Guys, I hate to bring up the whole save bonus/penalty with kits vs. no kits discussion again, but I am unable to replicate your results where weapons lacking a school gain save penalties when wielded by a kitted character. I tested this thoroughly with a variety of circumstances, and everything seems to work as one would expect: I can find no penalty or bonus applied to the weapon effect saves when kitless characters attack kitted characters or vice versa. Maybe I am missing something but here are some of my results:
Korgan attacks Anomen with Celestial Fury. Anomen's save vs. spell is 1. Anomen saves vs. spell at 1.
I then reversed the situation and had Anomen attack my Blackguard Charname Torgo with The Brick. Torgo's save vs. spell was 1. Torgo saves vs. spell at 1.
@Ygramul Give me a little while and I'll send you those files later tonight : IR/SR and SCS for SR, all for Mac. Is that what you need ? Do you have the proper Weidu installer for Mac ?
@Ygramul Give me a little while and I'll send you those files later tonight : IR/SR and SCS for SR, all for Mac. Is that what you need ? Do you have the proper Weidu installer for Mac ?
Much appreciated thank you.
I have *some* weidu file from *some* alternate past.
It is best perhaps to assume that I have nothing and know nothing and provide a step-by-step installation guide.
Now, I know that it is a lot of work. This may be a sticky-worthy "Help a Mac User in Need" post for separate thread or something. (Such things were, of course, done in the past by helpful people like you. Problem is that they get obsolete with each new patch. After hours of googling I can't get any to work.)
Korgan attacks Anomen with Celestial Fury. Anomen's save vs. spell is 1. Anomen saves vs. spell at 1.
That's expected. If he has a save v spells of 1 and rolls a 1 he'll save. The question is whether he'll ever roll below 1, despite being attacked by a weapon that should not impose a save penalty.
How many trials have you had?
Best,
A.
NW: You may want to test with a single class unkitted character to a void potential confounds. Consider mirroring our test conditions as closely as possible
NWII: I can't comment on the Torgo results: We've never conducted experiments with a Blackguard (on current data, we can't rule out the possibility that the EE kits were coded differently and behave different). I'm unfamiliar with the Brick and its coding
Okay, I'll PM you the files and the step-by-step way to install them. Give me about 2 hours.
Edit : I'll give you the instruction for a stand-alone install. Since I bought the games on GOG, I don't know if there's any difference on a Steam install.
Korgan attacks Anomen with Celestial Fury. Anomen's save vs. spell is 1. Anomen saves vs. spell at 1.
That's expected. If he has a save v spells of 1 and rolls a 1 he'll save. The question is whether he'll ever roll below 1 or above 18, despite being attack by a weapon that should not impose a save penalty.
How many trials have you had?
Best,
A.
NW: You may want to test with a single class unkitted character to a void potential confounds. Consider mirroring our test conditions as closely as possible
NWII: I can't comment on the Torgo results: We've never conducted experiments with a Blackguard, and I'm unfamiliar with the Brick
Very well... I tested it now with Korgan vs. Sarevok. Korgan had Celestial Fury. Sarevok had 1 in save vs. spells and he was rolling in a range from 1-20. He was never stunned.
Edit: Next I tested Sarevok vs. Korgan. Sarevok had Arrows of Fire. Korgan had 1 in save vs. spells and he was rolling in a range of 1-20. He never took fire damage.
Perhaps. My tests were on BG2:EE v2.3.67.3 without EET. I have a few minor tweaks, but nothing that would affect this sort of thing.
On the up side, I was able to get a necromancer Imoen to apply her kit penalty to the Black Blade of Disaster where a normal Imoen would not, so that part is still good.
Could also be standard NPCs vs generated: I believe Tresset is the first to use any standard NPCs in their test. Everyone else has generated their own. I'll run my own tests in a minute if I'm not busy by then: expecting a call. I'll be testing the regular Korgan vs a generated Dwarven Berserker, and see if that makes any difference.
Very well... I tested it now with Korgan vs. Sarevok. Korgan had Celestial Fury. Sarevok had 1 in save vs. spells and he was rolling in a range from 1-20. He was never stunned.
