playing most kits is really difficult to explain in roleplaying terms. a real deep RP run would have to eschew many kits.
- you became a wizard slayer in candlekeep? ehhm no.
- dwarven defender? definitely not
- barbarian? most certainly no
- beastmaster? impossible
- avenger? avenging what?
...
Candlekeep has two fine dwarven warrior NPCs who could teach a young dwarf about his culture and its fighting styles.
And wouldn't candlekeep be the best place to learn how to be a wizardslayer? Heck, their watchmen should all be wizardslayers to protect it from evil mages. The same goes for an inquisitor. It fits candlekeep well.
The rest are good points.
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It's hard to RP a Druid or ranger in BG. This is because animals keep attacking you, forcing you to put them down. I once tried to use my Druid PC, Jaheira and Minsc to charm a pack of wild dogs that were attacking. The decision he tore each other apart. It felt horrible...
@Grum
I disagree about the Ranger. Maybe in 3e, Rangers are more "at one" with nature. But in 2e, they are more like the edge-of-civilization borderland protectors, so if anyone is going to kill animals, it will be Rangers. They would be the ones hired by the local family to help rid their farm of bear attacks or wolf/fox threats.
@Grum
I disagree about the Ranger. Maybe in 3e, Rangers are more "at one" with nature. But in 2e, they are more like the edge-of-civilization borderland protectors, so if anyone is going to kill animals, it will be Rangers. They would be the ones hired by the local family to help rid their farm of bear attacks or wolf/fox threats.
Interesting. Thank you for that. I feel much better about having my archer slaughter animals left and right.
-I like ToB. It feels epic, it makes sense and it's a fitting end. It could have been more polished and developed but it's not bad or boring by any means.
-I like Amelyssan. While my favorite BG NPC and villain is Sarevok, Amelyssan is a nice surprise.
She was there from the start before you were born probably and manipulated everything, even Bhaal himself. It also feels like you're fighting a demigod.
-ToB feels like an alpha build without Ascension. It makes you work in order to conquer or embrace your destiny. It makes it what it should have been.
-I HATE Inquisitors. They feel like some modder "optimized" the Paladin by removing all the iconic and "useless" abilities and gave them a couple overpowered abilities that steamroll the main challenge of BG2: mages.
Even in PnP, Inquisitors only get x1.5 Dispel, not 2x.
-I consider the ADnD racial restrictions for classes utterly moronic. While some would argue that it adds flavor and there's a lore-based reason for that, even the ADnD module authors considered that a stupid and bad decision. There are plenty of NPCs that break the racial restriction rules.
One example that comes to mind is an ADnD 2E Chaotic Neutral Green Elf Druidess.
-The BG games should punish or offer a challenge to those that choose to min/max the INT/WIS/CHA scores, like in Fallout and other games.
You have 3 INT? You get minimum dialogue options and you can barely talk.
3 CHA? You get no diplomatic options and you are very unlikeable.
3 WIS? You get some other effect that affects your common sense, dialogue and gameplay-wise.
-I dislike Mages. I only like them with multi/dual-classes. I find them boring, I find scroll-hunting annoying and expensive, especially when you can fail to learn a scroll and constantly changing their spellbooks to be tedious.
You never have enough spells. You always wish you had one more casting of that spell, either offensive or defensive.
If I want spell variety, I go with Cleric/Mage. If I want to be a swiss army-knife, I go with Thief/Mage.
I like gish characters (Fighter/Mages) in general, though.
Also their specializations are implemented badly. You don't get a benefit in your preferred school, you simply trade one school you don't care about for more spells.
Sorcerer is what comes to mind when I think of a mage or caster. Both their mechanics and their lore is far more interesting to me than someone that goes scroll-hunting and has to change their memorized spells all the time.
