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The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for No Reload Challengers- Newbie or Veteran

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  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    We made it all the way through the Underdark with the Sky Dancer party before I eventually realized that Imoen shouldn't have been able to take the Flare Dancer kit... the Dancer monk kits are only for lawful-aligned critters, and Imoen is Neutral Good. I was about to tackle the Twisted Rune at the lowest level I've ever done before, but it just doesn't feel right to continue the run when Imoen wasn't eligible for the class I gave her.

    Still haven't gotten back to finishing the Transmuter run... or posting on the no-reload IWD2:EE run, for which there's a lot of content left to be posted still. I don't know when I'll be back to posting on the Transmuter. I'm a little more interested in a Vampyre thief kit run.

    I had planned on making heavy use of Lightning Bolts in my Sky Dancer run, but found limited opportunities for it to make a difference. I probably could have done more if I had had more priest levels in the party and could have made everyone safely immune to electricity damage all the time, but the threat of accidentally frying the party with stray bolts kept me from using Lightning Bolts, whether from wands or spells, in most cases.

    But the Wand of Lightning is indeed very, very strong. Across all six bolts in the BG2 version, it's 18d6 damage per charge and it can be bounced multiple times fairly reliably if you aim directly north, south, east, or west (which appears to be a little harder in the Enhanced Edition than I remember it being in vanilla). We used it to take down Tanova in spite of our party's lack of good anti-vampire tools.

    I'm starting to view druids as suboptimal these days. With SCS nerfing the hell out of Insect Plague (it can be blocked by a save, Stoneskin, Fire Shield, AND immunity to nonmagical weapons, and Death Spell can dispel it even then), druids effectively lose the best disabler in the game, and druids' inability to gain high levels makes them pretty mediocre buffers for party members who can't cast SI: Abjuration or Entropy Shield: if you can't break past level 14 until very late in the game, your Chaotic Commands spells are going to get dispelled very easily. They're better than clerics in BG1 and SoD (Giant Insect is really powerful and clerics take forever to first learn Chaotic Commands--Jaheira, a multi-classed druid, learns Chaotic Commands before Viconia!), but after midgame SoA, a single-classed cleric will just have a much better caster level.

    But frankly, as long as Charname can cast Cure Light Wounds, there's not much need for a full-time healer before BG2, since there are tons of Chaotic Commands scrolls in SoD (monks, paladins, and rangers can all use them) and resting can take care of basic healing duties.

    StummvonBordwehrAerakarEnuhalGrond0
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,618
    As I'm testing 2.6 I recently finished the Palace fight in BG1. Even while I used 3 scrolls of Chaos and 2 Horror spells round 1, the enemy doppelganger mage still managed to cast Chaos and 2 of my characters fell under its effect. One of them went towards an innocent NPC there (a surviving Noblewoman) and I managed to stop him during the last second by blocking the way with 2 of my other characters.

    A question: do dukes go hostile if, under the effect of Confusion, your party members kill an innocent in that room? Would that have been a game over if I failed to stop my confused character there? Or I would have just got a reputation hit?

    StummvonBordwehrWise_GrimwaldArvia
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    The solo Vampyre breezed through the second half of SoD today (we just used Caelar to tank Belhifet and kept her safe with Greater Restoration scrolls) and is on Aran's third task in SoA, a little over 2 million XP. We had a LOT of close calls in early BG2--not because of disablers we barely survived or would have died to, but because we kept getting hit hard by enemy fighters, from the starting dungeon duergar to Camitis and even the skeletons in the Trademeet questline. Not any big name enemies; just random critters that had solid damage output. Maybe I'm just clumsy with hit-and-fade tactics now that we no longer have the Boots of Speed to help us scurry out of enemy fighters' reach!

    I'm wondering where to go from here. A lot of the remaining fights are melee heavy, like the De'Arnise Keep or Firkraag's lair or Bodhi herself (ironically, the Vampyre kit cannot join the vampire guild because it's a single-classed thief!). I don't want to get cornered by a gang of trolls or spend half an hour chasing down Tanova (last time I tried to use a Protection from Undead scroll against the pre-Spellhold vampires, they all just ran).

    Even after Use Any Item, I'm not sure what kind of armor or robe we might use. We could finally get some solid AC with metal armor, but being able to use stealth mid-combat has been really important for our safety. Maybe I should bite the bullet and don plate mail and a good helmet and just operate like a less efficient, low-HP fighter.

    If possible I'd like to grab UAI before Bodhi and smack Tanova with the Mace of Disruption. Getting to Spellhold early will be very useful; I plan on making liberal use of the revised Slayer form.

    Grond0StummvonBordwehrEnuhal
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,618
    I believe that it would have been game over.
    I think the dukes would only go hostile if you attack them; not other innocents. I've heard of folks dropping 10 or more reputation points during the palace fight without losing the run, which means killing an innocent by itself ostensibly wouldn't be game-ending.