That's interesting, I agree.
Possible confounds:
1) Version, as semiticgod suggested
2) Sarevok himself. Sarevok is "unkitted" from our point of view, but he has unique abilities. And given that we don't know what fields control the hypothesized "specialist" "generalist" classification, we can't necessarily make any assumptions with respect to how the engine treats him for our purposes.
Try doing what I did exactly: create a new berserker and a new pure fighter, identical in every way, save kit.
If you fail to replicate with the same test conditions I used, then we can look for distinguishing variables
@Serg_BlackStrider So a couple of your save vs speels are very high still (for Mazzy and Viconia), does this get problematic? I feel like that would make me nervous in a no reload setting.
What do you do for enemies that require specific protections like vampires, beholders or mindflayers? NPP lasts 4 rounds -- do you just keep unprotected party members far away?
Also, you're far braver than I am, I'd be terrified to do the watcher's keep maze -- the dead magic zone to Tanaari fight has caused me more headaches than most other fights in the game.
2) Sarevok himself. Sarevok is "unkitted" from our point of view, but he has unique abilities. And given that we don't know what fields control the hypothesized "specialist" "generalist" classification, we can't necessarily make any assumptions with respect to how the engine treats him for our purposes.
Um, I am going to have to disagree with you on this point. I know exactly what field controls the Generalist vs. Specialist classification. The kit is controlled by the "kit" field at offest 0x244 on the .cre file. Sarevok's kit field is set to "none". Imoen's field is set to "none". Edwin's field is set to "MAGESCHOOL_CONJURER". This fact is clearly visible in NearInfinity. Also, Sarevok's unique abilities are basically just effects that have been placed on his .cre file. They have no more bearing on his kit than a wizard slayer's spell disrupting attack or a monk who activated their Stunning Blow ability.
I know this field controls the kit and the specialist bonus because of my black blade of disaster tests with Imoen. When she attacked Anomen, who had a save vs. death of 5, she was unable to disintegrate him. I then edited her by changing this field to "MAGESCHOOL_NECROMANCER" and she was able to disintegrate Anomen with her Black Blade due the save penalty of the kit. This was the ONLY field I edited when I made this change to Imoen.
I have confirmation that, on my install at least which might be affected heavily by IR and other mods, Korgan is rolling within the 1 - 20 range no matter who's attacking him. Imoen, Anomen, and a Dwarven Berserker each managed to see a roll within a 1 or a 2, and thus the specialization bonus is most definitely not applying. Similar results happened to my own Dwarven Berserker.
Um, I am going to have to disagree with you on this point.
The issue is whether the engine treats Sarevok differently than a player created fighter for these purposes.
On present evidence, I remain unwilling to rule out the possibility that the engine treats Sarevok and or other NPCs differently.
To the extent that we are seeking to replicate each others results, it would be wise to keep our test conditions as similar as possible.
I'll attempt to replicate your results, using the characters you chose, Korgan and Sarevok, ASAP. I suggest that you try the new fighter/new berserker pairing.
Best,
A.
Btw, in prior studies, monster set to NO_KIT had enjoyed the bonuses, whereas player created characters set to NO_KIT did not
I suppose so. My main point was that I know what field controls the kit. What the various possible entries for the kit field are hardcoded to do is not so obvious to me. I will try comparing PCs vs. PCs now... I am unconvinced at this point that it will make a difference, however.
By the way, I meant no offense. I just don't want to be so quick to throw out the established rulebook, so to speak, when looking into things like this.
My main point was that I know what field controls the kit.
Understood. And I appreciate your insight.
I, personally, am unwilling to assume that that field and that field alone is the difference maker, based on current evidence. I'd like to see more data before rendering a judgement.
I will try comparing PCs vs. PCs now... I am unconvinced at this point that it will make a difference, however.
I don't know whether it will make a difference either. That's precisely why we should test. And that's precisely why I'll be running tests with Sarevok and Korgan in my install.
