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Baldur's Gate Logic

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  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited December 2019
    Skatan wrote: »

    I'd take pants and a shirt/jacket every day of the week over a robe.
    personal taste, and every taste is fine.
    but even being a male i used to wear a garment skirt or a lungi as i like the air running free around my legs.
    also in many hot parts of the world, like the north part of africa and the arab region people wear something similar to a robe, because it is more effective to protect against the sun and hot weather then pants and shirt. if is cold you can use the same robe over some other cloths.

    further more there are no shirts of vecna or of the archmage, and i was comparing a robe to a full plate, not to paints and shirt that give no protection against physical attacks at all...

  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,512
    Chronicler wrote: »
    I have to imagine you wear the robe over the pants, shirt, etc anyway.

    It's not like we're left to imagine that fighters are naked under their armor. Monks aren't running around nude simply because they wear neither armor nor robe. The equipment you wear for battle goes on over your clothes.

    With the exception of Minsc. That's why he always suffers from "a bad case of armor chafe".

    I suppose that people who find a robe over clothes unbearably hot don't live in the same climate zone as I do.

    Maybe enchanted full plate is so comfortable that you can sleep, hike, run and swim in it. Better than Stoneskin, anyway.

  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,271
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Skatan wrote: »

    I'd take pants and a shirt/jacket every day of the week over a robe.
    personal taste, and every taste is fine.
    but even being a male i used to wear a garment skirt or a lungi as i like the air running free around my legs.
    also in many hot parts of the world, like the north part of africa and the arab region people wear something similar to a robe, because it is more effective to protect against the sun and hot weather then pants and shirt. if is cold you can use the same robe over some other cloths.

    further more there are no shirts of vecna or of the archmage, and i was comparing a robe to a full plate, not to paints and shirt that give no protection against physical attacks at all...

    Yeah I know you did and my comment was more generally meant rather than a direct comment towards yours, sorry if it came out the wrong way. It's just always a bit interesting to see the old trope of robes being considered better for dexterous motions (ie not restricting movement) when long, flowy robes get in the way a lot more than tailored clothing. And if you can magically enhance a robe to give boons, you could most certainly also magically enhance other types of cloth, hence why I'd rather have a pair of pants with improved alacrity and a nice shirt or jacket. At least the sleeves of my jacket won't get in my way.

    Same with jedis, their robes often look a lot more restricting than the opposite. It's just a bit of pokey poke towards that old trope.

    gorgonzolaProont
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 304
    Robes don't restrict movement in any way. They are loose and flowing garments. They do, however, cause destruction around you if your not careful. Clearing low tables and the like with a single pass. I've knocked coffee cups over on more than one occasion.

    gorgonzolaProontmlnevese
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    Page 70: The one about clothing mechanics.
    maybe the next page can be "bg logic and sex"
    a starting point can be what happens if your wild mage charname has been transformed into a bunny by a surge right before the rest when sex happens between him and aerie or viconia?
    i am sure that the avariel will find him really cute and be very pleased, but i wonder what can be the reaction of the drow... ;)

    and how long will be the ears of aerie's son? the elves have long pointed ears, but if the father is a rabbit probably quayle's ears should be hilariously long :D

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,208
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    maybe the next page can be "bg logic and sex"
    a starting point can be what happens if your wild mage charname has been transformed into a bunny by a surge right before the rest when sex happens between him and aerie or viconia?
    i am sure that the avariel will find him really cute and be very pleased, but i wonder what can be the reaction of the drow... ;)

    and how long will be the ears of aerie's son? the elves have long pointed ears, but if the father is a rabbit probably quayle's ears should be hilariously long :D

    Usually in such scenarios, it does not matter. The traits for the child are drawn from the parent's true form rather than whatever it was polymorphed into. This is how half-dragons still wind up being half-dragon despite the draconic partner usually polymorphing into a form more suitable for the non-draconic partner during mating.

    Of course, if you and your druid partner decide to get creative and make use of your Wild Shape during sex... Well, whatever two consenting D&D adults get up to in the wilderness is none of my affair. ;)

    gorgonzolaProont
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,798
    edited December 2019
    Zaxares wrote: »

    Of course, if you and your druid partner decide to get creative and make use of your Wild Shape during sex... Well, whatever two consenting D&D adults get up to in the wilderness is none of my affair. ;)

    To go at it like rabbits can finally become literally true.

    gorgonzolaProont
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    buddies we are still at page 70, let's stick to clothing for now, my suggestion is for the next page theme...

