To elaborate a bit on this. At least for 3E, not sure about 2E but it's probably the same: You cannot resurrect people that don't want to come back. The soul must be willing to return.
Gorion was old. He lived a good life and raised Charname as best as he could (probably?). Why would he want to return? So he can hold Charname back and make both of them targets again? Besides, there are better people out there who can guide him (Elminster).
As for Khalid, he was always a coward. Why would he want to return? So Jaheira can babysit him some more? The adventuring life wasn't for him and he probably knew it and showed it. Let's not forget, that him being Neutral Good, he most likely ended in a NG plane like Elysium, where he found peace and he can relax, perhaps reuniting with loved ones.
Same with Gorion. Returning to his old and tired body in hostile times or enjoy eternity in Celestia (Lawful Good)?
Gorion makes sense, but Khalid... I dunno. I think that depends a lot on how you interpret his character. For example, I don't find him cowardly. He was still young and fit--15/16/17 in STR/DEX/CON is nothing to sneeze at!--and he still had a whole future to share with his wife, who obviously cares for him deeply. He might stay, or he might not, but either way, I think he'd be a little more hesitant than that.
I guess to keep on-topic, one thing that's always bothered me about Baldur's Gate is:
24. The resurrection mechanic is stupid! Its inconsistent, opens SO many plotholes, and belittles the emotional impact of death. Khalid and Gorion's deaths are two pretty big examples, but others include...
"Oh hey, I can recruit Neera--oh. She died. Well, I guess I could take her to the temple to resurrect her, right?"
"Oh crap, we just killed Ajantis and got framed for it! Well, no biggie, we've got plenty of gold; let's just carry his body to the nearest temple and we'll explain everything there after he's brought back."
"Oh, Yoshimo died too! Well that's okay, I'll just bring him back to life and he'll be free of his geas and we can be buddies again."
"Wait, what? What do you mean I can't!?"
I get that it's important, game-play wise, but in regards to story-telling, it's a writer's worst nightmare.
24. That Nalia starting as Thief, then turning Mage later in her career doesn't fit in well with her rebellious nature that would match Mage dualed to Thief much more plausible in my opinion (though it would be less useful as a class).
24. That Nalia starting as Thief, then turning Mage later in her career doesn't fit in well with her rebellious nature that would match Mage dualed to Thief much more plausible in my opinion (though it would be less useful as a class).
In Amn, wouldn't magecraft be even more rebellious, though?
To elaborate a bit on this. At least for 3E, not sure about 2E but it's probably the same: You cannot resurrect people that don't want to come back. The soul must be willing to return.
Gorion was old. He lived a good life and raised Charname as best as he could (probably?). Why would he want to return? So he can hold Charname back and make both of them targets again? Besides, there are better people out there who can guide him (Elminster).
As for Khalid, he was always a coward. Why would he want to return? So Jaheira can babysit him some more? The adventuring life wasn't for him and he probably knew it and showed it. Let's not forget, that him being Neutral Good, he most likely ended in a NG plane like Elysium, where he found peace and he can relax, perhaps reuniting with loved ones.
Same with Gorion. Returning to his old and tired body in hostile times or enjoy eternity in Celestia (Lawful Good)?
I have to disagree, I think both Gorion and Khalid have plenty of reason to return.
*Maybe* Gorion pulled an Obi Wan Kenobi on Charname, but he loved them and wanted to protect them at all cost. Khalid too loved his wife dearly and he wasn't that much of a coward that it would make him simply give up on life. In fact, I bet Jaheira gave him a very good reason to stay alive in the first place. Also, unlike her he wasn't a druid and didn't share all her believes, so I am assuming that he doesn't worship the circle of life as much.
Both left alone a loved one who will deeply grieve for them (well, ok, Charname not necessarily, depending on how you play) and as Jaheira states in Khalid's case, he can't be brought back because both his body and soul have been violated to a degree where no spell could bring him back.
Your party members can too be killed in regular gameplay without being able to be brought back, for example when they get petrified and then killed or if they explode into tiny meaty chunks from overkill.
Given that Gorion was an old man and wizard and that Sarevok is a bloody deathmachine, I am going to assume that Sarevok's attack simply was an overkill, meaning Gorion's body was beyond repair.
Either way, it never bothered me that you can't bring them back, given the above stated rule of "point of no return".
Ultimately it's an awkward compromise between having a world where bringing people back from the dead is somewhat trivial and keeping death as the powerful dramatic device it is.
I don't know, I think it works well enough. Better than some other games where you get literally no explanation for why you can bring a character under gameplay circumstances but not under story ones *cough*FINALFANTASY7*cough cough*
Ultimately it's an awkward compromise between having a world where bringing people back from the dead is somewhat trivial and keeping death as the powerful dramatic device it is.
