I have an idea. Every problem with Combo Breaker comes from the time limit. If it's changed so that you get it after earning five badges at any point, there will be no rush and the incentives to be disruptive will disappear. You could even keep the newbie tutorial functionally the same - they'll be trying to earn their first five badges anyhow.
@Jalily I partially agree to that. It would solve some problems, that's true. But I must say, although this badge may be a fun badge only, it is also the only badge that is actually somewhat of a challenge to acquire, even more so if you've already earned the easiest badges without getting Combo Breaker.
So far I prefer the proposition to create an introductory/explanatory thread and waiting for some results on how this influences posting and interaction quality.
Um, no, I'm pretty sure Insightfuls are hard to come by and 500 is not just "a matter of time." Just because something is still a possibility does not mean you will inevitably earn it. Not even the devs have gotten that many, and they gain Insightfuls with ease. Realistically, most of us won't be here for more than a few years anyway, so even time is a significant obstacle.
On the other hand, the "challenge" of getting Combo Breaker is entirely artificial. It's either paint-by-numbers simple or nearly impossible depending on when you find out about it. Participated too early? Sucks for you, newb! Should've read about badges instead of contributing to the forum and using up your easy ones.
Let me ask you, would you be as happy about this challenge if you had to do it starting even from where you are now? It wouldn't make you act strangely or become more reluctant to participate until you had everything lined up?
May I just point out that I have about 3200 posts, and only 206 Insightfuls? I have far more likes and agrees, and Insightfuls are very hard to come by. (About 600 agrees and 1.1K Likes.)
@Shandyr Talk about judging people based on assumptions! Your posts border on personal attacks, going after my supposed character and motivations when they have no relevance to the argument at hand. If I cared about getting badges as much as you assume, I would've asked for the Beta Tester one long ago. I think almost everyone would rather have that one over Combo Breaker, even if they didn't actually get to be beta testers. But guess what? I'm fine with not having it. (If any devs are reading this, please do not give me the badge.)
My opposition to Combo Breaker as is is based on the behavior it encourages, much like why the devs refused to implement Dislike badges: Though far from everyone would troll to get them, enough would be encouraged by the existence of a reward. The same logic applies here. Most people respond to positive reinforcement. Otherwise, what's the point of having Insightfuls, Agrees, and Likes? They don't actually do anything. Why did the League of Legends community improve so much after they implemented the honor system? It's not like they had a sudden overwhelming influx of nice users. How come you didn't attack me for "judging" people when I suggested a Helpful reaction for the benefit of newbies? It's based on the same principle of rewarding behavior you want and not rewarding behavior you don't want.
As for your repeated insistence that it's all about preventing people from getting a badge, I was the one who suggested removing the time limit, remember? Why do you act as if completely disabling the badge was my only suggestion or even the only result I would be satisfied with?
The paragraph you quoted addressed Virsalus's preference for having a time limit, which you said you didn't share. Specifically, I argued that this type of challenge is not a desirable one. "Sucks for you" is exactly how many newcomers would feel once they found out they just missed it. (If you hadn't noticed, I'm not exactly a newb anymore, so I am not included in that statement.) It's understandable and not a negative character judgment at all, unlike the content of your recent posts.
As for the hardcoding, Nathan might get around it by making an "identical" custom badge without the time limit. If the names must be different, he can use "Combo Breaker!" Good enough?
For me the problem with this badge compared to others is that it kills spontaneity. In a forum, if somebody has something to say, he just posts it. And the spontaneity with newcomers is very important I think; there is no need to put some sort of pressure on them.
The combo badge, if the newcomers know about it, will kill this spontaneous posting because if they have something to say they will wait to have more things to post the same day or force themselves to post everywhere in addition to their initial post. So ok, it's just for the first 10-20 comments, but multiplied by the number of newcomers it is not constructive.
Posting should stay a spontaneous activity, not a strategically planned one to get a badge ^^
@Calawen That is merely a possible scenario. I still think it would be best if we just let them know about it and watch how it develops from there.
@LadyRhian I can see that many of your posts are appreciated and you seem to be quite active on here and constructively at that. But I can also figure that roleplaying posts are probably not too insightful in general to many. So that might explain why you have mostly likes, followed by agrees and lastly insightfuls if the majority of your posting activity consists of roleplaying.
