I know with PoE so near to release, everyone is hyped about that game at the moment, but honestly, having seem the trailer for Sword Coast Legends and the first gameplay footage, I am more excited about the potential of this game!
I never played NWN, though I have seen bits of it on Let's Plays... and I don't see how SCL is a successor to NWN. In NWN you controlled one character, and sometimes a follower, and it was a first person game, which completely changes the perspective and feel of the game compared to IE games.
As far as I can tell, SCL is much closer to Baldur's Gate and other IE games than NWN. Visually it looks like something between Baldur's Gate and Diablo 3. The scenery is beautiful, but the characters and monsters look a bit cartoony for my liking, though nothing I cannot live with.
I haven't read up much on the details of the game, but if it allows players to recreate a proper AD&D tabletop experience over the internet, then it might just be the catalyst for many more video game players to access the D&D world through a simpler and more convenient medium.
@Heindrich Yeah you didn't play NWN and clearly don't understand what made it so great. Instead you only focus on superficial things, while NWN already did what you describe in your last paragraph years ago (although AD&D dead and gone). That was the core of NWN and why I think this game could be the successor.
I just woke up so this message may read unnecessarily snarky
@FinneousPJ Although I haven't played NWN, so I cannot comment on if it was "great" or not, I would argue that a shift from an isometric party-based game to a first-person game is more than a visual or superificial difference between BG and NWN, that's a pretty fundamental design change. Even if NWN achieved what I described already, SCL is (potentially) doing it in a different way, and one that I personally prefer.
Anyways it seems we're both optimistic for SCL. so no real disagreement anyway.
@FinneousPJ Although I haven't played NWN, so I cannot comment on if it was "great" or not, I would argue that a shift from an isometric party-based game to a first-person game is more than a visual or superificial difference between BG and NWN, that's a pretty fundamental design change. Even if NWN achieved what I described already, SCL is (potentially) doing it in a different way, and one that I personally prefer.
Anyways it seems we're both optimistic for SCL. so no real disagreement anyway.
@Heindrich NWN isn't a first-person perspective game. The default view is a zoomed out, isometric angle. It is 3d and the camera can be adjusted and zoomed in to the point of playing from a first-person perspective, but it doesn't have to be like that and the default isn't first-person.
I agree that NWN was very different from BG (how BG-like SCL will be remains to be seen, I'm pretty skeptical at the moment but we'll see), just wanted to clear that up about the first person thing.
For me, the only question that requires an answer, is what the solo campaign will be like. IMO, the best thing about BG is the non-linearic single player campaign. You can get lost doing sidequests for days at a time, and still find the main storyline waiting for you right where you left it. BG also feels like a living world, it's filled with people whose only purpose is to fill an empty space. And gossip ofc.
The only reason why NWN for me never got to my favourite games-list, was because it was too linear. There was virtually no sidequests. And also because you couldn't get a party. Maybe I expected too much. When I bought it, I thought it was an unofficial BG3. Being 14, oh how little I knew. It was a good game though.
@jaysl659 Oh, I did not know that. The only exposure I have had to NWN was a Let's Play by Tord, (aka "Mynameisnotlily") who incidentally is the best Let's Player I've come across. He played the entire game in first person mode, even when he controlled his Charname's familiar, he did from the familiar's first person perspective. Well I stand corrected.
And NwN2 was just as party based as BG, even if not the same.
And yeah, the big points of the NwN was how strong the toolkit was. And yes, it had a "DM mode" where a dm could actively master a session while others played it, like a tbt session (sort of). So until this game is out and I can play it myself, I'm really going to disbelieve any talk of it bring "better than NwN" in those regards. It's just a proven game experience vs empty hype at this point.
@Heindrich - as has been said already, there would appear to be a lot about NWN and NWN2 that didn't show up in that Let's Play. NWN2 in particular was very party based. You could have a full group and often did. The camera was Isometric (for most of the settings) and it was not a first person game in inception. You have just as many tactical options and combats as you find in BG, and in fact NWN was heralded as the Spiritual successor to BG, though admittedly it never really reached those heights until later in the NWN2 cycle.
