I always feel like fans of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowwind are praising complexity for the sake of complexity. Complicated is not synonymous with good. I feel like oblivion hit the best balance between systems vs. being able to figure them out with without an undue timesink.
I should start this by saying I like Skyrim, it's just more restrictive than Morrowind is due to character building and thereby I like it less. Also, after writing this I realized that it's just a rant so I put it in spoilers so people can skip over it if they want.
So I had this discussion with a friend about what is good pruning in a TES game and what is just simplification. This is in the context of Morrowind vs Skyrim.
Dividing Mysticism Spells across other schools I'm ok with. It's even stated in TES lore that spells schools are just useful for catagorizing spells and there's nothing innately different between a fireball and soul trap. It's just catagorizing by wizards. So maybe over time these wizards decided Mysticism didn't need to be a whole school anymore.
Removal of Athletics and Acrobatics? Booooo. There's nothing to replace it other than leveling fatigue which just lets you sprint longer. There's nothing to simulate being an acrobatic character and that archetype is simply gone from the game. Less builds = bad.
Removing spell making was a bad move as well. They introduced new spell effects in Skyrim that didn't scale so eventually would stop being useful. Also if you wanted to RP as a Bard like I do then being able to name your spells to be flavorful to the class idea is great. Again, less options = bad.
Removing Tantos, Spears, and other unique weapons, again, is bad. Even if they mechanically work the same as other weapons aesthetic *is* important. It's the difference between a damage spell that burns someone to death vs withering them away. Both are "Deal 30 damage over 10 second." but the flavor is important for realizing a character idea.
Skyrim added dual wielding, awesome! It added a new character archetype but only for the cost of dozens of others!. . .
Also I'm fine with removing durability and turning smithing into crafting your own stuff. That's good! Also smithing lets me say that spellmaking wasn't removed because of balance since if so then smithing wouldn't let you create weapons with infinity +1 damage.
Fast Travel is good, but I wish they also added more RP friendly travel than just the carts between cities. Also there is no incentive to use the cart since fast travel is free. I would say if you use the cart you should get the well rested buff like sleeping in beds (if it actually already does this and I am just unaware then rad!).
The removal of attributes I am semi-ok with. I'm a huge nerd and love attributes and love seeing how they shape a character. I played my fox bard run of Morrowind with low endurance and strength because the character was physically pathetic but had MASSIVE LUCK to make up for it. Their personality was also maxed out as they literally talked their way out of 90% of fights (as using the mentioned calm+speechcraft). Skyrim removing attributes is ok if they want to add that to skills and the magic, health, and stamina bar stuff.
BUT WHERE IS LUCK. Again, by removing stats without compensating you removed an archetype. Luck was AWESOME in Morrowind. It gave you a bonus modifier to every action from attack rolls, to stealth checks, to speechcraft checks. Perfect for a jack-of-all-trades. Like a Bard. *cough*
Factions in Skyrim are bonkers. It's so easy to lead every guild but with some self-imposed restrictions you can avoid this. Except the Bard college. Screw the bard college. Got my hopes up for nothing >_>
Of my like hundreds of hours playing skyrim I remember encountering like 5 speechcraft checks. Speechcraft is awful in Skyrim. Waste of a skill, can be fixed with mods but I'm avoiding talking about mods when comparing the games.
Ok I've ranted enough but basically, for me in particular, Skyrim adds like 2 things at the cost of a bunch of other stuff and thereby is worse for character building. I like Skyrim but given the choice between Morrowind and it I'll play Morrowind.
I should start this by saying I like Skyrim, it's just more restrictive than Morrowind is due to character building and thereby I like it less. Also, after writing this I realized that it's just a rant so I put it in spoilers so people can skip over it if they want.
So I had this discussion with a friend about what is good pruning in a TES game and what is just simplification. This is in the context of Morrowind vs Skyrim.
Dividing Mysticism Spells across other schools I'm ok with. It's even stated in TES lore that spells schools are just useful for catagorizing spells and there's nothing innately different between a fireball and soul trap. It's just catagorizing by wizards. So maybe over time these wizards decided Mysticism didn't need to be a whole school anymore.
Removal of Athletics and Acrobatics? Booooo. There's nothing to replace it other than leveling fatigue which just lets you sprint longer. There's nothing to simulate being an acrobatic character and that archetype is simply gone from the game. Less builds = bad.