And who said that "matter of time" meant "within a few months"? This forum hasn't been around for that long. Give it some more time. Judging from a few individual cases is not a very smart thing either in my opinion.
And who said that "matter of time" meant "within a few months"? This forum hasn't been around for that long. Give it some more time. Judging from a few individual cases is not a very smart thing either in my opinion.
IIRC, badges with higher numbers will be added later.
Most people make only a few posts, so active users like LadyRhian are the exception. The vast majority will not get anywhere near 500 posts, let alone 500 Insightfuls.
@Jalily And that vast majority probably won't even care about the badge. I don't like that you make claims as if you knew how things are going to turn out. This is all speculation and I wonder if you're even aware of that. I think the best compromise for now would be to make this whole badge thing more transparent and then give it more time and observe.
@Virsalus, you still didn't answer my question. Here it is again: "Let me ask you, would you be as happy about this challenge if you had to do it starting even from where you are now? It wouldn't make you act strangely or become more reluctant to participate until you had everything lined up?"
@Shandyr, address my post please. (The one tagging you before this one.)
@Jalily And that vast majority probably won't even care about the badge.
How do you know they wouldn't like to have the badge, but see it as so difficult that they don't actively pursue it? Kinda like how no vets are bothering with Combo Breaker now?
It's a moot point anyway, since the desirability of a badge does not affect its challenge. It's usually the other way around.
I don't like that you make claims as if you knew how things are going to turn out. This is all speculation and I wonder if you're even aware of that.
If the wording bothers you, insert "probably" and "I think" in front of my sentences. I thought that was implied? It doesn't touch the argument.
A few pages back, @Shandyr wanted to keep Troll, Spam, Dislike, etc. reactions disabled because, he said, it would cause flame wars and turn every post into a Like/Dislike poll. Is his argument invalid because he based it on claims about the uncertain future? (@Shandyr? You agreed with @Virsalus's post, so I'm really curious about what you have to say here.)
I think the best compromise for now would be to make this whole badge thing more transparent and then give it more time and observe.
Hmm... My belief is that if we keep the badge as is, not announcing it would minimize any undesirable effects (like how it is now). Let's wait for @Nathan to decide.
I dare not suggest it due to the length of time it might take to do: but... possibly giving the badge to everyone who currently has more than five badges (since adjusting the actual requirements might be more difficult, and creating a new badge would probably be more trouble than it is worth now that someone already has it) might salve the animosity around this badge, then letting newcomers earn the badge from the start by letting them know about it?
I'll be honest about my feelings regarding this badge, and they are mixed. On one hand, I agree with @Jalily and, on the other, I agree with @Virsalus and @Shandyr. So, here we go.
It would be nice if the badge was disabled and a new badge created with more possible-to-achieve requirements. This mainly applies to people who have been here longer (and it is also improbable that they would be able to get it) and already have a number of badges. For new members, it just makes it even easier to get, so I don't see a problem with that. In fact, it is probably the easiest one to avoid problems; it satisfies both parties.
I've only been here a little over a month, but have been watching for some time. I'm not a badge hunter, but had I known about the badge I would have done things differently. Instead of changing my avatar the day I joined, I would have waited until I had something to say, which was the second or third day I joined up. I got five likes (1 badge), five insighfuls (1 badge), and ten comments (1 badge) on September 17. That was three badges. I got three other badges before that on the 15th; name dropper, first comment, and photogenic. Had I known, I would probably have lined it all up to get the other badge, just for fun.
But that wouldn't be spontaneous, and I agree with @Calawen that posting shouldn't be a strategically planned event. If you've got something you think is worth saying, then you should say it, not wait around until you have multiple things to say just so you can get another badge. Now that I can't get it, I really don't care about it. I missed my opportunity, which was unfortunate. Not everyone would do the same thing, though.
In this case, the badge rewards particular efforts:
That being either saving up all your comments so you can post them on one day - which would give first comment, 10 comments, possibly give you likes/agree/insightful, possibly changing your avatar, and getting the name dropper badges.
Or, it could well encourage spamming of nonsense like single word replies, image macros, etc., in order to get the necessary badges. And let's be honest here, people are going to go for the easiest option if they know that they can get away with it. As well as changing their avatar and name-dropping.
The truth is, none of us know what will happen until it happens. Both assumptions are equally as valid, but they are both only that: assumptions.