In any event, let's try to mirror each others test conditions as closely as possible, and see what we get. We can refine the model and or look for distinguishing variables once we have more data.
By the way, I meant no offense. I just don't want to be so quick to throw out the established rulebook, so to speak, when looking into things like this.
Understood. Please do seek replication in your install.
I can say that I and others have tested in a variety of installs and have replicated each others results both within and across installs. On the data, I'm convinced that the effect is real in at least a subset of installs. If you do ultimately fail to replicate in your setup, that would be interesting. It would also be the first time any of us have made that observation.
My hope is that you WILL fail to replicate, and that that will give us a window into how those of us who do have the issue in our installs can resolve it.
This difference appears to be being caused by the aforementioned "Kit" field being set to "MAGESCHOOL_GENERALIST". I am not sure what the point of the "MAGESCHOOL_GENERALIST" is but I am now convinced that it is either bugged or just plain should not be used. When a character has this set as their kit it works like an anti-specialist kit for spells without a school. This includes most weapons and certain spells. Take the HLA Dragon's Breath spell for instance. When I had a mage with the Generalist kit assigned attack a hostile Anomen (no kit assigned) with 1 in save vs. breath he saved against it in a range of 3-22. But if that same Anomen were to cast that spell, my mage would have saved against it with a -2 penalty because of her buggy kit.
The thing is that when you roll a new Kitless character, of any base class, they will have the Generalist kit assigned to them. If you create a kitted character then the Generalist kit is replaced with the specific kit of that character.
Possibly the best example of this conflict would be a battle of Imoen vs. Nalia. All of Imoen's .cre files (excluding the Chateau Irenicus version) have "none" assigned as the kit, whereas all of Nalia's .cre files have the "generalist" kit assigned. If these two both had 1 in save vs. spell and battled each other with CF, then Imoen would be able to stun Nalia while Nalia would not be able to stun Imoen.
The bad news is that a great many creature files use the generalist kit, many of them being joinable NPCs. It is seemingly random whether these creatures were assigned as Generalists or Nones.
The good news is that we now know what is going on! I will now have to make a mod that will remove the Generalist kit from all creature files and replace it with None. Unfortunately, kitless characters that are created by players will require NearInfinity or similar to remove the bad Generalist kit since the game is likely hardcoded to make new characters this way.
Nice work! I Look forward to trying the Nalia/Imoen pairing.
Let us know if and when you develop a fix.
Best,
A.
Btw, for everyone's reference, I did find pairwise asymmetries between Sarevok and Korgan and my player created unkitted fighter and Korgan.
Letting Korgan attack Sarevok, I observe rolls between 1-20.
Letting Korgan attack my unkitted fighter, Aestica, I observe rolls between -1 and 18, as previously documented
This suggests that the engine does treat Sarevok differently from a player created unkitted fighter, as some of us suspected. It also suggests that there aren't necessarily differences between our installs and Tresset's. Note that Tresset's current hypothesis does provide a means of understanding the pairwise differences
Btw, results from the Nalia/Imoen pairing were in accordance with the predictions of our working theory: Nalia rolled between -1 and 18, Imoen rolled between 3 and 22. It looks like we're getting there!
This difference appears to be being caused by the aforementioned "Kit" field being set to "MAGESCHOOL_GENERALIST". I am not sure what the point of the "MAGESCHOOL_GENERALIST" is but I am now convinced that it is either bugged or just plain should not be used. When a character has this set as their kit it works like an anti-specialist kit for spells without a school. This includes most weapons and certain spells. Take the HLA Dragon's Breath spell for instance. When I had a mage with the Generalist kit assigned attack a hostile Anomen (no kit assigned) with 1 in save vs. breath he saved against it in a range of 3-22. But if that same Anomen were to cast that spell, my mage would have saved against it with a -2 penalty because of her buggy kit.
Possibly the best example of this conflict would be a battle of Imoen vs. Nalia. All of Imoen's .cre files (excluding the Chateau Irenicus version) have "none" assigned as the kit, whereas all of Nalia's .cre files have the "generalist" kit assigned. If these two both had 1 in save vs. spell and battled each other with CF, then Imoen would be able to stun Nalia while Nalia would not be able to stun Imoen.
