I agree with you that Jaheira doesn't seem like that, although i could make an argument that she's very predisposed to making poor decisions in such a distressful situation (Khalid's death).
But c'mon, Khalid is the definition of weak, dude's mumbling constantly and afraid of his own shadow. Not to mention totally pussy whipped by Jah.
Here are some of his quotes:
"I don’t want to seem c-confrontational, but could you be a little less…well…evil."
"Cities are always so intimidating, so many people."
"If...if you wish, but I'm not a very inspiring leader."
I agree with you that Jaheira doesn't seem like that, although i could make an argument that she's very predisposed to making poor decisions in such a distressful situation (Khalid's death).
But c'mon, Khalid is the definition of weak, dude's mumbling constantly and afraid of his own shadow. Not to mention totally pussy whipped by Jah.
Here are some of his quotes:
"I don’t want to seem c-confrontational, but could you be a little less…well…evil."
"Cities are always so intimidating, so many people."
"If...if you wish, but I'm not a very inspiring leader."
Rest my case.
I'm well aware of his quotes, thanks.
Khalid isn't weak. He has a 15/16/17 in STR/DEX/CON, which is pretty decent for a fighter. Because his father disliked him, he decided to get into fighting, probably as a means to prove himself. Taken straight out of his biography: "He does not say much of his parents, but you get the feeling that his merchant father thought little of him, devoting much more attention to Khalid's half brothers. Khalid thus threw himself into the martial pursuits, studying under members of the city militia." He was successful enough to join the Harpers, and catch the eye of Jaheira.
It's true that he's nervous, timid, and not fond of violence. Yet despite all of that, he still goes into battle with bandits, orcs, gnolls, undead, sirens, wizards, all the way up to the Iron Throne if you let him. He still willingly puts his life on the line for you and your quest.
He fights, even when he does not want to, even when he's scared. That's not weakness. To me, that is bravery at its best.
To be honest, his character is a bit of a dichotomy. When you see his avatar and his class, you might think he's pretty badass and not someone you wanna mess around with. But then he opens his mouth, and you see how Jah treats him like a doormat as well. Poorly written and very incongruent, if you ask me. Regarding his fighter stats, pretty sure he is the weakest pure fighter type in the entire saga with those stats and no special abilities, so not much of an argument there.
You see his will to carry on in the face of adversity, despite every cowardly instinct of his telling him otherwise, as a sign of bravery at its best. But what i see is a man without conviction, doing something he does not want to do only because others tell him to. What you posted from his biography reads as: insecure, daddy issues, validation seeking.
Khalid is not a real man, he is a dog, like one of those from Animal Farm of Pink Floyd's Animals. Simply a barely useful tool that others use to get their objectives done, only to discard him after the job is completed. Jaheira spent a whole two seconds grieving him before moving on with her life. She probably thought to herself, good riddance.
Jahiera is a druid. Druids are the incongruous environmentalist party of D&D. That should explain well enough her behavior for your total rpg immersion.
To be honest, his character is a bit of a dichotomy. When you see his avatar and his class, you might think he's pretty badass and not someone you wanna mess around with. But then he opens his mouth, and you see how Jah treats him like a doormat as well. Poorly written and very incongruent, if you ask me. Regarding his fighter stats, pretty sure he is the weakest pure fighter type in the entire saga with those stats and no special abilities, so not much of an argument there.
You see his will to carry on in the face of adversity, despite every cowardly instinct of his telling him otherwise, as a sign of bravery at its best. But what i see is a man without conviction, doing something he does not want to do only because others tell him to. What you posted from his biography reads as: insecure, daddy issues, validation seeking.
Khalid is not a real man, he is a dog, like one of those from Animal Farm of Pink Floyd's Animals. Simply a barely useful tool that others use to get their objectives done, only to discard him after the job is completed. Jaheira spent a whole two seconds grieving him before moving on with her life. She probably thought to herself, good riddance.
Two seconds, he says.
Two.
Seconds.
Here's what actually happened:
1. Jaheira's in her cell. You ask about where Khalid is, and she says this:
"I do not know where he is, and it worries me. No doubt he was taken as we were, though it seems we were all meant for different fates."
2. Then we find Khalid's body, and she LOSES HER SHIT.
Jaheira: "Kha... Khalid? (break) Khalid... No! This... This is an illusion, a dream... a bad dream... (break) Where are the mirrors, the switches to pull to show where he is hidden...? *sob* Khalid...! (break) Damn... Damn you... (break) Damn you! I will have the heart of who has done this! I will tear their blackened heart from their... I will... (break) I... no."
