Cheescussion

Tresset

@CrevsDaak and I were talking to each other on (what is it?) Google hangouts(?) just now and we started discussing OP things in BG and I just wanted to share the discussion we had with everyone. Forgive the lousy formatting and feel free to add to it or whatever.

Tresset: The thing about the lupine sling is it has a 15% chance of inflicting a slow disease on the target
Tresset: no save
Crevs: OP
Crevs: like the Stupifier OP
Tresset: nah
Crevs: but actually it isn't THAT op
Crevs: just OP
Tresset: its just a +2 sling
Crevs: OP
Crevs: OP
Crevs: OP
Crevs: OP
Crevs: it's +2
Crevs: that's op
Crevs: it breaks the game
Tresset: no infinite ammo
Crevs: jk
Tresset: oh
Crevs: acutally, it is a bit op
Crevs: but not much
Crevs: compared to Carsomyr and others it isnt
Crevs: the Cloak of Cheese
Crevs: the Shield of Cheese
Crevs: the Holy Acheeser
Tresset: scroll of cheese the undead?
Crevs: yep
Crevs: the Scroll of Macheese Protection
Crevs: the Scroll of Undead Procheesement
Crevs: Suncheese
Tresset: sun soulcheese
Crevs: Dorn Ill-Cheese
Tresset: hah
Crevs: 19 str, 90 total roll? not op for BG1?
Crevs: Cheesexxat
Crevs: (you can't argue that one)
Tresset: not really no
Tresset: heh
Crevs: altrough Weimer's Valen was much more OP
Crevs: vampire F/T
Tresset: I remember back when you could dual Hexxat to fighter
Crevs: OP x 100
Tresset: this was in the pre release version
Crevs: yeah
Crevs: I know
Crevs: in the release version I couldn't do that
Tresset: Cheesebringer assault
Crevs: Sarecheesebox
Tresset: Robe of Goodman Cheese and the Cheesean Circlet
Crevs: Shar-Cheese
Crevs: the Robe of Vecheesena
Tresset: heh
Crevs: the Shield of Cheesuran
Tresset: summon planetcheese
Crevs: yeah
Crevs: I avoid using Summon Planetar with mages
Crevs: it's just not right...
Crevs: not like any high level (epic level) mage can summon one of the Higher Plane's servants
Tresset: hmm
Tresset: dragon's cheesebreath
Tresset: Nahal's reckless Cheese
Tresset: Nahal's Cheesy Dowemer
Crevs: Cheesleep
Crevs: Cheesemotion
Tresset: Greater Cheesemand
Crevs: Holy Cheeseword
Crevs: PW: Cheestun
Tresset: Power word Cheesekill
Crevs: Mordacheeseken's Blade
Tresset: Cheeseprisonment
Crevs: Stupicheeser
Tresset: summon Hakecheese
Crevs: Cheeseti Figurine
Tresset: I never really use that one
Crevs: it's great for thieves
Crevs: Hexxat is baws with that shit
Tresset: hmm
Improved Cheese
Tresset: wait
Crevs: yup
Tresset: Improved Hacheese
improved alacracheese
Crevs: Improved Alachessety
Tresset: Cheese Time
Crevs: Cheestop Time
Tresset: Project Cheese
Crevs: Procheese Image
Tresset: Mischeese
Crevs: greater Cheestoration
Tresset: Sunnis chesse
Tresset: Sunnis Cheesequake
Crevs: lol
Crevs: Cheesplotion
Crevs: Potion of Cheesedom
Tresset: which one is that?
Crevs: Freedom
Crevs: pure cheese
Tresset: oh
Crevs: you can get a lot of them
Crevs: same for the Ice Dust ones
Tresset: potion of magic cheese
Crevs: Potion of Macheese Resistancheese
Crevs: double cheese 4 that 1
Tresset: hah
Crevs: Cloak of Cheesuran
Tresset: Viconicheese
Crevs: Vicheesonia
Crevs: Cheesoran (Coran)
Crevs: 20 dex, +++ on LB
Tresset: heh
Tresset: Alorcheesa
Tresset: +2 luk
Crevs: Vorpal Cheesword
Tresset: the silver one?
Crevs: yep
Tresset: hmm
Tresset: ring of cheesardry
Tresset: Thief Trapcheese
Crevs: Jon Irenucheese
Tresset: simulacheese and shadow cheesetwin
Crevs: lol
Tresset: Did you know that the ring of duplication once made 3 simulacrums for 4 rounds in the pre release version?
Crevs - Protected From Magical Weapons
Crevs: LOL
Crevs - casts Meteor Swarm: Cristopher
Crevs acknowledges he missed an h
Tresset: heh
Crevs: use /me
Tresset: dragoncheesesciple
Crevs: Sorcheeser
Tresset: Nature's Beautiful Cheese
Crevs: Chain Cheesetangency
Tresset: Cheesenergyblades
Crevs: Demilicheese
Tresset: greater whirlcheese
Tresset: yeah Demi liches...
Crevs: Cheesemite
Crevs: (smite)
Tresset: absorb cheeselife
Crevs: totally
Crevs: that;s such an op spells
Tresset: aura of Cheese despair
Crevs: aura of cheespair
Tresset: Poison cheeseweapon
Crevs: Pocheesion
Crevs: or Poicheeson
Tresset: I am so going to post this discussion on the forums!
Crevs: cooool
Crevs: I was thinking of doing something like that too
Crevs: name it
Crevs: ``Cheescussion''

wubble

I thought this would be a discussion on the merits of cheddar versus Edam. I'm disappointed.