    So there is conflicting feedback to this, just as I expected. I also had a feeling that they won't go hostile if you attack noble innocents there. If anyone else has some evidence, I'd appreciate it (for future runs, of course).

    StummvonBordwehrWise_Grimwald
  • StummvonBordwehrStummvonBordwehr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 953
    edited February 2
    Hi @JuliusBorisov
    Good to hear that you get to play the game.

    According to the LoB + SCS thread the “non dukes and guards” can be killed with rep loss, but it is not an instant game over per se.

    Try to see the posts from Alice Ashpool: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/comment/1160790/#Comment_1160790

    Nuking the place is apparently a strategy. So go a ahead whilst we are still in 2.5 - before things changes.

    Post edited by StummvonBordwehr on
    JuliusBorisovsemiticgoddessAerakarArvia
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    And the solo Vampyre has just brought down Kangaxx and the Twisted Rune! The Underdark was very difficult because our poor THAC0; we had lots of trouble hitting the drow and landing hits on Adalon, and Soul Reaver's 20-round THAC0 penalties didn't actually last long enough to keep us safe after our opening 2 Time Traps! We ended up burning a lot of potions as well as two Tenser's Transformation scrolls and two Improved Haste scrolls just to bring down Adalon. Even the drow full plate wasn't enough to keep us safe; we got hurt a lot in our short trip through the Underdark.

    We nabbed the Human Flesh +5 and now we have near-unbreakable saving throws even with minimal equipment (dwarves are the best). We used Time Traps, Improved Haste from the upgraded Cloak of Protection +2, and the revised Slayer form to butcher Firkraag within a single Time Trap at 20 APR. Kangaxx failed to do much against the Cloak of Mirroring, and while his demilich form seemed to be immune to wing buffet (and so we couldn't knock him into our Spike Traps to the west), he was completely vulnerable to Sunray from the Helm of Brilliance, making for an anticlimactic fight.

    We had to reload when a Protection from Magic scroll made it impossible to escape the Twisted Rune (even after it's dispelled, Shangalar won't trigger the dialog that brings in Vaxall), but managed to kill Vaxall early with a couple Time Traps and a Spike Trap set by our clone. I got worried when Layenne proved impossible to reveal even with Detect Illusions, but when she finally broke invisibility, we used our only Time Stop scroll to break through her Mantle with Carsomyr and dual-wielding the Firetooth dagger and the Ninja-to of the Scarlet Brotherhood, netting us the Staff of the Magi. I could do a few scattered chores before ending SoA, but we're basically at our peak, with all the key items we could want and all the HLAs we'd be able to make use of.

    Single-classed thieves get a lot less impressive as ToB approaches and their weak THAC0 and poor tanking ability makes it harder to actually deal damage. But I think a normal thief would still be pretty decent; I picked a lot of Improved Evasions HLA's to help the Vampyre survive in melee, but picking trap HLAs instead and adopting the evasive playstyle that got me through BG1 would probably still work just fine.

    Illasera will be a non-issue, and the Staff of the Magi will trivialize Gromnir and Sendai. Yaga-Shura will warrant some Time Traps, Abazigal will probably fall to either tanking with the Answerer and Soul Reaver to penalize his AC and THAC0, or just kiting with the Scorcher Ammunition (I think an Anti-Magic Shell scroll would be a good answer to the chance of a fatal Maze spell in the new SCS with IWD spells), Balthazar can be talked down, and the Ravager should play out a lot like Abazigal.

    Then comes Melissan. I'm still pretty anxious about the Throne and a Time Stop spell from Abazigal or Melissan, but I should have a whole bunch of PFMW scrolls saved up by that point.

    Grond0EnuhalMantis37
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    I've been thinking about a minimalist run or a speedrun, probably with a Blade, trying to get through each part of the game with the least amount of effort. But the best ways to beat the game at low levels, with low equipment, spending little time and little effort, tend to involve exploits, and a zero-exploit minimalist no-reload run would probably not be particularly minimalist if it succeeded.

    I think I'm burned out on thieves for the time being, so trying my hand at the mythical solo Bounty Hunter run will have to wait.

    BlackravenStummvonBordwehrGrond0
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    I didn't find the Blade too interesting so the Bounty Hunter is now in Baldur's Gate! The ranged traps are very convenient, and it was especially nice to take down Drizzt with 7 pre-set traps and then a final thrown trap while he was trying to heal himself.

    Note that Hurgan Stoneblade and Bjornin have some nice stealable goodies on their person, if you're a nonviolent thief who's chugging Potions of Master Thievery around Beregost in Ulgoth's Beard to nab Algernon's Cloak and Edventar's Gift.

