through the same dungeon over and over and over and over, getting a little further each time. Oh god it's awful and it makes me cringe just thinking about it.
Try it with friends, alcohol or both. Jokes aside I find it quite enjoyable, solo or with friends.
the end boss of Tob is unknown for most of the expansion though.
'Unknown'? Really? Hmm...
I figured it out at Gromnir's castle. The moment she threatened him, I knew.
I kinda figured she was hiding something, but for those of us who are less clairvoyant than you she is only definitely revealed when talking to Balthatzar I think.
the end boss of Tob is unknown for most of the expansion though.
'Unknown'? Really? Hmm...
I figured it out at Gromnir's castle. The moment she threatened him, I knew.
I kinda figured she was hiding something, but for those of us who are less clairvoyant than you she is only definitely revealed when talking to Balthatzar I think.
Yeh, that came off a little rude, sorry. But, yeh, it was foreshadowed a bit.
the end boss of Tob is unknown for most of the expansion though.
'Unknown'? Really? Hmm...
I figured it out at Gromnir's castle. The moment she threatened him, I knew.
I kinda figured she was hiding something, but for those of us who are less clairvoyant than you she is only definitely revealed when talking to Balthatzar I think.
Yeh, that came off a little rude, sorry. But, yeh, it was foreshadowed a bit.
I didn't think it was rude at all and yes it was foreshadowed quite a bit but guessing it when you first meet her is awesome.
One thing they could look to improve with it would be how the tables are displayed for stats in the character creation screen. For whatever reason the original makers of the game decided to be consistent with all their box sizes, but then cram as much info as possible into them. The end result being wisdom and intelligence end up looking like the screenshot below (in my opinion they are a pain to read). Improvements here are especially needed I think if they are looking to put the game on tablets or phones.
Though if they do make IWD2EE I kind of hope they are still able to take some of the good things from IWD2 and get them into BGEE/BG2EE/IWDEE (probably not though who knows). Not talking gameplay either, just the screens.
For instance the information screen for IWD2 actually has information on all stat/ability/races/classes etc. As you can see from this screenshot.
In that sense its miles ahead of the BGEE/BG2EE/IWDEE ones since you can check what bonuses your class is getting, what bonuses your strength and dexterity are giving you, what your race grants you, etc. All in game (without having to go into the character creation screen).
Maybe it's just me but when it comes to end bosses I much prefer the Baldur's Gate approach. The "boss" gets introduced in the beginning but his motives are unclear. You chase him, find out more and more about the story, etc. until you finally stand face to face with him. That way you get this "Finally! I did it!" feeling when you beat the game.
The end boss of IWD is still just some random troublemaker to me. When you finally meet him he's basically already dead. In a few months I probably won't even remember his name anymore.
Jon Irenicus on the other hand.... DAMN...
Best example of an unrevealed boss in these types of games is Planescape Torment. Without spoiling anything in that game (if you haven't played it buy a copy right now), you have no idea who or what the boss is until the very end, and even then you have to think about it for a while to make sense of it.
Might pick it up for old time's sake, but personally I feel IWD2 doesn't need a remake. The graphics were beautiful and 3E rules were implemented already. The story was much less engaging compared to all the other EE games and adding some class kits isn't going to help much. I'd much rather see an IWD3 - take a story as engaging as BG, give it atmosphere like IWD, make it as pretty as IWD2, add BG2 kits/HLAs/spell combat and bingo, game of the century.
Clicked "YES" in the poll for now. I dunno really. IWD2 would be new to me ... I know IWD:EE only ... one thing for sure, I liked BGEE much more. The many maps. The exploring! The freedom where to travel. NPCs that join the party. Levelling up from level 1 is fun in IWD:EE, too, ... and I wish BGEE would offer a larger world, more areas, a longer story up to level 11/12 perhaps ... but some of the things missing in IWD:EE I added in my mind.
I would 100% play the s*%t out of IWD2:EE if they ever make it. Same goes for Planescape: Torment..... I've played BG:EE, BG2:EE, and IWD:EE a crap ton as well as Neverwinter Nights and NWN II. They never get old or boring... Some of the best rpg's in the history of gamming and continue to weather the test of time. Can't wait to see how Pillars of Eternity and Torment: Tides of Numenera turn out in 2015/2016.... Believe Pillars announced it's release date for March 26th........ ^^
Now that I have finished my IWD2 playthrough I can say that there is definitely a lot of room for improvement. Imho an enhanced edition would be well worth it.