Also, if you base NWN or NWN2 on their original campaigns, you are seriously missing out on the world of game play that they represent. There is a very robust and easily approachable editor in NWN such that almost anyone can set up adventures and play them with friends, or post them on the internet. As a result, there are literally Hundreds of modules that were created by enthusiastic community amateurs for NWN2, and probably thousands created for NWN. And there are dozens of Persistent world type modules that still run today for both games. It is in essence the definition of what SCL looks to be offering. In short, if you can get past the dated graphics, you should really check out NWN and NWN2. There's a whole WORLD of gaming there.
A lot of you are complaining about the single player experience of NWN, but I can tell you right now that NWN1 wasn't made to be a single player experience (at least not in the vein of the BG/IWD series), due to the presence of the Toolset.
As someone else who has played the NWN series to death with other online players, I am not impressed by how Sword Coast Legends is handling the DM aspect. As @Archaos said, the DM's power was absolute and they could do anything they wanted. ANYTHING.
They could spawn placeables, monsters, encounters, gold, equipment, visual effects, give items or take them away from the player, possess a creature and assume all of its powers, command any creature to do anything within the game's parameters (e.g. rest, heal them back to full, kill them instantly, send them to a different area, increase its specific stats [spell resistance, strength, base attack bonus], etc.) Hell, they could even spawn a portal that could take you to a different online server if you used it. They could kick and ban players as well, and even multiple DMs could be online at the same time! It was just SO ahead of its time that only now can I truly appreciate how complex and innovative the DM system in NWN is.
What we know so far of SCL is not convincing me that its version of the DM system is anywhere NEAR an improvement, let alone as complex as NWN's. And what about the Toolset for this game?
Having a Toolset will keep this game alive for at least 10 or 15 years after they stop making patches and expansions for it. NWN1 and 2 had their own scripting language so it was possible to do just about anything using the toolset, in addition to building your own campaigns, modules, areas, monsters, and equipment. If SCL does not offer a toolset with the complexity of NWN1's, I don't see it being very popular for builders - and that will significantly decrease the game's overall lifetime.
And, as you all know with the Enhanced Editions, that is not a good thing. Mods keep games alive and popular. NWN1 was unlike any other D&D game I've played because I've met people while playing that I'm still friends with to this day, and I've had all kinds of weird and wonderful experiences with it. I really hope that SCL will deliver on this particular aspect.
@Flashburn - just a few caveats, NWN was in fact intended to be BOTH a single player game AND a vehicle for multiple players to play out an adventure created by the player community. To say that it "Wasn't made to be a single player experience", it absolutely was. Just not limited to that or just the OC. That was one of it's Many strengths. I think it was an AWESOME game and I still play it on occasion.
I share your concern regarding the DM functionality in SCL. I can see why they might do something like what they are describing though. If the DM is a known quantity, giving them absolute power is fine because you know that they are going to treat you more or less fairly.
With the advent of internet play, in a pick up game you really don't know who you have as DM. They could literally use that as a tool to bully. I know that even with NWN, it was always a good idea to back up your character before going onto a strange game. I saw people who got their equipment stripped out by less than scrupulous DM entities. Still other Persistent worlds required that your character be server resident. And I saw DMs who would go in and change your name or anything else on your character without so much as a by your leave. And I "Think" that was what they were at least in concept attempting to avoid.
Granted, the appropriate solution to that is to merely not play with them again, but still.
It is my hope that the DM limitation feature is something that you can turn on and off depending on who you are playing with. We shall see.
In-case you (just as I, due to the PoE release) missed the second Twitch game-play stream from yesterday, N-Space once again released a recording on YouTube for everyone to watch.
I do have to say that it looked a bit more Diablo than Baldur's gate. Still might be worth keeping an eye on, but that didn't do anything extra for me.
My worry is that they're emphasizing multi-player so much in the way they're promoting their game, I'm afraid that the single player mode is going to wind up just being tacked on, and therefore of low quality.
Wait, no gnomes or bards to begin with? Hopefully they have the Drow sub-race so I can at least make Val'myr as my Drow Necromancer/Cleric multiclass. Still sad, though .
Double "Aww!" Welp, count me out until that's rectified.
I'm sure they'll add them eventually. Right?
Gnomes are the best race right next to Drow! Every other race is filth! ion
WAIT I GET IT! They assumed that letting players be gnomes would be too powerful since playing a gnome is like playing a diety! Ok, so they did it for balance and not because arbitrary reasons!
