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  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited December 2018
    Proving the recent stock market dip didn't happen isn't the intent of the graph. And I highly, highly doubt the stock market has been influenced by a recent Trump tweet or anything of the sort.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    I saw an interesting study today.

    The more informed you are on political issues, as a Republican, the more likely you are to distrust national media.

    The more informed you are on political issues, as a Democrat, the more likely you are to trust the national media.

    The most informed independents, don't trust the national media much more than Republicans do.






    https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/wp/2018/08/23/study-informed-republicans-distrust-the-media-in-large-numbers/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.da6c811cf16b
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited December 2018
    Sorry for the triple-post, but I had no idea a Chinese Tech Executive was arrested. Does anyone know where and what for? The story doesn't say.

    This is the worst possible timing for such a thing regardless of the reasons as an agreement between the US and China was just recently reached. I'd really like to know who authorized this terrible decision, and if it was POTUS himself, he shot himself in the foot.

  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    How else would you hope to keep on top of current events if not for the media? Do those who distrust the media consider random facebook posts more trustworthy?
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    The media being the sole gatekeepers to important facts doesn't mean they are honest or objective in the presentation of those facts, or that they will choose to reveal them at all.

    But to answer the question, people of all stripes trust local news sources more than national news sources. They probably feel like there is less agenda pushing in local news outlets, and that may be true in many cases, but it's not always.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455

    The media being the sole gatekeepers to important facts doesn't mean they are honest or objective in the presentation of those facts, or that they will choose to reveal them at all.

    But to answer the question, people of all stripes trust local news sources more than national news sources. They probably feel like there is less agenda pushing in local news outlets, and that may be true in many cases, but it's not always.

    Local news sources are also media lol
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367
    edited December 2018

    On an unrelated note (and therefore a new post), I'm curious what @Balrog99 as a conservative Michigander thinks about the GOP in Michigan voting to restrict power from the incoming Democratic Governor during the lame duck session?

    It's a desperation move on their part. I'm not entirely sure that Governor Snyder will sign anything too radical, though. He doesn't seem to be a conservative zealot to me. Time will tell, I guess...

    Edit: Interestingly this isn't really big news here in Michigan. I only heard about it because of you here on this forum.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651

    The media being the sole gatekeepers to important facts doesn't mean they are honest or objective in the presentation of those facts, or that they will choose to reveal them at all.

    But to answer the question, people of all stripes trust local news sources more than national news sources. They probably feel like there is less agenda pushing in local news outlets, and that may be true in many cases, but it's not always.

    Local news sources are also media lol
    My post, and the study, said "national media." National media and local media aren't the same. Lol.

    Still not sure what you are getting at.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455

    The media being the sole gatekeepers to important facts doesn't mean they are honest or objective in the presentation of those facts, or that they will choose to reveal them at all.

    But to answer the question, people of all stripes trust local news sources more than national news sources. They probably feel like there is less agenda pushing in local news outlets, and that may be true in many cases, but it's not always.

    Local news sources are also media lol
    My post, and the study, said "national media." National media and local media aren't the same. Lol.

    Still not sure what you are getting at.
    What about international media then :D
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited December 2018

    I saw an interesting study today.

    The more informed you are on political issues, as a Republican, the more likely you are to distrust national media.

    The more informed you are on political issues, as a Democrat, the more likely you are to trust the national media.

    The most informed independents, don't trust the national media much more than Republicans do.

    I've also read a study (which I think showed up earlier in this thread, though I don't remember when) that found that being informed on political issues was correlated with partisanship--that is, people who paid attention to the news were more likely to know about current events and know the names of public officials, but they were also more swayed by partisan reporting. I'm guessing that's why the study you mentioned gave those results: Democrats get more informed and also more partisan by watching left-leaning news outlets, while Republicans get more informed and also more partisan by watching right-leaning news outlets.


    Wages and unemployment > stock market when measuring the health of the economy. Real people matter more than big businesses.

    Wages and unemployment are also more important than GDP in my opinion. The conditions of the ordinary American worker are the best gauge of how good our economy is. GDP just measures the amount of money in the system and the stock market measures the success of big business, neither of which necessarily makes things any better for the average American.

