Community Opinions: How would you rate certain Dual Classed Kits?
Noloir
Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 380
Hi Community,
Lately on top of attempting to complete my first no-reload run I've been experimenting with various kits particularly those from the thief class. Among Shadow Dancer, Assassin, Swashbuckler, and Bounty Hunter which offers the best versatility and sustainability when crossed with Figher on a scale of 1-10 or A+ thru F- rating?
Lately on top of attempting to complete my first no-reload run I've been experimenting with various kits particularly those from the thief class. Among Shadow Dancer, Assassin, Swashbuckler, and Bounty Hunter which offers the best versatility and sustainability when crossed with Figher on a scale of 1-10 or A+ thru F- rating?
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Alternately, you could skip BG and start from Irenicus' prison in SoA. Create a thief kit and then switch over right away to Fighter. You'll be a crappy fighter at that point, but Imoen, Minsc and Yoshimo can help you get experience.
I presume that you want the thief kit for it's combat ability, and will rely on NPCs to deal with traps and locks? All kits except swashbuckler get fewer skill points per level to put into basic thief skills. Swashbucklers get normal skill point amounts, but cannot backstab. How important is backstabbing to you?
Be aware that thieves dualed over to fighters cannot have more than 2 pips in any given weapon specialization initially (being only level 1), and cannot use thief skills while wearing heavier armors.
Just for informational purposes, I went to SoA and rolled up a human bounty hunter, and dualed him over immediately to fighter. I was able to get 100 in both set traps and detect illusion before dualing. Needless to say, he was never going to be able to hide in shadows/move silently/backstab well.
Swashbuckler to fighter is little different from a Fighter/Thief. You're just creating a character with thief skills and combat ability. It's good, but doesn't hold a large or particularly interesting advantage over another kit.
Assassin is an excellent anti-mage character, and fighter levels will help it apply poison more reliably and to more enemies.
Shadowdancer is probably ideal for a no-reload. @Grum has pointed out a trick that allows a Shadowdancer to effectively maintain permanent invisibility while backstabbing. You hide in shadows, click Detect Traps or another button, wait 6 seconds, and then backstab before returning to stealth. Clicking Detect Traps refreshes the timer on backstabbing, and if you wait 6 seconds, you can hide immediately after backstabbing.
The first option, to start as a thief and then dual to a fighter, is weak. You get some minor thieving skills at the loss of a warrior's HPs, which is not a good tradeoff. Only a Swashbuckler to level 10 and then fighter would make sense - you get some AC and hit/damage bonuses which accentuate your fighting skills later, but no backstab. Assassin and Bounty Hunter offer very little for this.
The second option, starting as a fighter and then dualling to a thief, is very strong, almost irrespective of kit combination. You would dual at 9 (practical) or 13 (painful but ultimately stronger). In this combination, you could start as a vanilla fighter or a kit (even wizard slayer) - all have great synergies later and you're probably well aware of the powers of a kensai-thief or berserker-thief.
For thief kit once you dual, all are good though I'm more partial to swashbuckler or assassin than bounty hunter. A swashie would give you fantastic melee skills and an assassin would eventually be a godly backstabber when combined with the fighter levels.
You can also be extra cheesy and use kits from both classes with a bit of skadowkeeper magic after you dual and get your levels back. A kensai-assassin or even kensai-swashbuckler would have some hideous damage outputs, while a berserker-assassin or berserker-swashbuckler would give you excellent immunities to complement your fighting skills.
One could easily cheese with the Hide in Plain Sight from the Shadow Dancer kit as well, making it ideal for soloing
Swashbuckler is not that interesting if you plan to dual-class, it's not really more interesting than a multi F/T
And I totally agree with @semiticgod on the Bounty Hunter.
Very late game ToB, you can apply Poison Weapon or Called Shot to the Scorcher Ammunition or Frag Grenades, which also have area effects.
Bountyhunter: As stated above, the best bounty hunter trap isnt available till much later. In a no reload run, you would want your set trap skill high enough so they don't blow up in your face, therefore, you would have to gimp some other skill. It is probably the least recommended to dual away from.
Swashbuckler: Is good to dual away from if you are going cleric as it serves as a poor man's fighter. Dualing to fighter however takes away one it's better benefits and you are left with +2 AC and +1 hit and damaged once dualed. Nothing to write home about, but you do get full skill distribution, but no backstab.
Shadowdancer: Is good because it gives you a get out of trouble free card with hide in plain sight and if that fails, Shadow Step. You trade damage and skill points over the assassin, however, if it is your first no-reload, it maybe your best option.
You might consider a fighter/thief multi; you can't get either a fighter or thief kit, but you can be pretty much any race. The obvious trade-off is slower level progression.
