So I typed a huge rant about my gripes with 2nd edition and how I'd love a proper 3.5 IWD2:EE but then I figured screw it I'll just type a single sentence to get my feels across.
I like point buy as opposed to rolling for stats so I say yes, let's do IWD2:EE!
So I typed a huge rant about my gripes with 2nd edition and how I'd love a proper 3.5 IWD2:EE but then I figured screw it I'll just type a single sentence to get my feels across.
I like point buy as opposed to rolling for stats so I say yes, let's do IWD2:EE!
That's a valid view point. I like random die rolls myself. It's a preference.
My favorite thing to do in the more later aged DnD games was to make Fighter/Paladins and Barb/Fighter/Thieves... like in NWN and Icewind Dale 2- it is more of just fun thing to do - not a powergame option- as a pure barbarian or pure fighter always beats a silly BArb/ftr /thief. And of course I would still stack strength for my Fighter Paladin which made him weak too. but much more fun from a character ideal of being a Fighter Paladin - or Fafrd the Barbarian fighter rouge (although I never gave him any bard levels) or the Grey mouser Fighter thief... I super gimped myself by Making Ryald Argirth a Drow Thief/Fighter - who goes on to always wear plate and barely does 2 levels of thief in IcwindDale 2. Ithink he leveled so slow as a Drow and had the experience penalty after he had a disproportionate amount of Fighter levels.
of course in real life I was a Ranger/Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian/Viking/Hunter... with a ton of barbarain rage that made me fatigued afterwards and want to eat MRE crackers. also had a Flame Strike Spell I could call on as long as the com worked. but I think I have stopped leveling since I got out of the marines- unless Sumo levels count.
Meanwhile I've purchased and downloaded "IWD 2 complete" at a well-known Games site ... and I love it ... so far. That is, I'm at the Western Pass. After restarting from the beginning several times to restructure my party and still be excited about not only the possibilities with the different set of rules, but also the options during gameplay.
Pure fighter runs out of feats actually, so Barbarian is a solid primary class, with 4-10 Fighter levels. Rogue can have nice synergy with Barbarian in 3rd as a damage dealer. You will hit hard!
I really hope they do make this and Planescape to complete the "series" so to speak. I have my doubts that it will happen. Icewind Dale was Baldur's Gate in everything but name, engine-wise. Planescape's UI is far different, and IWD2 is a whole different ball of wax. As much as I'd like to see them, Beamdog is probably better off making new adventures in the engine they have a handle on.
So I was going through a few drawers the other day and I came across this.
My sucky cell phone camera does not help emphasize its greatness.
All these years later I still have the manual and its basically untouched (along with the small map you get as well). All things considered I thought that was pretty cool.
One odd thing I noticed is that for the spell descriptions they list them all out alphabetically and not by level. In other words you have priest spells mixed with mage spells, with a level 1 potentially next to a level 9 spell.
If Overhaul does remake the game I think they should organize them by level and class (as they are in BGEE/BG2EE/IWDEE).
@elminster yeh, I have that, too. I also have the original disks from back in the day. They're a bit too scratched up to play, though, which is why I want this EE.
I think many of us would probably be more behind IWD2:EE if certain changes happen. Possible solutions:
-Fix the really painfully tedious puzzles of the Glacier and the Forest. These are game screwingly harsh on newbies. I quit several runs at the Glacier puzzle hell, and I used to play some Sierra puzzle adventure games. Still didnt find these two puzzles intuitive. Easy solutions include high intelligence characters giving tips, or just handwave the whole lightning thing. It was a cool idea, but seems hard to implement in a way that isnt sanity damaging. For the Forest, make Wilderness Lore even simpler to use for it... just say which direction maybe? I liked that the game rewards having a balanced party, perhaps make Wilderness Lore give some other mechanical bonus to survival, ie safer resting outdoors? More effective outdoor resting? As it is, this is the only reason to use Wilderness Lore, and a newbie caught without it will probably consider rage quitting.
