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Baldur's Gate III released into Early Access

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  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,202
    Let me say that I absolutely hate elemental surfaces, I think it's absurd they will do more damage and are more troublesome to deal with than Alchemist's fire that just require a DC 10 Dex check to extinguish. Also, a fire elemental surface will deal around twice the damage of Alchemist Fire/round.

    And yet I really like the preview of BG3, it's a fun game that, for me, just got better when they removed some elemental surfaces. I would love if it would become an optional rule.

    ArviaJuliusBorisovSjerrieelminster
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,795
    edited April 16
    DinoDin wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    kanisatha wrote: »
    Sure. And that's why we have AAA D&D games currently being made by studios named Tuque Games, Hidden Path Entertainment, and OtherSide Entertainment. As I have suspected for some time, I think it is rather clear that a lot of the rah-rah BG3 stuff people have been posting is actually all about rah-rah Larian. Well, I'll be blunt by saying that for me Larian is a subpar studio that makes subpar games. People "raving" about the D:OS games means nothing to me, because people rave about all kinds of silly and ridiculous things in today's society.

    It has nothing to do with being a cheerleader for Larian. If anything, it's my natural instinct to reject the gaming community's tendency to wallow in negativity as a hobby more enjoyable to some than actually playing games. It isn't limited to Baldur's Gate 3.

    Yep, if this was RPGCodex there'd be a few wallowing in negativity about some other aspect of BG3, as opposed to its TB combat or whatever. If some folks wanna stay unsatisfied about the game, that's fine. No Larian "cheerleader" here or elsewhere is going to change your mind.

    But, there are some undeniable facts. The praise for the OS games -- right now -- is basically equivalent to the praise the IE games got on release. Near universal critical acclaim from fans and critics. Copycat-ing and praise from other professional studios in the genre. All for a studio that was relatively unknown prior to their release. Time will tell if Larian's style of RPG's have the longevity of the IE games. But they're undeniably off to a strong start.

    Also, I always feel like a weirdo in some of these debates on here, as someone who pretty much appreciates all of the new generation RPG's. I struggle to understand why some gamers are so mad about "today's society". There has never been a better time for this subgenre.

    Playing World of Warcraft while spending any time on YouTube channels about the game and the forums reveal quite clearly that people are willing to play a game for YEARS after they have clearly stopped enjoying it simply so they can endlessly shit on it. It's an MMO, it's a grind to keep you logged in. Been true since Everquest. Every patch for the last decade has more or less followed the same pattern. Yet every time one is a month late, or people blaze through content on release week like a cheetah on cocaine, they run to the nearest comment section to talk about how they aren't getting their $14.99 worth of enjoyment.

    I have often become disillusioned with the game, which means more to me personally than any other, mostly due to time-limited content that gets removed. When that has happened, I deal with it by taking the 30 seconds it takes to unsubscribe. Even given my feelings, I can never stay away for good. But there is an entire industry on YouTube that produces nothing but "the sky is falling" content about video games on a daily basis. It's all gotten so, so tiresome.

    BelgarathMTHArvia
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,308
    Arvia wrote: »
    I understand people being frustrated because their expectations of BG3 weren't met, be it because they dislike the mechanics typical for Larian's design, or the adapted implementation of 5E rules, but I don't believe every new game from now on will be a copy of BG3, because history doesn't show this tendency, either.
    I agree with this, @Arvia. And in fact, I look forward to the release of such games as Solasta, P:WotR, Black Geyser, Avowed, and whatever AAA D&D game Hidden Path is making where I can happily post very positive things about those games. :smile:

    Sjerrie
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,616
    Ammar wrote: »
    Isn't acclaiming the game a pre-requisite for being considered a fan? If you look at fans of the BG franchise as a whole, then reactions are more mixed. It's true that critics are overwhelmingly positive on the game.

    I really feel that there is this very unkind tendency to see people who dislike this as some sort of grumpy old man who whine about the good old days and have nothing better to do than bitch about the game all the time. It's really hard to argue against that.

    That's fair. I do think there's a different ethos in the way these things are received, the difference in which causes a lot of friction.

    I dont personally want to play any and every RPG released these days. Some of them just arent "for me". Solasta is a good example - it seems to put emphasis away from storytelling and onto set piece room encounters that just doesnt interest me a lot. That said, I'm glad it's being made - and I dont want it to change to suit my interests. There's an audience for that kind of game, and they deserve it.

    So my net opinion on the existence of Solasta is very positive, even if I dont plan to play it. I would never accuse the studio making Solasta as being bad because they made a game that didnt specifically cater to my tastes. That's not the definition of a bad studio (or a bad game) in my opinion. I think therein lies a key difference that causes a lot of issues.