I disagree quite a bit. 2nd edition was basically botch-proof, because your stats actually didn't matter that much. Higher was better but not to the extent that higher is better like it is in 3rd edition. You multiclass several times without understanding the rules and you'll have a 80-90% xp penalty in no time.
Multiclassing in 2nd edition was fool-proof because there were no choices to make (and while you were generally a lvl or 2 behind a single class, your extra versatility and racial benefits more then compensated), and Dual-class was just complicated enough that you had to at least have a general idea of what you were doing in order to do it at all (and it explained it fairly well on the dual-class page).
Now BG's implementation of Dual-classing did introduce the ability to screw yourself if you dualed and didn't have enough xp/level cap to regain your previous abilities, where as in PnP, you never lost the abilities, you simply didn't gain experience if you used your previous abilities/favorable scores (such as using your fighter thac0 while you're supposed to learning how to fight in melee as a thief, which has different nuisances from the more direct fighter style) during an encounter until you'd surpassed your old class.
Also, 3rd uncapped HD, so while at lower levels of play the game is still similar, at higher levels of play (10+) everything turns into a slog fight of damage-sponges because while HP totals keep rising the spells are still using their 2nd edition damage caps (and melee damage dealt is actually lower, unless you're a rogue AND the target can be sneak-attacked).
And part of the problem is that IWD2 isn't 3.0. It's closer to 2.5 (though not Ruins of Myth Drannor level bad). It has the basic framework of 3.0 but keeps some of shortcomings and baggage of the infinity engine in general while generally doing a poor job of adapting things like feats (or the fact that mages don't gain their 2 guaranteed spells per level like they're supposed to that leaves them woefully under powered since IWD2 is even more stingy with good arcane scrolls then IWD1 was, unless you just got lucky on random loot drops), and makes it even less 3.0 then NWN's bare-bones adaption.
And while Thac0 could be daunting for someone who didn't know what the heck was going on, it also doesn't matter as all the calculations are done behind the scenes. It's essentially the exact same system 3.0 uses, just written out in a different fashion.
3.0 also introduced the idea that you MUST be high level to accomplish anything, since challenges have progressive DC ratings that must be met, where as 2nd edition works on a % system for most things or you're simply rolling against your own scores with modifiers. Where as in 2nd, you could be very much expected to beat epic level beasts at lvl 8-10 and could do it.
3rd edition is a min/maxer haven because they allowed it to an unprecedented degree over what you could do in 2nd edition. Even discounting supplements, the core rules still allow for ridiculous amounts of min/maxing, compared to 2nd. In 2nd, dual-classing was basically the extent and it was much less friendly then the 3rd edition version, because you had to be human (no bonuses at all aside for the ability to dual-class), and you had to have really good stats in multiple scores (on a 3d6 roll per stat with no gimmes like BG's does for you).
Prestiege classes though are where the real min-maxing happened, which IWD2 doesn't do, thankfully. Since they had no downsides (with only a handful of exceptions), merely minimum requirements.
Kits on the other hand were more balanced, since you generally sacrificed a lot (the more powerful the abilities a kit gave, the bigger it's penalties were) for what you got that was different (unlike BG's poorly adapted kits), and you could only ever have 1 kit on a character.
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As for IWD2. I've never really liked it. As a lot of people has mentioned the story is bland, boring, and REALLY hard to feel invested in, which is simply on top of all half-assed mechanical implementations that makes me unable to stomach playing the game, even with friends. I beat it once, but it was a long hard slog that I simply haven't been able to do again.
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As for actual games though I feel the accuracy of the adaption is paramont. IWD2 is a poor adaption at best. Arguably just as bad as BG's is.
ToEE was one of the only games I've been generally pleased with it's adaption. It's only real short-coming is the age of the module it was based on (and being set in Blandhawk), but I do give it points for it's adaption there as well since it was very accurate. Though IMO, it'd have been even better as a 2nd edition module with that degree of mechanical accuracy. 3rd edition always leaves this frusting sense of wanting to get to a higher level because you always feel so powerless, while in 2nd edition, a level or two under your belt and you are the terminator, and only get even more awesome.
