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jRPG's aren't RPGs.

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  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996

    To mention for example Guts from Berserk.

    Never a match for Evil Otto.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,693
    NO ONE is a match for Evil Otto.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,066
    edited June 2018
    Chuck Norris >>>> All. he can kill two stones with a bird

    Now seriously, my point is just that most jRPG protagonists have no reason to be strong. Is not like Geralt who since his childhood suffered a harsh training and "alchemical mutations" with high mortality rate, Geralt stooping a 80 m/s arrow with his bare hands isn't like a androgynous teenager who grow up in a happy farm becoming capable of destroying god-like creatures.

    Daelyn75
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,693

    Chuck Norris >>>> All. he can kill two stones with a bird

    Now seriously, my point is just that most jRPG protagonists have no reason to be strong. Is not like Geralt who since his childhood suffered a harsh training and "alchemical mutations" with high mortality rate, Geralt stooping a 80 m/s arrow with his bare hands isn't like a androgynous teenager who grow up in a happy farm becoming capable of destroying god-like creatures.

    FIRENDSHIP AND DETERMINATION! <3

    Seriously though, there is no good reason why ANY RPG protaganist can pull off the crap they can singlehanded. Also, Geralt is a boring Mary Sue with all the personality of white bread.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,495
    you keep useing person with big sword so your talking about cloud. well he does have a reason for why he is like that. he was infused with mako.

    alot of jrpgs have explanations for why they can fight. some are military trained, others are infused with magic, or self taught in the case of tales games.

    ThacoBellmashedtaters
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,066
    ThacoBell said:


    Chuck Norris >>>> All. he can kill two stones with a bird

    Now seriously, my point is just that most jRPG protagonists have no reason to be strong. Is not like Geralt who since his childhood suffered a harsh training and "alchemical mutations" with high mortality rate, Geralt stooping a 80 m/s arrow with his bare hands isn't like a androgynous teenager who grow up in a happy farm becoming capable of destroying god-like creatures.

    FIRENDSHIP AND DETERMINATION! <3

    Seriously though, there is no good reason why ANY RPG protaganist can pull off the crap they can singlehanded. Also, Geralt is a boring Mary Sue with all the personality of white bread.</p>
    Geralt fell much more human than a perfect good hero. He have his flaws and is not a "mary sue". Is he starts the game able to fight like no one and cast stronger spells than sorcerers who dedicated decades of life studying magic, then he will be a "mary sue", like a recent star wars protagonist who learn how to pilot millennium falcon better than han solo...

    you keep useing person with big sword so your talking about cloud. well he does have a reason for why he is like that. he was infused with mako.

    alot of jrpgs have explanations for why they can fight. some are military trained, others are infused with magic, or self taught in the case of tales games.

    Thanks, thats explain a lot. But honestly, when someone talk about jRPG protagonist, the first image who comes into my mind is something like this


    source https://skeddles.deviantart.com/art/Legend-of-Krys-662387235

    But as i've said, maybe there are a jRPG for me. Honestly, i never was a mmorpg fan until i tried age of conan. Now i have a lv 80 demonologist and a lv 70 necromancer. The game even have a explanation to "revive" and is not only a justification without use on story. Instead of killing 50000 times the same mob, there are hundreds of quests to complete... Maybe there are a jRPG for me.

    But honestly, i like NWN/BG/IWD exactly because you can be whatever you like.

    typo_tillymashedtatersDaelyn75
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,495
    that picture is more a party member in a jrpg then a main character.

    ThacoBelltypo_tillymashedtaters
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    edited June 2018
    Yeah! The main character wouldn't smile like that!

    Sorry. :3 Just thinking of the stereotypical mopey protagonist.

    ThacoBellmashedtatersDaelyn75
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,495
    edited June 2018
    he is reminding me alot of agate from trails in the sky.


    typo_tilly
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    edited June 2018
    He's smiling too much! Stop it! >:c

    Also, I need to play Trails in the Sky 2 again. :D Think I'm one quarter through. :)

    mashedtaters
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    edited June 2018
    I've always viewed the original Wizardry series as combat simulators. I love creating different characters and parties in Wizardry 8. But there's little role-playing in them. Aren't a lot of older RPGs like that? JRPGs, strongly influenced by early WRPGs, started out like that (FF1), but they grew to be more focused on stories with fixed, pre-made characters and set paths.

    Genuinely, when did we start saying that role-playing games involved making story-affecting decisions? Didn't it all just start out as creating different parties to delve into dungeons? Those are RPGs despite having no decision making available to the player.