    About the concept of face: the Chinese do have a strong concept of face, just like the Japanese. All civilizations have some sense of "face" or personal reputation, but in Asian cultures, it's considered much more important and figures more prominently in the average mind and everyday courtesy than in countries like the U.S.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,317

    Sorry for the triple-post, but I had no idea a Chinese Tech Executive was arrested. Does anyone know where and what for? The story doesn't say.

    This is the worst possible timing for such a thing regardless of the reasons as an agreement between the US and China was just recently reached. I'd really like to know who authorized this terrible decision, and if it was POTUS himself, he shot himself in the foot.

    We don't know yet, though breach of Iranian sanctions has been raised as a possibility. I don't know whether Trump directly authorized it, but if not it will be a result of his policy for increasing confrontation on trade issues (resulting in considerable increases in the number of investigations carried out by US authorities). It's possible to defend that on the grounds that at last someone is coming to grips with abuses (such as the Chinese requirement that effectively requires foreign firms dealing with China to share trade secrets). However, the confrontation is being done purely by the US rather than through international agreement which I suspect reduces its effectiveness. In addition this analysis that the US is tackling the abuses of others ignores the fact that other countries complain about trade abuses by the US to almost the same extent as vice-versa.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    Proving the recent stock market dip didn't happen isn't the intent of the graph. And I highly, highly doubt the stock market has been influenced by a recent Trump tweet or anything of the sort.

    It has.

    When you put the two biggest economies against each other like Trump has done, people (and investors are mostly people) get nervous. Remember, stocks are investments in companies. If there a concern your investment will not be fufilled it’s best to pull out. Tariffs eat at companies bottom lines the more they are in affect.

    There is a link between G20 and everyone applauding after the dinner, to the White House saying we’re not releasing any information until after Bush’s Funeral to Trump tweets on being the Tariff Man.

    Add in China stating they didn’t agree to anything the administration is pushing (buying more Soyabeans), investors are even more skittish.0

    @WarChiefZeke both @Grond0 and I mentioned the arrest on the previous page and what we speculate it is about. She was arrested in Canada to be extradited to the United States. I believe it is spy related even though news outlets claim it is about selling to Iran. Yes it doesn’t help international relationships in the slightest but here is hoping there is a quick resolution to the arrest and no retribution.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    edited December 2018

    The media being the sole gatekeepers to important facts doesn't mean they are honest or objective in the presentation of those facts, or that they will choose to reveal them at all.

    But to answer the question, people of all stripes trust local news sources more than national news sources. They probably feel like there is less agenda pushing in local news outlets, and that may be true in many cases, but it's not always.

    Local news sources are also media lol
    My post, and the study, said "national media." National media and local media aren't the same. Lol.
    When the local news is owned by a national conglomerate like Sinclair, they certainly do push an agenda. And Sinclair's reach is certainly "national" in scope.

    https://www.vox.com/first-person/2018/4/5/17202336/sinclair-broadcasting-promo-deadspin

    https://theconcourse.deadspin.com/how-americas-largest-local-tv-owner-turned-its-news-anc-1824233490

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWLjYJ4BzvI
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957
    edited December 2018
    At this moment, the DJIA is at 24,528 and still tanking (actually went down 30 points between me starting this post, and me about to post this post). That is, by that chart, somewhere around Dec. 11th, 2017.

    An ENTIRE YEAR has been written off. Where's that magical 3.5% growth the Repubs were talking about, boasting that Obama was an idiot for saying that 1.5% was the new normal?

    I'm waiting.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659



    When the local news is owned by a national conglomerate like Sinclair, they certainly do push an agenda. And Sinclair's reach is certainly "national" in scope.

    This.

    Also - those graphs are rather misleading since Obama's include dealing with the Great Recession while Trump's do not. Context is key. A graph of the whole of both tenures would be more illuminating.

    Also, Trump tweets do influence the stock market. When he attacks a company (Say, GM) - their stock goes down. When he attacks and threatens trade wars over twitter with China, the stock market as a whole goes down.


    Lastly - while I'd argue that's Trump's policies have generally been either partisan of bad, I don't think they go down to the level of the failures of Bush 43. Crashing the economy + Iraq war are a tough hurdle to climb. That said, Trump's border separations have him in the race. If the economy falters...
  • QuickbladeQuickblade Member Posts: 957

    The media being the sole gatekeepers to important facts doesn't mean they are honest or objective in the presentation of those facts, or that they will choose to reveal them at all.

