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BG2-Do you side with Bodhi or the Shadow Thieves?

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Comments

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,437
    Shadow Thieves
    @semiticgod Being vampires alone means they are serial killers, that should be a HUGE red flag right off the bat. You can also run into vampires atacking thieves in the streets, but if you haven't chosen a side yet, at least one group says that the only reason they don't attack you is because Bodhi has plans for you. The vampires are targeting thieves, but won't hesitate to attack whoever happens to wander by. THere is a very good reason the guards try to stop people from sleeping in the streets.

    semiticgodStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 10,749
    Bodhi and her vampires
    It's never explicitly said that they are vampires, at least before you take sides. You just get some very distinct clues. Even the Shadow Thieves don't tell you the other side is a guild of vampires until after you've paid them--possibly because they don't want you to switch sides out of fear.

    As for RP purposes, one possible justification for siding with Bodhi is to pick the winning team. The Shadow Thieves are badly losing the war, and a selfish, opportunistic, or merely cautious Charname might choose to side with the stronger of two forces, even if it's the greater of two evils. A Charname who's had good experiences with Hexxat might also be inclined to tolerate a little vampirism among their friends. It's also worth pointing out that if you go see Valen first, you might not realize that the Shadow Thieves were reducing their price from 20,000 to 15,000, in which case Charname might side with Bodhi under the impression that it would save money.

    Hell, maybe Charname is a necrophile.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,437
    Shadow Thieves
    @semiticgod Except that the vampires in the street literally turn into bats after they are done with their slaughter. Or turn into gas when "killed". Or only come out at night.

    I'm not saying "no" charname would side with Bodhi, I'm saying no "good" charname would side with Bodhi. Trying to claim Bodhi and the Shadow are equivalent is ridiculous.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,611
    This is why there should be alternatives. And via modding, there are.

  • Artemius_IArtemius_I Member Posts: 2,611
    You cannot have your cake and eat it too. I actually don't use the Alternatives mod specifically because I enjoy the moral quandary the original scenario presents. Alternatives just seems like a convenient opt-out solution to me, not to dismiss the effort on the creator's part. Then again, I rarely play lawful PCs.

    DrakeICN
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,611
    edited July 8
    That's fair enough, but after so many times going with either it is a nice change to go with neither once in a while.

    ThacoBell
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 714
    edited July 8
    I know you can ask the guards and a lot of people in the Government district about the Cowled Wizards and their prisoners. But I would still like some kind of optional quest where you try to work your way through the Athkatlan bureaucracy to solve it all. Only to fail no matter what you do. Just so lawful characters can try to solve it in a legal way and end up realizing that the whole system is corrupt and that the Shadow thieves/vampires are the only way to go.

    The quest could be like the House of Madness from Asterix!

  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,388
    Bodhi and her vampires

    One factor that I don't see being discussed much here is, how did your Charname get along with the Shadow Thieves in BG1?

    If you performed services for them and were duly rewarded, then you would likely be more inclined to work with them again.

    On the other hand, if your last encounter with them looked like this,

    image

    image

    image

    ...then you might be just a wee bit more inclined to side against them.

    ChroniclerZaghoul
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,154
    Shadow Thieves

    You cannot have your cake and eat it too. I actually don't use the Alternatives mod specifically because I enjoy the moral quandary the original scenario presents. Alternatives just seems like a convenient opt-out solution to me, not to dismiss the effort on the creator's part. Then again, I rarely play lawful PCs.

    well i use alternatives only for a time i may want to use it in a run as even then i still side with the shadow thieves.

    i do find the the " i don't care." option that tricks you to the pirate island funny.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,437
    Shadow Thieves
    @SharGuidesMyHand Those aren't shadow thieves in BG1. They are an independent local thieves guild. That being said, there ARE real shadow thieves in BG1. Depending on the path you take to get the invitations from the undercellar, the Shadow Thieves do show up and explain they came north to find out who is framing them for uh, I think its the death of Entar. They show you a back way into the undercellar. So if you recieved their help there, you are probably more inclined to choose them in BG2 as well.

