@Squire Once you leave the first city it opens up quite a bit. Final Fantasy games tend to start you in a hallway and open up gradually as you go through the game. Despite how janky (and sometimes downright bizarre) FF7 can be, its story has some GREAT twists to it. One in particular that I'm glad has remained mostly unspoiled to this day, that I don't think I've seen anyother RPG do since.
Hironobu Sakaguchi is a massive Ultima, Wizardry and D&D fan and Final Fantasy was a (very successful) attempt at selling western RPG design and theme to the Japanese audience.
Anime has not been targeting Japanese teenagers as a core demographic since 1989 when Akira hit US shores. Akira made $5.6 million domestic and $49 million global. This created a massive shift in focus from Japanese to Western audiences when producing mainstream anime as well as the Anime boom of the 90's.
I don't believe that all RPG follow the hero's journey. On call of cthulhu you are not the hero. You are not the savior of the world, you are just an explorer. You will probably end the game insane, mutilated or dead. And a lot of RPG's allow you to play with a villan. If i play Arcanum with an racist elf who hates every non elf and do evil things to non elves every time that is possible, i an not being any hero. Also, most Sandbox RPG's IMHO don't follow the hero's journey. On M&B you are just an guy fighting for money, renown, territory and power. Even if you are a hero, there are other ways yo make your character the hero without following the heroes journey "trope"
PS : Sorry for not posting actively in a thread that i've created and resurrected. I was one week in Bariloche, so i din't played much games or logged on forums.
It does not have to be a fantasy epic where everyone lives happily ever after to still follow the heroes journey.
To use your example. Lovecraft follows the heroes journey as a tragedy, but it is still the heroes journey.
Shadow Over Innsmouth, At the Mountains of Madness, The Shunned House, The Music of Erich Zann and The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath are prime examples of Lovecraft following the heroes journey note for note only the outcome is an unhappy one.
It does not have to be a fantasy epic where everyone lives happily ever after to still follow the heroes journey.
To use your example. Lovecraft follows the heroes journey as a tragedy, but it is still the heroes journey.
Shadow Over Innsmouth, At the Mountains of Madness, The Shunned House, The Music of Erich Zann and The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath are prime examples of Lovecraft following the heroes journey note for note only the outcome is an unhappy one.
Well, IMHO Hero's Journey need to fulfill a certain order and the character needs to end up as an hero.
To follow the hero's journey, is needed to
- The call to adventure - Refusal of the call - Some sort of supernatural aid - The challenges - A transformation - Atonement
If : - You play as a villain or as a neutral character - Don't refuse the "call" - Don't have a supernatural aid
You aren't technically following the hero's journey. Of course, for some people, go on a adventure is everything needed to be in a hero's journey trope
I never liked the "hero's journey" concept. It fits a lot of stories, but that's not because it pins down important or universal parts of a certain story type--it's because it's so vague.
Call to adventure -> Just another word for whatever starts the story. No one would go on a dangerous quest unless he or she were given a reason. Refusal of the call -> Any normal person would say "no" when asked to go on a dangerous quest for which they were not thoroughly qualified. Some sort of supernatural aid -> Stories are cooler with magic, and it would be lame if only the bad guys got the cool magic stuff. The challenges -> Events happen to the character. A transformation -> Events have effects on the character. Atonement -> Resolution of some problem.
The only difference between the hero's journey and everyday life for every human on the planet is that we don't have magic.
I never liked the "hero's journey" concept. It fits a lot of stories, but that's not because it pins down important or universal parts of a certain story type--it's because it's so vague.
Call to adventure -> Just another word for whatever starts the story. No one would go on a dangerous quest unless he or she were given a reason. Refusal of the call -> Any normal person would say "no" when asked to go on a dangerous quest for which they were not thoroughly qualified. Some sort of supernatural aid -> Stories are cooler with magic, and it would be lame if only the bad guys got the cool magic stuff. The challenges -> Events happen to the character. A transformation -> Events have effects on the character. Atonement -> Resolution of some problem.