    But to answer the question, people of all stripes trust local news sources more than national news sources. They probably feel like there is less agenda pushing in local news outlets, and that may be true in many cases, but it's not always.

    Local news sources are also media lol
    My post, and the study, said "national media." National media and local media aren't the same. Lol.

    Still not sure what you are getting at.
    What about when national media buys up the local media and says "you will push what we have nationally, locally"?
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    @WarChiefZeke All I've seen on the arrest is claims of China breaking the American Trade Embargo with Iran. It seems pretty stupid on the face of it, because while America isn't trading, we don't have control over what another country can do or who they trade with. We (the government of the US) may not like it, but there is little we/they can do about it. I haven't seen anything that suggests it may be something else, but at this point, who knows?

    Apparently, FOX news just got a big letdown from a conservative attorney.
    "Conservative attorney delivers bad news to Fox viewers by dismantling Gingrich’s attacks on Mueller"
    https://www.rawstory.com/2018/12/conservative-attorney-delivers-bad-news-fox-viewers-dismantling-gingrichs-attacks-mueller/?fbclid=IwAR11uJ21NElCgc9grRo0GWk0N0gLySppG5DTPGWUDVQSX10qbUUG10X0iXk

    And Trump's businesses were "Compromised", according to Adam Schiff.
    https://6abc.com/top-house-intel-committee-dem-says-trump-and-his-business-were-compromised/4813286/?fbclid=IwAR1Dm2mhcYkpmaG653rpZKxf88QlkvuoLU-DbZklgFA5UoKSaz91rGdqzuM
    Because Trump hoped to make Money in and from Russia, whether he won or lost the election, and the Russians knew that, that compromised Trump because they could reveal it at any time to blackmail him. This is called "Kompromat" in Russia.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2018
    DIJA on 6 December 2017: 24,140,91. DIJA on 6 December 2018: 24535.66 (at the time of this post; it may have changed a little since then). Net result: if you invested money into the stock index (you can buy an ETF which tracks the average instead of the the individual stocks) then you have made 1.6352% on your investment--doesn't even beat inflation but it's better than losing money.

    DIJA on 5 December 2016: 19,756.85. If you invested money 2 years ago you have made 24.188%, which definitely beats inflation. If you look at 5-year returns you wind up at over 50%. You may view any of a number of websites which will easily show you historical data to check these numbers.

    edit: @Quickblade The two-year growth comes to 11.44% per year (1.114396697^2 = 1.24188 approximately), which beats 3.5%.

    The point? Unless you are a broker, you work for one of the market-watching news shows, you are the CFO of a company whose stock gets traded publicly, or your investment portfolio is heavily invested in ETFs, the daily indices don't mean very much. They are a leading indicator of economic activity, true, but sometimes social or political events can have an anomalous effect on the indices. Once news of Ms. Meng (Chinese names list surname first, if I recall) quiets down the markets will recover.

    Investing in ETFs can be weird. It would take up a little too much space here but I can show how it is possible to invest in an index which can lose 40% of its listed price and yet you can still make money. The key is if you wait out a downturn or continue investing through the downturn.
  • Balrog99Balrog99 Member Posts: 7,367

    DIJA on 6 December 2017: 24,140,91. DIJA on 6 December 2018: 24535.66 (at the time of this post; it may have changed a little since then). Net result: if you invested money into the stock index (you can buy an ETF which tracks the average instead of the the individual stocks) then you have made 1.6352% on your investment--doesn't even beat inflation but it's better than losing money.

    DIJA on 5 December 2016: 19,756.85. If you invested money 2 years ago you have made 24.188%, which definitely beats inflation. If you look at 5-year returns you wind up at over 50%. You may view any of a number of websites which will easily show you historical data to check these numbers.

    edit: @Quickblade The two-year growth comes to 11.44% per year (1.114396697^2 = 1.24188 approximately), which beats 3.5%.

    The point? Unless you are a broker, you work for one of the market-watching news shows, you are the CFO of a company whose stock gets traded publicly, or your investment portfolio is heavily invested in ETFs, the daily indices don't mean very much. They are a leading indicator of economic activity, true, but sometimes social or political events can have an anomalous effect on the indices. Once news of Ms. Meng (Chinese names list surname first, if I recall) quiets down the markets will recover.

