Like when my Christian friends call someone a religious bigot, I know they are saying that said person is specifically a bigot. If an atheist friend calls someone a religious bigot, I automatically assume they are probably trying to hop on the "all religious folks are hypocritical douches" bandwagon.
Not to derail things further or anything but.... Have you considered that you just live nearby to a lot of religious bigots?
They're everywhere man. Lots of people are bigots. Lots of people follow a religious creed, and as such a good few of them will be bigots. It's just yet another avenue to exercise their bigotry, just like anything else. As far as your geographical question goes however, not so much actually I've been really surprised with how few religious bigots I've met.
I mostly see them on the internet. And then the backlash of folks then labeling all religious people as bigots. It's funny how they think they're above them ... when in reality they're likely being just as judgemental. Food for thought.
Okay, this has bothered me in this thread since I first read it, but, guys and gals... just because someone has a low IQ does not mean they would be disinterested in sex. I have a friend named Cindy who is in her early/middle 20's, who has an IQ of about 75, and she had a boyfriend, and let me tell you, she was *VERY* interested in not only sex, but in having it often. Her mom kept a strict eye on her so that she wouldn't do it out of wedlock, but don't assume that just because someone has a low (er) intelligence, it means they will approach life like a eunuch. Neither did it turn her into an easy lay. She was no more "sex mad" than any other young woman of that age.
I just want to caution you that just because you think someone wouldn't/shouldn't be interested in sex because of low IQ or mental retardation (or whatever you want to call it), doesn't mean it will actually be that way in real life. Incidentally, one of Cindy's brothers is even worse off than she is when it comes to IQ, and he spent a great deal of time "Polishing his knob", so to speak. Let's face it- sex feels good, and you don't have to have a really high IQ (or even a "normal" IQ) to realize that.
Low IQ doesn't mean lack of interest in sex, otherwise cheerleaders would not be able to make sex, and we know that's just the contrary:)! Kidding in the last statement (besides it being a truth).
This probally started after my statement here about the need of a minimum of inteligence to be gay, and then a little truth was used to simulate a bigger truth... and people finshed thinking minsc can't make sex.
But now serious, i raised this argument on low IQ being unable to be actively gay solely based on my own perception of natural/unatural that people here is already tired of hearing about.
If gay is something unnatural (while it's normal and common on the actual society), and ONLY taking as a fact this idea, a low IQ person, even if he/she has gay feelings, can't work that idea, he's unable to actively understand himself/herself as a gay.
Being something unnatural you need to perceive and understand what you are and what you want, basic procreation instinct doesn't impulse you for those desires, and with the pressure of the society in the basic idea of family and tradition, people without a minimum level of IQ would not be able to understand and express themself, most would be forever closeted.
Ps: If you don't take in account my opinion of natural/unnatural or if you disagree with it, the whole talk about inteligence and gay relations shouldn't bother you as if you reject the core of my argument all the rest lost perspective. In this case just ignore this statement about inteligence and gay relations.
I've never thought of Minsc as necessarily having a low IQ, in fact when he speaks for Boo he's actually pretty wise and insightful; I did read a theory somewhere that Boo is actually the vessel for Minsc's psyche, his essence, or alternatively, since his bang on the head the only way Minsc can access that higher functioning part of his mind is to channel it through an imaginary construct, a construct which eventually became Boo.
So despite the suggestion that he wasn't always as he is now, & FWIW I think he's straight, I have to agree with @belgarathmth regarding Minsc's childlike portrayal, which is why I find associating anything overtly sexual with him quite icky TBH.
As a fun thread though some of the comments made me giggle.
@Kamulzin A person with a low IQ can't understand who they are attracted to? Huh? A person with a low IQ may not know the meaning of the word "gay" or "Homosexual", but they can understand that they like other boys (or other girls) in a sexual way, and articulate that.
Homosexuality is even a common part of the animal kingdom, can't se how they can be reflective about doing an 'unnatural act', yet it happens. In nature.