In terms of power creep in terms of expectation to what a character can achieve at a given level, despite the seeming similarities, 1-5 in 2nd edition is like 1-10 in 3rd, 5-10 is like 10-20, and 10-20 is equivalent to epic levels in 3rd (the "epic" level guide for 2nd edition actually starts at lvl 10).
2nd is more about the adventure, rather then gaining levels, with level gains just being more a nice little extra.
In 3rd level gains are whole focus because everything depends on level. Having someone fall more then a level or two behind in 3rd for one reason or another can be of massive detriment to the party, while having party members in 2nd being 4-7 levels behind isn't a big deal, especially since some characters like demi-humans simply stop developing after a certain threshhold.
@ZanathKariashi - While I agree with you on most points that 2E is superior (personal and highly subjective opinion that I hold), I was personally commenting that a full 3.5E would be better than the faux 3.0 implementation that IWD2 got originally. In that, although 3.5 isn't "Better" (in my personal view) than 2E, it is "better" than 3.0E as I think almost everyone would agree (hence the reason they 'Fixed' 3.0E into 3.5). I'd love to see IWD2:EE to be in 2E? Failing that, and assuming that it can even be done (without excessive extra work and contract disputes) 3.5 would be my next choice.
And yes, there are whole sites devoted to 'Optimizing' your character builds in 3.5E (mainly made for NWN2). Which is fine, if you like that sort of thing.
Oh yeah, part of my dislike for IWD2, in addition to it's other issues is the half-assed adaption, that is caught somewhere between the old 2nd edition IE games and the new 3.0 ruleset, and misses a lot of the good of either system. And as with the IE games, the switch to RT/w P over turn-based required similar sacrifices that just annoy me on so many levels.
About the only thing IWD2 did that I genuinely liked was the modular interface that could be customized fully to your liking, instead of it simply giving you a static list of ability options.
I have mixed feelings for the static amount of stats at creation, because it removes randomness and makes things feel clinical, though it does prevent people running around with god-stats. So it's a hard call. it's probably better, since there's no real way to prevent people from re-rolling till they get what they want. Even ToEE Ironman mode could be pretty easily cheated if you wanted to go that far.
Though, IMO, just changing the order of character creation in the other IE games so that stats are rolled before race and class are picked would massively reduce the incentive to re-roll, since you'd go from getting a 80+ roll almost guaranteed to getting ~60 rolls most of the time.
Though, IMO, just changing the order of character creation in the other IE games so that stats are rolled before race and class are picked would massively reduce the incentive to re-roll, since you'd go from getting a 80+ roll almost guaranteed to getting ~60 rolls most of the time.
I get what you are saying here since some race/class combinations have high Minimums for certain stats (Paladin as for instance). I think in the end, people are going to roll until they get what they want anyway. The fact that race/class cuts things off, only limits the number of re-rolls. At least that is what I suspect.
And again, I 100% agree. I LOVED ToEE despite it being quite buggy. I never understood why BG had to go the way of Real time with pause. That having been said, I still think it is one of the most phenomenal games despite that. But yeah, could have been better (though I suspect it wouldn't have sold as well because of that fact). Ah well.
For me, I confess to having expectations about certain stats/abilities. I don't Min/max (much), but I do expect that my Dwarf will have a 19 con and at least a 17 STR. On the other hand, my "Main" is a wizard that could be built on a 72 point roll. Same with my thief. But I pick characters less for their superiority and more for them fitting the image I have of them in my head.
And that is one of the strengths (in my view) of 2E. In most cases, having 18s across the board didn't help. Your 18 STR Wizard (unless you were dual classing to Fighter) really didn't buy you anything. Might as well have a 10 STR for all the good it does beyond about level 4. 3.5E seemed more about "Optimization", or that is what it ended up being with the NWN sites designed around same. It felt less like playing a role and more about being the ultimate 'Build'. But I admit this might simply be my view and not representative of all of the players.
The amount of build-happy folks playing BG isn't much better - you just have fewer options to tinker with. Until you start throwing in mods, of course.
My problem with 3rd edition implementation is the Character Level instead of Class Level - prestige classes are the implementation of multi-classes in most cases, or flavor in a lot of others. Instead of kitting at the beginning you have to work your way up to it. As long as you meet the requirements, game on.