Removing spell making was a bad move as well. They introduced new spell effects in Skyrim that didn't scale so eventually would stop being useful. Also if you wanted to RP as a Bard like I do then being able to name your spells to be flavorful to the class idea is great. Again, less options = bad.
Removing Tantos, Spears, and other unique weapons, again, is bad. Even if they mechanically work the same as other weapons aesthetic *is* important. It's the difference between a damage spell that burns someone to death vs withering them away. Both are "Deal 30 damage over 10 second." but the flavor is important for realizing a character idea.
Skyrim added dual wielding, awesome! It added a new character archetype but only for the cost of dozens of others!. . .
Also I'm fine with removing durability and turning smithing into crafting your own stuff. That's good! Also smithing lets me say that spellmaking wasn't removed because of balance since if so then smithing wouldn't let you create weapons with infinity +1 damage.
Fast Travel is good, but I wish they also added more RP friendly travel than just the carts between cities. Also there is no incentive to use the cart since fast travel is free. I would say if you use the cart you should get the well rested buff like sleeping in beds (if it actually already does this and I am just unaware then rad!).
The removal of attributes I am semi-ok with. I'm a huge nerd and love attributes and love seeing how they shape a character. I played my fox bard run of Morrowind with low endurance and strength because the character was physically pathetic but had MASSIVE LUCK to make up for it. Their personality was also maxed out as they literally talked their way out of 90% of fights (as using the mentioned calm+speechcraft). Skyrim removing attributes is ok if they want to add that to skills and the magic, health, and stamina bar stuff.
BUT WHERE IS LUCK. Again, by removing stats without compensating you removed an archetype. Luck was AWESOME in Morrowind. It gave you a bonus modifier to every action from attack rolls, to stealth checks, to speechcraft checks. Perfect for a jack-of-all-trades. Like a Bard. *cough*
Factions in Skyrim are bonkers. It's so easy to lead every guild but with some self-imposed restrictions you can avoid this. Except the Bard college. Screw the bard college. Got my hopes up for nothing >_>
Of my like hundreds of hours playing skyrim I remember encountering like 5 speechcraft checks. Speechcraft is awful in Skyrim. Waste of a skill, can be fixed with mods but I'm avoiding talking about mods when comparing the games.
Ok I've ranted enough but basically, for me in particular, Skyrim adds like 2 things at the cost of a bunch of other stuff and thereby is worse for character building. I like Skyrim but given the choice between Morrowind and it I'll play Morrowind.
Great rant! It really shows why Skyrim is overrated and a dissapointment for long time RPG and Elder Scrolls fans.
@ShapiroKeatsDarkMage Nice blanket statement. Of course it ignores people who, despite having played both MorrowWind and Oblivion first, find Skyrim to be their favorite TES game.
All three games were incredibly popular, both when they came out and to the present day. None of them was a disappointment for the majority of the fanbase. When each game came out, people were blown away.
A lot of people think one game is distinctly better than the others, but very few people think any one of them is bad.
Yeah, as stated I liked Skyrim. It's not a favorite but I don't regret my time on it. It's only if I'm seeking to replay a TES game my default right now is Morrowind. That may change once I dig into Daggerfall or Oblivion though.
All three games were incredibly popular, both when they came out and to the present day. None of them was a disappointment for the majority of the fanbase. When each game came out, people were blown away.
A lot of people think one game is distinctly better than the others, but very few people think any one of them is bad.
I never said Skyrim was a bad game, only that its a bit or two too streamlined compared to Oblivion and Morrowind.
I never played the first two but I'd go with 1.Oblivian 2.Morrowind 3.Skyrim
I think Morrowind is too obtuse, but Skyrim goes too far in the other direction. Oblivion certainly has its flaws, but it strikes a good balance between complexity and accessibility.
The only major gripe I have with Oblivion is the stat progression system and the level scaling of everything that makes you spend most of your time using all the skills that are the opposite of the build you chose. Morrowind had this to some degree but it was mostly offset by the lack of level scaling, so you could either gain levels quickly with less gains or gain them slower with a lot more stat gains and either way it was relatively the same. Doing so in Oblivion means you are making yourself underpowered compared to everything else. The only way for the unarmed build to achieve true mastery of the martial arts is by swinging a warhammer and a greatsword around most all the time.
Oh, and no love for spears. Completely uneccesary to cut from the game. I like spears.
I always feel like fans of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowwind are praising complexity for the sake of complexity. Complicated is not synonymous with good. I feel like oblivion hit the best balance between systems vs. being able to figure them out with without an undue timesink.
