A Lawful character is someone who is predictable, true to their word, and mindful of their duties
and this is a reason why the charnames should be scared to have a LE agent of thay in their parties, if they know a little about the thay way to run politics.
if with a vampire in the party my charnames would be worried about their necks when they sleep, with him they would be worried about to who really goes his loyalty day and night, all time long
Let me throw out the possibility of a Spy, working for the government.
yep, i agree.
my previous example, robin hood, was a good example of how a thief can be good , while being chaotic.
but james bond is an as good example of how a thief rogue, can be good and lawful.
and stressing a little more this concept i would also say that a druid should be neutral (as not good or evil) as he believes in balance, see the scope of goodness and evilness and want a balance between them instead of one of those prevailing.
but there is no reason why he should be only neutral in the other meaning of the word, as he, depending on his particular personality, can be more chaotic or more lawful in the way he pursues the balance between good and evil.
he is a nature follower, and nature itself is sometimes very chaotic and other times very predictable. following his inner nature he can see himself more as a chaotic agent of the nature or a "lawful" predictable one, as nature try always to find a balance (see the lemmings and their mass suicide when the population grows too much), even when that balance is reached in a very chaotic way, like the one that caused the extintion of the big reptiles bringing the dominance of the mammals.
or he can feel more lawful trying to balance at a different level, more focused to preserve the actual balance instead of working for a new, maybe completely different, one.
Exactly! The ethical (law/chaos) branch is more an indication of how the person wishes to seen. They may fall on the wrong side of the law, but are generally trustworthy. A crime boss, for example, that's LE will tend to keep his word(a deal is a deal) but that doesn't mean your safe from them. "I said I wouldn't kill you. I have goons for that." Alignment isn't an absolute indicator of a character's actions.
Also...there should be no game reason a rogue can't be LG, though many games won't allow it.
This discussion reminds me of something that happened in a tabletop game a long time ago. The group just met the evil villain they had been fighting for a long time with a kid on his lap in a tavern located in a small village, singing songs for the kid to sleep. The kid was his grandson by the way and had no idea his grandfather was an evil overlord as the group found out later.
The group wanted to attack and finish the villain there when he had no minions to protect him but the group's paladin stopped them and argued that that small display of kindness could be an indication the villain could still be redeemed.
Later in that campaign they ended up fighting side by side with that villain against an even greater danger from the outer planes and although the villain never became "good" he ended up becoming a fair ruler.
My point being a lawful stupid paladin would have attacked and even risked to kill the child.
More just dungeons and dragons in general, but it's funny that the Wisdom stat is both judgement ability and perceptive ability.
"The sage understanding of the universe of an old scholar, and good eyesight, these are the same thing, right? Like if you have one, you obviously have the other."
More just dungeons and dragons in general, but it's funny that the Wisdom stat is both judgement ability and perceptive ability.
"The sage understanding of the universe of an old scholar, and good eyesight, these are the same thing, right? Like if you have one, you obviously have the other."
Perception isn't good eyesight. Its how well you recognize details or pick up on small inconsitencsies. A person could have perfect eyesight, yet fail to notice trail sign of a grizzly bear. A person can be blind, but pick out an inconsitency in someone's story or speech pattern when they are lying.
Perception is just the ability to pick up on small details that others miss. Good eyesight would help, yes, but they are not intertwined.
Perception is both. I was obviously over-simplifying things for humor's sake, in the spirit of the thread, but to say Perception doesn't encompass the senses at all is just false.
Perception is both. I was obviously over-simplifying things for humor's sake, in the spirit of the thread, but to say Perception doesn't encompass the senses at all is just false.
@Chronciler , I don't think that's quite right, because if we say someone is "perceptive", we don't mean they have good eyesight or sharp hearing. We mean that they are insightful.
From the 5E Handbook. It clearly states that perception encompasses "The Keenness of the Senses". I don't know why we're arguing as if words have 1 definition, or DnD Stats only encompass one thing.
From the 5E Handbook. It clearly states that perception encompasses "The Keenness of the Senses". I don't know why we're arguing as if words have 1 definition, or DnD Stats only encompass one thing.
A perceptive person will notice things more often than others.
Percieving something is act of doing it.
They are linked but not identical definitions.