That said, flavor is more fun in 3rd edition but the sheer amount of options can also cause decision paralysis.
If they adapted the IWD2 assets to IWD:EE I'd be happy as a clam if they just tweaked the encounters into 2e terms and added some restructured HLA's in place of the feats.
If they did a full IWD2:EE then I'd love it if they added a bunch of prestige classes to compensate for the weird Multi- mechanic. At some point I HAVE to stop thinking about how many levels is optimal for my fighter/mage and the Eldritch Knight helps me out.
Comments
Though I gotta admit (very) unspectacular end bosses are a trademark of the IWD series.
But really, though, the mazes were the worst.
The end boss of IWD is still just some random troublemaker to me. When you finally meet him he's basically already dead. In a few months I probably won't even remember his name anymore.
Jon Irenicus on the other hand.... DAMN...
I figured it out at Gromnir's castle. The moment she threatened him, I knew.
anyhoo, please give me a warlock to play or - better yet - implement 5th edition into it!
How many extra 6th level spells does 27 wisdom give you
TIMES UP
For instance the information screen for IWD2 actually has information on all stat/ability/races/classes etc. As you can see from this screenshot.
In that sense its miles ahead of the BGEE/BG2EE/IWDEE ones since you can check what bonuses your class is getting, what bonuses your strength and dexterity are giving you, what your race grants you, etc. All in game (without having to go into the character creation screen).
billion!
I'd pay full price for that.
Multiclassing in 2nd edition was fool-proof because there were no choices to make (and while you were generally a lvl or 2 behind a single class, your extra versatility and racial benefits more then compensated), and Dual-class was just complicated enough that you had to at least have a general idea of what you were doing in order to do it at all (and it explained it fairly well on the dual-class page).
Now BG's implementation of Dual-classing did introduce the ability to screw yourself if you dualed and didn't have enough xp/level cap to regain your previous abilities, where as in PnP, you never lost the abilities, you simply didn't gain experience if you used your previous abilities/favorable scores (such as using your fighter thac0 while you're supposed to learning how to fight in melee as a thief, which has different nuisances from the more direct fighter style) during an encounter until you'd surpassed your old class.
Also, 3rd uncapped HD, so while at lower levels of play the game is still similar, at higher levels of play (10+) everything turns into a slog fight of damage-sponges because while HP totals keep rising the spells are still using their 2nd edition damage caps (and melee damage dealt is actually lower, unless you're a rogue AND the target can be sneak-attacked).
And part of the problem is that IWD2 isn't 3.0. It's closer to 2.5 (though not Ruins of Myth Drannor level bad). It has the basic framework of 3.0 but keeps some of shortcomings and baggage of the infinity engine in general while generally doing a poor job of adapting things like feats (or the fact that mages don't gain their 2 guaranteed spells per level like they're supposed to that leaves them woefully under powered since IWD2 is even more stingy with good arcane scrolls then IWD1 was, unless you just got lucky on random loot drops), and makes it even less 3.0 then NWN's bare-bones adaption.
And while Thac0 could be daunting for someone who didn't know what the heck was going on, it also doesn't matter as all the calculations are done behind the scenes. It's essentially the exact same system 3.0 uses, just written out in a different fashion.
3.0 also introduced the idea that you MUST be high level to accomplish anything, since challenges have progressive DC ratings that must be met, where as 2nd edition works on a % system for most things or you're simply rolling against your own scores with modifiers. Where as in 2nd, you could be very much expected to beat epic level beasts at lvl 8-10 and could do it.
3rd edition is a min/maxer haven because they allowed it to an unprecedented degree over what you could do in 2nd edition. Even discounting supplements, the core rules still allow for ridiculous amounts of min/maxing, compared to 2nd. In 2nd, dual-classing was basically the extent and it was much less friendly then the 3rd edition version, because you had to be human (no bonuses at all aside for the ability to dual-class), and you had to have really good stats in multiple scores (on a 3d6 roll per stat with no gimmes like BG's does for you).
Prestiege classes though are where the real min-maxing happened, which IWD2 doesn't do, thankfully. Since they had no downsides (with only a handful of exceptions), merely minimum requirements.
Kits on the other hand were more balanced, since you generally sacrificed a lot (the more powerful the abilities a kit gave, the bigger it's penalties were) for what you got that was different (unlike BG's poorly adapted kits), and you could only ever have 1 kit on a character.