Well, on the topic of unpopular opinions, I think it would've been interesting to see how the developers would've written Imoen's death and its impact on Charname. It is noticeable that she was to be written off without any 'meta' knowledge and I do not think that her character makes much of a difference in ToB nor that her interactions with Charname are that significant. If I'd have to define her character in ToB with a single word, it'd be 'aloof'. And while the writing isn't necessarily bad, I don't think that the focus should've been put on her coping with being a Bhaalspawn, especially in the way that it was handled. The way her development is being guided by Charname seems more like a regression instead of a proper development of her story.
On the subject of Imoen, I don't like her very much. I think her the writing in of her with Bhaalspawn heritage feels out of place. When I found out she was a Bhaalspawn, just like me, I was like, "Oh, <i>purlease!</i>"
edit: HEY, what did I do wrong??? Ohoho, I forgot to press the brand new italicize button, which changes the < > to a [ ]! Hah! Be smarter than the machine, @mashedtaters...
I think her the writing in of her with Bhaalspawn heritage feels out of place. When I found out she was a Bhaalspawn, just like me, I was like, "Oh, <i>purlease!</i>"
To a certain extent, it was feasible, albeit a bit forced. She might've been a second ward of Gorion, yet I am unaware of any IG explanation as to why Gorion didn't take her along after he received that letter.
Imoen showed 0 evidence of succumbing to the bhaalspawn taint. It wasn't until throne of bhaal that she started to develop even minor powers. Even after going through the same tortuous experiments as Charname, she didn't go slayer on the party.
Gorion knew that Sarevok was after *one* bhaalspawn. Sarevok says "ward" singular. So Gorion took the child that showed the most signs of falling to the taint, deciding to protect the purer one.
Save the sweet, innocent, girl whose worst interests seem to be picking pockets and locks our of curiosity...or save the other child with 18s in all stats and who is optimized for killing everything that moves?
Yeah, take the obvious bhaalspawn with you and keep the kid safe.
Imoen showed 0 evidence of succumbing to the bhaalspawn taint. It wasn't until throne of bhaal that she started to develop even minor powers. Even after going through the same tortuous experiments as Charname, she didn't go slayer on the party.
Gorion knew that Sarevok was after *one* bhaalspawn. Sarevok says "ward" singular. So Gorion took the child that showed the most signs of falling to the taint, deciding to protect the purer one.
Save the sweet, innocent, girl whose worst interests seem to be picking pockets and locks our of curiosity...or save the other child with 18s in all stats and who is optimized for killing everything that moves?
Yeah, take the obvious bhaalspawn with you and keep the kid safe.
Plus that, "Heya! I'm Imoen!" is just so darn cute! I may not like her story, but her voice actress had it down.
In BG1 mages are really not anything special. Their number of spells today is too few and their spells aren't very powerful. Once you unload all of your magic missiles and fireballs...well, you are left plinking away with a sling.
Garrick though...
(1) His lore is always high enough to identify everything. This is an unlimited supply of identify spells. Very useful.
(2) There are enough wands to cast any spell you need. Right now I'm in Durlag's Tower bottom level with a lvl 9 Garrick. He has...119 charges of summon monster. 30 charges of paralyze, 8 charges of polymorph, 12 charges of fireball and 13 charges of wand of frost. With all of my 40k gold lying around, these can be easily replenished to last me all game.
(3) He can still cast the spells you need. Right now he has 2 castings of slow and 5 scrolls of haste. More than enough to get through hard fights. He also can cast strength. This can boost his own strength, or push Ajantis up to 18/50 (from 17, so a good bonus). It lasts 9 rounds which is more than enough.
(4) Even when not casting, he isn't worthless. He has * in axes, a +2 throwing axe, and Kiel's Buckler (giving him Dex17). That's really good enough to not be worthless in a fight.
(5) Before you get the axe and buckler, he is quite alright using The Army Scythe. I prefer the switch for the +2 AC, +1 Dex and no longer needing to buy bolts.