Charname: "This isn't real... Is it? Khalid, he... He couldn't really be dead?"
Jaheira: "Shut up! No more words! Words are nothing!"
Yoshimo: "I knew him not, but I mourn your loss."
Jaheira: "Stranger! Nobody! I will not hear your words! Leave me! (break) No words! No more words! Save your speeches, save your proverbs! The only voice I wish to hear is... Is dead! No more! No... (break) No... (break) Sil... Silvanus guide the light...to the source. Take this man to what he justly deserves. By... Nature's will, what was given is returned; what was turmoil is now... Is now peace. (break) Khalid of my heart, let my love...my love guide the way... (break) We... We must hurry before we are noticed. We must get out of this... This grave... and seek the light above. Let us go."
2. Imoen tries to reconcile her loss, and she LOSES HER SHIT AGAIN.
Imoen: "Jaheira... I wanna say how sorry I am about Khalid. I... I know this is hard..."
Jaheira: "No! You do not know. This is not the time for this conversation child."
Imoen: "Stop calling me child. I'm as old as Markra, and besides, I can tell you that Khalid did not suffer."
Jaheira: "What are you babbling about, Imoen? I'm not in the mood."
Imoen: "I'm not babbling! I saw him do this! Khalid was dead when our captor started... Doing those things to him!"
Jaheira: "You saw this? You watched it as it was done?"
Imoen: "He... He showed me. He cut and...and showed me. He forced my eyes open and made me look as he..."
Jaheira: "Stop. I don't want to hear this."
Imoen: "He said I should see, so I would understand, but I don't know what he wanted! He would cut and say 'Do you see?' Cut and say 'Do you see?'"
Jaheira: "Be quiet, child! No more!"
3. During a resting sequence, Jaheira confesses that she's been LOSING HER SHIT as she sleeps:
Charname: "I heard you thrashing all night, Jaheira. Nightmares? Relax, there is nothing wrong.
Jaheira: "No, there is something very wrong. I...I have been having nightmares, and when I wake, it is still there. Khalid...I thought I was stronger than this."
4. GOD FORBID you ever say a single bad thing about Khalid ever because if you do Jaheira will once again LOSE HER SHIT (and ruin any chance you had at romancing her).
Charname: "Jaheira, you were having another nightmare. It's a wonder you get any sleep at all."
Jaheira: "I...I am not so bad. This one was not so cruel as the others. Khalid was in the distance, but he would not come closer, and I could not see the way to him. He walked with us, from a distance. He smiled that I was content. I guess...I guess I was."
Charname: "Then we can finally be rid of his spectre then? I was getting tired of you constantly depressing me."
Jaheira: "This is quite cruel of you. So be it, I will not endeavor to speak to you of such things again. It is a waste of...of...Lets just get out of here."
5. Don't even get me STARTED about her interactions with Aerie and Viconia, both of whom take pot-shots at her dead hubby. In which Jaheira will predictably LOSE HER SHIT.
Aerie: "Shut up, Jaheira! You think he'll be somehow impressed because... because you're so mean? You do nothing but boss people around! No wonder that Khalid was the only man who would marry you!"
Jaheira: "I warned you before, girl! You know nothing of my Khalid and I will not tolerate your speaking of him!!"
Aerie: "Or what?! I do know of your Khalid! They say... they say he was a weak man who you bossed around! Well, Charname isn't like that! He isn't!!"
Jaheira: "I never said he was! And I will not have a foolish girl disparage my dead husband regardless of what you think my intentions towards Charname are!"
Viconia: "As transparent, perhaps, as your need to muscle your way into the business of others. You have the temperament of a high-strung poodle, druid... I find it surprising that your husband lived as long as he did."
Jaheira: "Utter his name not, drow. I'll not have you defile his memory, I warn you."
Viconia: "Your memory of him seems selective and short, but I remember him well. A bag on his head and I might have shown him what pleasures he was missing by--"
Jaheira: "Enough! Enough!! Khalid would never... I would never... enough!! I will not tolerate this, I swear I will kill you!!"
So no. I don't think Jaheira's mourning period is so short as "two seconds." I don't think she was so ready to dump him and think "good riddance." I think she lost someone she cared for, still misses him, but like most everyday persevering people, she eventually healed, found love in someone else, and moved on. Though not without a good amount of kicking and screaming and reconciling, I assure you.
Aerie: "Shut up, Jaheira! You think he'll be somehow impressed because... because you're so mean? You do nothing but boss people around! No wonder that Khalid was the only man who would marry you!"