@Shandyr, I do politely disagree with your last comment. I don't see disagree, dislike, or off-topic reactions as being an entirely negative encouragement. People can politely disagree and explain why and, in some cases, people's views can be accepted or understood. With dislike, you can find out people's dislikes and know to keep such comments away from certain places so as to ease group friction. Off-topic can be used to tell someone when they are off-topic without actually making a rant and telling them to take it somewhere else. But they all have the potential if you make an assumption about them (and I believe (I'll make an assumption here) that was the point @Jalily was trying to make) and assume that people will act immature while using those reactions - if you're almost certain that someone will act immature with one thing, then chances are very high that they will be immature with other things. I will agree on the trolling reaction, however, and that being able to select multiple reactions would be great. I would end up clicking on like, agree, and disagree for that last post of yours.
And I understand the irony in all the assumptions I've made so far, as well as being well off-topic from the original subject; delving more into a sort of philosophical study rather than a chat about which badges do what.
According to the Vanilla FAQ, these are all supposed to be hidden badges that are earned - and given as a surprise for fulfilling their requirements. When I first saw it, my first thought wasn't even about earning the badge. This particular discussion around Combo Breaker badge might not have occurred had I not made mention of it back here. Someone would have found out about it eventually, but I apologise for ever mentioning it and causing this animosity.
At this point, I think it would be best to just ignore it, leave things as they currently are (as if we didn't know about it), and possibly create some sort of introduction/welcome thread (I'd vouch for creating an introduction thread regardless, somewhere where people can come and introduce themselves before diving into the bulk of the forum; it's always nice when people feel welcomed).
But it is up to Nathan to decide, and it is up to all of us to respect his decision.
On a completely unrelated note from the Combo Breaker badge. Trent now has the Ancient Membership badge (+5 points).
How... exactly would one go about getting that badge?
@Shandyr, well I don't know that I would technically call them secret or hidden badges, some badges that are commonly known about and are fairly well documented; badges like the comments badges, for example.
Others are less known about, but I agree that things should pretty much stay are they are. The community has been operating just fine so far without the knowledge of that particular badge. It's only now that the badge has been found out that people (including myself) don't like it. If there was an easy solution, I would suggest that. But I think the easiest solution is to forget about it.
@Jalily I can't read your thoughts and only make assumptions about what is implied by your statements. But thank you for clearing it up. And to be honest, it probably would bother me. But I can't say that it would affect my posting behavior all that much. If I have something to say, I will say it. I would keep a look at the numbers and if the opportunity to get the badge did arise at some point, I would probably take it.
And in my eyes in this thread there are assumptions that say, as soon as these new members, know of the combo breaker badge they will all for sure and as a matter of fact behave in one and only one way to this.
In fact in a negative way. And this puts all of them in a negative spot.
They cannot behave differently. Their presumed behaviour is put as a fact. Where I think it is not a fact. I think, we do not know at this point.
In my eyes this is a great injustice. And I wanted to show you how this injustice feels.
Here's what I said: "My opposition to Combo Breaker as is is based on the behavior it encourages, much like why the devs refused to implement Dislike badges: Though far from everyone would troll to get them, enough would be encouraged by the existence of a reward." Bolded for emphasis.
I have to say your previous posts didn't come across someone trying to show me how injustice felt as a rhetorical device. I'm not saying that was or wasn't your intent, just how it came across to me and probably a few others. Normally, when someone does that, they add something to their post to make it clear it's satirical. Otherwise, it only looks like they're participating in the behavior they decry—especially if they don't take it back until they've been called out a few times and wait a long time to do it despite keeping up with the topic. I have seen the latter happen many times on less civil forums, and it appeared to almost everyone that the posters just had absolute contempt for each other. So if you want to do a similar thing in the future to make a point, please keep in mind that your post may be taken as personal unless you make it clear that it isn't!
I think @mlnevese and I mean the negative ones. The "Awesome" reaction would be fine too.
But the negative ones would make every single post like a poll. Like does the post get more agrees or disagrees? (more agrees would then mean post is valid. more disagrees would mean post is not valid, there could be whole wars just because of this...)
Furthermore "Troll" "Spam" and the other negative ones could be given just as a revenge...
The negative reactions have huge potential to spark flame wars, that's why I am content with the actual positive reactions we can use
Comments
So far I prefer the proposition to create an introductory/explanatory thread and waiting for some results on how this influences posting and interaction quality.