A runner is not the same thing as running. One is simply the act of doing it.
From the 5E Handbook. It clearly states that perception encompasses "The Keenness of the Senses". I don't know why we're arguing as if words have 1 definition, or DnD Stats only encompass one thing.
A perceptive person will notice things more often than others.
Percieving something is act of doing it.
They are linked but not identical definitions.
A runner is not the same thing as running. One is simply the act of doing it.
You're literally just arguing with the player's handbook now. Wisdom influences the "Keenness of the senses". Their exact words. If you want to interpret it as exclusively a matter of observational skills then that's just your homebrew rules. You're welcome to it but my joke was valid.
@Chronicler , isn't "keenness of the senses" just another way to say the person with keen senses notices more than other people? Even the direct quote from the player's handbook is open to interpretation. It's not a black and white, either-or issue. There is an ineffable quality to wisdom that people have trouble defining or agreeing about.
We know intuitively the difference between a wise person and a foolish person, but ask for a quantitative definition, and most of us (the wise among us, anyway) have to admit we can't quantify it.
You're literally now trying to argue that "The Keenness of the senses" doesn't refer to your senses literally being keen, but rather was meant only as a euphamism for keen observational skills?
From the 5E Handbook. It clearly states that perception encompasses "The Keenness of the Senses". I don't know why we're arguing as if words have 1 definition, or DnD Stats only encompass one thing.
A perceptive person will notice things more often than others.
You're literally now trying to argue that "The Keenness of the senses" doesn't refer to your senses literally being keen, but rather was meant only as a euphamism for keen observational skills?
How deep does the rabbit hole go here?
I thought we were talking about perception. Have we changed terms and I didn't notice?
You're literally now trying to argue that "The Keenness of the senses" doesn't refer to your senses literally being keen, but rather was meant only as a euphamism for keen observational skills?
How deep does the rabbit hole go here?
I thought we were talking about perception. Have we changed terms and I didn't notice?
Did you read the photo I posted in that comment you replied to? Of the player's hand book. That defined Wisdom as encompassing Perception, and Perception as encompassing "The Keenness of the Senses?"
If you skipped over that photo it would explain a lot.
to mod a duck swarm arcane spell designed to counter the druid's insect plague and insect swarm would be glorious
That seems like it could get into "Old Lady who Swallowed the Fly" territory really fast.
She unleashed a swarm of Rhinoceroses to catch the Ministers to catch the Goats to catch the Dogs to catch The Cats to catch the Ducks to catch the Spiders to catch the Locusts. I don't know why she unleashed all those Locusts.
to mod a duck swarm arcane spell designed to counter the druid's insect plague and insect swarm would be glorious
That seems like it could get into "Old Lady who Swallowed the Fly" territory really fast.
She unleashed a swarm of Rhinoceroses to catch the Ministers to catch the Goats to catch the Dogs to catch The Cats to catch the Ducks to catch the Spiders to catch the Locusts. I don't know why she unleashed all those Locusts.
@Chronicler Looks like according to that screen shot, perception is, "Your general awareness of your surroundings AND the keeness of your senses."
So according to the manual, awareness and how sharp your senses are both different things. Perception overlaps with both, but they are listed separately, which is EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. (caps for emphasis, not volume. I'm not yelling.)
@Chronicler Looks like according to that screen shot, perception is, "Your general awareness of your surroundings AND the keeness of your senses."
So according to the manual, awareness and how sharp your senses are both different things. Perception overlaps with both, but they are listed separately, which is EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. (caps for emphasis, not volume. I'm not yelling.)
I've been saying it's both.
I've been consistently saying it's both. Look through my posts. Almost every one of them has some variant of "Both are a part of it" or "Why are we arguing as if the stat only does one thing"
You were the one who came in to correct me when I listed "Good Eyesight" as a quality of wisdom, insisting that Good Eyesight was not encompassed within wisdom, only observational skills.
I'm gonna be honest, this has been an incredibly frustrating conversation.