    ChroniclerZaghoulDrakeICN
  • SinaheribSinaherib Member Posts: 13
    Shadow Thieves
    I always side with Shadow Thieves, cause they seem to be lesser evil for me.
    However, like some people mentioned before, it would be good to have several more options. As of Bodhi and vampires - I think I would prefer them to be constant enemies, aligned with Jon. I understand that many things should have been rewritten in that case, but if Charname faced such threat as a vampire guild, trying to hunt him/her down, it would be a very good and understandable motivation for him/her to find Irenicus and finish him once and for all.

  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,611
    edited July 9
    The protagonist can know already from chapter 1 that Irenicus is in league with the vampires, so the most will-not-kill-me ally is the shadow thieves.

    When you meet Bodhi you know immediately that she is too crafty to tell you anything useful about Irenicus or imoen.

    So from a deduction point of view, the thieves are the go-to party.

    ThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,154
    Shadow Thieves
    and if i remember right. the thieves that kidnap you are a rouge group acting outside the main one.

  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 3,058
    Shadow Thieves
    Don't forget Minsc's racial enemy is vampire so he should be pretty adept at sniffing them out (despite his gimped intelligence & wisdom). I would think any party with Minsc included would NOT side with Bodhi.

    ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    Shadow Thieves
    Why exactly was Minsc's racial enemy vampire again? I feel like I used to know that.

    In BG1 it's gnolls, because they abducted Dynaheir, but in BG2 suddenly he's developed a vendetta against vampires, who happen to be a very common and moderately tricky enemy in the new campaign.

    More than a vendetta. He's presumably studied on how to effectively hunt vampires off screen. Since I get the impression there's more to a ranger's racial enemy than "Grr, I sure do hate vampires."

    Zaghoul
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 1,154
    Shadow Thieves
    it's one of the many things sod did not answer.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,437
    Shadow Thieves

    Why exactly was Minsc's racial enemy vampire again? I feel like I used to know that.

    In BG1 it's gnolls, because they abducted Dynaheir, but in BG2 suddenly he's developed a vendetta against vampires, who happen to be a very common and moderately tricky enemy in the new campaign.

    More than a vendetta. He's presumably studied on how to effectively hunt vampires off screen. Since I get the impression there's more to a ranger's racial enemy than "Grr, I sure do hate vampires."

    To make things easier for new players. Minsc fills a crutch character roll in the games. He isn't super specialized in any one roll, but is very flexible with his stats and can fill any combat role well. Vampire racial enemy gives new players an edge against one of the more common difficult enemies of the game.

    semiticgod
  • ZaghoulZaghoul Member, Moderator Posts: 3,165
    I guess one could headcanon Minsc seeing Bodhi with Jonni, and watching her be a witness, or take part in some way regarding Dynaheir's torture and death or whatnot.
    "I don't know who or what that woman is, but she sure do look n talk funny, n give's me n Boo the willies."
    A stretch I know, but as good as any other I reckon. B)

    ThacoBell
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    Shadow Thieves
    ThacoBell said:

    Why exactly was Minsc's racial enemy vampire again? I feel like I used to know that.

    In BG1 it's gnolls, because they abducted Dynaheir, but in BG2 suddenly he's developed a vendetta against vampires, who happen to be a very common and moderately tricky enemy in the new campaign.

    More than a vendetta. He's presumably studied on how to effectively hunt vampires off screen. Since I get the impression there's more to a ranger's racial enemy than "Grr, I sure do hate vampires."

    To make things easier for new players. Minsc fills a crutch character roll in the games. He isn't super specialized in any one roll, but is very flexible with his stats and can fill any combat role well. Vampire racial enemy gives new players an edge against one of the more common difficult enemies of the game.
    His rage ability already provides immunity to level drain. Not sure he needed more of an edge than that.

    If anything they could've made him more flexible by choosing something his rage didn't already cover.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,437
    Shadow Thieves
    @Chronicler His rage also runs the chance of losing control of Minsc. You don't want to lose control of a party member when fighting dangerous enemies. His bonuses to hit and damage vampires also ends fights quicker, meaning less risk.

  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    Shadow Thieves
    ThacoBell said:

    @Chronicler His rage also runs the chance of losing control of Minsc. You don't want to lose control of a party member when fighting dangerous enemies. His bonuses to hit and damage vampires also ends fights quicker, meaning less risk.