No but legit, I hope they eventually add everything from PnP 5th edition. I feel as though D&D is comprised of the three different awesome factors.
Character Creation/Customization Combat And Roleplay.
The Roleplay is all us so we have that down, Combat looks to go well in-game, so finally we need customization. My favorite thing about D&D 3.5/Pathfinder is if you have a character idea you can most definitely make it.
With NWN PrC mod and NWN2 Kaedrin's Prc+a few other mods it almost achieves the customization of PnP 3.5 D&D.
Then in BG we have like 800+ mods to help us achieve that! XD
Hmmm, maybe they'll make the game modable so we can add our own stuff if they don't add it?
WAIT I GET IT! They assumed that letting players be gnomes would be too powerful since playing a gnome is like playing a diety! Ok, so they did it for balance and not because arbitrary reasons!
Tell the truth. You are really @Anduin in disguise. Right?
On a (slightly) more serious note, The more I see of this game the less I think of it. I have this creeping suspicion that this is going to be the Baldur's gate Dark Alliance of this generation. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
WAIT I GET IT! They assumed that letting players be gnomes would be too powerful since playing a gnome is like playing a diety! Ok, so they did it for balance and not because arbitrary reasons!
Tell the truth. You are really @Anduin in disguise. Right?
On a (slightly) more serious note, The more I see of this game the less I think of it. I have this creeping suspicion that this is going to be the Baldur's gate Dark Alliance of this generation. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
I'm not sure =/ I might be a clone with a belt of masculinity/femininity since my gnomes are female. Also, what type of Undead is he? I'm a Lich when I can be.
Also, I've never played the Dark Alliance games I think they are Diablo-type ARPGs?
Although, I cast resurrect on various limbs that drop off... Cloning myself...
I then wait until I have around 100 walking clones, then sadistically kill myself by drowning myselves (A new word!) in marmite, thus raising myself to Lichdom...
Currently, I am 43 Living Gnomes, 24 Mummified Gnomes and 546 Liches.
...
I just don't know what to do with myselves sometimes. I hide under pubs and stuff for giggles...
Although, I cast resurrect on various limbs that drop off... Cloning myself...
I then wait until I have around 100 walking clones, then sadistically kill myself by drowning myselves (A new word!) in marmite, thus raising myself to Lichdom...
Currently, I am 43 Living Gnomes, 24 Mummified Gnomes and 546 Liches.
...
I just don't know what to do with myselves sometimes. I hide under pubs and stuff for giggles...
/blinks.
Then is it true?! Am I just a female Lich clone of you? Are these my true origins? ARE MY MEMORIES FALSE!?
Wait a second.
Technically Val'myr is the Lich and he's a Drow. Piro is just a normal gnome. Neverminds, false alarm.
Though I do often combine the characters (Gnome Lich Girls ftw!) when I can only create one character.
So maybe sometimes in certain universes I'm a clone of you and other times I'm not?
Also, I've never played the Dark Alliance games I think they are Diablo-type ARPGs?
Sort of. They (there were two games) were definitely ARPGs as opposed to CRPGs. There were a set number of playable characters, basically A wizard, a Warrior, a thief and a Cleric. You stomped through the sewers under Baldur's gate (and elsewhere??) and killed a bunch of monsters. While there was a small amount of mindless hack and slash fun to be had in the games, they were generally considered a poor man's Baldur's gate, the lowly forgotten step-nephew of a God gone mad.
And they were console games, with all that entails, from a generation when PC games were orders of magnitude more complex (The original Xbox to be exact). So limited graphics (which isn't really that big a sin) and very limited customization or rules implementation. More of a shooter than anything else.
Let's put it this way, they were intended to be Diablo for the console. The Original Diablo was a SIGNIFICANT improvement on these games and it was already a few years dated.
I remember having a lot of fun playing both Dark Alliance games with my wife on a PS2 back when they were released. I never understood all the hate they get...
@Heindrich - as has been said already, there would appear to be a lot about NWN and NWN2 that didn't show up in that Let's Play. NWN2 in particular was very party based. You could have a full group and often did. The camera was Isometric (for most of the settings) and it was not a first person game in inception. You have just as many tactical options and combats as you find in BG, and in fact NWN was heralded as the Spiritual successor to BG, though admittedly it never really reached those heights until later in the NWN2 cycle.