-Make rolling stats optional. Obviously just porting the BG rolling system would make 3rd edition a bit absurd, so probably don't allow fine-tunning, which no DM I have heard of would be okay with. Make it 'Random or Point Buy' maybe? I prefer the point buy, but random 4d6 is good for 3rd too. BG finetuning and high total will be overpowered though. 3rd makes a 15 a solid score to start with, in 2nd this was a crappy score for a critical ability.
-Include even more dialogues, especially more that are class/race specific, but also include more 'hard to miss' ones. If you don't talk to a certain ghost, the game is much less enjoyable, and the story less powerful BY FAR.
-Add in some non-linear quests, nothing big, just some 'optional' areas to explore, maybe the Vale? The repopulated ruins of the Temple of the Forgotten God? Just ideas. Easy ones. A harder option would be an expansion quest after the conclusion. Harder to do!
-update to 3.5 maybe, Bard, Ranger, Monk and Barbarian are greatly improved, and gnome bard encouragement is cool. Skill names are improved in a few cases.
-fix Improved Initiative? And the feat bugs. Things like Weapon Finesse not working for unarmed were g atrociously bad for monks. Probably add some more feats, there ard a literal crapton of feats in 3.x to choose from, just add some reasonable ones in, especially for Fighters.
-offer Prestige classes? Ideally just use core rules ones, but feel free to not include hard to implement or inappropriate ones. Some others might be fine too, but no need for a huge heap of them.
If only it didn't use the newer ruleset. Seeing as how they would have to rebuild the game anyway and going back to 2.5 is out of the question due to WotC, then they should at least either update to 4th edition or import the point buy system. Rerolling ability scores is so counterintuitive and tiresome, and I imagine makes it very hard to balance the game's difficulty from a development standpoint.
IWD2 uses point buy only already. Some people prefer random scores though, so making rolling (without adjustments) optional might make some people happier. 3.x imho is a pretty good and still well liked system, though 3.0 (what IWD2 uses) has some glaring issues with some classes, most notably Ranger and Bard. Rangers outrightly sucked in 3.0 unless you were going to take only 1 level, which rightly was irksome to players. Barbarian was weak in 3.0, but less so in IWD2 as fighters will run out of good feats to take very quickly.
PLEASE BEAMDOG!!! of all the infinity engine games, IWDII is my fave STRICTLY because of the 3.0 edition of the D&D rules. i cannot stand the 2nd ed, ruleset, and no this isn't coming from a 20 something who grew up with 3.5... i am a late 30 something, who grew up in the era of 1st ed, the OG box sets and 2nd ed advanced etc... i never liked the system. and when i branched into other tabletop games it made it even worse.
don't get me wrong, D&D will ALWAYS have a special place in my heart, but once i played Earthdawn it ruined 2nd ED for me competely, thats why when 3.0/3.5 came along i loved that it fixed a lot of the dumb rules of 2nd ed IMO.
I even own the recent re-release box set of all the old D&D games that includes BG 1&2, ToEE, planescape and IWD 1 and 2, and i really only bought it to play IWD II and ToEE!!! so i bought BG EE, i liked it and just tried to get over the fact that even though i dont love THACO and the shitty weapon stats and goofy rogue//ranger skills, i did realize that for a PC game its not so bad... so just last night i bought BG 2 EE and i am LOVING IT!!!! to my surprise, (not because of beamdog, but because of 2nd ed) and let me sayt beamdog just crushed it out of the fuggin park on this one...
so PLEASE, give IWD II the same treatment, man, i can't wait...................
After a lot of debating I've decided against another run of IWD:EE and to go for IWD II instead. Downloaded the widescreen mod, Fix Pack & Tweak Pack and created my party. Well, what can I say.... the Enhanced Edition has totally spoiled me. While I thoroughly enjoy the 3E rule set, new sub-races and all the other great things the game has to offer I really miss the comfort of IWD:EE. Quick loot bar, Scaling UI and text size with resolution, polished inventory and record pages, etc.
So Beamdog... make Icewind Dale II: Enhanced Edition! Pretty please...?