Jaheira: "I warned you before, girl! You know nothing of my Khalid and I will not tolerate your speaking of him!!"
Aerie: "Or what?! I do know of your Khalid! They say... they say he was a weak man who you bossed around! Well, Charname isn't like that! He isn't!!" See, even Aerie knows what's up, haha. But seriously, do you not see what is happening here Nonnah? Khalid was obviously in an abusive relationship, so he took the easy way out, death by Irenicus' torture. Better than the alternative. Now the cougar is extra mad because she lost her favorite punchbag.
But on a serious serious note now, Jaheira's bitch fits are not actually about Khalid you see, she's quite a selfish individual, it's all about her and her perceived image. She sees herself as a very strong woman, and Khalid was a choice of hers, maybe not the best one but she'll never admit that. Nevertheless, she will not stand to be mocked by those other bitches regarding one of her choices. And also, she needs to maintain the persona of a loving, caring individual, not the heartless, bossy shrew that she actually is.
But on a serious serious note now, Jaheira's bitch fits are not actually about Khalid you see, she's quite a selfish individual, it's all about her and her perceived image. She sees herself as a very strong woman, and Khalid was a choice of hers, maybe not the best one but she'll never admit that. Nevertheless, she will not stand to be mocked by those other bitches regarding one of her choices. And also, she needs to maintain the persona of a loving, caring individual, not the heartless, bossy shrew that she actually is.
Obvious troll is obvious, but if you ignore the prejudice and macho bullshit, @AlexDeLarge's last comment is actually quite surprisingly insightful. Not necessarely correct though since I'm not sure that behaviour is aligned to Jaheira's alignment, but then again, some of her behavoir isn't really true-neutral anyways.
Doesn't Jaheira cheat on Khalid (while he was alive) with Abdel in the novelization? Not that that is anything to go by (avoiding the dreaded c-word here), but it seems more people have had ideas about J's tendencies... Makes you wonder why.
Well it's true that Khalid has a poor morale-breakpoint, which is a weakness - he doesn't make a good party leader, and he needs a good leader to follow (for which purpose Jaheira is fine, btw).
However, apart from that, Khalid is actually pretty strong - he's a capable warrior for both melee and range.
Everyone someone complains about Khalid constantly getting morale failures, I can't help but picture one of those guys who think they're smarter than everyone because they min max. They play a munchkin charname with 3 CHA (who's obviously the party leader at all times) and when Khalid starts running they go "LOL KHALED IS TEH SUXXOR". I usually play high-CHA adventurers and I've seen Jaheira reach her breaking point more often than Khalid.
I know he actually has lower morale than other NPCs, but it's certain not crippling. Unless, you know, CHA 3.
Biff the Understudy is not such a bad NPC, sure his stats aren't the greatest, but with thought, planning and proper itemization, you can build him to be an effective companion. Plus, his personality accurately describes the average human condition. See? If we try hard enough, we can find a silver lining for anyone.
Play Khalid all you want, no one stopping you, but don't come here and preach about him being something more than he actually is, some newbie might actually take your word for it and then shed tears of frustration and disappointment later on. In my games, he gets the boot asap every time.
@AlexDeLarge Then they were never loyal in the first place, its one think for the flame of a candle to burn out. But, at least break up with them, just going behind their back and cheating show you never had any love or real respect for them at all.
I agree with you that Jaheira doesn't seem like that, although i could make an argument that she's very predisposed to making poor decisions in such a distressful situation (Khalid's death).
But c'mon, Khalid is the definition of weak, dude's mumbling constantly and afraid of his own shadow. Not to mention totally pussy whipped by Jah.
Here are some of his quotes:
"I don’t want to seem c-confrontational, but could you be a little less…well…evil."
"Cities are always so intimidating, so many people."
"If...if you wish, but I'm not a very inspiring leader."
Rest my case.
I'm well aware of his quotes, thanks.
Khalid isn't weak. He has a 15/16/17 in STR/DEX/CON, which is pretty decent for a fighter. Because his father disliked him, he decided to get into fighting, probably as a means to prove himself. Taken straight out of his biography: "He does not say much of his parents, but you get the feeling that his merchant father thought little of him, devoting much more attention to Khalid's half brothers. Khalid thus threw himself into the martial pursuits, studying under members of the city militia." He was successful enough to join the Harpers, and catch the eye of Jaheira.
It's true that he's nervous, timid, and not fond of violence. Yet despite all of that, he still goes into battle with bandits, orcs, gnolls, undead, sirens, wizards, all the way up to the Iron Throne if you let him. He still willingly puts his life on the line for you and your quest.