    Investing in ETFs can be weird. It would take up a little too much space here but I can show how it is possible to invest in an index which can lose 40% of its listed price and yet you can still make money. The key is if you wait out a downturn or continue investing through the downturn.

    I tell people all the time, the only way you lose money in a stock-market crash is if you cash out before the recovery. I rode out the 2009 crash by leaving my money where it was, and upped my 401k contribution percentage a couple points. I came out smelling like a rose in less than two years (made most of my money back within ONE year). That was by doing little more than absolute nothing! Emotion is NOT the friend of your finances...
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited December 2018
    On the one hand, I'd say "you've gotta be kidding me". On the other, it's exactly what I would expect. Trump is literally CURRENTLY EMPLOYING undocumented workers!!!!!:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/us/trump-bedminster-golf-undocumented-workers.html

    Good enough to make his bed and do his laundry, as long as it benefits him personally. I don't know how we can possibly take this man seriously on any immigration issue ever again. If you are going to go as far as he goes on the issue, you better have a SPOTLESS record on the subject. This is proof that he doesn't. Will his supporters care?? Absolutely not. Even on his #1 issue, he is a absolute, total fraud.

    I've often pondered what the reaction would be from the religious right if it is ever revealed Trump paid for or encouraged an abortion (which I personally think is a near certainty but of course we have no proof). This is the exact same type of revelation for the anti-immigration crowd. Employers are problem #1 if this is to be viewed as a serious issue. Trump owns this New Jersey golf resort. He is currently employing undocumented workers. His entire Presidency is based on rooting them out of the country. It just never stops with this guy.
  • AmmarAmmar Member Posts: 1,297
    Balrog99 said:

    DIJA on 6 December 2017: 24,140,91. DIJA on 6 December 2018: 24535.66 (at the time of this post; it may have changed a little since then). Net result: if you invested money into the stock index (you can buy an ETF which tracks the average instead of the the individual stocks) then you have made 1.6352% on your investment--doesn't even beat inflation but it's better than losing money.

    DIJA on 5 December 2016: 19,756.85. If you invested money 2 years ago you have made 24.188%, which definitely beats inflation. If you look at 5-year returns you wind up at over 50%. You may view any of a number of websites which will easily show you historical data to check these numbers.

    edit: @Quickblade The two-year growth comes to 11.44% per year (1.114396697^2 = 1.24188 approximately), which beats 3.5%.

    The point? Unless you are a broker, you work for one of the market-watching news shows, you are the CFO of a company whose stock gets traded publicly, or your investment portfolio is heavily invested in ETFs, the daily indices don't mean very much. They are a leading indicator of economic activity, true, but sometimes social or political events can have an anomalous effect on the indices. Once news of Ms. Meng (Chinese names list surname first, if I recall) quiets down the markets will recover.

    Investing in ETFs can be weird. It would take up a little too much space here but I can show how it is possible to invest in an index which can lose 40% of its listed price and yet you can still make money. The key is if you wait out a downturn or continue investing through the downturn.

    I tell people all the time, the only way you lose money in a stock-market crash is if you cash out before the recovery. I rode out the 2009 crash by leaving my money where it was, and upped my 401k contribution percentage a couple points. I came out smelling like a rose in less than two years (made most of my money back within ONE year). That was by doing little more than absolute nothing! Emotion is NOT the friend of your finances...
    That is definitely true. The problem is that the crashes often coincide with increased unemployment, so that many people are not able to ride it out even if they have the required emotional fortitude.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    so...

    Confederate 'mega flag' raised along I-40 to protest Silent Sam removal

    https://www.wral.com/confederate-mega-flag-raised-along-i-40-to-protest-silent-sam-removal/18044308/
    HILDEBRAN, N.C. — As criticism mounts over the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill's multimillion-dollar proposal to house the controversial "Silent Sam" statue, local Sons of Confederate Veterans camps are responding by raising another Confederate "mega flag."
    The latest flag is located on private property adjacent to Interstate 40 near Hildebran.

    See, this is the thing. I don't like it, but it's on Private Property. Unless someone declares it a "public nuisance", I don't see how this gets taken down.