Sure, he isn't going to chunk people. But he doesn't have to. He is a solid support character who can do everything that you need a support character to do. Now...if he had IWD bard songs, he'd be in all of my parties. But as is, I see no need to replace him with a mage.
Sure, his stats aren't great. Str14 and Con9 sucks. But he does everything he needs to do regardless. With just a single lvl 2 spell he becomes Str18/50 Dex17 Con9. Really good enough for what is asked of him.
If I could change any NPC's class and backstory I would make Eldoth a fallen ranger (with his poison arrows intact and with adjusted proficiencies). His backstory would then be that instead be that he was a corrupt former head guard at a keep. He made a deal with Krotan (an ogre mage of considerable power) to allow Krotan access to the keeps lower dungeons. The ogre mage went on to kidnap and then perform horrible experiments on some of the residents of the keep. When the deal was discovered he was forced to flee. He's been hiding out in the cloakwood forest ever since.
If I could change any NPC's class and backstory I would make Eldoth a fallen ranger (with his poison arrows intact and with adjusted proficiencies). His backstory would then be that instead be that he was a corrupt former head guard at a keep. He made a deal with Krotan (an ogre mage of considerable power) to allow Krotan access to the keeps lower dungeons. The ogre mage went on to kidnap and then perform horrible experiments on some of the residents of the keep. When the deal was discovered he was forced to flee. He's been hiding out in the cloakwood forest ever since.
Wouldn't that make him an entirely new character? Not that I would mind, as he sounds awesome...
Yea he would be different. But I think it would be more interesting that way. He could even later propose a plan to kidnap the daughter of a grand duke once you reached Baldurs Gate. It would also make having Garrick, Skie, and Eldoth in the party make a bit more sense from a class standpoint (it always seemed like kind of an odd expectation to me to expect people to include 2 bards and a thief in their party in order to hear these banters).
An extra archer is better than a mage in BG1, from far more consistent and greater damage dealing. A small pile of dispelling arrows are all you need for those few moments of caster battles.
And a wand of Sleep for everything else, of course. Good thing that's one of those wands that any class can use.
I don't like the idea that certain kits have very, very, specific flavor attached to them that some people treat as gospel. For example:
- Barbarians come from a barbaric Northern tribe (What, you can't have a character who just gets angrier than others coming from Candlekeep?)
- Wizard Slayers hate hate hate spellcasters with no exception. (What if you're just a guy who has studied how to disrupt spellcasting because you know how dangerous wizards are?)
- Berserker rage is always frothing-at-the-mouth fury. (I much prefer the tranquil fury trope myself.)
@Tad_Has_A_Cold_Olive I agree with the sentiment of your post, and especially like your latter two examples, but I feel the Barbarian class has a strong cultural emphasis as well, which wouldn't be reflected or experienced in Candlekeep. Nomadic steppe tribes are a non-Northern example, but I think it's a stretch to RP a Candlekeep-raised barbarian.
An unpopular opinion is having a Mage with 18 STR which becomes 19 in BG1. Another unpopular opinion is having a high WIS for that same mage. I find it useful to have a Mage with a high STR, DEX, INT, WIS as well as 15 CON (later becoming 16). I wouldn't knock back those stats.
Any class can use it. The only restriction on it is (like any wand) your intelligence has to be 9 or greater.
Any class except wizard slayer, that is... They can't use it.
There's reasons I never quite get around to a serious Wizard Slayer run. It just feels like a drag.
Agreed. If wizard slayers were like dwarven defenders are we're stuck with **** then I'd give one a try. But the restrictions for them are just too much. Which is a shame as thematically they are really cool.
I'm doing a wizard slayer run right now. It's a blast. The kit was buffed in the 2.0 patch to get a 25% chance to miscast magic on hit. Which is pretty damn powerful if you're dual wielding, or using a bow. I just finished Cloakwood mines and CHARNAME is a one man army (literally, there is no need for other party members after getting the boots of speed).
On topic:
Wizard slayers could use some more love.