If you are going to use a mod of some sort to get around class/race/kit restrictions, then all bets are off. I haven't done any such thing, so can offer no experience-based advice, only speculations.
I would vote for either assassin or shadowdancer. Swashbuckler loses too much when losing backstab.
Shadowdancers get most of their bonuses by level 10 or so, whereas assassins only increase their backstab multiplier beyond x5 at levels 17 and 21. They do get poison weapon, which is a fantastically powerful ability though.
If I understand correctly, the formula for backstab damage is the following:
( Multiplier * (Weapon base damage) ) + strength bonus damage + proficiency bonus damage + weapon enchantment bonus damage
Is that correct?
It is:
(Backstab multiplier x (Base damage + Proficiency bonus + item bonus, bard song etc) + Strength bonus) x critical hit + additional weapon damage
power: A+++ (kicks major ass...)
versatility: A (...in melee and at a distance and while both hidden and in sight)
sustainability: B- (no shorty saves, no heavy armor, mediocre hp, can burn through skill uses; habitually hides which increases his survivability)
convenience: D (better dualled at a fairly high level, so it's a hassle)
\overall: A-
~ shadowdancer > fighter ~
power: A
versatility: C (generally a one trick pony)
sustainability: A+ (definitely a survivor)
convenience: C (best dualled at a moderately high level)
\overall: B+
~ swashbuckler > fighter ~
power: B
versatility: D+ (swings and shoots and has a nice amount of skill points)
sustainability: C (no shorty saves, lower hp and doesn't hide; wears heavy armor)
convenience: B+ (best dualled at a relatively low level, little hassle)
\overall: C+
~ bounty hunter > fighter ~
power: B+
versatility: D (swings and shoots and sets a nice trap here and there)
sustainability: C
convenience: C
\overall: C-
and for reference:
~ shorty pure vanilla fighter ~
power: B
versatility: D- (swings and shoots yay)
sustainability: A (good HP, AC and saves)
convenience: A+ (no hassle, stays your trusty meatshield throughout)
\overall: B+
Power: Rank S (mislead, backstab, tensers, poison, 10 attacks per round in spider form)
Versatility: Rank A ( you really only need find traps, you have knock and invis to cover the thief abilities)
Sustainability: Rank S (if you have 18 wis, wish and limited wish can keep you going quite a while)
Convenience: Rank S (Relies on some prep, but easily the best damage dealer, hard to kill. Only downside is it is activated power, most of the time you hand out in the back shooting. When things need to die its Minor sequencer (strength/shock grasp), polymorph self,improved haste, tensers transform, activate spider form, activate minor sequencer, activate poison. Which kills anything you just so happen to attack in a matter of seconds).
If you're going for a fighter/thief character i'd probably go wizslayer dualed to thief or kensai. The UAI from thief gets past their normal class restrictions. A dual over at 7/9/13 would work well, thieves level fast enough you aren't exactly gimped very long.
A small quibble...
Shadowdancer > Fighter ~
Power: A+ (If you time your hiding right, you can remain invisible without ever being seen. Backstab with fighter levels and repeat until the enemy is dead. If you ever mess up, use your shadowdancer ability to jump into the plane of shadow and hide)
Versatility: A (Can go toe to toe with the enemy and get out when the going gets bad. When fighting mages, can use HiPS to interrupt spells. Can backstab, scout, kite and hack away)
Sustainability: A+ (definatley a survivor)
Convenience: C- (I dualed at lvl 13 for full backstab, which I feel is needed. So it wasn't until lvl 14 that I got the shadow dancer levels back. That was a real pain in the arse to get that much experience)
Overall: A
Getting the XP back was pretty hard. But this is a character who is useful throughout the saga. He can clear entire areas completely by himself. Heck, for much of the saga I found that having a party was a liability. But by the time you reach ToB, many enemies see through invisibility (even if you have the much needed cloak that should stop that) or are immune to backstabs. But by then you have so many fighter levels that you can fight them face to face and use your shadow dancer abilities to make a get away if you get in trouble. So Charname still stays relevant.
Shadowdancer Fighters are great at both their roles. I've never played such an overpowered character before.
Minuses:
- low HP
- reliance on thief weapons for backstab
- long dual class cycle
- vulnerable to enemies that see invisibility
- time consuming to maximise usefulness
- primary ability is replicable with items
Overall it is a combination that suits a solo style of play but can't solo against specific enemies and therefore I simply can't see it as a combination that can receive anything better than a B+/-.
Plenty of combinations are much more powerful.
If your enemy can see through invisibility, the backstab doesn't come into play. If your enemy can't, you don't really need the extra backstab damage, since you can always escape and try again. An enemy that can't see you is already doomed; a higher backstab just makes the fight slightly quicker.