    Defense begins to present its case at James Fields' murder trial in Charlottesville

    https://www.richmond.com/news/local/crime/defense-begins-to-present-its-case-at-james-fields-murder/article_300134ff-6401-5f05-bb1e-ce62e3f0a5af.amp.html?fbclid=IwAR3WMinXCausLJ_lT9aIiVgu3F9Ua-1ykchduW7XsjXvSfw-nq7yxD91RlI
    This guy is a real piece of scum. He has no remorse for killing a woman or injuring 32 other people by driving into them with his car. Personally, I hope he gets locked up and never sees the daylight, save through bars, ever again.
    He hyperventilated for nearly two minutes during an interrogation after investigators told him he had killed one person and hurt numerous others. But in a jailhouse phone call to his mother earlier this year, Fields called the people he injured “terrorists” and “communists.”
    Jurors learned Tuesday that Fields sent his mother a picture of Adolf Hitler and a text message prior to the rally, after she pleaded with him to be careful.
    “We’re not the one [sic] who need to be careful,” he wrote.
    Fields also faces federal hate crime charges, for which he will be tried after the state trial has concluded. In the federal case, he could receive the death penalty if convicted.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    On the one hand, I'd say "you've gotta be kidding me". On the other, it's exactly what I would expect. Trump is literally CURRENTLY EMPLOYING undocumented workers!!!!!:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/06/us/trump-bedminster-golf-undocumented-workers.html

    Good enough to make his bed and do his laundry, as long as it benefits him personally. I don't know how we can possibly take this man seriously on any immigration issue ever again. If you are going to go as far as he goes on the issue, you better have a SPOTLESS record on the subject. This is proof that he doesn't. Will his supporters care?? Absolutely not. Even on his #1 issue, he is a absolute, total fraud.

    I've often pondered what the reaction would be from the religious right if it is ever revealed Trump paid for or encouraged an abortion (which I personally think is a near certainty but of course we have no proof). This is the exact same type of revelation for the anti-immigration crowd. Employers are problem #1 if this is to be viewed as a serious issue. Trump owns this New Jersey golf resort. He is currently employing undocumented workers. His entire Presidency is based on rooting them out of the country. It just never stops with this guy.

    Trump has three options here:

    Deport her and deny knowing she was illegal. This is the cold hearted but will mostly smooth over his base.

    Grant her citizenship. This will troll everyone as it’s hypocritical for him to do that as it only benefits his company (and her). He’ll just shrug it off.0

    Ignore the story. Keep her employed and let the story blow over unnoticed.

    Trump being Trump will deport her and then hire another illegal to take his place.
    ~

    And allegedly the first anchor baby was born in US from the Caravan. The mother entered the country illegally, was brought to a hospital and had a child.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2018
    Balrog99 said:

    I tell people all the time, the only way you lose money in a stock-market crash is if you cash out before the recovery. I rode out the 2009 crash by leaving my money where it was, and upped my 401k contribution percentage a couple points. I came out smelling like a rose in less than two years (made most of my money back within ONE year). That was by doing little more than absolute nothing! Emotion is NOT the friend of your finances...

    Dollar cost averaging is a good friend to those who are patient.

    re: the illegal immigrant story.... I have mentioned before that my grandfather most likely employed illegal immigrants (construction company...in Texas...in the 1980s--the probability is pretty high) but this does not negatively reflect upon me because a child/young teenager has no control over their grandparents. My grandfather was wrong.

    In this particular instance, I doubt Trump knew about the situation because it is highly unlikely that he hired her personally. Still....the buck has to stop somewhere

    *************

    Keep an eye out for a ruling on Gamble v. United States (17-646) being heard today at the Supreme Court. The question asked is about the "separate sovereigns" exception as it relates to double jeopardy. In other words, can a State charge a person with a crime then, if convicted, can the Federal Government subsequently charge that person with the same crime? (or vice versa--Federal case first, State case second). It is possible that a decision here could have future impact on potential convictions arising from the Mueller Investigation, especially if Trump subsequently hands out pardons for Federal crimes.
  • LadyRhianLadyRhian Member Posts: 14,694
    And this also happened:
    Six Detroit-area doctors charged in $500M opioid scheme
    https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/macomb-county/2018/12/06/feds-allege-six-detroit-area-doctors-fueled-opioid-crisis-health-care-fraud-conspiracy/2225239002/
    The scheme started in January 2013 and continued until last month and involved charging Medicare, Medicaid and Blue Cross/Blue Shield of Michigan for medically unnecessary services and equipment, the indictment alleges.
    The conspiracy cost Medicare more than $182.5 million, $272.6 million to Medicaid and $9.2 million to Blue Cross/Blue Shield, according to the indictment.