I think the cause and effect here is backwards. The reason I started investigating this in the first place was that my gnome illusionist/thief was failing saves that he shouldn't have and I/Ts are properly given the illusionist kit. The issue here is that Imoen and Anomen have NONE as their kit. You would get the same results if you tested Imoen vs. Jan Jansen.
The thing is that when you roll a new Kitless character, of any base class, they will have the Generalist kit assigned to them. If you create a kitted character then the Generalist kit is replaced with the specific kit of that character.
This is true and important though which is why tests involving NPCs and player created characters may give different results.
Question for those who have successfully installed SCS over BP Ascension @JuliusBorisov
1) Does Gromnir whine if you attack him with ranged weapons? 2) Do the mages detect the invisible via script and attack with Energy Blades during Time Stop? 3) Do the mages make odd spell choices, like Wail of the Banshee and Prismatic Spray?
I'm trying to determine whether the behavior I'm observing is SCS scripting or BP scripting. It smells like BP to me, but I can't say for certain: this is my first time running in v30 with a warrior. In my prior v30 play through with a sorcerer, we didn't get a good look at Gromnir or his allies.
Comments
What I can't do is get BP Ascension to work with the SCS scripts.
If you have a copy of v1.3, Ygramul, and don't intend to play with Ascension, then I can probably get you up and running.
Best,
A.
There must *some* way to have SCS working on 2.3 on a Mac. This shouldn't be so daunting.
Korgan attacks Anomen with Celestial Fury. Anomen's save vs. spell is 1. Anomen saves vs. spell at 1.
I then reversed the situation and had Anomen attack my Blackguard Charname Torgo with The Brick. Torgo's save vs. spell was 1. Torgo saves vs. spell at 1.
I have *some* weidu file from *some* alternate past.
It is best perhaps to assume that I have nothing and know nothing and provide a step-by-step installation guide.
Now, I know that it is a lot of work. This may be a sticky-worthy "Help a Mac User in Need" post for separate thread or something. (Such things were, of course, done in the past by helpful people like you. Problem is that they get obsolete with each new patch. After hours of googling I can't get any to work.)
Many thanks again for the offer to help.
I mean SCS et al. could actually have a civilized ".dmg" (install) file for Mac Users without requiring all the weird hoopla.
How many trials have you had?
Best,
A.
NW: You may want to test with a single class unkitted character to a void potential confounds. Consider mirroring our test conditions as closely as possible
NWII: I can't comment on the Torgo results: We've never conducted experiments with a Blackguard (on current data, we can't rule out the possibility that the EE kits were coded differently and behave different). I'm unfamiliar with the Brick and its coding
Edit : I'll give you the instruction for a stand-alone install. Since I bought the games on GOG, I don't know if there's any difference on a Steam install.
Edit: Next I tested Sarevok vs. Korgan. Sarevok had Arrows of Fire. Korgan had 1 in save vs. spells and he was rolling in a range of 1-20. He never took fire damage.
On the up side, I was able to get a necromancer Imoen to apply her kit penalty to the Black Blade of Disaster where a normal Imoen would not, so that part is still good.
Possible confounds:
1) Version, as semiticgod suggested
2) Sarevok himself. Sarevok is "unkitted" from our point of view, but he has unique abilities. And given that we don't know what fields control the hypothesized "specialist" "generalist" classification, we can't necessarily make any assumptions with respect to how the engine treats him for our purposes.
Try doing what I did exactly: create a new berserker and a new pure fighter, identical in every way, save kit.
If you fail to replicate with the same test conditions I used, then we can look for distinguishing variables
Best,
A.
What do you do for enemies that require specific protections like vampires, beholders or mindflayers? NPP lasts 4 rounds -- do you just keep unprotected party members far away?
Also, you're far braver than I am, I'd be terrified to do the watcher's keep maze -- the dead magic zone to Tanaari fight has caused me more headaches than most other fights in the game.