IWD2 uses point buy only already. Some people prefer random scores though, so making rolling (without adjustments) optional might make some people happier. 3.x imho is a pretty good and still well liked system, though 3.0 (what IWD2 uses) has some glaring issues with some classes, most notably Ranger and Bard. Rangers outrightly sucked in 3.0 unless you were going to take only 1 level, which rightly was irksome to players. Barbarian was weak in 3.0, but less so in IWD2 as fighters will run out of good feats to take very quickly.
I thought point buy wasn't implemented until 4th Edition. I've never played IWD2 but I'm glad to hear that. Kotor used point buy and it was 3E also. But as far as I know point buy was introduced in 4th edition. I could be wrong, I'm not as knowledgeable as some.
IWD2 uses point buy only already. Some people prefer random scores though, so making rolling (without adjustments) optional might make some people happier. 3.x imho is a pretty good and still well liked system, though 3.0 (what IWD2 uses) has some glaring issues with some classes, most notably Ranger and Bard. Rangers outrightly sucked in 3.0 unless you were going to take only 1 level, which rightly was irksome to players. Barbarian was weak in 3.0, but less so in IWD2 as fighters will run out of good feats to take very quickly.
I thought point buy wasn't implemented until 4th Edition. I've never played IWD2 but I'm glad to hear that. Kotor used point buy and it was 3E also. But as far as I know point buy was introduced in 4th edition. I could be wrong, I'm not as knowledgeable as some.
If I recall point buy was an optional rule in 3E as it is with Pathfinder and such. Never played 4th Edition myself and didn't know it used point buy lol.
IWD2 didn't use the official point buy system and more of a semi-one.
Like it didn't incorporate the "14 costs 2 points, 16 cost 3, etc" it was every point was 1 point.
Im surprised (and to be honest, disappointed) they didnt implement IWD 2's interface in all the enhanced editions they released, it's vastly superior to that of other infinity engine games. Hopefully they'll release IWD2 EE and hopefully someone will make an IWD2 EE interface mod for the previous EE games .
3.0 definately had point buy as optional in the DMG, and once I tried using it, I quickly appreciated the premise that you could build what you actually want. The extreme cost of an 18 meant few classes would even consider buying one, even in a 'high power' buy, which gives 32 points. Thats enough for 2 18s, with 4 8s, or more feasible for almost any build, 2 or 3 16s, and otherwise decent stats. Sorcerers likely would want 18 Charisma, and Wizards 18 Intelligence, but Druids and and Clerics often like better rounded stats, unless they are going all out caster,
Planescape Torment used point buy too, for the same reason I suspect, as it allows more input on what character you are going to play.
Its really a paradigm shift, as the random roll system originally was intended to essentially tell you what you are going to be roleplaying, while point buy allow you that privilege. I am not even averse to the premise of just choosing stats either, not from an array but whatever you feel is appropriate for the character. This would require pretty mature gamers to not be abused, but with a good bunch on the same page stylewise, it can work beautifully. What DM worries about rolling stats for a villain?? If they need 16 in 4 stats to be effective at what the DM wants them to do, they are getting those stats.
@Vallmyr it didn't give a ton of points to play around with though, so you still had tough choices for weirder builds. Monks were infuriating IMHO because you had no Weapon Finesse for fists, so you couldn't run a tank-monk as well as you could in PnP, where a monk can be very effective with subpar strength but solid dexterity and wisdom.
I am ashamed to admit that I have never actually played IWD2, but I cannot imagine disliking it. After all, I love all the other Infinity Engine games (and the Enhanced Editions doubly so). I actually am a fan of the 3E ruleset, and I am interested to see how well it works in this engine. If anyone can make a good port of this game, it's Beamdog!
Icewind Dale 2 has some problems. Such as none of the preselected parties in the game are powerful enough to complete the game. This isn't a huge problem because most people make their own parties however it does show how difficult Icewind Dale 2 is.
I would prefer Planescape Torment: EE rather than Icewind Dale 2: EE.