I remember when Morrowind was new and I got into arguments with people who insisted that Morrowind was dumbed down and oversimplified compared to Baldur's Gate.
I always feel like fans of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowwind are praising complexity for the sake of complexity. Complicated is not synonymous with good. I feel like oblivion hit the best balance between systems vs. being able to figure them out with without an undue timesink.
I remember when Morrowind was new and I got into arguments with people who insisted that Morrowind was dumbed down and oversimplified compared to Baldur's Gate.
Really!? But they are almost completely different games.
Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (OOO) does several things:
1. Decreases the impact of levels on enemy strength (gaining levels is always a net gain for the player, even if you don't do it efficiently) 2. Dungeon difficulty increases the further away you are from the nearest town (a nearby cave is easy to tackle, while a distant fortress is extremely dangerous) 3. Increases the strength of average enemies (you can't mow stuff down at level 1 anymore; a single enemy humanoid is a serious threat) 4. Increases the number of enemies to increase the intensity of combat 5. Decreases the rate at which certain skills increase (which balances out the increased intensity of fights and doesn't reward grinding as much) 6. Gives enemies potions, new spells, and other things to make fighting them a little more complex 7. Adds new content (spells, items, critters) in various places
Overall, the game is more difficult (which you can fix with the difficulty slider if you want), more complex, more intense, more balanced, and rewards instead of punishes the player for gaining levels. It doesn't change the nature of Oblivion gameplay; it just makes things more interesting and rewarding.
Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul (OOO) does several things:
1. Decreases the impact of levels on enemy strength (gaining levels is always a net gain for the player, even if you don't do it efficiently) 2. Dungeon difficulty increases the further away you are from the nearest town (a nearby cave is easy to tackle, while a distant fortress is extremely dangerous) 3. Increases the strength of average enemies (you can't mow stuff down at level 1 anymore; a single enemy humanoid is a serious threat) 4. Increases the number of enemies to increase the intensity of combat 5. Decreases the rate at which certain skills increase (which balances out the increased intensity of fights and doesn't reward grinding as much) 6. Gives enemies potions, new spells, and other things to make fighting them a little more complex 7. Adds new content (spells, items, critters) in various places
Overall, the game is more difficult (which you can fix with the difficulty slider if you want), more complex, more intense, more balanced, and rewards instead of punishes the player for gaining levels. It doesn't change the nature of Oblivion gameplay; it just makes things more interesting and rewarding.
I always feel like fans of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowwind are praising complexity for the sake of complexity. Complicated is not synonymous with good. I feel like oblivion hit the best balance between systems vs. being able to figure them out with without an undue timesink.
I remember when Morrowind was new and I got into arguments with people who insisted that Morrowind was dumbed down and oversimplified compared to Baldur's Gate.
Really!? But they are almost completely different games.
I know, right? They were some of the weirdest gaming arguments I've ever been in.
I always feel like fans of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowwind are praising complexity for the sake of complexity. Complicated is not synonymous with good. I feel like oblivion hit the best balance between systems vs. being able to figure them out with without an undue timesink.
I remember when Morrowind was new and I got into arguments with people who insisted that Morrowind was dumbed down and oversimplified compared to Baldur's Gate.
Except, even despite being totally different games, I would argue that Morrowind is far MORE complex than Baldur's Gate is. I have a PDF of the GOTY strategy guide and it is over 400 pages long. The complexity of the Infinity Engine games seems to come from the fact that THACO means negative numbers are better. Since I played the 2nd Edition games BEFORE 3rd Edition games, it is actually Icewind Dale 2 and Neverwinter Nights that seem more complicated to me.
Battlespire is pretty bad all-around. Redguard is charming in that early Playstation/N64 graphics kind of way, but is basically unplayable from a control perspective.
I always feel like fans of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowwind are praising complexity for the sake of complexity. Complicated is not synonymous with good. I feel like oblivion hit the best balance between systems vs. being able to figure them out with without an undue timesink.
I remember when Morrowind was new and I got into arguments with people who insisted that Morrowind was dumbed down and oversimplified compared to Baldur's Gate.
Except, even despite being totally different games, I would argue that Morrowind is far MORE complex than Baldur's Gate is. I have a PDF of the GOTY strategy guide and it is over 400 pages long. The complexity of the Infinity Engine games seems to come from the fact that THACO means negative numbers are better. Since I played the 2nd Edition games BEFORE 3rd Edition games, it is actually Icewind Dale 2 and Neverwinter Nights that seem more complicated to me.