@LadyRhian, I don't think that anyone has argued that a low IQ, or, more specifically, some kind of mental impairment or developmental disability, would stop a person from having a sex drive. Rather, the moral issue is whether that person can give informed consent, and fully understand the potential consequences of having sexual relations.
There is a strong danger of committing the moral equivalent of statutory rape if a fully functional person chooses to engage an impaired person in sexual relations, no matter how that person might insist that they want such relations.
Even though this thread was meant as a joke, it touches on too many serious issues that deserve serious consideration to be a very good thread for humor.
I've tried to lighten up my attitude toward the whole thing, but, I don't know, this thread is just nagging at my conscience and creating a bad taste in my mouth.
I think we should leave Minsc alone, and enjoy him for the strong warrior, valued companion, and loyal friend that he is. Sexualizing him just seems wrong to me.
The thing is... I was attracted to Minsc, far more than Anomen (yes, I know you feel differently, but Anomen was such a jerk, I had difficulty overcoming that first horrible impression he made on me.) He never seemed so mentally childlike as for me to feel icky about having a possible romance with him. In fact, I honestly would have preferred it.
I think we should leave Minsc alone, and enjoy him for the strong warrior, valued companion, and loyal friend that he is. Sexualizing him just seems wrong to me.
And it should be said, in closing - leave it to a bunch of gamers to take an entirely stupid thread and turn it into a many faceted, deeply intelligent conversation. Hopeless geeks, all of you. My kind of people.
@LadyRhian a person with a low IQ can find dificult in understand what he/she's feeling inside of our society structure, and again, this kind of argument only matter if you even accept the evaluation of natural/unnatural of gay behavior/choice/feelings, if you reject this idea at all, this issue can't even be put to argument as it will be inexistent to you.
as i said before, if the core of this argument (natural/unnatural) is rejected, there's no need to touch the subject anymore. I just raised this again cos i'm pretty sure i was the first in this thread to raise minsc low IQ with incompatibility against gay behavior, and then the issue get a bigger proportion and people start to associate minsc low IQ with an incompatibility to have any kind of relationship (even friendships).
On the subject of Minsc's IQ, from his construction of sentences one should conclude that he had prior to his injury, and continues to have status/post the injury, at least average intelligence. His brain injury appears to have resulted in an apparent delusion that Boo is a miniature giant space hamster (although in the Forgotten Realms something like this is actually possible), and he is sometimes subject to uncontrolled rages specific to combat. So, really, all we can say about his impairment is that he has a fixed delusion and his impulse control is dysregulated when overstimulated in battle. There's actually no indication that his judgment is impaired overall. Despite his head injury he manages to avoid doing inappropriate or stupid things. For example, he can be trusted to scout ahead via stealth, etc. Anyway, he is definitely not mentally retarded. His IQ seems unaffected by the trauma to his brain.
@Kamuizin I think you know my position on that by now, and that of the Realms themselves, as well. (Just to recap for others- I see nothing evil or unnatural about Homosxuality, and in the Realms it is accepted as just another choice- this according to Ed Greenwood, creator of the Realms).
@Lemernis That's the way I feel about Minsc as well. He's still got his intelligence, more or less, but what really suffered is his Wisdom (a 6 as I remember it), which can be read as either extremely naive (which is not borne out by the way his character is presented) or super-impulsive and jumps in with both feet without looking (which would be far more true to the character as portrayed in the game and his sound files). Which could mean different things in a romance. He could offer comfort (in a more or less comradely fashion), and then end up losing his heart without meaning to. Or inadvertantly hurt CHARNAME when he realizes that you are reading more into the relationship than he meant. But I think his innate goodness would make him "step up to the plate" as it were, if that were to happen.
The thing is... I was attracted to Minsc, far more than Anomen (yes, I know you feel differently, but Anomen was such a jerk, I had difficulty overcoming that first horrible impression he made on me.) He never seemed so mentally childlike as for me to feel icky about having a possible romance with him. In fact, I honestly would have preferred it.