Actually, I think the premade parties are sufficient, though you will have a hard time likely in HoF mode. Mind you, HoF mode is really brutal in IWD2, so most parties have a hard time. The HoF Cera Sumat fight is almost unreasonably hard, even by HoF standards.
Stats are more forgiving in 3rd ed than in 2nd, as 2nd offers so little mechanical differences until quite high or quite low. That said, min-maxing is still quite powerful, and 20 dex is much better than 13, especially early.
The biggest issue with playing IWD2 is the XP penalty for uneven non-favoured classes. You can make some characters that sound really strong, but end up nearly unplayable if you REALLY mess up.
Woaaah! Finished IWD2 with my 5th party --- a hell of a fun.
Starting the game, saving at the initial location on the ship and then adding/removing characters to change the party composition several times before starting to play was very helpful to create a mixed-aligned party (role-playing purposes) I was happy with:
fighter/barbarian shield dwarf ended as level 14/2 with barb.rage only a choice of extra safety, shield plus large swords, flails
ranger/fighter light armor, dual-wielding from the start on, four points in concentration and four fighter levels for weapon skills ... also spent quite some points on bow/ranged skills to make him a killer with arrows next to small blades and a mace in the main hand ... messed up the caster part with low wisdom, but didn't reach high levels to cast more than level 1-2 anway
cleric of helm pure, with mace and crossbow, the old-school supporter and healer ... didn't pay much attention to his performance in melee/ranged combat
bard pure, female, the leader, focus on buffing spells and some like Grease ... I only choose this because of experience in IWDEE .. liked finding instruments, but in a different party, the bard would be a wasted slot
wizard only learnt a fraction of all the scrolls I found ... six or seven scroll cases full ... early on also a beast with high DEX and bow skill ... amazing, and once again after this 1st playthrough a sorceress is more tempting
rogue pure, tiefling, overwhelmed with skill points to spend on ... pickpocketing early on is awesome, but interest in it wears off quickly once you run into NPCs where stealing doesn't work anymore, and save'n'reload often is too cheesy in my point of view --- so, I tried to make him a versatile fighter relying on high DEX, small blades and missiles ... and, of course, the dude to disarm traps and open chests
Some more conclusions:
The fighter could have become more offensive. I was too scared and made him wear a shield in addition to heavy armor. A two-handed weapon might have been the better choice, given that those are not rare. From all the different shields I found and distributed to the fighter and cleric, eventually I forgot changing them. I had kept half a dozen different shields in the bags, but completed most of the final chapters with an unspectacular +3 shield forgetting missile attacks and the effect of any reflex/dex bonus.
The ranger ... with the help of healing from time to time no big deal in studded leather +2. Kept lots of optional equipment in the bags, including some cursed armor and weapons, but never used them. Wilderness skill was helpful in the Fell Wood, but not necessary. I draw maps and insisted on verifying paths where the ranger claimed they lead "to nowhere".
There are some chapters/dungeons where taking detailed notes is necessary. On good ol' paper! And saving the game very often not just with quicksave. Or else you can get stuck. The monastery almost made me mad ... until I revisited all my options and decided to let my priest be the only one to enter all eight test chambers.
A lot of loot to find. Much more than in IWDEE. Enough to fill the inventory of six characters, half a dozen potion cases and two bags of holding. Several times I had just bought new equipment after selling expensive arrows, bolts and darts when after the next ambush, I found a bunch of enchanted items of similar quality. Aaaah!
I'll probably play it again with a more specialized experimental party including a Monk and perhaps also a Druid. I don't like them, but this story has raised my interest in both of them.
Comments
I like point buy as opposed to rolling for stats so I say yes, let's do IWD2:EE!
I'd buy it. And play it to death. But the lack of non-human deities saddens me.
of course in real life I was a Ranger/Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian/Viking/Hunter... with a ton of barbarain rage that made me fatigued afterwards and want to eat MRE crackers. also had a Flame Strike Spell I could call on as long as the com worked. but I think I have stopped leveling since I got out of the marines- unless Sumo levels count.