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As for IWD2. I've never really liked it. As a lot of people has mentioned the story is bland, boring, and REALLY hard to feel invested in, which is simply on top of all half-assed mechanical implementations that makes me unable to stomach playing the game, even with friends. I beat it once, but it was a long hard slog that I simply haven't been able to do again.
--------------------------------
As for actual games though I feel the accuracy of the adaption is paramont. IWD2 is a poor adaption at best. Arguably just as bad as BG's is.
ToEE was one of the only games I've been generally pleased with it's adaption. It's only real short-coming is the age of the module it was based on (and being set in Blandhawk), but I do give it points for it's adaption there as well since it was very accurate. Though IMO, it'd have been even better as a 2nd edition module with that degree of mechanical accuracy. 3rd edition always leaves this frusting sense of wanting to get to a higher level because you always feel so powerless, while in 2nd edition, a level or two under your belt and you are the terminator, and only get even more awesome.
In terms of power creep in terms of expectation to what a character can achieve at a given level, despite the seeming similarities, 1-5 in 2nd edition is like 1-10 in 3rd, 5-10 is like 10-20, and 10-20 is equivalent to epic levels in 3rd (the "epic" level guide for 2nd edition actually starts at lvl 10).
2nd is more about the adventure, rather then gaining levels, with level gains just being more a nice little extra.
In 3rd level gains are whole focus because everything depends on level. Having someone fall more then a level or two behind in 3rd for one reason or another can be of massive detriment to the party, while having party members in 2nd being 4-7 levels behind isn't a big deal, especially since some characters like demi-humans simply stop developing after a certain threshhold.
And yes, there are whole sites devoted to 'Optimizing' your character builds in 3.5E (mainly made for NWN2). Which is fine, if you like that sort of thing.
About the only thing IWD2 did that I genuinely liked was the modular interface that could be customized fully to your liking, instead of it simply giving you a static list of ability options.
I have mixed feelings for the static amount of stats at creation, because it removes randomness and makes things feel clinical, though it does prevent people running around with god-stats. So it's a hard call. it's probably better, since there's no real way to prevent people from re-rolling till they get what they want. Even ToEE Ironman mode could be pretty easily cheated if you wanted to go that far.
Though, IMO, just changing the order of character creation in the other IE games so that stats are rolled before race and class are picked would massively reduce the incentive to re-roll, since you'd go from getting a 80+ roll almost guaranteed to getting ~60 rolls most of the time.
And again, I 100% agree. I LOVED ToEE despite it being quite buggy. I never understood why BG had to go the way of Real time with pause. That having been said, I still think it is one of the most phenomenal games despite that. But yeah, could have been better (though I suspect it wouldn't have sold as well because of that fact). Ah well.
For me, I confess to having expectations about certain stats/abilities. I don't Min/max (much), but I do expect that my Dwarf will have a 19 con and at least a 17 STR. On the other hand, my "Main" is a wizard that could be built on a 72 point roll. Same with my thief. But I pick characters less for their superiority and more for them fitting the image I have of them in my head.
And that is one of the strengths (in my view) of 2E. In most cases, having 18s across the board didn't help. Your 18 STR Wizard (unless you were dual classing to Fighter) really didn't buy you anything. Might as well have a 10 STR for all the good it does beyond about level 4. 3.5E seemed more about "Optimization", or that is what it ended up being with the NWN sites designed around same. It felt less like playing a role and more about being the ultimate 'Build'. But I admit this might simply be my view and not representative of all of the players.
My problem with 3rd edition implementation is the Character Level instead of Class Level - prestige classes are the implementation of multi-classes in most cases, or flavor in a lot of others. Instead of kitting at the beginning you have to work your way up to it. As long as you meet the requirements, game on.
That said, flavor is more fun in 3rd edition but the sheer amount of options can also cause decision paralysis.
If they adapted the IWD2 assets to IWD:EE I'd be happy as a clam if they just tweaked the encounters into 2e terms and added some restructured HLA's in place of the feats.
If they did a full IWD2:EE then I'd love it if they added a bunch of prestige classes to compensate for the weird Multi- mechanic. At some point I HAVE to stop thinking about how many levels is optimal for my fighter/mage and the Eldritch Knight helps me out.