TBH I can understand this too; as a character he has many admirable and attractive qualities - loyalty, caring, bravery, sweetness and a fierce protective streak - which are more immediately obvious than Anomen's* and he's a pretty handsome fella to boot (especially in his BGI portrait, which I think is "Just ducky" ) In fact they're just the sort of qualities I fell for in my RL OH, right down to the bald head. But from a romance POV I struggle with it because whilst he's all those things he lacks worldliness, for want of a better word, maybe if part of the romance plot involved restoring that part of him I could go with it, but then would he stop being Minsc?
*As a character & romance I love Ano, but the first time around I had to work at it and it helped to roleplay a degree of hidden depths with him.
EDIT: & I suppose you could argue that in his own way Anomen lacks worldliness too, but he compensates for it in a different way.
Ugh, don't get me started on that gay romance thread, reading through it I found all that certain individuals were saying mildly annoying, especially the nonsense about Buddhism.
@LadyRhian Nobody can blame you for being attracted to Minsc; he has a face that the ladies love! And Boo too!
@LadyRhian, @BaldursCat, @Lemeris, hmm, thanks. You've given me a new way to think about Minsc. I may change my opinion/interpretation of him based on your influence. I guess he could be seen as a pretty sexy guy if you interpret him the way y'all do. I certainly admire his physical strength and his fun-loving nature.
One of the great things about the cast of characters in BG, as @Shandyr has pointed out, is that they all have the seeds of great character development and acting, but the finer details are left to the player's imagination, such that various individual players can enjoy their own interpretations freely.
@Belgarathmth Here's what I liked about Minsc: He's loyal, he's cheerful and never lets life get him down (i know there is a romance Mod for Xan out there somewhere and my first thought to that one was in Xan's voice- "This romance is DOOMed..." I think I'd find Xan depressing and wearing on the spirit/soul. And Minsc is kind of the opposite of that.) He's always ready to back you up and he's sweet and protective towards Dynaheir (and presumably those he esteems/loves/cares for). And he's big and strong, and never seems to resent people who are smarter than he is. He doesn't have to be on top but seems content with sharing your life and adventures. He's like one of those huge dogs as a puppy. He'll follow you everywhere as long as you treat him right and take care of him. But if someone tries to hurt you, he'll be there. And yeah, he's handsome- and he's gentle. He's a big strong guy who manages to keep a hamster alive while "butt-kicking for goodness!"
And then there are some of his lines: "Oh, such a glorious death in battle for Minsc and Boo! We were well on our way to the great fields and halls of Rashemen, but we felt you needing us, so we came!" and "There be safety in numbers and I am two or three at least."
It gives me warm fuzzies inside, and I am very sure that ISN'T Boo.
#Shandyr Sometimes, I just want to lie back, cradled in Minsc's big strong arms the way he holds Boo... gently and lovingly. I can see it- I can almost feel it, and his strength and gentleness is what attracts me. Even if he's the equivalent of a St. Bernard Puppy, and just as enthusiastic.
I wonder how you people feel about Minsc's relation to Dynaheir. I've seen mentions of him loving her. And I agree Minsc loves Dynaheir, but not in the romantic sense. I see it more like a squire loves his knight, someone he serves and looks up to, but also feels a deep bromantic affection for. Asymmetrical in Minsc's case, because Minsc will never become a witch and a squire will eventually become a knight. But that kind of dedication. How do you all see the relationship between Minsc and Dynaheir?
@Son_of_Imoen Pretty much that, yes. For a chaotic kinda guy, Minsc is incredibly devoted and loyal to his witches (and now I need to make a meme), almost paternally so towards Aerie, whilst as you said, more as a loyal vassal loves their liege towards Dynaheir, which is appropriate considering Rashemi culture.
Comments
I mostly see them on the internet. And then the backlash of folks then labeling all religious people as bigots. It's funny how they think they're above them ... when in reality they're likely being just as judgemental. Food for thought.
