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jRPG's aren't RPGs.

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  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,855
    ...I know that this is going to sound stupid as hell saying such a "superiorler than thou" think right after your comment, but I think the problem is that don't think you understand the concept of maturity very well. None of the things you listed pertained to maturity in themselves.

  • Dev6Dev6 Member Posts: 719
    I... Didn't explain myself properly, apparently. I was agreeing with you, that most games aren't mature. The examples I posted are things that I've seem being claimed as mature when in fact they are not.
    Being "dark and gritty" isn't mature either, that's another one that usually gets confused.

    scriverThacoBell
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    So what does in fact constitute mature content

    ThacoBell
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,738
    Dev6 said:

    scriver said:

    But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, a melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.

    Most rpgs aren't very mature, period. Most games aren't either.
    I have yet to understand what people mean by games being mature. Is GTA mature because you can shoot people in the face? Is The Witcher mature because you can get the main character laid with every female you encounter? Is VtMB mature because you can find a guy getting a blowjob behind a church?
    How is being an elf mage more "mature" than being a teenager with spiky hair and a big sword?
    Really seems to me like people use mature as an adjective for the sole purpose of making themselves feel superior.
    It's considered mature because of the elements of sex is more demonized in the states than violence. It's ok for a teen to watch something explode or bodily harm caused to another because you can add arbitrary justification to it, ea he is evil. But they can't add arbitrary justification to seeing someone getting a bj on a club scene of a game, or they just dont want to try and explain what it is to their kids anyways. @Dev6

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,288
    edited July 2018
    I never understood the "mature" moniker either. Most examples that people point to as "mature" (witcher for example) seem extremely childish to me.

    @FinneousPJ Good question. Would something approximating real life be considered mature? Who's life? I find the content of most teen rated games to be far more tonally realistic when compared to my life, so more teen games comes across to me as more mature than "mature" titles. Is rating maturity? Some people seem to think so, but copious mounts of sex and swearing comes across as what a teenager would think is "mature" to me.

    You know what, I think this is a good idea. Let's post what we think is "mature".

    For me, real life is neither "mature" or "childish", it just is. So going too far in either direction is bad. As an example, I think the BG series does a good example of this. You the have the goofy (Minsc, Jan, all the little dialogue easter eggs), the serious (most of the main plot), and the tragic (a lot of little subplots have downright depressing resolutions). But the games never focus on one aspect overmuch. Its balanced, much like real life. So I find BG to be one of the most "mature" RPGs out there. Another good sign of maturity in storytelling is having realistic consequences for actions, or treating difficult subjects with the serious and nuanced tone they deserve (this last one seems to be fairly rare in games).

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    edited July 2018
    Dev6 said:

    scriver said:

    But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, an melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.

    Most rpgs aren't very mature, period. Most games aren't either.
    I have yet to understand what people mean by games being mature. Is GTA mature because you can shoot people in the face? Is The Witcher mature because you can get the main character laid with every female you encounter? Is VtMB mature because you can find a guy getting a blowjob behind a church?
    How is being an elf mage more "mature" than being a teenager with spiky hair and a big sword?
    Really seems to me like people use mature as an adjective for the sole purpose of making themselves feel superior.
    Sexual content is just one thing of "mature content". if you look to Ecchi animes, most of then aren't mature despite the sexual content. But Berserk is an example of a mature story. Have sexual connotations and violence? Yes, but have an amazing world building, amazing character building and a complex story of Guts, the peak of human strength fighting against his own destiny and trying to reach creatures high above the human capability, nobility, jealously, war for power, sacrifice, torture...

    * GTA is mature because it explore the "crime culture" and the crime underworld and the story is very mature. Instead of "good vs evil" GTA explores corruption, asks why someone go to the crime, etc
    * Witcher is mature because you are a monster slayer who have his reason to be how he is, it explores religious fanaticism, racism towards elves/dwarves, hard decisions to take, etc
    * VtMB explores not only the "night world", but have a depth lore with each clan having his story, the conflicts that it raises, etc

    About the elf mage, depends. In Arcanum, you can be an elf mage with Dark Elf background who hates technology, considering technology something who disrupts the nature and is very racists towards humans, gnomes and orcs. It will change how a lot of NPC's will threat you. Elves in D&D have a complex different story and lore. Also, you can create a very mature story of an half-elf who is hated among humans and among elves and was born by a unwilling mother and not necessary become a hero, but become good for certain groups and bad for others.