    EDIT: It'd just be easier to have more genre and sub-genre names. *-) Like action RPGs and... JRPGs. :D

    Post edited by typo_tilly on
    ThacoBellmashedtatersNonnahswriter
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,495
    it's mostly comes down to this; alot of people take the role playing part of role playing game into consideration when saying jrpgs are not rpgs.

    to them if the game does not have choices or allow you to effect the story it's not an rpg. which is funny as that really did not start being a thing until fallout 1 in 97.

    now i know what your about to say " but mike what about ultima or other older rpgs?"

    if you don't play as anything other then a pure good guy in ultima from 4 onwards, your not winning the game. as it penalizes you for doing evil. now some would say this is roleplaying but no if you don't do what the game wants you to do which is be the good guy you arnt finishing it.

    all the other classic rpgs from that era were dungeon crawlers. the only choice you had was class building.

    what people consider wrpgs today did not start until the late 90's where they changed focus and actually had roleplaying.

    ThacoBellmashedtatersNonnahswriterDaelyn75
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,066
    edited June 2018

    it's mostly comes down to this; alot of people take the role playing part of role playing game into consideration when saying jrpgs are not rpgs.

    to them if the game does not have choices or allow you to effect the story it's not an rpg. which is funny as that really did not start being a thing until fallout 1 in 97.

    now i know what your about to say " but mike what about ultima or other older rpgs?"

    if you don't play as anything other then a pure good guy in ultima from 4 onwards, your not winning the game. as it penalizes you for doing evil. now some would say this is roleplaying but no if you don't do what the game wants you to do which is be the good guy you arnt finishing it.

    all the other classic rpgs from that era were dungeon crawlers. the only choice you had was class building.

    what people consider wrpgs today did not start until the late 90's where they changed focus and actually had roleplaying.

    As i've said, it was more due hardware and budget limitations than a wRPG fault. And even if you look to Ultima 1(1981), there are character creation, but since the HW started to evolve, choices and consequences was added to wRPGs. The fact that one game din't allowed you to role play as a evil character doesn't means that is a fault present in the entire genre. And note that in your game, the character is penalized by being evil. On jRPG's, you have no choice.



    I had problems with MMORPG's until i played Age of Conan. You can level up questing instead of killing 5000 times the same mob. There are no ballet choreography(rotating 3 times before each strike) on the melee combat, good character customization, amazing dungeons and raids are amazing, Mature theme/atmosphere, etc; is the unique MMORPG that i reached max level on my life(lv 80 demonologist and took 150 hours), sure, the game faults in some aspects. For example, i an a demonologist and i can easily walk with a Succubus and a Imp pet in in Tarantia(Aquilonian city), despite the fact that sorcery is persecuted on Aquilonian society and i an obvious a sorcerer.

    Maybe i will found a a jRPG with a more mature story and a non cliche teenager swordsman protagonist in a hero's journey. There are any?

    Daelyn75
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 948

    Yeah! The main character wouldn't talk like that!

    Fixxed for you.

    Honestly I never got into Final Fantasy games aside from FF6. There was Chrono Trigger, and the Shining Series (more turn based squad-level tactical strategy than RPG though).

    Aside from Final Fantasy, I don't recall instances of stupidly huge swords.

    it's mostly comes down to this; alot of people take the role playing part of role playing game into consideration when saying jrpgs are not rpgs.

    to them if the game does not have choices or allow you to effect the story it's not an rpg. which is funny as that really did not start being a thing until fallout 1 in 97.

    Well, no. Chrono Trigger I mentioned above had multiple endings, and even had subtlety to those endings as well. Such as if you didn't do X, then the relative Z of Party Character Y would do A in the endings. If you did, then Z would do B. You practically have to read a walkthrough to have known the difference since it doesn't really affect anything, except your and Y's psyches if you fail to do X and you realize some rather horrific backstory...

    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,066

    )(...)
    Well, no. Chrono Trigger I mentioned above had multiple endings, and even had subtlety to those endings as well. Such as if you didn't do X, then the relative Z of Party Character Y would do A in the endings. If you did, then Z would do B. You practically have to read a walkthrough to have known the difference since it doesn't really affect anything, except your and Y's psyches if you fail to do X and you realize some rather horrific backstory...

    Honestly, this Chrono Trigger looks interesting. I have read a review by curiosity and looks good. The story apparently evolves time travel, can i create the MC and party?

    Daelyn75
  • mashedtatersmashedtaters Member Posts: 2,243
    edited June 2018

    well he does have a reason for why he is like that. he was infused with mako.

    @megamike15

    I am infused with mayo.