    You just keep your distance when he's raging. It's not a big deal.

    They're not really "dangerous enemies" without their level drain.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 7,437
    Shadow Thieves

    ThacoBell said:

    @Chronicler His rage also runs the chance of losing control of Minsc. You don't want to lose control of a party member when fighting dangerous enemies. His bonuses to hit and damage vampires also ends fights quicker, meaning less risk.

    You just keep your distance when he's raging. It's not a big deal.

    They're not really "dangerous enemies" without their level drain.
    If you know how to deal with them, no enemy is really "dangerous". You'll the main thrust of my post is that Minsc is meant to help NEW PLAYERS. A brand new player isn't going to even know what level drain is going into their first playthrough. Throw in charm, and the fact that vampires tend to spawn in groups, you have recipe for frustrating a first time player.

    ChroniclerZaghoul
  • ChroniclerChronicler Member Posts: 462
    Shadow Thieves
    ThacoBell said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @Chronicler His rage also runs the chance of losing control of Minsc. You don't want to lose control of a party member when fighting dangerous enemies. His bonuses to hit and damage vampires also ends fights quicker, meaning less risk.

    You just keep your distance when he's raging. It's not a big deal.

    They're not really "dangerous enemies" without their level drain.
    If you know how to deal with them, no enemy is really "dangerous". You'll the main thrust of my post is that Minsc is meant to help NEW PLAYERS. A brand new player isn't going to even know what level drain is going into their first playthrough. Throw in charm, and the fact that vampires tend to spawn in groups, you have recipe for frustrating a first time player.
    Yeah, that's a fair point.

    Zaghoul
  • prairiechickenprairiechicken Member Posts: 147
    edited July 11
    Shadow Thieves
    I only chose bodhi once for evil playthrough.

    Not a fan of doing evil stuff, especially when the game blatantly implies you what the "canon" is.

    Also, I like having an extra ally on the final fight just for fun

  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 714
    ThacoBell said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @Chronicler His rage also runs the chance of losing control of Minsc. You don't want to lose control of a party member when fighting dangerous enemies. His bonuses to hit and damage vampires also ends fights quicker, meaning less risk.

    You just keep your distance when he's raging. It's not a big deal.

    They're not really "dangerous enemies" without their level drain.
    If you know how to deal with them, no enemy is really "dangerous". You'll the main thrust of my post is that Minsc is meant to help NEW PLAYERS. A brand new player isn't going to even know what level drain is going into their first playthrough. Throw in charm, and the fact that vampires tend to spawn in groups, you have recipe for frustrating a first time player.
    Sigh, I still remember when I first discovered level drain. Minsc just suddenly had this weird symbol on his icon that I hadn't seen before. I didn't know what it was. I wasn't sure what had caused it. I didn't know how to get rid of it and I sure didn't know how to prevent it from happening again. Level drain should be called inconvenience gain.

    ThacoBell
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Bodhi and her vampires
    JoenSo said:

    ThacoBell said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @Chronicler His rage also runs the chance of losing control of Minsc. You don't want to lose control of a party member when fighting dangerous enemies. His bonuses to hit and damage vampires also ends fights quicker, meaning less risk.

    You just keep your distance when he's raging. It's not a big deal.

    They're not really "dangerous enemies" without their level drain.
    If you know how to deal with them, no enemy is really "dangerous". You'll the main thrust of my post is that Minsc is meant to help NEW PLAYERS. A brand new player isn't going to even know what level drain is going into their first playthrough. Throw in charm, and the fact that vampires tend to spawn in groups, you have recipe for frustrating a first time player.
    Sigh, I still remember when I first discovered level drain. Minsc just suddenly had this weird symbol on his icon that I hadn't seen before. I didn't know what it was. I wasn't sure what had caused it. I didn't know how to get rid of it and I sure didn't know how to prevent it from happening again. Level drain should be called inconvenience gain.
    That's why the later playthroughs are never as epic as the first couple of playthroughs. It's like bowling and pool. Once people gets good at it, it is boooooooooring. Strike strike strike strike strike oh he only got 9 pins with this ball he made a mistake now his opponent who had all strikes will win!!!

    ThacoBellJoenSo
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