I sort of wish there was an item that only wizard slayers could use. It would be most refreshing to see an item description that read "Only usable by: WIZARD SLAYER".
I'm doing a wizard slayer run right now. It's a blast. The kit was buffed in the 2.0 patch to get a 25% chance to miscast magic on hit. Which is pretty damn powerful if you're dual wielding, or using a bow. I just finished Cloakwood mines and CHARNAME is a one man army (literally, there is no need for other party members after getting the boots of speed).
On topic:
Wizard slayers could use some more love.
I sort of wish there was an item that only wizard slayers could use. It would be most refreshing to see an item description that read "Only usable by: WIZARD SLAYER".
Btw in icewind dale wizard slayers can wear elven sewn gloves and cloaks. It's only a few % of cold resistance, but it feels good to have something in those slots.
Comments
Candlekeep has two fine dwarven warrior NPCs who could teach a young dwarf about his culture and its fighting styles.
And wouldn't candlekeep be the best place to learn how to be a wizardslayer? Heck, their watchmen should all be wizardslayers to protect it from evil mages. The same goes for an inquisitor. It fits candlekeep well.
The rest are good points.
----
It's hard to RP a Druid or ranger in BG. This is because animals keep attacking you, forcing you to put them down. I once tried to use my Druid PC, Jaheira and Minsc to charm a pack of wild dogs that were attacking. The decision he tore each other apart. It felt horrible...
I disagree about the Ranger. Maybe in 3e, Rangers are more "at one" with nature. But in 2e, they are more like the edge-of-civilization borderland protectors, so if anyone is going to kill animals, it will be Rangers. They would be the ones hired by the local family to help rid their farm of bear attacks or wolf/fox threats.
Interesting. Thank you for that. I feel much better about having my archer slaughter animals left and right.
-I like Amelyssan. While my favorite BG NPC and villain is Sarevok, Amelyssan is a nice surprise.
She was there from the start before you were born probably and manipulated everything, even Bhaal himself. It also feels like you're fighting a demigod.
-ToB feels like an alpha build without Ascension. It makes you work in order to conquer or embrace your destiny. It makes it what it should have been.
-I HATE Inquisitors. They feel like some modder "optimized" the Paladin by removing all the iconic and "useless" abilities and gave them a couple overpowered abilities that steamroll the main challenge of BG2: mages.
Even in PnP, Inquisitors only get x1.5 Dispel, not 2x.
-I consider the ADnD racial restrictions for classes utterly moronic. While some would argue that it adds flavor and there's a lore-based reason for that, even the ADnD module authors considered that a stupid and bad decision. There are plenty of NPCs that break the racial restriction rules.
One example that comes to mind is an ADnD 2E Chaotic Neutral Green Elf Druidess.
-The BG games should punish or offer a challenge to those that choose to min/max the INT/WIS/CHA scores, like in Fallout and other games.
You have 3 INT? You get minimum dialogue options and you can barely talk.
3 CHA? You get no diplomatic options and you are very unlikeable.
3 WIS? You get some other effect that affects your common sense, dialogue and gameplay-wise.
-I dislike Mages. I only like them with multi/dual-classes. I find them boring, I find scroll-hunting annoying and expensive, especially when you can fail to learn a scroll and constantly changing their spellbooks to be tedious.
You never have enough spells. You always wish you had one more casting of that spell, either offensive or defensive.
If I want spell variety, I go with Cleric/Mage. If I want to be a swiss army-knife, I go with Thief/Mage.
I like gish characters (Fighter/Mages) in general, though.
Also their specializations are implemented badly. You don't get a benefit in your preferred school, you simply trade one school you don't care about for more spells.
Sorcerer is what comes to mind when I think of a mage or caster. Both their mechanics and their lore is far more interesting to me than someone that goes scroll-hunting and has to change their memorized spells all the time.
edit: HEY, what did I do wrong??? Ohoho, I forgot to press the brand new italicize button, which changes the < > to a [ ]! Hah! Be smarter than the machine, @mashedtaters...