My sucky cell phone camera does not help emphasize its greatness.
All these years later I still have the manual and its basically untouched (along with the small map you get as well). All things considered I thought that was pretty cool.
One odd thing I noticed is that for the spell descriptions they list them all out alphabetically and not by level. In other words you have priest spells mixed with mage spells, with a level 1 potentially next to a level 9 spell.
If Overhaul does remake the game I think they should organize them by level and class (as they are in BGEE/BG2EE/IWDEE).
I think many of us would probably be more behind IWD2:EE if certain changes happen. Possible solutions:
-Fix the really painfully tedious puzzles of the Glacier and the Forest. These are game screwingly harsh on newbies. I quit several runs at the Glacier puzzle hell, and I used to play some Sierra puzzle adventure games. Still didnt find these two puzzles intuitive. Easy solutions include high intelligence characters giving tips, or just handwave the whole lightning thing. It was a cool idea, but seems hard to implement in a way that isnt sanity damaging. For the Forest, make Wilderness Lore even simpler to use for it... just say which direction maybe? I liked that the game rewards having a balanced party, perhaps make Wilderness Lore give some other mechanical bonus to survival, ie safer resting outdoors? More effective outdoor resting? As it is, this is the only reason to use Wilderness Lore, and a newbie caught without it will probably consider rage quitting.
-Make rolling stats optional. Obviously just porting the BG rolling system would make 3rd edition a bit absurd, so probably don't allow fine-tunning, which no DM I have heard of would be okay with. Make it 'Random or Point Buy' maybe? I prefer the point buy, but random 4d6 is good for 3rd too. BG finetuning and high total will be overpowered though. 3rd makes a 15 a solid score to start with, in 2nd this was a crappy score for a critical ability.
-Include even more dialogues, especially more that are class/race specific, but also include more 'hard to miss' ones. If you don't talk to a certain ghost, the game is much less enjoyable, and the story less powerful BY FAR.
-Add in some non-linear quests, nothing big, just some 'optional' areas to explore, maybe the Vale? The repopulated ruins of the Temple of the Forgotten God? Just ideas. Easy ones.
-update to 3.5 maybe, Bard, Ranger, Monk and Barbarian are greatly improved, and gnome bard encouragement is cool. Skill names are improved in a few cases.
-fix Improved Initiative? And the feat bugs. Things like Weapon Finesse not working for unarmed were g
atrociously bad for monks. Probably add some more feats, there ard a literal crapton of feats in 3.x to choose from, just add some reasonable ones in, especially for Fighters.
-offer Prestige classes? Ideally just use core rules ones, but feel free to not include hard to implement or inappropriate ones. Some others might be fine too, but no need for a huge heap of them.
don't get me wrong, D&D will ALWAYS have a special place in my heart, but once i played Earthdawn it ruined 2nd ED for me competely, thats why when 3.0/3.5 came along i loved that it fixed a lot of the dumb rules of 2nd ed IMO.
I even own the recent re-release box set of all the old D&D games that includes BG 1&2, ToEE, planescape and IWD 1 and 2, and i really only bought it to play IWD II and ToEE!!! so i bought BG EE, i liked it and just tried to get over the fact that even though i dont love THACO and the shitty weapon stats and goofy rogue//ranger skills, i did realize that for a PC game its not so bad... so just last night i bought BG 2 EE and i am LOVING IT!!!! to my surprise, (not because of beamdog, but because of 2nd ed) and let me sayt beamdog just crushed it out of the fuggin park on this one...
so PLEASE, give IWD II the same treatment, man, i can't wait...................
IWD2 didn't use the official point buy system and more of a semi-one.
Like it didn't incorporate the "14 costs 2 points, 16 cost 3, etc" it was every point was 1 point.
Planescape Torment used point buy too, for the same reason I suspect, as it allows more input on what character you are going to play.