He fights, even when he does not want to, even when he's scared. That's not weakness. To me, that is bravery at its best.
@Nonnahswriter What is with you people and throwing little numbers all around? Being weak willed, mentally weak, consciously weak and numbers that deal his stats. I don't care if someone is 18 plus w/e in strength, if someone is timid mentally, then they are timid being magically strong doesn't change that. Khalid is weak willed, he could have a wisdom and intelligent score of 19, and he will still be weak willed, that is a CHARACTER TRAIT, not some stat.
@DragonKing I didn't just point out his stats, but whatever. I already said I don't consider him weak-willed and that's my opinion. It's different from yours, and that's okay. I've already said my part and I'm not going to argue about it anymore. Because as semiticgod says, he's a freaking fictional character.
Khalid was obviously in an abusive relationship, so he took the easy way out, death by Irenicus' torture.
First, I have to pause at that "obviously" you used there. While that is certainly an interesting interpretation of their relationship, it is hardly the only one - and far from the most obvious one. Just look at their banter, a la BG1:
Khalid: Must you always be so... so...
Jaheira: Insufferable?
Khalid: Yes!
(paraphrased)
This kind of playful banter doesn't sound like it comes from a relationship where one is abusive to the other (either physically or emotionally). It sounds like two people who are comfortable enough with one another to engage in some lighthearted ribbing.
Second, how can you say Khalid "took the easy way out" when he was TORTURED TO DEATH? As if he had a choice in the matter! By that logic, you might as well say people who are beaten to death by their abusers are also "taking the easy way out." Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but do you see how your comment can come across as seriously offensive?
@Nonnahswriter Lol, sorry that came off alot more aggressive than it was actually meant to be. Yes he is a fictional character, but talking about them like this is part of the fun of the character. Just because they are fictional, doesn't mean they can't be fascinating or interesting.
Lol, sorry that came off alot more aggressive than it was actually meant to be. Yes he is a fictional character, but talking about them like this is part of the fun of the character. Just because they are fictional, doesn't mean they can't be fascinating or interesting.
Khalid was obviously in an abusive relationship, so he took the easy way out, death by Irenicus' torture.
Second, how can you say Khalid "took the easy way out" when he was TORTURED TO DEATH? As if he had a choice in the matter! By that logic, you might as well say people who are beaten to death by their abusers are also "taking the easy way out." Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but do you see how your comment can come across as seriously offensive?
I agree on the Jaheria romance having a creep factor
There is no creep factor. Elves mature (either physically and/or emotionally) at about 120 years at least. Which means that an elf could be 500 years old, look young and fall in love with a human in his 30s.
Now let's add that Jaheira is a half-elf and younger than that. Because half-elves mature faster and don't live as much.
About the thing people say, that a relationship with Jaheira is forced. It isn't. People in real life bounce from one relationship to another so they don't get depressed.
She saw her husband dead and mutilated. She needed to do something about it emotionally and psychologically so she doesn't go crazy and get depressed.
Also the leader of the group that has proven himself to be a grown man instead of a boy, spent time with him day and night and helped her, as well as her helping him, is a natural and logical choice.
She was also added because of her personality. She's a mother figure that players can find attractive. Aerie is the weaker cute girl that players would want to take care of. And Viconia is the femme fatale, the dangerous and mysterious dark elf woman.
As for Khalid, he is a man with low confidence. Confidence is almost always depicted with Charisma. Force of personality. Magnetism. His Charisma is 9. It's also why high Charisma means good leadership even mechanics-wise. NPCs won't get into fights as often. You have the confidence and strength of personality to put your foot down and get the others in line.
And to use real-world studies, most women prefer men with confidence and it's usually the number one on the list. Khalid was not a man with confidence. Charname is supposed to be. (Unless powergamers put his CHA at 3, which in DnD terms, means he/she should be reviled and force others to join him. Or be too afraid to even talk to or look at others.)
Background info: My Mother was a Cougar when I was young and it creeped me out and embarrassed me when she would hit on guys just barely over the age of consent. Especially if they were just a few years older than I was at the time.
I am in my mid 40s, 45 to be exact. A few years back I was taking college courses and 4 young 18-19 year old boys were actively flirting and hitting on myself and another classmate in the over 30 category. I had to routinely tell them that "it would never happen", that I was not and will not be a cougar, I was and am happily in my relationship, and would Not do anything like that to damage it. The issue became bothersome, and irritating. I reminded them I was literally old enough to be their Momma, and the very idea creeped me out. This went on for the entire Semester. I showed them the photo of my son on my folder and said " when you talk that way to me it is a disturbing as if this little boy is talking that way".
