Its a bunch of hookie. If people are going to complain about balance then we need to remove unrestricted resting, about 2/3rds of the mages spellbook, multiclassing, dual-classing, get rid of Bards and Berserkers altogether, Insect Swarma and Nature's Beauty need to go, etc. The game description always stated that oils of speed doubled apr and nodoby complained then. Its more likely that the there was an error with the coding than an error with the item description.
we need to remove unrestricted resting mage spellbook should not be changed but bg2 spells should be only made accessible later in bg:ee, more towards the end of the game dual classing should be improved to allow dualing into a kit bards should work the way they do in IWD berserkers can be nerfed a bit imho druid spells - nah, not op
Not when people complain about the "balance". If oil of speed is so unacceptably powerful, then there at least a dozen examples of things more powerful.
@ThacoBell Don't you think getting Improved Haste in BG1 against Sarevok and Drizzt, resulting in you hitting more frequently than they do, is too much?
@ThacoBell Don't you think getting Improved Haste in BG1 against Sarevok and Drizzt, resulting in you hitting more frequently than they do, is too much?
No, not really. Especially not when much easier ways of fighting them exist.
sarevok is in fact most vulnerable to a flurry of physical attacks and can be killed quickly and reliably with a strong warrior squad, so oil of speed can simulate this for a party that has, say, only one or two strong meleers
The idea is that this is a 20 year old game with a fan base who know it inside and out and adore it the way it is, so changing things around arbitrarily should be avoided. The core game should offer the genuine experience, and tweaks like this should be left up to mods.
The idea is that this is a 20 year old game with a fan base who know it inside and out and adore it the way it is, so changing things around arbitrarily should be avoided. The core game should offer the genuine experience, and tweaks like this should be left up to mods.
Its not an arbitrary tweak. Its fixing the potion to match the game description. Everything in the game tells you that potions of speed double APR.
Its not an arbitrary tweak. Its fixing the potion to match the game description. Everything in the game tells you that potions of speed double APR.
That's true, but it never did double your APR in either game. It said it did, but it didn't. +1 APR is how it's always worked.
And? The giving the potion double APR fixed that.
I suppose I disagree with your approach because I assign more value to the experiences of the players who have been playing the game over the past 20 years (myself included) than what the original intent of the developers was 20 years ago. To put it more simply, I care more about what the game is than what it was meant to be.
But I do realize that my preference in this regard is highly subjective, so no hard feelings if we can't agree on this one specific thing.
Do we have any information about which one is suppose to be correct ? Yes typo in description do happen, but it also happen that a dev make an item then change it's effect and forgot to update the description.
Do we have any information about which one is suppose to be correct ? Yes typo in description do happen, but it also happen that a dev make an item then change it's effect and forgot to update the description.
These conflicts between what a spell/item actually does vs. what the description claims are pretty common. Our first concern is usually to try and figure out what was intended; in the absence of that then we look at which fix makes more sense.
We created our own problem here by leaping before thinking, but that's also why we listen to feedback and the testers. Had we simply said we fixed the Oil's descript we would have gotten a few "wait, it never did that?" posts and moved on, instead of essentially teasing players with a massive power boost and then yoinking it away.
In this case given the widespread placement of the item, its already powerful effects, its common availability in stores, its price, and the fact that it's already one of the most used items in combat, made us believe that the best approach is to leave the item effects as they are and update the description to make it accurate.
I have a revolutionary idea which is very much "thinking outside the box"; let's just add a potion of cheetah speed into the game files, with only a few obtainable in SoD, none in BG1 and plenty in BG2. Problem solved. :P
Edit: I was so amazed by my own genius I forgot to add that this potion of cheetah speed should give the user improved haste and let's keep the old potion as a regular haste.
Do we have any information about which one is suppose to be correct ? Yes typo in description do happen, but it also happen that a dev make an item then change it's effect and forgot to update the description.
descriptions have been stronger than existing functionality historically. here is a rare example of the description being patently wrong; what was meant is that the oil doubles your APR from 1 to 2, but higher APRs than 1 had been overlooked by the writer of the description.
i can't be 100% sure about this of course, but i'm ~95% sure
@Adul I've been playing since BG first came out (I still have the original 5 cds somewhere), the irony is that I always trusted the item description and believed that I was getting double apr. To not only learn that oils are actually much less useful than I thought all these years, but then to have them fixed and then yanked away is INCREDIBLY frustrating.
@Adul I've been playing since BG first came out (I still have the original 5 cds somewhere), the irony is that I always trusted the item description and believed that I was getting double apr. To not only learn that oils are actually much less useful than I thought all these years, but then to have them fixed and then yanked away is INCREDIBLY frustrating.
Hey, I can understand that. We've had different experiences with the game. I've been using the Oil of Speed all these years knowing it gave +1 APR, and I wasn't even aware that the description was wrong until this change came up in the patch notes. I probably read the description once many years ago, and then forgot what it said later.