Also, if you base NWN or NWN2 on their original campaigns, you are seriously missing out on the world of game play that they represent. There is a very robust and easily approachable editor in NWN such that almost anyone can set up adventures and play them with friends, or post them on the internet. As a result, there are literally Hundreds of modules that were created by enthusiastic community amateurs for NWN2, and probably thousands created for NWN. And there are dozens of Persistent world type modules that still run today for both games. It is in essence the definition of what SCL looks to be offering. In short, if you can get past the dated graphics, you should really check out NWN and NWN2. There's a whole WORLD of gaming there.
It's also fair to say that even apart from fan-mades, the expansion sets and premium modules for both were what really made the two games shine. There is a 100 hours of content in each game just based on officially released stuff (and I would also highly recommend Darkness over Daggerford for NWN 1). All the long-lost premium modules are easy enough to find with a trip to the GOG forums, and both GOG editions of the games come with a boatload of content out the gate.
Comments
@Yannir - I think they mentioned a bunch of Drizzt related stuff. Could just be name-dropping.
I never played NWN, though I have seen bits of it on Let's Plays... and I don't see how SCL is a successor to NWN. In NWN you controlled one character, and sometimes a follower, and it was a first person game, which completely changes the perspective and feel of the game compared to IE games.
As far as I can tell, SCL is much closer to Baldur's Gate and other IE games than NWN. Visually it looks like something between Baldur's Gate and Diablo 3. The scenery is beautiful, but the characters and monsters look a bit cartoony for my liking, though nothing I cannot live with.
I haven't read up much on the details of the game, but if it allows players to recreate a proper AD&D tabletop experience over the internet, then it might just be the catalyst for many more video game players to access the D&D world through a simpler and more convenient medium.
I just woke up so this message may read unnecessarily snarky
Anyways it seems we're both optimistic for SCL. so no real disagreement anyway.
I agree that NWN was very different from BG (how BG-like SCL will be remains to be seen, I'm pretty skeptical at the moment but we'll see), just wanted to clear that up about the first person thing.
The only reason why NWN for me never got to my favourite games-list, was because it was too linear. There was virtually no sidequests. And also because you couldn't get a party. Maybe I expected too much. When I bought it, I thought it was an unofficial BG3. Being 14, oh how little I knew. It was a good game though.
And yeah, the big points of the NwN was how strong the toolkit was. And yes, it had a "DM mode" where a dm could actively master a session while others played it, like a tbt session (sort of). So until this game is out and I can play it myself, I'm really going to disbelieve any talk of it bring "better than NwN" in those regards. It's just a proven game experience vs empty hype at this point.
Also, if you base NWN or NWN2 on their original campaigns, you are seriously missing out on the world of game play that they represent. There is a very robust and easily approachable editor in NWN such that almost anyone can set up adventures and play them with friends, or post them on the internet. As a result, there are literally Hundreds of modules that were created by enthusiastic community amateurs for NWN2, and probably thousands created for NWN. And there are dozens of Persistent world type modules that still run today for both games. It is in essence the definition of what SCL looks to be offering. In short, if you can get past the dated graphics, you should really check out NWN and NWN2. There's a whole WORLD of gaming there.
As someone else who has played the NWN series to death with other online players, I am not impressed by how Sword Coast Legends is handling the DM aspect. As @Archaos said, the DM's power was absolute and they could do anything they wanted. ANYTHING.
They could spawn placeables, monsters, encounters, gold, equipment, visual effects, give items or take them away from the player, possess a creature and assume all of its powers, command any creature to do anything within the game's parameters (e.g. rest, heal them back to full, kill them instantly, send them to a different area, increase its specific stats [spell resistance, strength, base attack bonus], etc.) Hell, they could even spawn a portal that could take you to a different online server if you used it. They could kick and ban players as well, and even multiple DMs could be online at the same time! It was just SO ahead of its time that only now can I truly appreciate how complex and innovative the DM system in NWN is.
What we know so far of SCL is not convincing me that its version of the DM system is anywhere NEAR an improvement, let alone as complex as NWN's. And what about the Toolset for this game?