So, in light of this you can see why cougar behavior is creepy in my book. I know this may not be a popular opinion, but it is mine.
Therefore @Archaos If I choose to see Jaheria as a BG Cougar, seeing as she was an acting guardian appointed by Gorian and think it is a little creepy, then that is my choice. After all we can choose many aspects in an RPG including Head-cannon. Some can even choose the fan-fictoin of a triad with Jaheria/ Charname /Khalid in BG1, there may even be a mod for that option.
I apologize if it seemed like arguing with your opinion. I was talking in an objective way.
Sure, personally, it could be creepy. Just as some might find it creepy romancing a vampire or a half-orc.
It's that objectively, there's nothing creepy about it. Especially setting-wise as centuries old elves and half-elves get into relationships with 20-30s humans in the Realms.
It's far more "normal" to romance someone much much older than yourself than a vampire or half-orc, again, setting-wise.
If we use real-life analogies, sure someone happily married wouldn't be interested in it. Though from the perspective of Jaheira, she's a widow and like many RL cougars, she doesn't mind men that are younger.
I guess Charname proven himself to be a man and not a boy that is barely an adult. So she doesn't see him as a young boy she was supposed to protect but as a man that is apparently attractive, at least maturity and personality-wise.
My curiosity is about the title of the thread itself. "Jaheira's Infidelity". Against whom is she committing infidelity? Her poor, dead husband? He is dead--she is no longer bound by any marital vows they might have made to one another; therefore, she cannot commit infidelity.
It may seem like "not very long" to us but then time in the game doesn't progress at the same rate as time here; usually by the time the romance starts a couple of weeks have passed. Still not a long time but consider the situation the male protagonist and Jaheira are in--enemies everywhere and almost constantly in a state of battle. That sort of situation tends to make people form emotional bonds with each other relatively quickly because, often literally, your life depends upon them. Given that various groups are out to kill you and/or betray both you and Jaheira, the male protagonist winds up being the only person in whom she dare place any trust; hence, it is perfectly understandable why she would form such a bond in a relatively short amount of time.
Noty knows that I don't normally play out in-game romances--I find them all to be a waste of time--but if I were going to have a male protagonist pursue a romance in BG2EE it would have to be Jaheira. Viconia is too much of a dom and Aerie is too emotionally fragile and whiny; I don't know about the other romances via mods because I don't use them.
We have had this conversation in person a couple of times. His game his choice. I still get to pick at him, it is one of my stronger Love languages.
"There are only four questions of value in life, Don Octavio: What is sacred? Of what is spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is only love."
Don Juan, Don Juan DeMarco, (1995).
" Love is the only bow on Life's dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher. It is the air and light of every heart — builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody — for music is the voice of love. Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods." Robert G. Ingersoll, Orthodoxy, Works, Vol. II (1884), p. 420.
In other words : With all of the trials, fights, pain, suffering, death, and torture the People involved should be allowed to know Love, with out love it seems like a hollow victory ( Notabarbiegirl)
@Mathsorcerer really is not a mod player. He mods the dog snot out of his game on his own, but really does not use others work. If you want a hard slog through an encounter try to persuade him to publish his tweaks.
I believe It is about choice and I will and do use mods Bless G3 and all of the talent involved. Of course I do tend to play a female Charname and want options. I have Gavin Mor for BGEE ( Yea, he has been EE approved) , NPC for BGEE, and Kelsey for BG2EE. Waiting for Gavin to be BG2 EE ready. I have even been known to beta a time or two. EDIT : I think I should clarify that I have Beta tested mods, seeing as that word is being used in other contexts else-wear :
I agree about the choices for romanceable NPC/ companions being slim in an unmodded game, before EE especially.
Comments
But c'mon, Khalid is the definition of weak, dude's mumbling constantly and afraid of his own shadow. Not to mention totally pussy whipped by Jah.
Here are some of his quotes:
"I don’t want to seem c-confrontational, but could you be a little less…well…evil."
"Cities are always so intimidating, so many people."
"If...if you wish, but I'm not a very inspiring leader."
Rest my case.
Khalid isn't weak. He has a 15/16/17 in STR/DEX/CON, which is pretty decent for a fighter. Because his father disliked him, he decided to get into fighting, probably as a means to prove himself. Taken straight out of his biography: "He does not say much of his parents, but you get the feeling that his merchant father thought little of him, devoting much more attention to Khalid's half brothers. Khalid thus threw himself into the martial pursuits, studying under members of the city militia." He was successful enough to join the Harpers, and catch the eye of Jaheira.