CrevsDaak

@wubble don't need such type of discussion. We already know that brie cheese rules all (not like Tiax).

Amber_Scott

I was like, "What's this? A concussion got from cheese?"

Then I was like, "Oh, it's like a Cheese-Discussion. I like cheese, I'll stop in."

And then I saw my first assumption was correct.

@CrevsDaak Truth...except for blue cheese, which is better than brie.

elminster

have to say havarti>brie

wubble

@CrevsDaak Brie can be lovely but cheddar wins on sheer versatility. Mac and cheese, cheese on toast, ham and cheese sandwich, cheese toasty, grated cheese, cheese on a burger, apple and cheese salad, the list goes on. Plus the added bonus that it doesn't stink up your fridge or go all gooey and splodge everywhere.

mlnevese

For a moment I wondered if this would be a discussion about cheese or chess

Anyway I am surprised nobody proposed a mod to rename all the cheesy itens in the game so that they have their proper cheesy names

Amber_Scott

elminster said:

have to say havarti>brie

Ok, I'll go with blue>havarti>brie. Cheddar is sort of off to the side in its own space. It's so unique and so iconic in its many forms (as @wubble listed) that I don't think it goes on a straight cheese-ranking hierarchy. It would be like ranking red wines and then trying to decide where Maker's Mark fits in.

Swiss I put way at the bottom, like why even IS there Swiss?

CrevsDaak

wubble said:

@CrevsDaak Brie can be lovely but cheddar wins on sheer versatility. Mac and cheese, cheese on toast, ham and cheese sandwich, cheese toasty, grated cheese, cheese on a burger, apple and cheese salad, the list goes on. Plus the added bonus that it doesn't stink up your fridge or go all gooey and splodge everywhere.

I dunno. I don't like cheddar outside my hamburgers. Brie is great for eating with bread or sea biscuits. Or whatever doesn't have too much flavour.

mlnevese said:

Anyway I am surprised nobody proposed a mod to rename all the cheesy itens in the game so that they have their proper cheesy names

Nice idea, but I think that it would be too much to do now. @Tresset might want/have the time to although.

wubble

Amber_Scott said:

elminster said:

have to say havarti>brie

Ok, I'll go with blue>havarti>brie. Cheddar is sort of off to the side in its own space. It's so unique and so iconic in its many forms (as @wubble listed) that I don't think it goes on a straight cheese-ranking hierarchy. It would be like ranking red wines and then trying to decide where Maker's Mark fits in.

Swiss I put way at the bottom, like why even IS there Swiss?

If by swiss you mean emmental, I find it's like a really low quality cheddar. \It's supposed to be used for the same things but whoever made it had no taste buds so it came out tasting of nothing and feeling like rubber.

semiticgoddess

Resting is super cheesy.

Nimran

Nachos are super cheesy.

lolien

paucheese game

kcwise

Dang, after reading this topic title I was convinced I'd get an entertaining story about how someone suffered an improbable head injury as a result of a giant wheel of cheese. Instead I get this cheeseball discussion. I vote Velveeta!

JuliusBorisov

Tresset said:

@CrevsDaak and I were talking to each other on (what is it?) Google hangouts(?) just now and we started discussing OP things in BG

The Baldur's Gate community. Expanding borders. More than a forum.

Ravenslight

The popularity of calling resting cheesy, always confuses me. From a game play perspective, you are meant to rest. Especially if playing a mage. Finding a place to rest is a built in challenge. You are only allowed to rest in certain places. When you are allowed to rest you face a chance of being cut down in your sleep.

From a role-play perspective, it really makes no sense. If my party has had no sleep in 24 hours, I try to find them somewhere to rest. Whether they are out of resources, wounded, etcetera, or not.

I look forward to being enlightened as to how resting has earned such a high place of honor on the list of what is “cheesy”.

Lord_Tansheron

Ravenslight said:

I look forward to being enlightened as to how resting has earned such a high place of honor on the list of what is “cheesy”.

I'm with you. For that matter, how about an objective definition of "cheesy" to begin with.

karnor00

I don't think most people would call resting every 24 hours as cheesy. It's only cheesy when you start resting too often.

An example would be blowing all your mages spells during the first fight in Irenicus's dungeon. Then resting and once again unloading your entire arsenal on the next fight. And then resting, etc...

By the time you get out of the dungeon you may have spent several days at it. And yet somehow the fight outside is still raging... Not to mention the fact that it would be pretty hard to actually get to sleep after the first 16 or so hours of sleep...

wubble

karnor00 said:

I don't think most people would call resting every 24 hours as cheesy. It's only cheesy when you start resting too often.