  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,106
    Skatan wrote: »
    Maybe we need to create a new thread called Baldur's Gate Logic Thread Logic where we discuss the illogicalities in the Baldur's Gate Logic thread and roll our eyes.

    I think this would create an infinite loop and cause an overflow on the forum databases... :)

    SkatanProontArtona
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,238
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/77875/zaram-maldovars-only-day-of-christmas-board-3-christmas-on-infinite-earths/p1

    Put on your Santa hats and ugly Christmas sweaters and come join me on this year's Christmas board. Don't forget to grab a cup of virtual hot cocoa on the way out.

  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,512
    shabadoo wrote: »
    Robes don't restrict movement in any way. They are loose and flowing garments. They do, however, cause destruction around you if your not careful. Clearing low tables and the like with a single pass. I've knocked coffee cups over on more than one occasion.

    @shabadoo , are you a priest?

    gorgonzola
  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 304
    @Arvia, nope not a priest. Just delusions of "Heff"dom. A robe is my covering of choice when at home.

    gorgonzolaProontArvia
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,238
    @OlvynChuru
    Either every librarian is a history buff or a magical 5th Dimensional Imp likes putting history books everywhere to screw with folks.

    gorgonzolaThacoBellProont
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    or maybe the developers did so to let the players that are not familiar with pnp or the novels to grasp some lore about the fr.
    if that was their purpose they failed with me as i never read those history books, i don't care of the official fr lore at all and i rp the game using a very generic medieval-fantasy lore, mostly based on my tolkien readings.
    when i feel to rp as some times i feel to go all the way towards the pg aspect of the games.

    also it is probably much easier to write (boring) history books then interesting novels, i mean if an author has great ideas about material that can become a novel he probably actually writes a real novel in the real world instead of wasting those great plots to write in game books that will give him no glory and money as writer and that probably a lot of players would skip anyway.

    imo the most interesting book in the game is the infinite spells one, is the book that i always want to get in my playtrough, even if is not found in a library.

    about books i would have liked if the book that has the description of the new monsters in wk would not be in almost every container there.
    to have a single copy in the lev 1 library, hidden between many history books would have made the game more challenging for those players that are not already spoiled, they would have to be smart and find out that that particular book is actually useful or to find out themselves by trial and error how to face those new monsters.

    ZaramMaldovar
  • MaurvirMaurvir Member Posts: 922
    One of the (seemingly) lesser known features of The Elder Scrolls games was that the developers DID include real tales among the books. They would tantalizingly break the story into multiple volumes, and only put one volume in a place. They weren't super long, but it was a neat reward for reading every book or scroll you came across.

    ProontgorgonzolaThacoBellZaramMaldovar
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    It seems kind of weird to me that thieves can be lawful, and they can be good, but they can't be lawful good.

    It seems to just be base on the idea that lawful good is the goodest good.

    ThacoBellProontZaramMaldovar
  • jmerryjmerry Member Posts: 1,502
    Why only history books? Because that's all the game's writers thought of writing. There should be other books - for example, shouldn't temples offer the holy book that teaches the way of their god? Just a glance at earthly history tells us that people would be interested in distributing those as widely as possible.
    Or, how about some of the regular volumes of "Elminster's Ecologies" - you know, information on more common creatures like wolves or kobolds.
    We might even squeeze a little fiction in, but that's harder to make convincing.

    There's a mod idea in there - more variety in books. It would take quite a bit of writing effort, though.

    gorgonzolaProont
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,678
    edited February 2020
    @Chronicler
    it don't seems so weird to me.
    let's take robin hood as an example, he is good oriented, he fights against a tyrant, he stoles from the (too) rich to give to the poor.
    he pursues goodness, but the way he does it is certainly not a legal one, not only because he is an outlaw, as every one that fights against a tyrant becomes outlaw by default, but because he does not fight against the social inequality inside the boundaries of the law, he does it stealing.
    he is a good example of a CG thief.

    imo is not that LG is the goodiest good, sometimes like when keldorn decides to attack and kill viconia only for the reason that she is a drow and a shar worshiper, forgetting that a change from the evil and power thirsty lolith worshiper she was is happening. a change that can maybe lead her to change her alignment. and that in the time she was in the party she was a valuable and loyal companion.
    sometimes LG can be the dumbest way to be legal, not the goodest.

    to be legal, neutral or cahotic somehow reflects how a person is strictly following the laws, of the society he lives in, or dictated by the ethics of the group he join in, and this is true for a paladin joining the radiant hart as well for a drow following the rules of his evil oriented civilization.

    but for a thief is probably not possible to be good and legal at the same time, because to steal is against the rules of the society. he acts outside of the rules, in a chaotic way, weather his hart is good or evil oriented.