I just mean people are hard on new stuff.
And in this case, lots of stuff they said about Morrowind was either flat out false or applied to Baldur's Gate as well. Like claiming that all NPCs had identical interactions with the player and none had any personality. Never mind that outside of patrolling guards every NPC had a unique name, and never mind that a large number of NPCs in Baldur's Gate were generically named and had the same dialogue for the player. And never mind that many Morrowind NPCs did in fact have unique interactions so they could give quests or provide certain information.
I always feel like fans of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowwind are praising complexity for the sake of complexity. Complicated is not synonymous with good. I feel like oblivion hit the best balance between systems vs. being able to figure them out with without an undue timesink.
I remember when Morrowind was new and I got into arguments with people who insisted that Morrowind was dumbed down and oversimplified compared to Baldur's Gate.
Except, even despite being totally different games, I would argue that Morrowind is far MORE complex than Baldur's Gate is. I have a PDF of the GOTY strategy guide and it is over 400 pages long. The complexity of the Infinity Engine games seems to come from the fact that THACO means negative numbers are better. Since I played the 2nd Edition games BEFORE 3rd Edition games, it is actually Icewind Dale 2 and Neverwinter Nights that seem more complicated to me.
I just mean people are hard on new stuff.
And in this case, lots of stuff they said about Morrowind was either flat out false or applied to Baldur's Gate as well. Like claiming that all NPCs had identical interactions with the player and none had any personality. Never mind that outside of patrolling guards every NPC had a unique name, and never mind that a large number of NPCs in Baldur's Gate were generically named and had the same dialogue for the player. And never mind that many Morrowind NPCs did in fact have unique interactions so they could give quests or provide certain information.
There are alot of dialogue options in Morrowind that are cut and paste, that is certainly true. But most of them are not, as you mention, useless or meaningless. I liken it to Might and Magic VI. Every NPC may not be overly interesting, but they all serve SOME purpose, even if in the end it's a relatively useless purpose depending on your style of play. I think both games served as quite alot of inspiration for MMOs, where every NPC exists in the world for a reason, even if that reason is trivial or marginal.
I definitely put Skyrim on a higher step than Oblivion, even if I like Morrowind the most. Oblivion was just pure badness. I'd rather have a cut down, more pure-ish action game as Skyrim than the awful, mutilated and mangled mess off a system that was Oblivion's. It was just so shorty on every level.
The best memory I have of the Elder Scrolls is gathering all the most important people of Skyrim to some peace conference and shouting them all off the top of High Hrothgar as they leave the place. They all somehow survive and all goes along as if nothing ever happened
I wish the peace conference from Skyrim was longer and much more complicated. International diplomacy is fascinating and you could have done so many cool things with that conference besides trading pre-set territorial concessions with only two options per decision. It's also disappointing that there's no way to fail the quest; showing complete partisanship during the negotiations never backfires; it just triggers some grumbling from the other side.
On my first, and really only lengthy, playthrough of Skyrim I did the civil war before the main quest so never even saw the negotiations. When I finally re-play Skyrim to do the Dragonborn and Dawnguard DLC I'll see about actually seeing it.
I'll probably do my Skyrim run after playing through Oblivion and Daggerfall. I'll also probably use Requiem since I've already put in 193 hours into an un-modded Skyrim lol
One thing I appreciate about Skyrim is the modding community. We get stuff like Apotheosis (well, will get it), Falskaar, Skyrim Beyond, etc. Not to denigrate Oblivion's modders with stuff like Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul revamping the experience from the ground up, just that there seems to be a lot of people motivated to making outright expansion-scale mods.
Comments
Morrowind Calm spell+speechcraft you can pacify most humanoid enemies.
So I had this discussion with a friend about what is good pruning in a TES game and what is just simplification. This is in the context of Morrowind vs Skyrim.
Dividing Mysticism Spells across other schools I'm ok with. It's even stated in TES lore that spells schools are just useful for catagorizing spells and there's nothing innately different between a fireball and soul trap. It's just catagorizing by wizards. So maybe over time these wizards decided Mysticism didn't need to be a whole school anymore.
Removal of Athletics and Acrobatics? Booooo. There's nothing to replace it other than leveling fatigue which just lets you sprint longer. There's nothing to simulate being an acrobatic character and that archetype is simply gone from the game. Less builds = bad.