I know this field controls the kit and the specialist bonus because of my black blade of disaster tests with Imoen. When she attacked Anomen, who had a save vs. death of 5, she was unable to disintegrate him. I then edited her by changing this field to "MAGESCHOOL_NECROMANCER" and she was able to disintegrate Anomen with her Black Blade due the save penalty of the kit. This was the ONLY field I edited when I made this change to Imoen.
On present evidence, I remain unwilling to rule out the possibility that the engine treats Sarevok and or other NPCs differently.
To the extent that we are seeking to replicate each others results, it would be wise to keep our test conditions as similar as possible.
I'll attempt to replicate your results, using the characters you chose, Korgan and Sarevok, ASAP. I suggest that you try the new fighter/new berserker pairing.
Best,
A.
Btw, in prior studies, monster set to NO_KIT had enjoyed the bonuses, whereas player created characters set to NO_KIT did not
By the way, I meant no offense. I just don't want to be so quick to throw out the established rulebook, so to speak, when looking into things like this.
I, personally, am unwilling to assume that that field and that field alone is the difference maker, based on current evidence. I'd like to see more data before rendering a judgement. I don't know whether it will make a difference either. That's precisely why we should test. And that's precisely why I'll be running tests with Sarevok and Korgan in my install.
In any event, let's try to mirror each others test conditions as closely as possible, and see what we get. We can refine the model and or look for distinguishing variables once we have more data.
Best,
A.
I can say that I and others have tested in a variety of installs and have replicated each others results both within and across installs. On the data, I'm convinced that the effect is real in at least a subset of installs. If you do ultimately fail to replicate in your setup, that would be interesting. It would also be the first time any of us have made that observation.
My hope is that you WILL fail to replicate, and that that will give us a window into how those of us who do have the issue in our installs can resolve it.
Best,
A.
Best,
A.
Community spirit on these boards is substantial.
The thing is that when you roll a new Kitless character, of any base class, they will have the Generalist kit assigned to them. If you create a kitted character then the Generalist kit is replaced with the specific kit of that character.
Possibly the best example of this conflict would be a battle of Imoen vs. Nalia. All of Imoen's .cre files (excluding the Chateau Irenicus version) have "none" assigned as the kit, whereas all of Nalia's .cre files have the "generalist" kit assigned. If these two both had 1 in save vs. spell and battled each other with CF, then Imoen would be able to stun Nalia while Nalia would not be able to stun Imoen.
The bad news is that a great many creature files use the generalist kit, many of them being joinable NPCs. It is seemingly random whether these creatures were assigned as Generalists or Nones.
The good news is that we now know what is going on! I will now have to make a mod that will remove the Generalist kit from all creature files and replace it with None. Unfortunately, kitless characters that are created by players will require NearInfinity or similar to remove the bad Generalist kit since the game is likely hardcoded to make new characters this way.
Let us know if and when you develop a fix.
Best,
A.
Btw, for everyone's reference, I did find pairwise asymmetries between Sarevok and Korgan and my player created unkitted fighter and Korgan.
Letting Korgan attack Sarevok, I observe rolls between 1-20.
Letting Korgan attack my unkitted fighter, Aestica, I observe rolls between -1 and 18, as previously documented
This suggests that the engine does treat Sarevok differently from a player created unkitted fighter, as some of us suspected. It also suggests that there aren't necessarily differences between our installs and Tresset's. Note that Tresset's current hypothesis does provide a means of understanding the pairwise differences
Welcome to our new home!
Best,
A.
Best,
A.
1) Does Gromnir whine if you attack him with ranged weapons?
2) Do the mages detect the invisible via script and attack with Energy Blades during Time Stop?
3) Do the mages make odd spell choices, like Wail of the Banshee and Prismatic Spray?
I'm trying to determine whether the behavior I'm observing is SCS scripting or BP scripting. It smells like BP to me, but I can't say for certain: this is my first time running in v30 with a warrior. In my prior v30 play through with a sorcerer, we didn't get a good look at Gromnir or his allies.
Best,
A.