    Here is a teenager swordsman in a mature story. Why? Because Guts becomed stronger trough hard train, harsh childhood, then becomes a mercenary, then saw a lot of things who i will not spoil, not because a princess visited a small village and said that he is the chosen one and only fight against evil because is the right think to do.

  • ArdanisArdanis Member Posts: 1,716

    So what does in fact constitute mature content

    Problems that adult people get to deal with in the real world and can recognize the reflection of those in fiction, which adolescents can't really do.

    Boobs, drugs and guts constitute teen content, since these are things they can understand and think those are marks of adulthood.

    semiticgodThacoBell
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,456
    Ok so the ultimate in a mature game would be dealing with a job, bills and other people lol

    semiticgodArdanisThacoBellscriver
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    edited July 2018

    Ok so the ultimate in a mature game would be dealing with a job, bills and other people lol

    No, but the problems who will require maturity to deal in another world. For example, harsh decisions who will endup with a good outcome for certain people and bad outcome for another. On VtMB Anarquists, Camarilla, etc aren't pure good or pure bad. They just think in a different way. Morrowind have no "sexual" content and is a very mature game. Much more mature than Skyrim.

    For example, see how Asta from Black Clover is different than Guts from Berserk. Both are swordsman

    In a SCI-Fi game, an immature game will trow "cybernetic implants" because they are cool, an mature game will asks how it will affect your humanity? what is humanity? how it will impact the society? And those who by religion, moral value or poverty decides to not put the implant? How they will be treated by a high tech society? And DNA engineering? And people using implants to cheat on exams? If is a minority who take implant, they will be discriminated? And cybernetic implants with weapons? Legal in some areas, illegal in another? An mature SCI-Fi story will explore more things in that setting than "cool i have a strong mechanic arm who can shoot plasma". For sexual content, if the game jusr trow boobs is one thing. If the game explores more in depth questions like people using their body for an advantage, unwilling pregnancy, jealously and have a more in depth relationship building, then the game is a mature game IMHO.

    Post edited by SorcererV1ct0r on
    FinneousPJArdanisbatoorThacoBell
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,511

    Ok so the ultimate in a mature game would be dealing with a job, bills and other people lol

    Which would make Stardew Valley the top dog of mature games.

    FinneousPJArdanisThacoBell
  • fluke13fluke13 Member Posts: 351
    Maturity is always going to be subjective. I was watching a serious cooking program in Brazil, when suddenly a cartoony puppet bird walks into the studio and talks to the chef...I thought that was really childish, but those around me disagreed heh.

    Like with anything, if you try to make it less subjective, you have to go with media terms for mature themes, polls, regulator classifications.

    You're then left with certain subjects, like politics, sex, drugs, equality, religion, sexuality... but then another argument follows in exactly how you use those. Like smoking weed is kept very innocent in the Lord of the Rings, while GTA might show a much darker violent gang culture around drugs. At the end of the day, we can decide and set certain examples like Witcher being a "mature" game and "Fable" being less so.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    fluke13 said:

    Maturity is always going to be subjective. I was watching a serious cooking program in Brazil, when suddenly a cartoony puppet bird walks into the studio and talks to the chef...I thought that was really childish, but those around me disagreed heh.(...)

    I think that is partially objective and partially subjective. Like graphics on video games but i think that if the game apeals more to a more mature audience, the game is more mature, same for anime. Why Berserk is a Seinen and Black Clover is a Shonen?

    fluke13
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,288
    I've never seen black clover, but I think its PRETTY OBVIOUS why Berserk is a Seinen.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    ThacoBell said:

    I've never seen black clover, but I think its PRETTY OBVIOUS why Berserk is a Seinen.

    Was a retorical question,,,

  • SquireSquire Member Posts: 512
    edited July 2018
    @fluke13 to be fair, "pipeweed" in Lord of the Rings is really just a fancy name for tobacco. I don't think it's meant to actually be the Cannabis plant.

    Also, I'm just gonna throw something out there: we consider the "teenage swordsman" to be a sign of childishness, but in the medieval period, teenagers were pretty much expected to start training to fight, and if you were rich you'd get specialist sword training from a very young age, so really, a teenage swordsman isn't entirely unthinkable in a medieval-themed game. ;) (except he'd be more like Hans Capon and less like Cloud...)