The only difference between the hero's journey and everyday life for every human on the planet is that we don't have magic.
Yes, you are right. Is another point of my critique who was wrong.
But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, an melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.
You do not have to be a heroic character to follow the "Hero's Journey" metaplot.
But the converse is also true. A character can be heroic and deviate significantly from the Hero's Journey storyline. A common example would be where the protagonist is a fully formed hero at the start of the story, and comes out at the end unchanged.
I never liked the "hero's journey" concept. It fits a lot of stories, but that's not because it pins down important or universal parts of a certain story type--it's because it's so vague.
Call to adventure -> Just another word for whatever starts the story. No one would go on a dangerous quest unless he or she were given a reason. Refusal of the call -> Any normal person would say "no" when asked to go on a dangerous quest for which they were not thoroughly qualified. Some sort of supernatural aid -> Stories are cooler with magic, and it would be lame if only the bad guys got the cool magic stuff. The challenges -> Events happen to the character. A transformation -> Events have effects on the character. Atonement -> Resolution of some problem.
The only difference between the hero's journey and everyday life for every human on the planet is that we don't have magic.
Yes, you are right. Is another point of my critique who was wrong.
But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, an melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.
there are jrpgs with mature themes like smt. but most of them are on the same level as say a shonen anime as the target audience is the same with afew exceptions.
again comparing the two should just stop. it's like saying every single rpg has bad writing when compared to pst which i consider not fair.
Personally, I think the heroes journey is great, if not essential... in the author/editing world, there is a strong focus on avoiding tropes and clichés when writing fantasy and "the heroes journey" obviously get's drawn into that.... however, time and time again, I see good authors trying so hard to avoid a trope, that they lose the whole purpose of why they are writing in the first place... the passion, excitement etc.
Editors are always complaining about "yet another heroes journey"... and a lot of good books come out, but none that takes the world by storm... then "another heroes journey" pops up... Harry Potter, Game of Thrones... and low and behold... it takes the world by storm. There's a reason the "heroes journey" has stayed with us so long, why ancient stories that fit this net have stayed with us. People have written every possible story by now, but the ones we remember follow a pattern.
More on topic... I think most "rpgs" aren't rpgs, not just jrpgs. I never understood why bioware...dragon age / mass effect got so much flak... because those were rpgs (sure some were more or less, but still I think all were rpgs). There are truly so few real rpgs, that my excitement levels were off the scale when DAO was announced, when DA2 was in the making and when the BGEE countdown was made. Of course I think the witcher was fantastic, but people talk about Witcher vs Dragon Age, as though you can't play both. With so few true rpgs, any rpg fan needs to play all of them. I love Skyrim/Fallout too, but those didn't feel like rpgs.
But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, an melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.
Most rpgs aren't very mature, period. Most games aren't either.
I think Game of Thrones is not supposed to be a Hero's Journey. But we have yet to see where it ends.
I dunno... so far it looks pretty "hero's journey" to me. The only difference is Danaerys hasn't "refused the call", but otherwise, everything else that's happened so far falls into that category, and I'm pretty sure I know how it's going to end. Certain characters even have the whole "special bloodline" thing going on (I won't say who because that's still a spoiler - as if anybody doesn't know by now ) - at least in the TV show. I'm not sure if it's different in the book... not that we'll find out any time soon, but... yeah, there's definitely a few hero's journeys in there.
Speaking of special bloodlines... howcome that's such a thing in all RPGs now? Why do you always have to either be a member of, or be recruited into, the Special Birthright Clan? Wasn't the whole point of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings that heroes can come from the most humble backgrounds?
I never liked the "hero's journey" concept. It fits a lot of stories, but that's not because it pins down important or universal parts of a certain story type--it's because it's so vague.