Please tell me you're joking.
But it makes sense. It really does!
Imoen showed 0 evidence of succumbing to the bhaalspawn taint. It wasn't until throne of bhaal that she started to develop even minor powers. Even after going through the same tortuous experiments as Charname, she didn't go slayer on the party.
Gorion knew that Sarevok was after *one* bhaalspawn. Sarevok says "ward" singular. So Gorion took the child that showed the most signs of falling to the taint, deciding to protect the purer one.
Save the sweet, innocent, girl whose worst interests seem to be picking pockets and locks our of curiosity...or save the other child with 18s in all stats and who is optimized for killing everything that moves?
Yeah, take the obvious bhaalspawn with you and keep the kid safe.
Plus that, "Heya! I'm Imoen!" is just so darn cute! I may not like her story, but her voice actress had it down.
I like Garrick!
In BG1 mages are really not anything special. Their number of spells today is too few and their spells aren't very powerful. Once you unload all of your magic missiles and fireballs...well, you are left plinking away with a sling.
Garrick though...
(1) His lore is always high enough to identify everything. This is an unlimited supply of identify spells. Very useful.
(2) There are enough wands to cast any spell you need. Right now I'm in Durlag's Tower bottom level with a lvl 9 Garrick. He has...119 charges of summon monster. 30 charges of paralyze, 8 charges of polymorph, 12 charges of fireball and 13 charges of wand of frost. With all of my 40k gold lying around, these can be easily replenished to last me all game.
(3) He can still cast the spells you need. Right now he has 2 castings of slow and 5 scrolls of haste. More than enough to get through hard fights. He also can cast strength. This can boost his own strength, or push Ajantis up to 18/50 (from 17, so a good bonus). It lasts 9 rounds which is more than enough.
(4) Even when not casting, he isn't worthless. He has * in axes, a +2 throwing axe, and Kiel's Buckler (giving him Dex17). That's really good enough to not be worthless in a fight.
(5) Before you get the axe and buckler, he is quite alright using The Army Scythe. I prefer the switch for the +2 AC, +1 Dex and no longer needing to buy bolts.
Sure, he isn't going to chunk people. But he doesn't have to. He is a solid support character who can do everything that you need a support character to do. Now...if he had IWD bard songs, he'd be in all of my parties. But as is, I see no need to replace him with a mage.
Sure, his stats aren't great. Str14 and Con9 sucks. But he does everything he needs to do regardless. With just a single lvl 2 spell he becomes Str18/50 Dex17 Con9. Really good enough for what is asked of him.
Wouldn't that make him an entirely new character? Not that I would mind, as he sounds awesome...
And a wand of Sleep for everything else, of course. Good thing that's one of those wands that any class can use.
- Barbarians come from a barbaric Northern tribe (What, you can't have a character who just gets angrier than others coming from Candlekeep?)
- Wizard Slayers hate hate hate spellcasters with no exception. (What if you're just a guy who has studied how to disrupt spellcasting because you know how dangerous wizards are?)
- Berserker rage is always frothing-at-the-mouth fury. (I much prefer the tranquil fury trope myself.)
And so on, and so forth.
Any class except wizard slayer, that is... They can't use it.
There's reasons I never quite get around to a serious Wizard Slayer run. It just feels like a drag.
Agreed. If wizard slayers were like dwarven defenders are we're stuck with **** then I'd give one a try. But the restrictions for them are just too much. Which is a shame as thematically they are really cool.
On topic:
Wizard slayers could use some more love.
I sort of wish there was an item that only wizard slayers could use. It would be most refreshing to see an item description that read "Only usable by: WIZARD SLAYER".
Btw in icewind dale wizard slayers can wear elven sewn gloves and cloaks. It's only a few % of cold resistance, but it feels good to have something in those slots.