In 2nd Edition P&P, there was a "system shock" saving throw to determine if you even survived the revival attempt (failure meant you was dead for real-real) and then you permanently lost a point of Constitution upon successful resurrection.
I don't know, I think it works well enough. Better than some other games where you get literally no explanation for why you can bring a character under gameplay circumstances but not under story ones *cough*FINALFANTASY7*cough cough*
Final Fantasy 7 is ANOTHER case of stupid resurrection mechanics screwing with the storytelling.
As for Khalid, he was always a coward. Why would he want to return? So Jaheira can babysit him some more? The adventuring life wasn't for him and he probably knew it and showed it. Let's not forget, that him being Neutral Good, he most likely ended in a NG plane like Elysium, where he found peace and he can relax, perhaps reuniting with loved ones.
Same with Gorion. Returning to his old and tired body in hostile times or enjoy eternity in Celestia (Lawful Good)?
Idk, maybe because Jaheira LOVED him and he LOVED her? I can't speak for you, but if I could return to the woman I loved, even if it meant living a life I hated, I'd do it in a heartbeat.
I don't know, I think it works well enough. Better than some other games where you get literally no explanation for why you can bring a character under gameplay circumstances but not under story ones *cough*FINALFANTASY7*cough cough*
@Buttercheese This has always been a BIG MISCONCEPTIONS about final fantasy games. Just to put it bluntly, you don't die mechanically in the ff, you get ko'd aka knocked out. Pheonix down doesn't revive the dead, it just restores consciousness; same with the revive spells which in themselves which by their very definition of the word is "restore to life or conscious." Death doesn't happen mechanically until the entire party is wiped out whixh then it is implied.
So ff has no explanation, because it doesn't do that, just like with pokemon. You don't kill the pokemon, you ko it, but people are just infatuated with killing shit.
Yes casting from a scroll is uninterruptable. Sequencers also are uninterruptable.
It's still cheating as Bassilus and Mulahey have none and still are impossible to stop from casting Hold Person most of the time. .
That it only happens intermittently is further evidence that this is a bug. Interestingly it often happens with hold spells. I consider this a valid time to reload, even on a non-reload game.
What irked me a bit is that the most important mages in Baldur's Gate 1, the most outspoken and feared, are really one trick lightning bolt horror ponies.
Then you get into Baldur's Gate 2, and the first "thug mage" will start combo wombo 8 level spells on your arse! And good thing Athkatla is a pretty strict place with magic, if it weren't, things would be nasty!
It dosen't bother me that Gorion can't be bought back. What is far more annoying, IMO, is how useless he is in that fight in the first place.
Big bloke in armour bearing down and he uses acid arrow?
Where's he's contingency? No summons? No spell trigger? No haste? Ect.................
And then a ridiculously anti climatic letter and reveal about who you really are.
The letter and reveal and how it's handled is probably the most jarring, immersion breaking part of the game. It's a big deal, a huge deal and it's presented as a letter which, by that point after all the other scrolls/letters you have read, you skim read initially. And then carry on exactly as you were.
@UnderstandMouseMagic: For what it's worth, contingencies and triggers didn't exist in BG1, and the devs probably figured some flashy damage spells would make for a cooler-looking fight than summoning some hasted goblins.
I just wish that Gorion cast invisibility on charname and said run. It'd have made more sense. Heck even make it his contingency spell, showing how his child is the most important thing to him.
When you emerge from the Underdark and the elves are so prissy.
I've just fought my way through an Illythid city, a Beholder lair, Fish people (various) and wiped out the drow city that was causing you so much bother. And you have been doing what exactly? Looking for a lamp..........................???
You find yourself thinking "the Drow have got a point" And they are so rude, so dismissive of Viconia,
"HOW DARE THEY"
NO, NO, NO YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PUT A GEAS ON VICONIA.
Every time, I can't believe the game allows that to happen with no allowed reaction from Charname.
Really don't like them, really don't want to save their precious tree houses. If this is how you normally behave, if it weren't for the whole "soul" thing, Irenicus would have an ally.
When you emerge from the Underdark and the elves are so prissy.
I've just fought my way through an Illythid city, a Beholder lair, Fish people (various) and wiped out the drow city that was causing you so much bother. And you have been doing what exactly? Looking for a lamp..........................???
You find yourself thinking "the Drow have got a point" And they are so rude, so dismissive of Viconia,
"HOW DARE THEY"
NO, NO, NO YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PUT A GEAS ON VICONIA.
Every time, I can't believe the game allows that to happen with no allowed reaction from Charname.
Really don't like them, really don't want to save their precious tree houses. If this is how you normally behave, if it weren't for the whole "soul" thing, Irenicus would have an ally.