Call to adventure -> Just another word for whatever starts the story. No one would go on a dangerous quest unless he or she were given a reason. Refusal of the call -> Any normal person would say "no" when asked to go on a dangerous quest for which they were not thoroughly qualified. Some sort of supernatural aid -> Stories are cooler with magic, and it would be lame if only the bad guys got the cool magic stuff. The challenges -> Events happen to the character. A transformation -> Events have effects on the character. Atonement -> Resolution of some problem.
The only difference between the hero's journey and everyday life for every human on the planet is that we don't have magic.
Yes, you are right. Is another point of my critique who was wrong.
But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, an melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.
there are jrpgs with mature themes like smt. but most of them are on the same level as say a shonen anime as the target audience is the same with afew exceptions.
again comparing the two should just stop. it's like saying every single rpg has bad writing when compared to pst which i consider not fair.
Yes, but with anime, i can watch animes like Hellsing and even some shonens have interesting main characters like Kaze no Stigma. The same applies to jRPG's? I an not saying that a entire subgenre is bad only because i don't like. If you consider Dark Souls as an jRPG, yes, DS is an example of a more mature jRPG.
You are not the hero fleeing an attacked village who by plot power become the savior of the world. You are just one more many undeads. Both endings are "grey scales", i will not spoil the endings but if you decide to attack Gwynevere, the entire anor londo becomes a completely different region.
And most NPC quests have interesting "turnouts", for example during the Logan's quest(spoils below)
On Duke's Archives, at first, he can only sell spells like Crystal Soul Spear, then after a long time studding, he become insane and hollow. Not even one of the strongest sorcerer in world can escape the tragic destiny and not even Gods can stop the end of "age of fire"
And after he goes insane, you kill him and get the highest INT required spell in the game. White Dragon Breath
Sorcery developed by Logan during his infatuation with Seath the Scaleless. Emit crystal breath of Seath the Scaleless.
It ends in arbitrarily killing off characters and quickly replacing then with characters that also mean nothing.
George R R Martin is the literary equivalent of vaguebooking.
I think that he wanna portraits a story without "plot armor", a noble die by "vendettas" in GoT world is very likely. I don't likely when half of a city population dies and no important character in the same city dies too. Feels like the author is protecting the characters
I love Skyrim/Fallout too, but those didn't feel like rpgs.
That depends. Fallout 4 is a shooter. Fallout 2/1 is very RPG. Fallout 3/new vegas is a hybrid of shooter/RPG and fallout 4 is just a shooter with less RPG elements than many adventure games. Same for elder scrolls. Daggerfall/Morrowind are RPG, Oblivion is a aRPG and Skyrim is too much action, to little RPG.
It may be GRRM's intention to subvert the "special bloodline" trope. The TV show people might choose to go in a different direction though, given how much anger there was when Star Wars subverted it.
It was always a thing in Lord of the Rings though. "I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it." i.e. Frodo is the Chosen One. And then there is Aragorn: "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son".
As for [single player] CRPGs, the protagonist is quite literally the chosen one, since they are the only character controlled by a human. All the rest are NPCs.
As an addendum to that, it might be worth noting that Game of Thrones was heavily based on the Wars of the Roses. The person who "won" was Henry Tudor (Henry VII) - the one person with NO legitimate claim, NO special bloodline - his claim was entirely based on a lie.
Wasn't the whole point of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings that heroes can come from the most humble backgrounds?
Most people capable of making drastic changes in at least a city din't come from "humble backgrounds", LoTR have an explanation. The hobbit is the probably the most resistant to be corrupted by the ring.
Frodo might have been upper class, but it didn't give him any special powers or anything. He was still a hobbit, born of other hobbits, and with entirely hobbit DNA. We don't suddenly find out his father was actually Gil Galad, or that he's actually half-balrog, or any crap like that, which is pretty normal for RPGs both Japanese and Western alike... it's like if you don't have some special angelic/demonic blood, or aren't related to some ancient hero or super-special bloodline, you can't be an adventurer.