An example would be blowing all your mages spells during the first fight in Irenicus's dungeon. Then resting and once again unloading your entire arsenal on the next fight. And then resting, etc...

By the time you get out of the dungeon you may have spent several days at it. And yet somehow the fight outside is still raging... Not to mention the fact that it would be pretty hard to actually get to sleep after the first 16 or so hours of sleep...

With my solo dragon discipleit took me at leaast 60 days to get out of irenicus' dungeon. I was resting until healedso it took me ages for each rest. (I rest too much anywway).

Ravenslight

I can easily see it taking several days to make your way out of Irenicus’s dungeon. Especially from a role-play perspective. For instance, if your party was trying to find some of the equipment that he stole from you. The first time I played the game I certainly spent a lot of time searching, hoping that I might find some of my treasured possessions. They have no prior knowledge of the dungeon. Just the investigation of the tubes and trying to figure out what Irenicus is up to, could take more than day. Not to mention the many foes your party must face as they try to accomplish these goals.

semiticgoddess

@Ravenslight @Lord_Tansheron: I say resting is cheesy because I played through BG2 once without resting and it was ridiculously hard. See (http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/37785/restless-run-of-baldurs-gate-2#latest). Resting makes perfect sense conceptually and the game is designed to be played with resting. I was just being silly.

REAL GAMERS PLAY WITHOUT REST

Ravenslight

Well, I can certainly see using, not resting, as a tool for making the game more of a challenge. I can see that being great fun, for some players.

I just find it hard to understand how it got to be seen by so many as cheesy in general.

BelgarathMTH

I reimagined what rest is in my head canon to address the issue. I don't think it should take 8 hours of sleep to recharge spells. I think it should take more like 15 minutes to an hour of study and meditation, in a quiet place.

That's limiting enough for a low-level mage to have to worry about running out of spells during combat if the spells are used up carelessly, and makes it more meaningful that a high-level mage (or cleric) can hold more magical energy and spells in mind before becoming too fatigued to cast.

I've also always thought Vance's idea of knowledge of mystical words and gestures disappearing out of your head after use to be somewhat ridiculous and to strain suspension of disbelief. I reimagine it as being a case of spell casting being very mentally and physically draining, where fatigue is the primary limitation to the process.

I imagine continuous spell casting to become increasingly painful, to the point that the caster could even drop unconscious or die if forced to continue channeling magical energy. Just as with physical training and exercise, with practice, i.e. levels, the caster would be able to cast more and more spells before having to stop.

My system doesn't fit the Vancian implementation in the game perfectly. For example, why is it possible to run out of Magic Missiles and then still be able to cast a Time Stop? (Vance and the game manuals explain why, but I don't like the explanation.)

For a computer game, the whole Vancian magic system is flawed anyway. If I need to, I don't object to resting to recharge spells, ignoring the game clock and imagining the time needed to be more reasonable.

That said, I don't like to over rest, either. I like to keep realistic day-night cycles, and avoid moving around in the dark, which should be impractical and dangerous.

Like most things, it's all a matter of personal playstyle and preference. I don't believe in "cheese", and I think a lot of people overuse the word trying to assert some kind of elitism over other players, as in, "Aw, I did it the hard way, and you used cheese, so I'm holier and better than thou."

semiticgoddess

@Ravenslight: The restless run wasn't great fun. It's extremely limiting, and though it was a nice challenge, it's not something I would do again, or recommend other people to do. Unless, perhaps they have a new strategy that might make the run more interesting.

Going without rest is kinda tiring.

@BelgarathMTH: The Vancian system's logic, at least more recently, is not that the spell vanishes from your memory. Instead, you cast most of the spell before rest, and just finish casting it the next day. I don't know how that exactly relates to memory, but maybe memory isn't the rationale behind it anymore. I still like the system, as it's more complicated and involved than mana systems (which I also like).

I agree that "cheese" is a problematic topic in gaming. To my knowledge, no one has ever come up with a logical definition of the term, because the word itself has no real logic or definition behind it. Usually it just refers to a tactic or trick that you view as unacceptable on whatever grounds. When I avoid using a "cheesy" tactic, it's because I want to see how to tackle the challenge without it, and learn something new, rather than because I personally oppose its use.

Lord_Tansheron

semiticgod said:

@Ravenslight @Lord_Tansheron: I say resting is cheesy because I played through BG2 once without resting and it was ridiculously hard.

I once beat the game wearing no gear whatsoever. Wearing any gear whatsoever is cheesy.

VahnXIII

"What did the cheese say to the thief?"


........



"I'm nacho cheese"


*ducks from the thrown tomatoes

Tresset

I wonder if anyone noticed the two times in our discussion that I mentioned things about the pre-release version of the game that were changed before it was ever released (things only a beta tester or developer would know about). Things used to be much more cheesy before they were rebalanced. I am kind of surprised no one has commented on those things yet.