    As for what makes a game "mature"... I dunno, it's a tough one. I've always considered it to be a game where the people behave like people, and not idealised characters who automatically love you and everything you do (magic is "witchcraft"/evil, adventurers are dickheads, etc).

    I think @SorcererV1ct0r has the best definition in that a "mature" game would consider how fantasy/sci-fi elements affect the rest of the world, and ask questions like "is it really 'murder' if somebody can be resurrected with little cost"? etc. I suppose I'd say Star Trek is "mature" while Star Wars is... less so.

    fluke13
  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,855
    Berserk isn't particularly mature. It's the epitome of a work that flaunts "grim and gritty" as if that makes it mature, but it isn't. It's an immature mind's idea of maturity.

    Well, maybe I shouldn't say. I've only seen the anime (the old and a handful of episodes of the new), so that's my reference. I don't know the manga.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    scriver said:

    Berserk isn't particularly mature. It's the epitome of a work that flaunts "grim and gritty" as if that makes it mature, but it isn't. It's an immature mind's idea of maturity.

    Well, maybe I shouldn't say. I've only seen the anime (the old and a handful of episodes of the new), so that's my reference. I don't know the manga.


    You can determine if a story/game is mature or not with the public. If the game/story aims for a 10-15 years old public and put elements to "please" 10-15 years old child, the game/story will not be mature as a game who focus on adults. Even if it haev poor writing, poor gameplay, etc

    About Berserk, depends what episodes you saw. But what constituites a mature story in your opinion?
    Squire said:

    Also, I'm just gonna throw something out there: we consider the "teenage swordsman" to be a sign of childishness, but in the medieval period, teenagers were pretty much expected to start training to fight, and if you were rich you'd get specialist sword training from a very young age, so really, a teenage swordsman isn't entirely unthinkable in a medieval-themed game. ;) (except he'd be more like Hans Capon and less like Cloud...)(...).

    Yes, but in medieval period, swords aren't the most used weapons in battlefield. Polearms was and you barely see any MC of a jRPG using an spears/polearms. Spears require less training and have better range, against armor, swords are very ineffective compared to for example a Danish waraxe. For NOBLE teenagers, is expected for then to be squire, not knights. See a 14 yo commoner androgynous child carrying an ludicrous oversized sword and beating an knight who trained for decades and payed for the best armor is ludicrous and breaks my suspension of disbelief. Berserk at least justify why Guts is so good. He grow up raised by mercenaries and as a adult, he is much stronger.

    But honestly, there are a lot of misconceptions on mass media, this is just one more. Other example that i never understood, bows being an DEX weapon in most games; I an 6' 1"(1,84m) tall, have broad shoulders, train everyday and .... Do accurate successive shots with an 180 lbf warbow is very hard.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,288
    @SorcererV1ct0r How do JRPGs fail to justify teenage swordsmen? Do you have any idea how many monsters/people you kill in those games? Thousands.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    ThacoBell said:

    @SorcererV1ct0r How do JRPGs fail to justify teenage swordsmen? Do you have any idea how many monsters/people you kill in those games? Thousands.

    What reason can make a androgynous teenager with humble background become stronger than a mercenary who trained since his childhood as his life depends of it and payed for the best trainer and best equipment in world? I can't think any reason.

    Or why someone should send an androgynous teenager without combat experience or training to fight colossal monsters?

    One think that i like about Dark Souls is that when you fight a gigantic demon swinging an tower sized iron club onto your face, it will kill you or at least hurt badly if you are very strong with very strong rare armor. I don't like sponge enemies/players.

    is not as if jrpg's aren't rpg's but some thinks that i don't like about then in nutshell(unless you classify all rpg's made in japan, even the "western like") :
    - Combat is always or action combat with sponge enemies or turn with a line of party members and the same tactic can will 99% of fights
    - No character customization. In IWD i can be everything that i want and if i wanna make a full druid part, i can do that. Sure, some wrpg's like witcher have no character customization, but they are exception. On NWN1, my Sorc hotu playtrough and my cleric playtrough was vastly different and both are casters.
    - More mature story, sure most modern wrpg's have bad story telling but i never saw an jrpg with a good story like vtmb or arcanum.
    - No replayability. How many hours i have on nwn1? 400 on gog + almost 30 on Enhanced Edition on steam + countless before i had a digital copy. How many times i grinded? Zero. I have tons of modules to play. Never managed to beat EotB but can enjoy countless of time with played made modules and replay the OC/Hotu expansion.
    - No choices on the story.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,288
    @SorcererV1ct0r No JRPG protagonist goes up against gods and giant beasts without training. You literally kill thousands of monsters to get there. Thats a lot of practical experience, how is that not training?