Its really a paradigm shift, as the random roll system originally was intended to essentially tell you what you are going to be roleplaying, while point buy allow you that privilege. I am not even averse to the premise of just choosing stats either, not from an array but whatever you feel is appropriate for the character. This would require pretty mature gamers to not be abused, but with a good bunch on the same page stylewise, it can work beautifully. What DM worries about rolling stats for a villain?? If they need 16 in 4 stats to be effective at what the DM wants them to do, they are getting those stats.
@Vallmyr it didn't give a ton of points to play around with though, so you still had tough choices for weirder builds. Monks were infuriating IMHO because you had no Weapon Finesse for fists, so you couldn't run a tank-monk as well as you could in PnP, where a monk can be very effective with subpar strength but solid dexterity and wisdom.
I would prefer Planescape Torment: EE rather than Icewind Dale 2: EE.
Stats are more forgiving in 3rd ed than in 2nd, as 2nd offers so little mechanical differences until quite high or quite low. That said, min-maxing is still quite powerful, and 20 dex is much better than 13, especially early.
The biggest issue with playing IWD2 is the XP penalty for uneven non-favoured classes. You can make some characters that sound really strong, but end up nearly unplayable if you REALLY mess up.
Starting the game, saving at the initial location on the ship and then adding/removing characters to change the party composition several times before starting to play was very helpful to create a mixed-aligned party (role-playing purposes) I was happy with:
fighter/barbarian shield dwarf ended as level 14/2 with barb.rage only a choice of extra safety, shield plus large swords, flails
ranger/fighter light armor, dual-wielding from the start on, four points in concentration and four fighter levels for weapon skills ... also spent quite some points on bow/ranged skills to make him a killer with arrows next to small blades and a mace in the main hand ... messed up the caster part with low wisdom, but didn't reach high levels to cast more than level 1-2 anway
cleric of helm pure, with mace and crossbow, the old-school supporter and healer ... didn't pay much attention to his performance in melee/ranged combat
bard pure, female, the leader, focus on buffing spells and some like Grease ... I only choose this because of experience in IWDEE .. liked finding instruments, but in a different party, the bard would be a wasted slot
wizard only learnt a fraction of all the scrolls I found ... six or seven scroll cases full ... early on also a beast with high DEX and bow skill ... amazing, and once again after this 1st playthrough a sorceress is more tempting
rogue pure, tiefling, overwhelmed with skill points to spend on ... pickpocketing early on is awesome, but interest in it wears off quickly once you run into NPCs where stealing doesn't work anymore, and save'n'reload often is too cheesy in my point of view --- so, I tried to make him a versatile fighter relying on high DEX, small blades and missiles ... and, of course, the dude to disarm traps and open chests
Some more conclusions:
The fighter could have become more offensive. I was too scared and made him wear a shield in addition to heavy armor. A two-handed weapon might have been the better choice, given that those are not rare. From all the different shields I found and distributed to the fighter and cleric, eventually I forgot changing them. I had kept half a dozen different shields in the bags, but completed most of the final chapters with an unspectacular +3 shield forgetting missile attacks and the effect of any reflex/dex bonus.
The ranger ... with the help of healing from time to time no big deal in studded leather +2. Kept lots of optional equipment in the bags, including some cursed armor and weapons, but never used them. Wilderness skill was helpful in the Fell Wood, but not necessary. I draw maps and insisted on verifying paths where the ranger claimed they lead "to nowhere".
There are some chapters/dungeons where taking detailed notes is necessary. On good ol' paper! And saving the game very often not just with quicksave. Or else you can get stuck. The monastery almost made me mad ... until I revisited all my options and decided to let my priest be the only one to enter all eight test chambers.
A lot of loot to find. Much more than in IWDEE. Enough to fill the inventory of six characters, half a dozen potion cases and two bags of holding. Several times I had just bought new equipment after selling expensive arrows, bolts and darts when after the next ambush, I found a bunch of enchanted items of similar quality. Aaaah!
I'll probably play it again with a more specialized experimental party including a Monk and perhaps also a Druid. I don't like them, but this story has raised my interest in both of them.