    :D

    For me, it’s not the linearity of the JRPGs, or even that you’re boxed into one type of protagonist and only one story. I love IWD, and both of those games have those qualities.

    I just feel that once you’ve played one JRPG, you’ve played them all. They’re all basically the same, with the exact same combat-turn mechanics, the basic same plot, the basic same character stereotypes, and the same type of villains.

    The stories are all different between JRPGs, and some of them have wonderful depth to them, and are gripping and keep you on the edge of the seat. I love dragon quest 5... but I just couldn’t quite finish it because I got so bored of smashing the a button just to advance the plot. I’d rather read a book. At least that way I don’t have to grind just to turn the page.

  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 8,907

    )(...)
    Well, no. Chrono Trigger I mentioned above had multiple endings, and even had subtlety to those endings as well. Such as if you didn't do X, then the relative Z of Party Character Y would do A in the endings. If you did, then Z would do B. You practically have to read a walkthrough to have known the difference since it doesn't really affect anything, except your and Y's psyches if you fail to do X and you realize some rather horrific backstory...

    Honestly, this Chrono Trigger looks interesting. I have read a review by curiosity and looks good. The story apparently evolves time travel, can i create the MC and party?
    No, but it is, without question THE best JRPG that has ever been made, and it isn't even close. It is probably the 2nd best game made for the SNES period, depending on how much you value Link to the Past. It's the apex of the genre and nothing before or since has ever come remotely close.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,066
    edited June 2018

    )(...)
    Well, no. Chrono Trigger I mentioned above had multiple endings, and even had subtlety to those endings as well. Such as if you didn't do X, then the relative Z of Party Character Y would do A in the endings. If you did, then Z would do B. You practically have to read a walkthrough to have known the difference since it doesn't really affect anything, except your and Y's psyches if you fail to do X and you realize some rather horrific backstory...

    Honestly, this Chrono Trigger looks interesting. I have read a review by curiosity and looks good. The story apparently evolves time travel, can i create the MC and party?
    No, but it is, without question THE best JRPG that has ever been made, and it isn't even close. It is probably the 2nd best game made for the SNES period, depending on how much you value Link to the Past. It's the apex of the genre and nothing before or since has ever come remotely close.
    There are one jRPG without a swordman as MC? If you consider Dirge of Cerberus, but Dirge of Cerberus is a mix between shooter and jRPG...

    well he does have a reason for why he is like that. he was infused with mako.

    @megamike15

    I am infused with mayo.

    :D

    For me, it’s not the linearity of the JRPGs, or even that you’re boxed into one type of protagonist and only one story. I love IWD, and both of those games have those qualities.

    I just feel that once you’ve played one JRPG, you’ve played them all. They’re all basically the same, with the exact same combat-turn mechanics, the basic same plot, the basic same character stereotypes, and the same type of villains.

    The stories are all different between JRPGs, and some of them have wonderful depth to them, and are gripping and keep you on the edge of the seat. I love dragon quest 5... but I just couldn’t quite finish it because I got so bored of smashing the a button just to advance the plot. I’d rather read a book. At least that way I don’t have to grind just to turn the page.
    This remembered the video that they posted on this topic



    I will ask again. There are a jRPG without a swordsman main character? Can be a shooter, archer, elementarist mage, priest, druid, warlock, i said that i never liked a jRPG, but is 7th saga a jRPG? If yes, then my problem is not linearity and i was wrong in consider all jRPG as "non RPG", in fact i only don't like then because play as a swordman isn't a thing that attracts me much, in 7th saga, i can be a demon, cyborg, elf mage, etc and the game is very linear. Honestly, if they remove all non melee characters from nwn, i will not like nwn and nwn is my favorie rpg...

    Post edited by SorcererV1ct0r on
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,839

    I will ask again. There are a jRPG without a swordsman main character?

    Yes. For instance, the protagonist(s) of the JTRPG franchise Utawarerumono uses a tessen (iron fan). The best game story ever written in my book, leaving even PST in the dust. And each game of the trilogy is well over 50 hours long to boot. A shame it's so overwhelming underappreciated in the west.

    ThacoBell
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,495
    edited June 2018
    Estelle Bright from the first two trails in the sky games uses a staff

    Kevin Graham from the 3rd uses a cross bow

    all the main characters from the mother series uses a baseball bat

    the main chracter of suikoden 1,2 and 5 don't use a sword

    you start out with a sword in persona 3 but you can use other weapons unless your plying the psp version

    of course theres pokemon.

    fei from xenogears uses his fists and kung fu

    and shion from xenosaga uses an arm canon

    Post edited by megamike15 on
    semiticgodThacoBellSorcererV1ct0rNonnahswriter
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,693

    )(...)
    Well, no. Chrono Trigger I mentioned above had multiple endings, and even had subtlety to those endings as well. Such as if you didn't do X, then the relative Z of Party Character Y would do A in the endings. If you did, then Z would do B. You practically have to read a walkthrough to have known the difference since it doesn't really affect anything, except your and Y's psyches if you fail to do X and you realize some rather horrific backstory...