    StummvonBordwehrAerakar
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    The Bounty Hunter is now in SoD. :smile:

    StummvonBordwehrAerakar
  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,090
    edited February 7
    I've been thinking about a minimalist run or a speedrun, probably with a Blade, trying to get through each part of the game with the least amount of effort. But the best ways to beat the game at low levels, with low equipment, spending little time and little effort, tend to involve exploits, and a zero-exploit minimalist no-reload run would probably not be particularly minimalist if it succeeded.

    I think I'm burned out on thieves for the time being, so trying my hand at the mythical solo Bounty Hunter run will have to wait.

    Your mention of a minimalist run or a speedrun, brought to mind my runs of thieves and fighter/thieves where I didn't kill a single character. One of them I killed Sarevok with my fists. That ought to have been impossible. The other was a fluke as he was killed by lightning from a trap.

    As I thought about it I realised that I probably wouldn't be able to use the same tactics as Algernon's Cloak has been nerfed.

    One tactic was to charm Mulahey with it and let the kobolds kill him.

    Similar with Davaeorn. Charm him and let the battle horrors kill him.

    It was nice to play as a thief. That is, use stealth rather than fighting. Of course you finish BG1 at a very low level.

    AerakarGrond0StummvonBordwehrJaheiras_Witness
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    The Bounty Hunter is in BG2. I'm going to play it cautious until I can start experimenting with Maze traps. We have good odds, and I'd like this run to succeed.

    Now that I think about it, I think it's been years since I've ever used a Maze trap. While I've used Bounty Hunters in various party runs, they almost never hit level 21. I barely even know how to use Maze traps!

    Mantis37AerakarEnuhalStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    I'm steadily getting better at using traps as time goes on, but I haven't been making much use of the Maze traps. They've only been truly instrumental against Firkraag and Adalon. Mostly we've just been relying on Spike Traps, though we had to combine it with judicious use of our two Time Traps and our clone to deal with Bodhi and her high regeneration.

    We have a bunch of Blindness and PW: Blindness scrolls saved up, but so far I haven't used them. I have, however, used the blind thief trick when other enemies have blinded me. I was very amused when Kangaxx blinded my Vhailor's Helm clone and allowed her to instantly kill him by setting a Spike Trap in plain sight.

    Does anybody know why a trap would apply its effects twice? Sometimes I see a single Spike Trap dealing 20d6 damage twice, a single normal snare dealing missile and poison damage twice, and I think also Time Traps lasting for 20 seconds instead of 10. So far it hasn't impacted gameplay too much, but I don't want to win a fight early and wonder if a bug saved the run.

    StummvonBordwehrEnuhalWise_Grimwald
  • aldainaldain Member Posts: 266
    I wouldn't say I know what's causing it, but as far as I recall it's been around since the pre-EE games.
    It's definitely a bug; there's no legitimate reason a trap would fire twice.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,918
    My assumption has been that this sort of thing occurs as a result of the trap projectiles bouncing - have you noticed it when walls or other obstacles are nearby?

  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,606
    I believe that it would have been game over. There are alternatives to blocking. You can put heavy armour in the confused character's backpack so that they can't move. Of course you still have to stop innocent characters moving within range of the confused one. Web, grease etc. can be used for that.

    I never even considered that it's possible to access a confused person 's inventory. Giving them something heavy to make them stop moving never occurred to me. That's going to be extremely useful in the future! Also that you can still switch their weapons... few things are worse than a confused character with acid arrows...

    Maybe I'm the only one who embarrassingly never noticed that, but perhaps someone should put it into the "Did you know?" thread.

    So, thanks a lot for very useful information!

    JuliusBorisovAerakarWise_Grimwald
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,918
    Arvia wrote: »
    I believe that it would have been game over. There are alternatives to blocking. You can put heavy armour in the confused character's backpack so that they can't move. Of course you still have to stop innocent characters moving within range of the confused one. Web, grease etc. can be used for that.

    I never even considered that it's possible to access a confused person 's inventory. Giving them something heavy to make them stop moving never occurred to me. That's going to be extremely useful in the future! Also that you can still switch their weapons... few things are worse than a confused character with acid arrows...

    Maybe I'm the only one who embarrassingly never noticed that, but perhaps someone should put it into the "Did you know?" thread.

    So, thanks a lot for very useful information!

    It's not quite that good. You can't get into the inventory - but you can chuck things into it from a distance ;).

    JuliusBorisovArviaAerakar
  • ArviaArvia Member, Moderator Posts: 1,606
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Arvia wrote: »
    I believe that it would have been game over. There are alternatives to blocking. You can put heavy armour in the confused character's backpack so that they can't move. Of course you still have to stop innocent characters moving within range of the confused one. Web, grease etc. can be used for that.