    Literally every "reason" you listed for JRPGs to be of lesser quality are entirely subjective.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    edited July 2018
    ThacoBell said:

    @SorcererV1ct0r No JRPG protagonist goes up against gods and giant beasts without training. You literally kill thousands of monsters to get there. Thats a lot of practical experience, how is that not training?

    Literally every "reason" you listed for JRPGs to be of lesser quality are entirely subjective.

    Some are up to personal taste but that a non linear game who allow custom modules and a lot of choices in character creation without considering mods have more longevity is not subjective or up to personal taste. About training, you are partially right. Sure, the "level" increases, but the "maturity" is almost the same, the personality too. Also, most progression is just "bigger numbers" instead of new move sets, new spells, etc

  • SquireSquire Member Posts: 512


    Yes, but in medieval period, swords aren't the most used weapons in battlefield. Polearms was and you barely see any MC of a jRPG using an spears/polearms. Spears require less training and have better range, against armor, swords are very ineffective compared to for example a Danish waraxe. For NOBLE teenagers, is expected for then to be squire, not knights.

    Oh, absolutely. However, in a street fight/skirmish, where you're not in a block and surrounded by other blocks, and also facing another block that's also surrounded by other blocks, polearms tend to be less useful (as a re-enactor I know this only too well :lol: ).

    My group has a saying: "men-at-arms win fights, but spearmen win battles". One-on-one, shield and a single-handed weapon has a huge advantage over the long spear, but in a battle, a spear/pike phalanx will destroy any shield wall.
    But honestly, there are a lot of misconceptions on mass media, this is just one more. Other example that i never understood, bows being an DEX weapon in most games; I an 6' 1"(1,84m) tall, have broad shoulders, train everyday and .... Do accurate successive shots with an 180 lbf warbow is very hard.
    Yeah... Hollywood has a lot to answer for!! :angry:

    FinneousPJ
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    In a close-quarters brawl a dagger is more useful than a sword, just ask Kit Marlowe.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,738
    Fardragon said:

    In a close-quarters brawl a dagger is more useful than a sword, just ask Kit Marlowe.

    Poisoning your enemies food before the battle even begins is more efffective than all of it combines.

    batoorsemiticgod
  • SquireSquire Member Posts: 512
    Fardragon said:

    In a close-quarters brawl a dagger is more useful than a sword, just ask Kit Marlowe.

    No it isn't! A dagger only does 1d4 piercing damage, and suffers no penalties or advantages for range, concealment, confined areas, etc, just like you can easily bring a 16 foot long pike into a dungeon with 5 foot wide corridors and have no problems getting around corners. And don't even try and tell me you can't carry 3 plate harnesses in your backpack while wearing your +5 Mail of Fire Protection, so you can take them back to the village populated by 5 people and sell them for 75% of their original retail value... :lol:

    Yeah... RPGs make very little sense when you really try to analyse the logic. :lol:

    batoor
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    edited July 2018

    Fardragon said:

    In a close-quarters brawl a dagger is more useful than a sword, just ask Kit Marlowe.

    Poisoning your enemies food before the battle even begins is more efffective than all of it combines.
    Now that's just a bit too dark mate^^

    The physical requirement for drawing an english longbow must have been insane.

  • SquireSquire Member Posts: 512
    batoor said:



    The physical requirement for drawing an english longbow must have been insane.

    It was. Boys would train from when they were about 6, with a lighter bow, going up in poundage until they were able to pull a warbow. They found some skeletons on the wreck of the Mary Rose (which can be seen at the museum in Portsmouth) and found their shoulders were actually deformed from all that time spent pulling high-poundage bows.

    If any ranged weapon should be ideal for the high-dex low-strength character, it should probably be a crossbow (newer ones have a lever/crank/windlass mechanism to make loading easier) or a sling.

    SorcererV1ct0rbatoor
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 10,288

    ThacoBell said:

    @SorcererV1ct0r No JRPG protagonist goes up against gods and giant beasts without training. You literally kill thousands of monsters to get there. Thats a lot of practical experience, how is that not training?

    Literally every "reason" you listed for JRPGs to be of lesser quality are entirely subjective.