    To try and use a different example: I'm not a big fan of country music, but that doesnt mean I think country musicians are bad artists, and it doesnt mean I dont want them to have a platform and be successful. (and to speak to what @Arvia said, I dont worry about the possibility that every band will sound like them in 10 years)


    Also, I just want to be clear - I'm not accusing you of anything to the contrary of what I've posted above. I am saying that the ethos I have (and maybe others) creates friction with people who say something like "I dont like this feature of a game, and that means this game is bad". That's just philosophically antithetical to my point of view, irrespective of my excitement for BG3.

    It also doesnt mean that there isnt room to think there are plenty of things about BG3 (or any game) that dont meet one's expectations. As much as I like D:OS2, I do think elemental surfaces are overplayed. I do think the game is sometimes a little too cute and too glib. I think that while the story is compelling, I never felt super invested in Rivellion(sp?).

    DinoDinArviamlnevesemegamike15
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,424
    To be fair, Ammar, I think you've been one of the more eloquent critics on here. Even though I took issue with your last description of combat encounters in OS, I still think you're one of the most fair-minded critics of BG3 on here.

    mlnevese
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    I am late to the party.
    Funny to see a BG3 thread on the beamdog forums.

    I bought the game for a single reason and admitedly I am an extremist. I checked the game graphics / artistic level on streams after EA release and it revived my desire to see the Baldur's Gate City in 3D rendered/created by talented artists.
    And three playthroughs later, that's the only thing that still excites me.
    To be fair let's mention the lore elements injected here and there, much appreciated.

    I largely concur with @Ammar 's points.
    I think the BG3 writings are mediocre and the scenario falls flat after the prologue (at least for now). Moreover month after month, the game departs from the DnD rules.
    The UI, inventory, party management commands were disastrous and are still a pita.
    I bet the name itself probably attracted most of the initial customers, it is still a Baldur's Gate / Sword Coast license though but I am afraid that many people may feel cheated in the end.

    The studio argued about settings that should/should not be implemented but when it comes to tactical combat and all the DnD features associated with low level characters, another studio with a micro budget proved them wrong (Tactical Adventures - Solasta).

    If you look at Larian's combat AI, it's nice on paper. It manages the environment / movement / and has a huge system of weighted parameters to orientate the engine decision.
    It's probably impressive enough to convince journalists and other influencial third parties. By the way it performs very well when it comes to manage ultra basic advantages, movement, placement, verticality and how to deny these advantages to the opponents.
    But that's it. I am not aware of any in-depth tactical module based on this Divinity engine.
    Supposedly, by nature, it reduces or it can even suppress the need to develop tailored scripts. In reality the whole game layout is influenced by this simplistic urgent need of (over)verticality, surface, explosions, deceptive shove action, ridiculous jumps on steroid. This can be applied to and then negate the nature, richness and subtility of any tactical settings.
    In the end, even the most interesting fights feel very scripted (The Hag for instance) and ironically if you want to experience a real tactical fight, it often takes unusual efforts not to send your opponents flying in the void or deadly water (even if they have ten times your weight...) - the very last possible fight comes to mind.

    I still have high expectations for the game but certainly not as a tactical playground. Million miles away from Pillars of Eternity and even the archaic script engine in BG can provide better content.
    I may end up experiencing the whole game in a kind of story mode. I despise the video game trend that wants you to be the hero of a movie but this is what it is.

    NoonSjerrie
  • mlnevesemlnevese Member, Moderator Posts: 10,202
    Not in a hurry... polish the game as much as possible. Nobody wants to see another Cyberpunk 2077 disaster.

    SjerriekanisathaZaxareselminster
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,308
    mlnevese wrote: »
    Not in a hurry... polish the game as much as possible. Nobody wants to see another Cyberpunk 2077 disaster.
    Yup. Given how many things about the game are currently "wrong" imo, the longer they take to finish the game the better the odds become that more of my issues with the game will get changed/fixed.

    It has been extremely satisfying for me on the Larian BG3 subforum to find that increasingly more and more posters there, people who are fundamentally Larian and BG3 fans, have the same concerns I've been talking about for months, namely that many of the Larian homebrew mechanics and systems introduced into the game are horrible/unbalanced/game-breaking. People who used to clash with me hard a year ago are now saying the same things I am saying. Very nice to see. :smile:

    mlneveseSjerrie
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 828
    edited June 21
    I see that the thread of bg3 is still the same bg3 thread. Kinda disturbingly comforting in these strange times.

    kanisatha wrote: »
    GameSpot interview with Vincke yesterday. Not much in new details other than confirmation of no release of the full game this year and possibly not even next year.


    Yes please, easy does it. No hurry. Plenty of things to polish. I hope they keep getting feedback and changing things.

    I do not say that they must apply everything of the tabletop in the videogame, but I still do not understand much the insistence on " [ D&D5e] things does not translate well to a videogame" If "Solasta" showed us something is that 95% of the ruleset could be usable in a videogame.

    Despite the limitations of an indie game of a small studio with low budget they implemented most of the D&D5e SRD actions, reactions, spells, etc, and many custom ones in a 3D D&D videogame. (And I´m reluctant to compare both games in something that is not the combat mechanics: one is clearly a fine party-based dungeon crawler, Bg3 is more story-based with companions. That would be like comparing bg
    and IWD or the kingmaker OC and the BtSL campaign. Same mechanics, different games).