It's true that he's nervous, timid, and not fond of violence. Yet despite all of that, he still goes into battle with bandits, orcs, gnolls, undead, sirens, wizards, all the way up to the Iron Throne if you let him. He still willingly puts his life on the line for you and your quest.
He fights, even when he does not want to, even when he's scared. That's not weakness. To me, that is bravery at its best.
You see his will to carry on in the face of adversity, despite every cowardly instinct of his telling him otherwise, as a sign of bravery at its best. But what i see is a man without conviction, doing something he does not want to do only because others tell him to. What you posted from his biography reads as: insecure, daddy issues, validation seeking.
Khalid is not a real man, he is a dog, like one of those from Animal Farm of Pink Floyd's Animals. Simply a barely useful tool that others use to get their objectives done, only to discard him after the job is completed. Jaheira spent a whole two seconds grieving him before moving on with her life. She probably thought to herself, good riddance.
Two.
Seconds.
Here's what actually happened:
1. Jaheira's in her cell. You ask about where Khalid is, and she says this:
"I do not know where he is, and it worries me. No doubt he was taken as we were, though it seems we were all meant for different fates."
2. Then we find Khalid's body, and she LOSES HER SHIT.
Charname: "This isn't real... Is it? Khalid, he... He couldn't really be dead?"
Jaheira: "Shut up! No more words! Words are nothing!"
Yoshimo: "I knew him not, but I mourn your loss."
Jaheira: "Stranger! Nobody! I will not hear your words! Leave me! (break) No words! No more words! Save your speeches, save your proverbs! The only voice I wish to hear is... Is dead! No more! No... (break) No... (break) Sil... Silvanus guide the light...to the source. Take this man to what he justly deserves. By... Nature's will, what was given is returned; what was turmoil is now... Is now peace. (break) Khalid of my heart, let my love...my love guide the way... (break) We... We must hurry before we are noticed. We must get out of this... This grave... and seek the light above. Let us go."
2. Imoen tries to reconcile her loss, and she LOSES HER SHIT AGAIN.
Jaheira: "No! You do not know. This is not the time for this conversation child."
Imoen: "Stop calling me child. I'm as old as Markra, and besides, I can tell you that Khalid did not suffer."
Jaheira: "What are you babbling about, Imoen? I'm not in the mood."
Imoen: "I'm not babbling! I saw him do this! Khalid was dead when our captor started... Doing those things to him!"
Jaheira: "You saw this? You watched it as it was done?"
Imoen: "He... He showed me. He cut and...and showed me. He forced my eyes open and made me look as he..."
Jaheira: "Stop. I don't want to hear this."
Imoen: "He said I should see, so I would understand, but I don't know what he wanted! He would cut and say 'Do you see?' Cut and say 'Do you see?'"
Jaheira: "Be quiet, child! No more!"
3. During a resting sequence, Jaheira confesses that she's been LOSING HER SHIT as she sleeps:
Charname: "I heard you thrashing all night, Jaheira. Nightmares? Relax, there is nothing wrong.
Jaheira: "No, there is something very wrong. I...I have been having nightmares, and when I wake, it is still there. Khalid...I thought I was stronger than this."
4. GOD FORBID you ever say a single bad thing about Khalid ever because if you do Jaheira will once again LOSE HER SHIT (and ruin any chance you had at romancing her).
Charname: "Jaheira, you were having another nightmare. It's a wonder you get any sleep at all."
Jaheira: "I...I am not so bad. This one was not so cruel as the others. Khalid was in the distance, but he would not come closer, and I could not see the way to him. He walked with us, from a distance. He smiled that I was content. I guess...I guess I was."
Charname: "Then we can finally be rid of his spectre then? I was getting tired of you constantly depressing me."
Jaheira: "This is quite cruel of you. So be it, I will not endeavor to speak to you of such things again. It is a waste of...of...Lets just get out of here."
5. Don't even get me STARTED about her interactions with Aerie and Viconia, both of whom take pot-shots at her dead hubby. In which Jaheira will predictably LOSE HER SHIT.
Jaheira: "I warned you before, girl! You know nothing of my Khalid and I will not tolerate your speaking of him!!"
Aerie: "Or what?! I do know of your Khalid! They say... they say he was a weak man who you bossed around! Well, Charname isn't like that! He isn't!!"