    The main main indicted is from India and is 77 years old. He's considered a national hero in India for educating people on AIDS, among other acts.

    The three clinics were owned and operated by Dr. Rajendra Bothra, 77, of Bloomfield Hills, a surgeon, humanitarian and politician. In 1999, Bothra was presented with the highest civilian honor bestowed in India, known as the Padmashri.
    Bothra was cited for humanitarian efforts in India, which included educating people about AIDS, the dangers of tobacco and alcohol, and fundraising efforts for medical equipment.

    But in America, he very much overprescribed opioids and billed Medicare, Medicaid and Blue Cross/Blue Shield for unneeded medical procedures and pills. Lots and Lots of pills (or as Left For Dead says it. "Peels")

    That's a shizzload of money, then again, that's an absolute TON of pills.
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,317
    John Bolton has said he knew in advance of Meng's arrest. Although he said he wasn't commenting on this particular case he also took the opportunity to complain about China's trade practices - which strongly suggests to me that this arrest was indeed politically motivated. If that does prove to be the case it's inconceivable that China would back down from the current argument as a result, so my guess is we're heading for an intensification of the trade war.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Nothing less than a totally new election will suffice in North Carolina:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/republican-officials-had-early-warnings-of-voting-irregularities-in-north-carolina/2018/12/06/b3e5c6d4-f8bf-11e8-8c9a-860ce2a8148f_story.html?utm_term=.c1a2244026bf

    Keep in mind, this is not, strictly speaking, "voter fraud". Voter fraud would be the act on single individuals voting multiple times. It not only rarely ever happens, but is a ridiculously inefficient (and maybe impossible) way to steal and election. What seems to have happened in NC is election fraud, a systematic attempt to negate or inflate large swaths of votes.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited December 2018
    Back on 16 November, not long after losing his election bid against Ted Cruz, Robert Francis O'Rourke met with former President Barack Obama; the two discussed Mr. O'Rourke's future political career. The 2020 campaign season has already begun and, tuthfully, I consider RFO to be the current the Democratic front-runner. Some people who could enter that race are too old (Sanders, Biden, Warren), don't have the name recognition that O'Rourke does (Harris, Landrieu, Booker, Castro), or are damaged goods who should be avoided (Clinton).

    edit/add: incidentally, the DIJA closed only 80 points down versus yesterday's close, which translates to -0.32%.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Back on 16 November, not long after losing his election bid against Ted Cruz, Robert Francis O'Rourke met with former President Barack Obama; the two discussed Mr. O'Rourke's future political career. The 2020 campaign season has already begun and, tuthfully, I consider RFO to be the current the Democratic front-runner. Some people who could enter that race are too old (Sanders, Biden, Warren), don't have the name recognition that O'Rourke does (Harris, Landrieu, Booker, Castro), or are damaged goods who should be avoided (Clinton).

    edit/add: incidentally, the DIJA closed only 80 points down versus yesterday's close, which translates to -0.32%.

    It's a long way from 2020 let's focus on the mess at hand, the Trump administration, before declaring Trump's challenger for 2020.
  • WarChiefZekeWarChiefZeke Member Posts: 2,651
    edited December 2018

    Nothing less than a totally new election will suffice in North Carolina:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/republican-officials-had-early-warnings-of-voting-irregularities-in-north-carolina/2018/12/06/b3e5c6d4-f8bf-11e8-8c9a-860ce2a8148f_story.html?utm_term=.c1a2244026bf

    Keep in mind, this is not, strictly speaking, "voter fraud". Voter fraud would be the act on single individuals voting multiple times. It not only rarely ever happens, but is a ridiculously inefficient (and maybe impossible) way to steal and election. What seems to have happened in NC is election fraud, a systematic attempt to negate or inflate large swaths of votes.

    Wait, they are accused of ballot harvesting? That may be illegal in that state, and any violation of state law should be prosecuted, especially given the fact that this is an unfair advantage, but California legalized this and this practice is benign. Ballot harvesting just means delivering someone's vote to the polling stations. It is not a voter suppression or voter fraud tool in any way. It is supposed to make voting easier.

    Using an illegal method to win more votes than your opponent is scum behavior, but ballot harvesting is a good thing provided the votes delivered are verified.
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