On the other hand, the "challenge" of getting Combo Breaker is entirely artificial. It's either paint-by-numbers simple or nearly impossible depending on when you find out about it. Participated too early? Sucks for you, newb! Should've read about badges instead of contributing to the forum and using up your easy ones.
Let me ask you, would you be as happy about this challenge if you had to do it starting even from where you are now? It wouldn't make you act strangely or become more reluctant to participate until you had everything lined up?
My opposition to Combo Breaker as is is based on the behavior it encourages, much like why the devs refused to implement Dislike badges: Though far from everyone would troll to get them, enough would be encouraged by the existence of a reward. The same logic applies here. Most people respond to positive reinforcement. Otherwise, what's the point of having Insightfuls, Agrees, and Likes? They don't actually do anything. Why did the League of Legends community improve so much after they implemented the honor system? It's not like they had a sudden overwhelming influx of nice users. How come you didn't attack me for "judging" people when I suggested a Helpful reaction for the benefit of newbies? It's based on the same principle of rewarding behavior you want and not rewarding behavior you don't want.
As for your repeated insistence that it's all about preventing people from getting a badge, I was the one who suggested removing the time limit, remember? Why do you act as if completely disabling the badge was my only suggestion or even the only result I would be satisfied with?
The paragraph you quoted addressed Virsalus's preference for having a time limit, which you said you didn't share. Specifically, I argued that this type of challenge is not a desirable one. "Sucks for you" is exactly how many newcomers would feel once they found out they just missed it. (If you hadn't noticed, I'm not exactly a newb anymore, so I am not included in that statement.) It's understandable and not a negative character judgment at all, unlike the content of your recent posts.
As for the hardcoding, Nathan might get around it by making an "identical" custom badge without the time limit. If the names must be different, he can use "Combo Breaker!" Good enough?
The combo badge, if the newcomers know about it, will kill this spontaneous posting because if they have something to say they will wait to have more things to post the same day or force themselves to post everywhere in addition to their initial post. So ok, it's just for the first 10-20 comments, but multiplied by the number of newcomers it is not constructive.
Posting should stay a spontaneous activity, not a strategically planned one to get a badge ^^
@LadyRhian I can see that many of your posts are appreciated and you seem to be quite active on here and constructively at that. But I can also figure that roleplaying posts are probably not too insightful in general to many. So that might explain why you have mostly likes, followed by agrees and lastly insightfuls if the majority of your posting activity consists of roleplaying.
And who said that "matter of time" meant "within a few months"? This forum hasn't been around for that long. Give it some more time. Judging from a few individual cases is not a very smart thing either in my opinion.
Most people make only a few posts, so active users like LadyRhian are the exception. The vast majority will not get anywhere near 500 posts, let alone 500 Insightfuls.
@Shandyr, address my post please. (The one tagging you before this one.) How do you know they wouldn't like to have the badge, but see it as so difficult that they don't actively pursue it? Kinda like how no vets are bothering with Combo Breaker now?
It's a moot point anyway, since the desirability of a badge does not affect its challenge. It's usually the other way around. If the wording bothers you, insert "probably" and "I think" in front of my sentences. I thought that was implied? It doesn't touch the argument.
A few pages back, @Shandyr wanted to keep Troll, Spam, Dislike, etc. reactions disabled because, he said, it would cause flame wars and turn every post into a Like/Dislike poll. Is his argument invalid because he based it on claims about the uncertain future? (@Shandyr? You agreed with @Virsalus's post, so I'm really curious about what you have to say here.) Hmm... My belief is that if we keep the badge as is, not announcing it would minimize any undesirable effects (like how it is now). Let's wait for @Nathan to decide.
I'll be honest about my feelings regarding this badge, and they are mixed. On one hand, I agree with @Jalily and, on the other, I agree with @Virsalus and @Shandyr. So, here we go.
It would be nice if the badge was disabled and a new badge created with more possible-to-achieve requirements. This mainly applies to people who have been here longer (and it is also improbable that they would be able to get it) and already have a number of badges. For new members, it just makes it even easier to get, so I don't see a problem with that. In fact, it is probably the easiest one to avoid problems; it satisfies both parties.