    Some are up to personal taste but that a non linear game who allow custom modules and a lot of choices in character creation without considering mods have more longevity is not subjective or up to personal taste. About training, you are partially right. Sure, the "level" increases, but the "maturity" is almost the same, the personality too. Also, most progression is just "bigger numbers" instead of new move sets, new spells, etc
    I have played Final Fantasy 7 hundreds of hours more than NeverWinter Nights. Therefore Final Fantasy 7 objectively has more replayability than NWN. See? I can do it too?

    I challenge you to find a JRPG where the player only gains stats and no new abilities. Go ahead. Most JRPGs have legitimate character growth for their characters as well. It sounds to me like the only JRPG you have played is "Strawman Argument: The Legendary Journies"

    megamike15
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,738
    batoor said:

    Fardragon said:

    In a close-quarters brawl a dagger is more useful than a sword, just ask Kit Marlowe.

    Poisoning your enemies food before the battle even begins is more efffective than all of it combines.
    Now that's just a bit too dark mate^^

    I want what gets the job done, not what valiant or honorable, or what ever virgin lady in waiting imagine a knight to be that makes them go sploosh. If I can't be the spell slinger than I'm going to be the assassin you don't know exist because I do my job right.

    batoor
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 1,768
    edited July 2018
    Fardragon said:

    In a close-quarters brawl a dagger is more useful than a sword, just ask Kit Marlowe.

    Depends how "close quarters" you are talking. Also, if there are a dragon in a dungeon, there are room to move polearms...

    Fardragon said:

    In a close-quarters brawl a dagger is more useful than a sword, just ask Kit Marlowe.

    Poisoning your enemies food before the battle even begins is more efffective than all of it combines.
    When you can sneak undetected and poison their food. If you can't sneak...
    Squire said:

    (...)No it isn't! A dagger only does 1d4 piercing damage, and suffers no penalties or advantages for range, concealment, confined areas, etc, just like you can easily bring a 16 foot long pike into a dungeon with 5 foot wide corridors and have no problems getting around corners. And don't even try and tell me you can't carry 3 plate harnesses in your backpack while wearing your +5 Mail of Fire Protection, so you can take them back to the village populated by 5 people and sell them for 75% of their original retail value... :lol:

    Yeah... RPGs make very little sense when you really try to analyse the logic. :lol:

    The small population on cities are much more by HW/Memory limitations than anything else. About the narrow corridor, on dark souls, your weapon can "stuck" on walls and if a dungeon can have a golem protecting an treasure room and a dragon hiding in his middle, the dungeon have room to maneuver an halberd.

    About backpack, if you can find a +5 mail of fire protection, you can find an magic backpack...
    ThacoBell said:

    ThacoBell said:

    @SorcererV1ct0r No JRPG protagonist goes up against gods and giant beasts without training. You literally kill thousands of monsters to get there. Thats a lot of practical experience, how is that not training?

    Literally every "reason" you listed for JRPGs to be of lesser quality are entirely subjective.

    Some are up to personal taste but that a non linear game who allow custom modules and a lot of choices in character creation without considering mods have more longevity is not subjective or up to personal taste. About training, you are partially right. Sure, the "level" increases, but the "maturity" is almost the same, the personality too. Also, most progression is just "bigger numbers" instead of new move sets, new spells, etc
    I have played Final Fantasy 7 hundreds of hours more than NeverWinter Nights. Therefore Final Fantasy 7 objectively has more replayability than NWN. See? I can do it too?

    I challenge you to find a JRPG where the player only gains stats and no new abilities. Go ahead. Most JRPGs have legitimate character growth for their characters as well. It sounds to me like the only JRPG you have played is "Strawman Argument: The Legendary Journies"
    You replayed ff7, but how many ff7 reviewers on steam have over 100+ hours on steam? The fact that a game who allows custom made levels, modding, many different character creations have a bigger longevity and more replay value is not up to personal taste. Most jRPG fans on reddit said that they rarely replay an jRPG - https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/5diwj4/do_you_replay_jrpgs/

    Here is a SORC vs two dragons on NWN1



    And here is a CLERIC vs two dragons on NWN1



    Both casters, one divine, one arcane and the same fight is completely different. Now imagine if everyone needs to be an human fighter. The game will lose almost all replay value. And will probably lost his MP factor too. Can you imagine you joining in a server and everyone with the same spiky hair teenager with the same oversized sword? The multiplayer will gonna die too. For melee see how a monk, an assassin and a barbarian are different.

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