  • shabadooshabadoo Member Posts: 304
    A thief being either lawful or good isn't that much of a stretch. Stealing isn't a necessity of the class, "thief" is just how the skill set is viewed. Robin Hood is the easiest way to envision a good thief, but what about a detective? A locksmith would have many of the thief mechanical skills and be lawful. Though the hiding,sneaking, and backstabbing would not be used. Well hiding maybe. A little rework and either would be viable kits.

    gorgonzolaThacoBellProont
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    shabadoo wrote: »
    A thief being either lawful or good isn't that much of a stretch. Stealing isn't a necessity of the class, "thief" is just how the skill set is viewed. Robin Hood is the easiest way to envision a good thief, but what about a detective? A locksmith would have many of the thief mechanical skills and be lawful. Though the hiding,sneaking, and backstabbing would not be used. Well hiding maybe. A little rework and either would be viable kits.

    Right, but if they can be lawful, and they can be good, what precisely prevents them from being lawful good?

    It seems to be based on the idea that Lawful Good is the most righteous path, rather than simply the confluence of lawful and good.

    ThacoBellProont
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    @Chronicler
    it don't seems so weird to me.
    let's take robin hood as an example, he is good oriented, he fights against a tyrant, he stoles from the (too) rich to give to the poor.
    he pursues goodness, but the way he does it is certainly not a legal one, not only because he is an outlaw, as every one that fights against a tyrant becomes outlaw by default, but because he does not fight against the social inequality inside the boundaries of the law, he does it stealing.
    he is a good example of a CG thief.

    imo is not that LG is the goodiest good, sometimes like when keldorn decides to attack and kill viconia only for the reason that she is a drow and a shar worshiper, forgetting that a change from the evil and power thirsty lolith worshiper she was is happening. a change that can maybe lead her to change her alignment. and that in the time she was in the party she was a valuable and loyal companion.
    sometimes LG can be the dumbest way to be legal, not the goodest.

    to be legal, neutral or cahotic somehow reflects how a person is strictly following the laws, of the society he lives in, or dictated by the ethics of the group he join in, and this is true for a paladin joining the radiant hart as well for a drow following the rules of his evil oriented civilization.

    but for a thief is probably not possible to be good and legal at the same time, because to steal is against the rules of the society. he acts outside of the rules, in a chaotic way, weather his hart is good or evil oriented.

    What you've made is a case that thieves shouldn't be able to be lawful at all. That as a class based around a classically criminal act, they are fundamentally opposed to rules and order.

    If they couldn't be lawful at all, that would make perfect sense, but to give them the ability to be lawful or good individually, but not together, is where it gets weird.

    gorgonzola
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 1,330
    edited February 2020
    Let me throw out the possibility of a Spy, working for the government.

    There's a commonly accepted scenario where the laws are just, but the government still has need for somebody with a discrete skill set. You might "steal", but only from criminals, or at the very least enemies of the state. You might sneak, backstab even, but only to ensure the safety of your people.

    Let me throw out the possibility of a scout, guiding his military platoon to their destination safely. I'd have to check but I'm pretty sure "Scout" is in the class description as one of the classic archetypes and everything. Admittedly this one would be less big on the "stealing" portion of being a thief, but that's probably why they renamed it to "rogue" in later editions.

    Both are scenarios where Lawful and Good are not in conflict, despite the Law of the Land itself being goodly. And that's to say nothing of characters who draw the "Lawful" portion of their alignment from some sense of order other than the one imposed by the state.

    Edit: Sorry. 3 consecutive posts was probably excessive. I just woke up and got carried away in the moment. If this forum had a "delete post" function I'd delete these and try and sum up my points in a single more succinct statement.

    ProontgorgonzolaMontresor_SP
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,009
    Okay, gotta make a thief detective at some point now.

    ChroniclerProontgorgonzolashabadoo
  • ZaramMaldovarZaramMaldovar Member Posts: 2,238
    Chronicler wrote: »
    It seems kind of weird to me that thieves can be lawful, and they can be good, but they can't be lawful good.

    It seems to just be base on the idea that lawful good is the goodest good.

    This is a very fascinating discussion and I have to agree with many of the points. My point has been pretty much rendered unneccesary because it's really the basis of the discussion but there is no true "Goodest good" or "Evilest Evil" as Law and Chaos are not levels of severity in the matter but extensions of the cardinal direction of morality. The only exception is that True Neutral is most certainly the neutralist neutral.

    Son_of_ImoenThacoBellProontshabadoo
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