I know BG doesn’t always adhere to PNP RAW, but 2ed DMG says,
“A potion of speed increases the movement and combat capabilities of the imbiber by 100%. Thus, a movement rate of 9 becomes 18, and a character normally able to attack once per round attacks twice. This does not reduce spellcasting time, however.”
@Adul I've been playing since BG first came out (I still have the original 5 cds somewhere), the irony is that I always trusted the item description and believed that I was getting double apr. To not only learn that oils are actually much less useful than I thought all these years, but then to have them fixed and then yanked away is INCREDIBLY frustrating.
There's a lot of things the game lies about, mostly in spell descriptions because they were most likely copy-pasted over from the Player's Handbook.
-Grease allows those who save successfully to move at normal speed when the spell description says they move slowly. -invisibility allows one to disarm traps and open doors and stay invisible despite the description specifically forbidding these. -Stinking Cloud doesn't KO an enemy for 1d2 rounds, its always 9 seconds (meaning a KO'd enemy will have to save again or be KO'd further; the same applies to Web and its hold effect lasting 7 seconds). -The Cure Wounds line of spells can affect anything despite its descriptions stating that incorporeal, non-living, and extraplanar creatures are immune (unless you have aTweaks installed...) -You don't actually throw Magic Stones like other magically-created weapons and they don't count as +1 either; it is simply a direct-damage spell that might as well be a Lesser Magic Missile. -You cannot Bless yourself while in Sanctuary because Bless is a "target any point in range" spell like Fireball, which breaks a Sanctuary. -You don't need to stop to concentrate for Find Traps to work. -Call Lightning strikes once per round every 4 levels, not once/turn/4 levels. -Glyph of Warding is not party-friendly despite its description stating that only unauthorized or hostile creatures will set off the glyph. -Mental Domination works exactly the same as the mage spell Domination, despite its flavor text indicating otherwise. -Protection from Evil 10' Radius actually has a 30' radius (or a 15' radius if @CamDawg is correct about every instance of "radius" in spell descriptions needing to be changed to "diameter.") -Insect Plague affects every creature in 30 ft. of its initial target; it is not limited to only 6 creatures. -The Animal Summoning line of spells don't only conjure animals that are in visual range.
And these are just examples I had on-hand at PlayItHardcore's spell entries. There's bound to be more; the game lies all the time, which is why I find NearInfinity to be so useful. If you're unsure, you can check an item/spell/innate to see what it actually does.
@Adul I've been playing since BG first came out (I still have the original 5 cds somewhere), the irony is that I always trusted the item description and believed that I was getting double apr. To not only learn that oils are actually much less useful than I thought all these years, but then to have them fixed and then yanked away is INCREDIBLY frustrating.
Hey, I can understand that. We've had different experiences with the game. I've been using the Oil of Speed all these years knowing it gave +1 APR, and I wasn't even aware that the description was wrong until this change came up in the patch notes. I probably read the description once many years ago, and then forgot what it said later.
I may be completely wrong here, I'm not so good with all the mechanics of the game, but haven't the original oil of speed (and haste spell) only added APR up to the next full APR; meaning if you were on a half APR, the effect only brings you up the next full APR, ie 1, 2, 3 etc and not 3/2, 5/2.
Example I am level 7 fighter with 1,5 (3/2) APR using a weapon I'm not specialized in or a specialized fighter below level 7, when drinking a potion I get 2 APR, not 2,5 (5/2).
EDIT: Guys, don't give me any insightfuls until this has been debunked/confirmed! I'm writing from work and from memory and cannot test and confirm any of the above, hence my "disclaimer".
@Adul I've been playing since BG first came out (I still have the original 5 cds somewhere), the irony is that I always trusted the item description and believed that I was getting double apr. To not only learn that oils are actually much less useful than I thought all these years, but then to have them fixed and then yanked away is INCREDIBLY frustrating.
Hey, I can understand that. We've had different experiences with the game. I've been using the Oil of Speed all these years knowing it gave +1 APR, and I wasn't even aware that the description was wrong until this change came up in the patch notes. I probably read the description once many years ago, and then forgot what it said later.
I may be completely wrong here, I'm not so good with all the mechanics of the game, but haven't the original oil of speed (and haste spell) only added APR up to the next full APR; meaning if you were on a half APR, the effect only brings you up the next full APR, ie 1, 2, 3 etc and not 3/2, 5/2.
Example I am level 7 fighter with 1,5 (3/2) APR using a weapon I'm not specialized in or a specialized fighter below level 7, when drinking a potion I get 2 APR, not 2,5 (5/2).
Interesting, I can't say I've ever noticed that. In which game(s) was that the case, do you know?
BG1 primarely, but as stated above it's from memory (and my memory cannot always (rarely?) be trusted!). Take this with a grain of salt until someone more knowledgeble can answer.
The idea is that this is a 20 year old game with a fan base who know it inside and out and adore it the way it is, so changing things around arbitrarily should be avoided. The core game should offer the genuine experience, and tweaks like this should be left up to mods.