Jaheira: "I never said he was! And I will not have a foolish girl disparage my dead husband regardless of what you think my intentions towards Charname are!"
Viconia: "As transparent, perhaps, as your need to muscle your way into the business of others. You have the temperament of a high-strung poodle, druid... I find it surprising that your husband lived as long as he did."
Jaheira: "Utter his name not, drow. I'll not have you defile his memory, I warn you."
Viconia: "Your memory of him seems selective and short, but I remember him well. A bag on his head and I might have shown him what pleasures he was missing by--"
Jaheira: "Enough! Enough!! Khalid would never... I would never... enough!! I will not tolerate this, I swear I will kill you!!"
So no. I don't think Jaheira's mourning period is so short as "two seconds." I don't think she was so ready to dump him and think "good riddance." I think she lost someone she cared for, still misses him, but like most everyday persevering people, she eventually healed, found love in someone else, and moved on. Though not without a good amount of kicking and screaming and reconciling, I assure you.
Jaheira: "I warned you before, girl! You know nothing of my Khalid and I will not tolerate your speaking of him!!"
Aerie: "Or what?! I do know of your Khalid! They say... they say he was a weak man who you bossed around! Well, Charname isn't like that! He isn't!!" See, even Aerie knows what's up, haha. But seriously, do you not see what is happening here Nonnah? Khalid was obviously in an abusive relationship, so he took the easy way out, death by Irenicus' torture. Better than the alternative. Now the cougar is extra mad because she lost her favorite punchbag.
But on a serious serious note now, Jaheira's bitch fits are not actually about Khalid you see, she's quite a selfish individual, it's all about her and her perceived image. She sees herself as a very strong woman, and Khalid was a choice of hers, maybe not the best one but she'll never admit that. Nevertheless, she will not stand to be mocked by those other bitches regarding one of her choices. And also, she needs to maintain the persona of a loving, caring individual, not the heartless, bossy shrew that she actually is.
I'm out *drops mic*
Speaking of the novels, aren't we?
However, apart from that, Khalid is actually pretty strong - he's a capable warrior for both melee and range.
I know he actually has lower morale than other NPCs, but it's certain not crippling. Unless, you know, CHA 3.
Play Khalid all you want, no one stopping you, but don't come here and preach about him being something more than he actually is, some newbie might actually take your word for it and then shed tears of frustration and disappointment later on. In my games, he gets the boot asap every time.
Then they were never loyal in the first place, its one think for the flame of a candle to burn out. But, at least break up with them, just going behind their back and cheating show you never had any love or real respect for them at all.
What is with you people and throwing little numbers all around? Being weak willed, mentally weak, consciously weak and numbers that deal his stats. I don't care if someone is 18 plus w/e in strength, if someone is timid mentally, then they are timid being magically strong doesn't change that. Khalid is weak willed, he could have a wisdom and intelligent score of 19, and he will still be weak willed, that is a CHARACTER TRAIT, not some stat.
This kind of playful banter doesn't sound like it comes from a relationship where one is abusive to the other (either physically or emotionally). It sounds like two people who are comfortable enough with one another to engage in some lighthearted ribbing.
Second, how can you say Khalid "took the easy way out" when he was TORTURED TO DEATH? As if he had a choice in the matter! By that logic, you might as well say people who are beaten to death by their abusers are also "taking the easy way out." Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but do you see how your comment can come across as seriously offensive?
Lol, sorry that came off alot more aggressive than it was actually meant to be. Yes he is a fictional character, but talking about them like this is part of the fun of the character. Just because they are fictional, doesn't mean they can't be fascinating or interesting.
But that's just my take.
Which means that an elf could be 500 years old, look young and fall in love with a human in his 30s.
Now let's add that Jaheira is a half-elf and younger than that. Because half-elves mature faster and don't live as much.
About the thing people say, that a relationship with Jaheira is forced. It isn't.
People in real life bounce from one relationship to another so they don't get depressed.
She saw her husband dead and mutilated. She needed to do something about it emotionally and psychologically so she doesn't go crazy and get depressed.
Also the leader of the group that has proven himself to be a grown man instead of a boy, spent time with him day and night and helped her, as well as her helping him, is a natural and logical choice.
She was also added because of her personality. She's a mother figure that players can find attractive.
Aerie is the weaker cute girl that players would want to take care of.
And Viconia is the femme fatale, the dangerous and mysterious dark elf woman.
As for Khalid, he is a man with low confidence. Confidence is almost always depicted with Charisma. Force of personality. Magnetism. His Charisma is 9.