    I never even considered that it's possible to access a confused person 's inventory. Giving them something heavy to make them stop moving never occurred to me. That's going to be extremely useful in the future! Also that you can still switch their weapons... few things are worse than a confused character with acid arrows...

    Maybe I'm the only one who embarrassingly never noticed that, but perhaps someone should put it into the "Did you know?" thread.

    So, thanks a lot for very useful information!

    It's not quite that good. You can't get into the inventory - but you can chuck things into it from a distance ;).

    I see, about giving them heavy items. But then how can you change the weapon for a weaker one? Can you drop something right into their weapon slots?

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    Arvia wrote: »
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Arvia wrote: »
    I believe that it would have been game over. There are alternatives to blocking. You can put heavy armour in the confused character's backpack so that they can't move. Of course you still have to stop innocent characters moving within range of the confused one. Web, grease etc. can be used for that.

    I never even considered that it's possible to access a confused person 's inventory. Giving them something heavy to make them stop moving never occurred to me. That's going to be extremely useful in the future! Also that you can still switch their weapons... few things are worse than a confused character with acid arrows...

    Maybe I'm the only one who embarrassingly never noticed that, but perhaps someone should put it into the "Did you know?" thread.

    So, thanks a lot for very useful information!

    It's not quite that good. You can't get into the inventory - but you can chuck things into it from a distance ;).

    I see, about giving them heavy items. But then how can you change the weapon for a weaker one? Can you drop something right into their weapon slots?
    In the EE at least, you can pick the weapon slot you want to replace. Same goes for equipment slots.

    ArviaStummvonBordwehr
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,918
    Arvia wrote: »
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Arvia wrote: »
    I believe that it would have been game over. There are alternatives to blocking. You can put heavy armour in the confused character's backpack so that they can't move. Of course you still have to stop innocent characters moving within range of the confused one. Web, grease etc. can be used for that.

    I never even considered that it's possible to access a confused person 's inventory. Giving them something heavy to make them stop moving never occurred to me. That's going to be extremely useful in the future! Also that you can still switch their weapons... few things are worse than a confused character with acid arrows...

    Maybe I'm the only one who embarrassingly never noticed that, but perhaps someone should put it into the "Did you know?" thread.

    So, thanks a lot for very useful information!

    It's not quite that good. You can't get into the inventory - but you can chuck things into it from a distance ;).

    I see, about giving them heavy items. But then how can you change the weapon for a weaker one? Can you drop something right into their weapon slots?
    In the EE at least, you can pick the weapon slot you want to replace. Same goes for equipment slots.

    @semiticgoddess I'm not sure what you mean. If the character is confused you can't access the inventory directly, though you can get others to put things into the main inventory of the confused person (but not their quick slots). Are you suggesting use of scripts or something to get a confused person to equip a new weapon after passing it to them?

    ArviaStummvonBordwehr
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,618
    Well, with Horror and Confusion (Chaos) spells, it takes some time for the projectile to reach your characters. What I usually do when I'm afraid of bad consequences, eg. during the Ducal Palace fight, is taking off weapons BEFORE the spell hits my characters. They might save against it, they might not, but at least in case they don't, they can't harm anyone (doing only non-lethal attacks with fists). Well, unless you have a monk in the party.

    AerakarGrond0Wise_GrimwaldArvia
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,801
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Arvia wrote: »
    Grond0 wrote: »
    Arvia wrote: »
    I believe that it would have been game over. There are alternatives to blocking. You can put heavy armour in the confused character's backpack so that they can't move. Of course you still have to stop innocent characters moving within range of the confused one. Web, grease etc. can be used for that.

    I never even considered that it's possible to access a confused person 's inventory. Giving them something heavy to make them stop moving never occurred to me. That's going to be extremely useful in the future! Also that you can still switch their weapons... few things are worse than a confused character with acid arrows...

    Maybe I'm the only one who embarrassingly never noticed that, but perhaps someone should put it into the "Did you know?" thread.

    So, thanks a lot for very useful information!

    It's not quite that good. You can't get into the inventory - but you can chuck things into it from a distance ;).

    I see, about giving them heavy items. But then how can you change the weapon for a weaker one? Can you drop something right into their weapon slots?
    In the EE at least, you can pick the weapon slot you want to replace. Same goes for equipment slots.

    @semiticgoddess I'm not sure what you mean. If the character is confused you can't access the inventory directly, though you can get others to put things into the main inventory of the confused person (but not their quick slots). Are you suggesting use of scripts or something to get a confused person to equip a new weapon after passing it to them?
    I don't know about quick slots specifically. But I do remember just being to swap out rings and weapons. It's not possible to remove an item from a confused character, but it is possible to replace an item by giving them an item from another character, swapping them.

    StummvonBordwehr
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