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https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/edd-lais-stories/fighting-the-evil-how-to-be-a-mind-reaver-part-14/viewer?title_no=301213&episode_no=61
if with a vampire in the party my charnames would be worried about their necks when they sleep, with him they would be worried about to who really goes his loyalty day and night, all time long
yep, i agree.
my previous example, robin hood, was a good example of how a thief can be good , while being chaotic.
but james bond is an as good example of how a thief rogue, can be good and lawful.
and stressing a little more this concept i would also say that a druid should be neutral (as not good or evil) as he believes in balance, see the scope of goodness and evilness and want a balance between them instead of one of those prevailing.
but there is no reason why he should be only neutral in the other meaning of the word, as he, depending on his particular personality, can be more chaotic or more lawful in the way he pursues the balance between good and evil.
he is a nature follower, and nature itself is sometimes very chaotic and other times very predictable. following his inner nature he can see himself more as a chaotic agent of the nature or a "lawful" predictable one, as nature try always to find a balance (see the lemmings and their mass suicide when the population grows too much), even when that balance is reached in a very chaotic way, like the one that caused the extintion of the big reptiles bringing the dominance of the mammals.
or he can feel more lawful trying to balance at a different level, more focused to preserve the actual balance instead of working for a new, maybe completely different, one.
Also...there should be no game reason a rogue can't be LG, though many games won't allow it.
The group wanted to attack and finish the villain there when he had no minions to protect him but the group's paladin stopped them and argued that that small display of kindness could be an indication the villain could still be redeemed.
Later in that campaign they ended up fighting side by side with that villain against an even greater danger from the outer planes and although the villain never became "good" he ended up becoming a fair ruler.
My point being a lawful stupid paladin would have attacked and even risked to kill the child.
"The sage understanding of the universe of an old scholar, and good eyesight, these are the same thing, right? Like if you have one, you obviously have the other."
Perception isn't good eyesight. Its how well you recognize details or pick up on small inconsitencsies. A person could have perfect eyesight, yet fail to notice trail sign of a grizzly bear. A person can be blind, but pick out an inconsitency in someone's story or speech pattern when they are lying.
Perception is just the ability to pick up on small details that others miss. Good eyesight would help, yes, but they are not intertwined.
They overlap, but are not synonymous.
Perceptive ability can encompass Sherlock Holmes esque observational skills, but to perceive something and to see something are literally synonyms.
One of my mods does add new Elminster's Ecologies books to Baldur's Gate 1, giving details on various creatures in the game.
....
Locusts: Pesky little buggers who will eat all your plants, a good defense is the Duck if you can find one.
A perceptive person will notice things more often than others.
Percieving something is act of doing it.
They are linked but not identical definitions.
A runner is not the same thing as running. One is simply the act of doing it.
You're literally just arguing with the player's handbook now. Wisdom influences the "Keenness of the senses". Their exact words. If you want to interpret it as exclusively a matter of observational skills then that's just your homebrew rules. You're welcome to it but my joke was valid.
We know intuitively the difference between a wise person and a foolish person, but ask for a quantitative definition, and most of us (the wise among us, anyway) have to admit we can't quantify it.
How deep does the rabbit hole go here?
I perceived that you misspelled perceive...
I thought we were talking about perception. Have we changed terms and I didn't notice?
Did you read the photo I posted in that comment you replied to? Of the player's hand book. That defined Wisdom as encompassing Perception, and Perception as encompassing "The Keenness of the Senses?"
If you skipped over that photo it would explain a lot.
Is this better?
to mod a duck swarm arcane spell designed to counter the druid's insect plague and insect swarm would be glorious
That seems like it could get into "Old Lady who Swallowed the Fly" territory really fast.
She unleashed a swarm of Rhinoceroses to catch the Ministers to catch the Goats to catch the Dogs to catch The Cats to catch the Ducks to catch the Spiders to catch the Locusts. I don't know why she unleashed all those Locusts.
I guess she'll die...
So according to the manual, awareness and how sharp your senses are both different things. Perception overlaps with both, but they are listed separately, which is EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING. (caps for emphasis, not volume. I'm not yelling.)
I've been saying it's both.
I've been consistently saying it's both. Look through my posts. Almost every one of them has some variant of "Both are a part of it" or "Why are we arguing as if the stat only does one thing"
You were the one who came in to correct me when I listed "Good Eyesight" as a quality of wisdom, insisting that Good Eyesight was not encompassed within wisdom, only observational skills.
I'm gonna be honest, this has been an incredibly frustrating conversation.