At least in tabletop RPGs nobody gets to be super-special, you're just a bunch of ordinary guys brought together by fate, circumstances, or meeting in a tavern.
At least in tabletop RPGs nobody gets to be super-special, you're just a bunch of ordinary guys brought together by fate, circumstances, or meeting in a tavern.
I can tell you from experience that this isn't always the case.
It may be GRRM's intention to subvert the "special bloodline" trope. The TV show people might choose to go in a different direction though, given how much anger there was when Star Wars subverted it.
I strongly doubt that to be the case, what with how important blood and bloodlines has proved to be both practically, symbolically, and magically in the books and setting so far.
At least in tabletop RPGs nobody gets to be super-special, you're just a bunch of ordinary guys brought together by fate, circumstances, or meeting in a tavern.
I can tell you from experience that this isn't always the case.
Literally just start with tieflings, aasimar, genasi, and the like, and then go from there. I'll give a pass for being non-human or non-halfling people like elves, dwarves, and even half-orcs and half-elves, as these races are presented as fairly germane in the generic dnd settings. Sorcerers are not excluded however.
(...)it's like if you don't have some special angelic/demonic blood, or aren't related to some ancient hero or super-special bloodline, you can't be an adventurer.
At least in tabletop RPGs nobody gets to be super-special, you're just a bunch of ordinary guys brought together by fate, circumstances, or meeting in a tavern.
But you can play as a Aasimar on tabletop games and sorcerers technically have a "special" bloodline on dnd. The difference is that you are not that special for having that bloodline, in fact there are a lot of non humans in dnd universe and a lot of "special" people. You aren't a chosen one by being a sorcerer. You are just one more sorcerer.
But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, an melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.
Most rpgs aren't very mature, period. Most games aren't either.
I have yet to understand what people mean by games being mature. Is GTA mature because you can shoot people in the face? Is The Witcher mature because you can get the main character laid with every female you encounter? Is VtMB mature because you can find a guy getting a blowjob behind a church? How is being an elf mage more "mature" than being a teenager with spiky hair and a big sword? Really seems to me like people use mature as an adjective for the sole purpose of making themselves feel superior.
Comments
PS : Sorry for not posting actively in a thread that i've created and resurrected. I was one week in Bariloche, so i din't played much games or logged on forums.
To use your example. Lovecraft follows the heroes journey as a tragedy, but it is still the heroes journey.
Shadow Over Innsmouth, At the Mountains of Madness, The Shunned House, The Music of Erich Zann and The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath are prime examples of Lovecraft following the heroes journey note for note only the outcome is an unhappy one.
To follow the hero's journey, is needed to
- The call to adventure
- Refusal of the call
- Some sort of supernatural aid
- The challenges
- A transformation
- Atonement
If :
- You play as a villain or as a neutral character
- Don't refuse the "call"
- Don't have a supernatural aid
You aren't technically following the hero's journey. Of course, for some people, go on a adventure is everything needed to be in a hero's journey trope
Call to adventure -> Just another word for whatever starts the story. No one would go on a dangerous quest unless he or she were given a reason.
Refusal of the call -> Any normal person would say "no" when asked to go on a dangerous quest for which they were not thoroughly qualified.
Some sort of supernatural aid -> Stories are cooler with magic, and it would be lame if only the bad guys got the cool magic stuff.
The challenges -> Events happen to the character.
A transformation -> Events have effects on the character.
Atonement -> Resolution of some problem.
The only difference between the hero's journey and everyday life for every human on the planet is that we don't have magic.
But i still think that there aren't much maturity on jRPG. I never saw a jRPG with the same maturity of VtMB. And that i can be whatever i want on wRPG's. A elf magician, an businessman gnome, an melee dumb orc, a gunsmith dwarf or try go outside your racial tendencies and be a melee gnome is possible but more hard. Also, NPC's react to you.