The idea is that this is a 20 year old game with a fan base who know it inside and out and adore it the way it is, so changing things around arbitrarily should be avoided. The core game should offer the genuine experience, and tweaks like this should be left up to mods.
Thanks!
I still don't consider this a "tweak", its bringing an effect up to date with existing documentation. The oil speeds habing double apr is more faithful to the core game.
Technically, it would be the most faithful to the core game if the potion continued to give +1 APR, but its description continued to say that it gave double APR. :P
Technically, it would be the most faithful to the core game if the potion continued to give +1 APR, but its description continued to say that it gave double APR. :P
But thats inconsistent with all the documentation of the original game. Programming errors are more likely than a suspiciously consistent description typo that otherwise has no grammar errors, and somehow was never corrected in all these years.
For original BG there were no kits or fighting styles, "double attacks" was a fancy way of saying in text that you get +1 APR, as it is more flavorful to read descriptive text than game mechanics. This naturally missed a few corners, such a darts that no-one used at 3 APR, and the more widely used bows. Fighters getting specialization and extra attacks were deep enough into the game that the flavor worked, and no-one got hung up on the mechanics.
The difference would be pronounced in BGEE, and we seem more focused on game mechanics than flavor these days - so fixing the text is entirely the correct response as far as I am concerned (but no surprise, as I am quoted in the original rationale as one of many preferring this change).
Comments
mage spellbook should not be changed but bg2 spells should be only made accessible later in bg:ee, more towards the end of the game
dual classing should be improved to allow dualing into a kit
bards should work the way they do in IWD
berserkers can be nerfed a bit imho
druid spells - nah, not op
well there you go
all totally unrelated subjects to oil of speed
But I do realize that my preference in this regard is highly subjective, so no hard feelings if we can't agree on this one specific thing.
We created our own problem here by leaping before thinking, but that's also why we listen to feedback and the testers. Had we simply said we fixed the Oil's descript we would have gotten a few "wait, it never did that?" posts and moved on, instead of essentially teasing players with a massive power boost and then yoinking it away.
In this case given the widespread placement of the item, its already powerful effects, its common availability in stores, its price, and the fact that it's already one of the most used items in combat, made us believe that the best approach is to leave the item effects as they are and update the description to make it accurate.
Edit: I was so amazed by my own genius I forgot to add that this potion of cheetah speed should give the user improved haste and let's keep the old potion as a regular haste.
i can't be 100% sure about this of course, but i'm ~95% sure
“A potion of speed increases the movement and combat capabilities of the imbiber by 100%. Thus, a movement rate of 9 becomes 18, and a character normally able to attack once per round attacks twice. This does not reduce spellcasting time, however.”
Case closed ;-)
-invisibility allows one to disarm traps and open doors and stay invisible despite the description specifically forbidding these.
-Stinking Cloud doesn't KO an enemy for 1d2 rounds, its always 9 seconds (meaning a KO'd enemy will have to save again or be KO'd further; the same applies to Web and its hold effect lasting 7 seconds).
-The Cure Wounds line of spells can affect anything despite its descriptions stating that incorporeal, non-living, and extraplanar creatures are immune (unless you have aTweaks installed...)
-You don't actually throw Magic Stones like other magically-created weapons and they don't count as +1 either; it is simply a direct-damage spell that might as well be a Lesser Magic Missile.
-You cannot Bless yourself while in Sanctuary because Bless is a "target any point in range" spell like Fireball, which breaks a Sanctuary.
-You don't need to stop to concentrate for Find Traps to work.
-Call Lightning strikes once per round every 4 levels, not once/turn/4 levels.
-Glyph of Warding is not party-friendly despite its description stating that only unauthorized or hostile creatures will set off the glyph.
-Mental Domination works exactly the same as the mage spell Domination, despite its flavor text indicating otherwise.
-Protection from Evil 10' Radius actually has a 30' radius (or a 15' radius if @CamDawg is correct about every instance of "radius" in spell descriptions needing to be changed to "diameter.")
-Insect Plague affects every creature in 30 ft. of its initial target; it is not limited to only 6 creatures.
-The Animal Summoning line of spells don't only conjure animals that are in visual range.
And these are just examples I had on-hand at PlayItHardcore's spell entries. There's bound to be more; the game lies all the time, which is why I find NearInfinity to be so useful. If you're unsure, you can check an item/spell/innate to see what it actually does.
Example I am level 7 fighter with 1,5 (3/2) APR using a weapon I'm not specialized in or a specialized fighter below level 7, when drinking a potion I get 2 APR, not 2,5 (5/2).
EDIT: Guys, don't give me any insightfuls until this has been debunked/confirmed! I'm writing from work and from memory and cannot test and confirm any of the above, hence my "disclaimer".
The difference would be pronounced in BGEE, and we seem more focused on game mechanics than flavor these days - so fixing the text is entirely the correct response as far as I am concerned (but no surprise, as I am quoted in the original rationale as one of many preferring this change).