Removing spell making was a bad move as well. They introduced new spell effects in Skyrim that didn't scale so eventually would stop being useful. Also if you wanted to RP as a Bard like I do then being able to name your spells to be flavorful to the class idea is great. Again, less options = bad.
Removing Tantos, Spears, and other unique weapons, again, is bad. Even if they mechanically work the same as other weapons aesthetic *is* important. It's the difference between a damage spell that burns someone to death vs withering them away. Both are "Deal 30 damage over 10 second." but the flavor is important for realizing a character idea.
Skyrim added dual wielding, awesome! It added a new character archetype but only for the cost of dozens of others!. . .
Also I'm fine with removing durability and turning smithing into crafting your own stuff. That's good! Also smithing lets me say that spellmaking wasn't removed because of balance since if so then smithing wouldn't let you create weapons with infinity +1 damage.
Fast Travel is good, but I wish they also added more RP friendly travel than just the carts between cities. Also there is no incentive to use the cart since fast travel is free. I would say if you use the cart you should get the well rested buff like sleeping in beds (if it actually already does this and I am just unaware then rad!).
The removal of attributes I am semi-ok with. I'm a huge nerd and love attributes and love seeing how they shape a character. I played my fox bard run of Morrowind with low endurance and strength because the character was physically pathetic but had MASSIVE LUCK to make up for it. Their personality was also maxed out as they literally talked their way out of 90% of fights (as using the mentioned calm+speechcraft). Skyrim removing attributes is ok if they want to add that to skills and the magic, health, and stamina bar stuff.
BUT WHERE IS LUCK. Again, by removing stats without compensating you removed an archetype. Luck was AWESOME in Morrowind. It gave you a bonus modifier to every action from attack rolls, to stealth checks, to speechcraft checks. Perfect for a jack-of-all-trades. Like a Bard. *cough*
Factions in Skyrim are bonkers. It's so easy to lead every guild but with some self-imposed restrictions you can avoid this. Except the Bard college. Screw the bard college. Got my hopes up for nothing >_>
Of my like hundreds of hours playing skyrim I remember encountering like 5 speechcraft checks. Speechcraft is awful in Skyrim. Waste of a skill, can be fixed with mods but I'm avoiding talking about mods when comparing the games.
Ok I've ranted enough but basically, for me in particular, Skyrim adds like 2 things at the cost of a bunch of other stuff and thereby is worse for character building. I like Skyrim but given the choice between Morrowind and it I'll play Morrowind.
A lot of people think one game is distinctly better than the others, but very few people think any one of them is bad.
1. Morrowind
2. Skyrim
3. Daggerfall
4. Arena
5. Oblivion
1.Oblivian
2.Morrowind
3.Skyrim
I think Morrowind is too obtuse, but Skyrim goes too far in the other direction. Oblivion certainly has its flaws, but it strikes a good balance between complexity and accessibility.
Oh, and no love for spears. Completely uneccesary to cut from the game. I like spears.
1. Decreases the impact of levels on enemy strength (gaining levels is always a net gain for the player, even if you don't do it efficiently)
2. Dungeon difficulty increases the further away you are from the nearest town (a nearby cave is easy to tackle, while a distant fortress is extremely dangerous)
3. Increases the strength of average enemies (you can't mow stuff down at level 1 anymore; a single enemy humanoid is a serious threat)
4. Increases the number of enemies to increase the intensity of combat
5. Decreases the rate at which certain skills increase (which balances out the increased intensity of fights and doesn't reward grinding as much)
6. Gives enemies potions, new spells, and other things to make fighting them a little more complex
7. Adds new content (spells, items, critters) in various places
Overall, the game is more difficult (which you can fix with the difficulty slider if you want), more complex, more intense, more balanced, and rewards instead of punishes the player for gaining levels. It doesn't change the nature of Oblivion gameplay; it just makes things more interesting and rewarding.
And in this case, lots of stuff they said about Morrowind was either flat out false or applied to Baldur's Gate as well. Like claiming that all NPCs had identical interactions with the player and none had any personality. Never mind that outside of patrolling guards every NPC had a unique name, and never mind that a large number of NPCs in Baldur's Gate were generically named and had the same dialogue for the player. And never mind that many Morrowind NPCs did in fact have unique interactions so they could give quests or provide certain information.
I'll probably do my Skyrim run after playing through Oblivion and Daggerfall. I'll also probably use Requiem since I've already put in 193 hours into an un-modded Skyrim lol