They are more than a bit anachronistic to boot, even for the fantasy setting. Athkatla has some pretty nice sewers, too. Even Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles would think of them as excessive.
The difference in how the game handles the NPCs' experience (and thus proficiencies and skills) in BG1, BG2 and ToB when you approach them. The ToB style NPCs seem to be the most convenient for the player, so that he shouldn't bother with getting NPCs as early as possible to distribute their proficiencies. The choices the game makes for NPCs in BG1 and BG2 - they always bothered me.
Ok. Let's imagine we were all playing d&d, Mulhay is just the conclusion to that chapter. Mulhay is the final boss to the first chapter of BG. Teenage mutant ninja turtles RPG grade 8 - that's what I was just thinking!
Comments
(of the nashkel mines)
I guess to keep on-topic, one thing that's always bothered me about Baldur's Gate is:
24. The resurrection mechanic is stupid! Its inconsistent, opens SO many plotholes, and belittles the emotional impact of death. Khalid and Gorion's deaths are two pretty big examples, but others include...
"Oh hey, I can recruit Neera--oh. She died. Well, I guess I could take her to the temple to resurrect her, right?"
"Oh crap, we just killed Ajantis and got framed for it! Well, no biggie, we've got plenty of gold; let's just carry his body to the nearest temple and we'll explain everything there after he's brought back."
"Wait, what? What do you mean I can't!?"
I get that it's important, game-play wise, but in regards to story-telling, it's a writer's worst nightmare.
And Jaheira's romance!
*Maybe* Gorion pulled an Obi Wan Kenobi on Charname, but he loved them and wanted to protect them at all cost. Khalid too loved his wife dearly and he wasn't that much of a coward that it would make him simply give up on life. In fact, I bet Jaheira gave him a very good reason to stay alive in the first place. Also, unlike her he wasn't a druid and didn't share all her believes, so I am assuming that he doesn't worship the circle of life as much.
Both left alone a loved one who will deeply grieve for them (well, ok, Charname not necessarily, depending on how you play) and as Jaheira states in Khalid's case, he can't be brought back because both his body and soul have been violated to a degree where no spell could bring him back.
Your party members can too be killed in regular gameplay without being able to be brought back, for example when they get petrified and then killed or if they explode into tiny meaty chunks from overkill.
Given that Gorion was an old man and wizard and that Sarevok is a bloody deathmachine, I am going to assume that Sarevok's attack simply was an overkill, meaning Gorion's body was beyond repair.
Either way, it never bothered me that you can't bring them back, given the above stated rule of "point of no return".
Hopefully the remake will fix this.
@Buttercheese
This has always been a BIG MISCONCEPTIONS about final fantasy games. Just to put it bluntly, you don't die mechanically in the ff, you get ko'd aka knocked out. Pheonix down doesn't revive the dead, it just restores consciousness; same with the revive spells which in themselves which by their very definition of the word is "restore to life or conscious." Death doesn't happen mechanically until the entire party is wiped out whixh then it is implied.
So ff has no explanation, because it doesn't do that, just like with pokemon. You don't kill the pokemon, you ko it, but people are just infatuated with killing shit.
Then you get into Baldur's Gate 2, and the first "thug mage" will start combo wombo 8 level spells on your arse! And good thing Athkatla is a pretty strict place with magic, if it weren't, things would be nasty!
What is far more annoying, IMO, is how useless he is in that fight in the first place.
Big bloke in armour bearing down and he uses acid arrow?
Where's he's contingency?
No summons?
No spell trigger?
No haste?
Ect.................
And then a ridiculously anti climatic letter and reveal about who you really are.
The letter and reveal and how it's handled is probably the most jarring, immersion breaking part of the game.
It's a big deal, a huge deal and it's presented as a letter which, by that point after all the other scrolls/letters you have read, you skim read initially.
And then carry on exactly as you were.
I've just fought my way through an Illythid city, a Beholder lair, Fish people (various) and wiped out the drow city that was causing you so much bother.
And you have been doing what exactly?
Looking for a lamp..........................???
You find yourself thinking "the Drow have got a point"
And they are so rude, so dismissive of Viconia,
"HOW DARE THEY"
NO, NO, NO YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PUT A GEAS ON VICONIA.
Every time, I can't believe the game allows that to happen with no allowed reaction from Charname.
Really don't like them, really don't want to save their precious tree houses. If this is how you normally behave, if it weren't for the whole "soul" thing, Irenicus would have an ally.
Intelligent and often correct, but still douchebags. The 'Dude' has a line that fits most conversations with them pretty well.
#scapegoatrion
They are even accepted in some scifi settings -.- can of worms opening, leave the can closed!!
must...control...rage!!!
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