I just want to caution you that just because you think someone wouldn't/shouldn't be interested in sex because of low IQ or mental retardation (or whatever you want to call it), doesn't mean it will actually be that way in real life. Incidentally, one of Cindy's brothers is even worse off than she is when it comes to IQ, and he spent a great deal of time "Polishing his knob", so to speak. Let's face it- sex feels good, and you don't have to have a really high IQ (or even a "normal" IQ) to realize that.
This probally started after my statement here about the need of a minimum of inteligence to be gay, and then a little truth was used to simulate a bigger truth... and people finshed thinking minsc can't make sex.
But now serious, i raised this argument on low IQ being unable to be actively gay solely based on my own perception of natural/unatural that people here is already tired of hearing about.
If gay is something unnatural (while it's normal and common on the actual society), and ONLY taking as a fact this idea, a low IQ person, even if he/she has gay feelings, can't work that idea, he's unable to actively understand himself/herself as a gay.
Being something unnatural you need to perceive and understand what you are and what you want, basic procreation instinct doesn't impulse you for those desires, and with the pressure of the society in the basic idea of family and tradition, people without a minimum level of IQ would not be able to understand and express themself, most would be forever closeted.
Ps: If you don't take in account my opinion of natural/unnatural or if you disagree with it, the whole talk about inteligence and gay relations shouldn't bother you as if you reject the core of my argument all the rest lost perspective. In this case just ignore this statement about inteligence and gay relations.
So despite the suggestion that he wasn't always as he is now, & FWIW I think he's straight, I have to agree with @belgarathmth regarding Minsc's childlike portrayal, which is why I find associating anything overtly sexual with him quite icky TBH.
As a fun thread though some of the comments made me giggle.
But indeed, it's a tiring debate.
There is a strong danger of committing the moral equivalent of statutory rape if a fully functional person chooses to engage an impaired person in sexual relations, no matter how that person might insist that they want such relations.
Even though this thread was meant as a joke, it touches on too many serious issues that deserve serious consideration to be a very good thread for humor.
I've tried to lighten up my attitude toward the whole thing, but, I don't know, this thread is just nagging at my conscience and creating a bad taste in my mouth.
I think we should leave Minsc alone, and enjoy him for the strong warrior, valued companion, and loyal friend that he is. Sexualizing him just seems wrong to me.
And it should be said, in closing - leave it to a bunch of gamers to take an entirely stupid thread and turn it into a many faceted, deeply intelligent conversation.
Hopeless geeks, all of you. My kind of people.
as i said before, if the core of this argument (natural/unnatural) is rejected, there's no need to touch the subject anymore. I just raised this again cos i'm pretty sure i was the first in this thread to raise minsc low IQ with incompatibility against gay behavior, and then the issue get a bigger proportion and people start to associate minsc low IQ with an incompatibility to have any kind of relationship (even friendships).
Boo never squeaks of it...
Pleeeeeeaaaaase can we have the game realeased now?
@Lemernis That's the way I feel about Minsc as well. He's still got his intelligence, more or less, but what really suffered is his Wisdom (a 6 as I remember it), which can be read as either extremely naive (which is not borne out by the way his character is presented) or super-impulsive and jumps in with both feet without looking (which would be far more true to the character as portrayed in the game and his sound files). Which could mean different things in a romance.
*As a character & romance I love Ano, but the first time around I had to work at it and it helped to roleplay a degree of hidden depths with him.
EDIT: & I suppose you could argue that in his own way Anomen lacks worldliness too, but he compensates for it in a different way.
@LadyRhian Nobody can blame you for being attracted to Minsc; he has a face that the ladies love! And Boo too!
One of the great things about the cast of characters in BG, as @Shandyr has pointed out, is that they all have the seeds of great character development and acting, but the finer details are left to the player's imagination, such that various individual players can enjoy their own interpretations freely.
And then there are some of his lines: "Oh, such a glorious death in battle for Minsc and Boo! We were well on our way to the great fields and halls of Rashemen, but we felt you needing us, so we came!" and "There be safety in numbers and I am two or three at least."
It gives me warm fuzzies inside, and I am very sure that ISN'T Boo.