I've only been here a little over a month, but have been watching for some time. I'm not a badge hunter, but had I known about the badge I would have done things differently. Instead of changing my avatar the day I joined, I would have waited until I had something to say, which was the second or third day I joined up. I got five likes (1 badge), five insighfuls (1 badge), and ten comments (1 badge) on September 17. That was three badges. I got three other badges before that on the 15th; name dropper, first comment, and photogenic. Had I known, I would probably have lined it all up to get the other badge, just for fun.
But that wouldn't be spontaneous, and I agree with @Calawen that posting shouldn't be a strategically planned event. If you've got something you think is worth saying, then you should say it, not wait around until you have multiple things to say just so you can get another badge. Now that I can't get it, I really don't care about it. I missed my opportunity, which was unfortunate. Not everyone would do the same thing, though.
In this case, the badge rewards particular efforts:
That being either saving up all your comments so you can post them on one day - which would give first comment, 10 comments, possibly give you likes/agree/insightful, possibly changing your avatar, and getting the name dropper badges.
Or, it could well encourage spamming of nonsense like single word replies, image macros, etc., in order to get the necessary badges. And let's be honest here, people are going to go for the easiest option if they know that they can get away with it. As well as changing their avatar and name-dropping.
The truth is, none of us know what will happen until it happens. Both assumptions are equally as valid, but they are both only that: assumptions.
@Shandyr, I do politely disagree with your last comment. I don't see disagree, dislike, or off-topic reactions as being an entirely negative encouragement. People can politely disagree and explain why and, in some cases, people's views can be accepted or understood. With dislike, you can find out people's dislikes and know to keep such comments away from certain places so as to ease group friction. Off-topic can be used to tell someone when they are off-topic without actually making a rant and telling them to take it somewhere else. But they all have the potential if you make an assumption about them (and I believe (I'll make an assumption here) that was the point @Jalily was trying to make) and assume that people will act immature while using those reactions - if you're almost certain that someone will act immature with one thing, then chances are very high that they will be immature with other things. I will agree on the trolling reaction, however, and that being able to select multiple reactions would be great. I would end up clicking on like, agree, and disagree for that last post of yours.
And I understand the irony in all the assumptions I've made so far, as well as being well off-topic from the original subject; delving more into a sort of philosophical study rather than a chat about which badges do what.
According to the Vanilla FAQ, these are all supposed to be hidden badges that are earned - and given as a surprise for fulfilling their requirements. When I first saw it, my first thought wasn't even about earning the badge. This particular discussion around Combo Breaker badge might not have occurred had I not made mention of it back here. Someone would have found out about it eventually, but I apologise for ever mentioning it and causing this animosity.
At this point, I think it would be best to just ignore it, leave things as they currently are (as if we didn't know about it), and possibly create some sort of introduction/welcome thread (I'd vouch for creating an introduction thread regardless, somewhere where people can come and introduce themselves before diving into the bulk of the forum; it's always nice when people feel welcomed).
But it is up to Nathan to decide, and it is up to all of us to respect his decision.
On a completely unrelated note from the Combo Breaker badge. Trent now has the Ancient Membership badge (+5 points).
How... exactly would one go about getting that badge?
(They're probably fiddling around with it, seeing how it works, they might change the image, etc.)
Also, all hail our ancient overlords!
Others are less known about, but I agree that things should pretty much stay are they are. The community has been operating just fine so far without the knowledge of that particular badge. It's only now that the badge has been found out that people (including myself) don't like it. If there was an easy solution, I would suggest that. But I think the easiest solution is to forget about it.
@Shandyr, I just need to clear up two things before I drop this. Here's what I said: "My opposition to Combo Breaker as is is based on the behavior it encourages, much like why the devs refused to implement Dislike badges: Though far from everyone would troll to get them, enough would be encouraged by the existence of a reward." Bolded for emphasis.
I have to say your previous posts didn't come across someone trying to show me how injustice felt as a rhetorical device. I'm not saying that was or wasn't your intent, just how it came across to me and probably a few others. Normally, when someone does that, they add something to their post to make it clear it's satirical. Otherwise, it only looks like they're participating in the behavior they decry—especially if they don't take it back until they've been called out a few times and wait a long time to do it despite keeping up with the topic. I have seen the latter happen many times on less civil forums, and it appeared to almost everyone that the posters just had absolute contempt for each other. So if you want to do a similar thing in the future to make a point, please keep in mind that your post may be taken as personal unless you make it clear that it isn't! Nah, it's your post on page 5, although @mlnevese made a similar one without the poll part.