    Honestly, this Chrono Trigger looks interesting. I have read a review by curiosity and looks good. The story apparently evolves time travel, can i create the MC and party?
    No, but it is, without question THE best JRPG that has ever been made, and it isn't even close. It is probably the 2nd best game made for the SNES period, depending on how much you value Link to the Past. It's the apex of the genre and nothing before or since has ever come remotely close.
    I counter with Earthbound. It broke ALL of the already well established JRPG conventions. The Mother series is my second favorite series of all time, and paved the way for some of the best gaming in recent years (Undertale, Lisa, etc.)

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,495
    chrono trigger is placed on a pedestal by alot of people. while i enjoy the game [ heck i played it just recently after that last patch for the steam version.] there are alot of rpgs i like more then it.

    ThacoBell
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,066
    Thanks for the list but except the "arm canon", everyone is a melee fighter...

    You confirmed that i was wrong. jRPGs are RPG's and my problem with then isn't the linearity or lack of mature story is just that i don't like play with melee characters. If there aren't arcane/divine caster classes on NWN, i will probably not like NWN... That is why the linearity of Dirge of Cerberus wasen't a problem for me. Is probably the unique FF game that i've enjoyed.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,693
    @SorcererV1ct0r Star Ocean 2 has two selectable protags. One of them is a mage type. (may be a white mage though)

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,066
    edited June 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    @SorcererV1ct0r Star Ocean 2 has two selectable protags. One of them is a mage type. (may be a white mage though)

    Yes, but protagonists apparently are gender locked(searched a gameplay on yt), honestly, i don't like the majority of protagonists on anime too but there are a minority of protagonists that i like(eg Kazuma from Kaze no Stigma).

    Anime and RPG are different. One thing is watch a boring protagonist, other thing is role play a boring protagonist.To make me drop a anime, the main character needs to be insanely annoying like Asta from Black Clover. I gibed a second change but was cheering for the villains, despite the fact that the MC never loses in a generic shonen... Asta is just the incarnation of the most irritant "Generi-Kun". And Black Clover have a lot of potential, for example. Without Asta and Yuno as MC, a talented mage trying to make his way to the top in aristocratic world and some nobles being the Villains using rebels who hate the kingdom to self benefit.

    I understand why people like jRPG. People who have no problem role playing a boring character or don't think that the character is boring can enjoy the game... Honestly, i was wrong. jRPGs are RPG games, i just don't like then because the main character.

    Post edited by SorcererV1ct0r on
  • SquireSquire Member Posts: 512



    I understand why people like jRPG. People who have no problem role playing a boring character or don't think that the character is boring can enjoy the game... Honestly, i was wrong. jRPGs are RPG games, i just don't like then because the main character.

    I feel the same way, tbh, I find it difficult to get through a game if I don't like the protagonist. You have to spend the entirity of the game in this person's shoes, so if you can't identify with him (or her but, as you say, it's usually a him in these games), it's going to make it difficult.

    I also agree about the whole teenager thing, although tbf, I think that's partly because fantasy RPGs are usually based on the medieval period, which is a time in which you were basically a man at, like, 12, and 40 was considered venerable. :lol:

    I don't play JRPGs either, but for me it's mainly the whole anime-style look and feel that puts me off. I'm just not a fan of that style, and prefer things to look a bit more... well, medieval. I found Dragon Age's armour sets difficult to deal with.

    mashedtatersSorcererV1ct0r
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    I like both types of RPGs. And you're in the wrong here, since the definition of RPG you give does not exclude (all) JRPGs.

    P.S. The G in RPG stands for game. Therefore saying "RPG game" is silly and superfluous.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,495
    it seems the ops real issue is less jrpgs and more that he finds the main characters boring. while i disagree as there are alot of well developed ones. i don't see how this is any different from wrpgs where besides chracters like Geralt. most are black slates ment to be you.

    mashedtatersThacoBellKamigoroshiNonnahswriter
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 11,693
    I mean, if you don't like the character you are forced to play as, yeah that can kill the fun. JRPG protags are not all the same though. I'm sure you can find one you can get behind. Maybe if the op posts a some bullet points of things they want and things that are deal breakers, we can help them find a game?

    mashedtaters
This discussion has been closed.