Having a Toolset will keep this game alive for at least 10 or 15 years after they stop making patches and expansions for it. NWN1 and 2 had their own scripting language so it was possible to do just about anything using the toolset, in addition to building your own campaigns, modules, areas, monsters, and equipment. If SCL does not offer a toolset with the complexity of NWN1's, I don't see it being very popular for builders - and that will significantly decrease the game's overall lifetime.
And, as you all know with the Enhanced Editions, that is not a good thing. Mods keep games alive and popular. NWN1 was unlike any other D&D game I've played because I've met people while playing that I'm still friends with to this day, and I've had all kinds of weird and wonderful experiences with it. I really hope that SCL will deliver on this particular aspect.
/fanboy rant
I share your concern regarding the DM functionality in SCL. I can see why they might do something like what they are describing though. If the DM is a known quantity, giving them absolute power is fine because you know that they are going to treat you more or less fairly.
With the advent of internet play, in a pick up game you really don't know who you have as DM. They could literally use that as a tool to bully. I know that even with NWN, it was always a good idea to back up your character before going onto a strange game. I saw people who got their equipment stripped out by less than scrupulous DM entities. Still other Persistent worlds required that your character be server resident. And I saw DMs who would go in and change your name or anything else on your character without so much as a by your leave. And I "Think" that was what they were at least in concept attempting to avoid.
Granted, the appropriate solution to that is to merely not play with them again, but still.
It is my hope that the DM limitation feature is something that you can turn on and off depending on who you are playing with. We shall see.
N-Space hosted a new Q&A last week on Twitch.Tv, can be seen here:
http://www.twitch.tv/swordcoastlegends/b/644881880
Hopefully they have the Drow sub-race so I can at least make Val'myr as my Drow Necromancer/Cleric multiclass. Still sad, though
Welp, count me out until that's rectified.
Right?
Gnomes are the best race right next to Drow! Every other race is filth!
ion
WAIT I GET IT! They assumed that letting players be gnomes would be too powerful since playing a gnome is like playing a diety! Ok, so they did it for balance and not because arbitrary reasons!
No but legit, I hope they eventually add everything from PnP 5th edition. I feel as though D&D is comprised of the three different awesome factors.
Character Creation/Customization
Combat
And Roleplay.
The Roleplay is all us so we have that down, Combat looks to go well in-game, so finally we need customization. My favorite thing about D&D 3.5/Pathfinder is if you have a character idea you can most definitely make it.
With NWN PrC mod and NWN2 Kaedrin's Prc+a few other mods it almost achieves the customization of PnP 3.5 D&D.
Then in BG we have like 800+ mods to help us achieve that! XD
Hmmm, maybe they'll make the game modable so we can add our own stuff if they don't add it?
On a (slightly) more serious note, The more I see of this game the less I think of it. I have this creeping suspicion that this is going to be the Baldur's gate Dark Alliance of this generation. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it.
I might be a clone with a belt of masculinity/femininity since my gnomes are female. Also, what type of Undead is he? I'm a Lich when I can be.
Also, I've never played the Dark Alliance games
I think they are Diablo-type ARPGs?
Although, I cast resurrect on various limbs that drop off... Cloning myself...
I then wait until I have around 100 walking clones, then sadistically kill myself by drowning myselves (A new word!) in marmite, thus raising myself to Lichdom...
Currently, I am 43 Living Gnomes, 24 Mummified Gnomes and 546 Liches.
...
I just don't know what to do with myselves sometimes. I hide under pubs and stuff for giggles...
Then is it true?! Am I just a female Lich clone of you?
Are these my true origins? ARE MY MEMORIES FALSE!?
Wait a second.
Technically Val'myr is the Lich and he's a Drow.
Piro is just a normal gnome.
Neverminds, false alarm.
Though I do often combine the characters (Gnome Lich Girls ftw!) when I can only create one character.
So maybe sometimes in certain universes I'm a clone of you and other times I'm not?
And they were console games, with all that entails, from a generation when PC games were orders of magnitude more complex (The original Xbox to be exact). So limited graphics (which isn't really that big a sin) and very limited customization or rules implementation. More of a shooter than anything else.
Let's put it this way, they were intended to be Diablo for the console. The Original Diablo was a SIGNIFICANT improvement on these games and it was already a few years dated.