But the converse is also true. A character can be heroic and deviate significantly from the Hero's Journey storyline. A common example would be where the protagonist is a fully formed hero at the start of the story, and comes out at the end unchanged.
again comparing the two should just stop. it's like saying every single rpg has bad writing when compared to pst which i consider not fair.
Editors are always complaining about "yet another heroes journey"... and a lot of good books come out, but none that takes the world by storm... then "another heroes journey" pops up... Harry Potter, Game of Thrones... and low and behold... it takes the world by storm. There's a reason the "heroes journey" has stayed with us so long, why ancient stories that fit this net have stayed with us. People have written every possible story by now, but the ones we remember follow a pattern.
More on topic... I think most "rpgs" aren't rpgs, not just jrpgs. I never understood why bioware...dragon age / mass effect got so much flak... because those were rpgs (sure some were more or less, but still I think all were rpgs). There are truly so few real rpgs, that my excitement levels were off the scale when DAO was announced, when DA2 was in the making and when the BGEE countdown was made. Of course I think the witcher was fantastic, but people talk about Witcher vs Dragon Age, as though you can't play both. With so few true rpgs, any rpg fan needs to play all of them. I love Skyrim/Fallout too, but those didn't feel like rpgs.
George R R Martin is the literary equivalent of vaguebooking.
Same problem Robert Jordan had with The Wheel of time series.
I mean that stuff happens all the time when a series is dragged on for too long and the new lackluster content can't match up to the old.
Coincidentally they were also very good friends.
Speaking of special bloodlines... howcome that's such a thing in all RPGs now? Why do you always have to either be a member of, or be recruited into, the Special Birthright Clan? Wasn't the whole point of The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings that heroes can come from the most humble backgrounds?
You are not the hero fleeing an attacked village who by plot power become the savior of the world. You are just one more many undeads. Both endings are "grey scales", i will not spoil the endings but if you decide to attack Gwynevere, the entire anor londo becomes a completely different region.
And most NPC quests have interesting "turnouts", for example during the Logan's quest(spoils below)
And after he goes insane, you kill him and get the highest INT required spell in the game. White Dragon Breath
infatuation with Seath the Scaleless.
Emit crystal breath of Seath the Scaleless.
source http://darksouls.wikidot.com/white-dragon-breath
I think that he wanna portraits a story without "plot armor", a noble die by "vendettas" in GoT world is very likely. I don't likely when half of a city population dies and no important character in the same city dies too. Feels like the author is protecting the characters That depends. Fallout 4 is a shooter. Fallout 2/1 is very RPG. Fallout 3/new vegas is a hybrid of shooter/RPG and fallout 4 is just a shooter with less RPG elements than many adventure games. Same for elder scrolls. Daggerfall/Morrowind are RPG, Oblivion is a aRPG and Skyrim is too much action, to little RPG.
It was always a thing in Lord of the Rings though. "I can put it no plainer than by saying that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker. In which case you also were meant to have it." i.e. Frodo is the Chosen One. And then there is Aragorn: "I am Aragorn, son of Arathorn, and am called Elessar, the Elfstone, Dúnadan, the heir of Isildur Elendil's son".
As for [single player] CRPGs, the protagonist is quite literally the chosen one, since they are the only character controlled by a human. All the rest are NPCs.
Icewind Dale is the notable exception.
At least in tabletop RPGs nobody gets to be super-special, you're just a bunch of ordinary guys brought together by fate, circumstances, or meeting in a tavern.
(Not really)
I can tell you from experience that this isn't always the case.
Literally just start with tieflings, aasimar, genasi, and the like, and then go from there. I'll give a pass for being non-human or non-halfling people like elves, dwarves, and even half-orcs and half-elves, as these races are presented as fairly germane in the generic dnd settings. Sorcerers are not excluded however.
How is being an elf mage more "mature" than being a teenager with spiky hair and a big sword?
Really seems to me like people use mature as an adjective for the sole purpose of making themselves feel superior.