It's also why high Charisma means good leadership even mechanics-wise. NPCs won't get into fights as often.
You have the confidence and strength of personality to put your foot down and get the others in line.
And to use real-world studies, most women prefer men with confidence and it's usually the number one on the list.
Khalid was not a man with confidence. Charname is supposed to be.
(Unless powergamers put his CHA at 3, which in DnD terms, means he/she should be reviled and force others to join him.
Or be too afraid to even talk to or look at others.)
Background info:
My Mother was a Cougar when I was young and it creeped me out and embarrassed me when she would hit on guys just barely over the age of consent. Especially if they were just a few years older than I was at the time.
I am in my mid 40s, 45 to be exact. A few years back I was taking college courses and 4 young 18-19 year old boys were actively flirting and hitting on myself and another classmate in the over 30 category.
I had to routinely tell them that "it would never happen", that I was not and will not be a cougar, I was and am happily in my relationship, and would Not do anything like that to damage it. The issue became bothersome, and irritating. I reminded them I was literally old enough to be their Momma, and the very idea creeped me out. This went on for the entire Semester. I showed them the photo of my son on my folder and said " when you talk that way to me it is a disturbing as if this little boy is talking that way".
So, in light of this you can see why cougar behavior is creepy in my book. I know this may not be a popular opinion, but it is mine.
Therefore @Archaos If I choose to see Jaheria as a BG Cougar, seeing as she was an acting guardian appointed by Gorian and think it is a little creepy, then that is my choice. After all we can choose many aspects in an RPG including Head-cannon. Some can even choose the fan-fictoin of a triad with Jaheria/ Charname /Khalid in BG1, there may even be a mod for that option.
Have a lovely day
I apologize if it seemed like arguing with your opinion. I was talking in an objective way.
Sure, personally, it could be creepy. Just as some might find it creepy romancing a vampire or a half-orc.
It's that objectively, there's nothing creepy about it. Especially setting-wise as centuries old elves and half-elves get into relationships with 20-30s humans in the Realms.
It's far more "normal" to romance someone much much older than yourself than a vampire or half-orc, again, setting-wise.
If we use real-life analogies, sure someone happily married wouldn't be interested in it.
Though from the perspective of Jaheira, she's a widow and like many RL cougars, she doesn't mind men that are younger.
I guess Charname proven himself to be a man and not a boy that is barely an adult.
So she doesn't see him as a young boy she was supposed to protect but as a man that is apparently attractive, at least maturity and personality-wise.
It may seem like "not very long" to us but then time in the game doesn't progress at the same rate as time here; usually by the time the romance starts a couple of weeks have passed. Still not a long time but consider the situation the male protagonist and Jaheira are in--enemies everywhere and almost constantly in a state of battle. That sort of situation tends to make people form emotional bonds with each other relatively quickly because, often literally, your life depends upon them. Given that various groups are out to kill you and/or betray both you and Jaheira, the male protagonist winds up being the only person in whom she dare place any trust; hence, it is perfectly understandable why she would form such a bond in a relatively short amount of time.
Noty knows that I don't normally play out in-game romances--I find them all to be a waste of time--but if I were going to have a male protagonist pursue a romance in BG2EE it would have to be Jaheira. Viconia is too much of a dom and Aerie is too emotionally fragile and whiny; I don't know about the other romances via mods because I don't use them.
"There are only four questions of value in life, Don Octavio: What is sacred? Of what is spirit made? What is worth living for? What is worth dying for? The answer to each is only love."
Don Juan, Don Juan DeMarco, (1995).
" Love is the only bow on Life's dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher. It is the air and light of every heart — builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody — for music is the voice of love. Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods."
Robert G. Ingersoll, Orthodoxy, Works, Vol. II (1884), p. 420.
In other words : With all of the trials, fights, pain, suffering, death, and torture the People involved should be allowed to know Love, with out love it seems like a hollow victory
( Notabarbiegirl)
@Mathsorcerer really is not a mod player. He mods the dog snot out of his game on his own, but really does not use others work. If you want a hard slog through an encounter try to persuade him to publish his tweaks.
I believe It is about choice and I will and do use mods Bless G3 and all of the talent involved.
Of course I do tend to play a female Charname and want options. I have Gavin Mor for BGEE ( Yea, he has been EE approved) , NPC for BGEE, and Kelsey for BG2EE. Waiting for Gavin to be BG2 EE ready. I have even been known to beta a time or two.
I agree about the choices for romanceable NPC/ companions being slim in an unmodded game, before EE especially.