    It would be better if they say "Not in the vision we have of a videogame" I mean, you can do just fine without the HP bloat of the enemies and the massive environmental fire damage.


    I didn´t play the beta since the Druid class patch. ¿Anything new of note?

    kanisatha
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 523
    PsicoVic wrote: »
    but I still do not understand much the insistence on " [ D&D5e] things does not translate well to a videogame" If "Solasta" showed us something is that 95% of the ruleset could be usable in a videogame.

    They can not exactly tell "the scope of the task was enormous and we tried to cut the corners using our old tested games with a few DnD rules added on top", can they? It is also not a lie, BG, IWD - practically any game changed the rules to add dynamics and compensate for the lack of DM.

    Solasta is very DnD, true (there are some adjustments they had to do too, though). But the size of the game is much smaller, simpler, and can allow itself to concentrate on combat rules implementations. Not to mention, it is for original DnD fans, while Larians have their own audience they can not ignore.

    BG3 is a very good game, even at this stage. A compromise between rulesets allows Larians to make it great by saving time and money. I'd say, a good trade-off.
    PsicoVic wrote: »
    I didn´t play the beta since the Druid class patch. ¿Anything new of note?

    No, not yet. But they have to present the rest of the classes sooner or later for a test, so, we are waiting.

    JuliusBorisovBallpointManPsicoVic
  • MusignyMusigny Member Posts: 1,027
    kanisatha wrote: »
    It has been extremely satisfying for me on the Larian BG3 subforum to find that increasingly more and more posters there, people who are fundamentally Larian and BG3 fans, have the same concerns I've been talking about for months, namely that many of the Larian homebrew mechanics and systems introduced into the game are horrible/unbalanced/game-breaking. People who used to clash with me hard a year ago are now saying the same things I am saying. Very nice to see. :smile:

    I wouldn't hold my breath. It seems pretty obvious that, as part of the game specifications, they locked most parts of the engine. A major modification is the move to vulkan for plenty of good reasons (performance, aesthetics, running on Stadia), otherwise their engines experience no fundamental modification.
    Even without playing the game you can guess what they attempt to do, just read the old interviews (they tend to disappear from the Internet though).
    Interaction with the environment was a promoted key point for the DoS games but they can't just promote the same thing over and over.
    This time though we were gratified in a different way : "DnD (5e)" and "tabletop experience" are the key words (or were the key words). People started to doubt about it when the EA became available. Solasta provided a severe comparison point for them and the rich Pathfinder experience (with another setting) also highlights what a tabletop experience is more likely to look like.
    However the real point easy to notice is that when asked about what's really new/innovative in their game they often quote the dialogue sequences, fully voiced and actually mocap'd by actors. Even the dialogues themselves see a paradigm change. In other games they tend to be dense and compact story wise (yes you may see walls of text in Infinity Engine games but the info delivered is quite dense). Here those dialogues seem to be far more streched to give substance to the actor work / graphical representation work. Overall it reminds me of Mass Effect about a decade later.

    Sylvus_MoonbowkanisathaSjerrie
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 523
    DinoDin wrote: »
    Can see some Kingmaker influence there in the addition of boosting skill check rolls and adding a camping resource. Definitely good mechanics to copy, imo.

    Camping resources would be the influence of PoE. But I suspect it comes mostly from reading the posts or simply thinking about how to implement that DnD mechanic without things like day/night cycles.

    PsicoVicDinoDin
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,795
    I think any arguments they are ignoring feedback at this point are pretty absurd. It may not be the game some people want (and I understand why), but I think it would be foolish to argue they aren't trying their hearts out to live up to the license they have been given and make the best D&D experience they can.

    PsicoVicDinoDinMirandelBallpointMan
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,308
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I think any arguments they are ignoring feedback at this point are pretty absurd. It may not be the game some people want (and I understand why), but I think it would be foolish to argue they aren't trying their hearts out to live up to the license they have been given and make the best D&D experience they can.
    Sorry, strongly disagree. They are largely ignoring feedback (up to now), and claiming otherwise is what is absurd to me. If you have a list of 100 things (hypothetically speaking) people have said are problems, and the developer picks one or two of the more smaller of those complaints to address, that is absolutely ignoring feedback.

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 1,257
    I'm liking the changes to Background being more meaningful and the Camping 2.0 rules. :) Some of my first D&D CRPGs had similar food mechanics for resting, so I'll always have a soft spot for them. That said, I do know that some players LOATHE such mechanics, so maybe it might be a good idea for Larian to make it an optional toggle in the Settings or something.

    JuliusBorisovDinoDinArvia
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,308
    Cahir wrote: »
    You do realize that they have discussed only the major features that are coming with this patch, not all changes they've made?
    None of us can comment on any changes they have made but haven't shown. The changes shown in this patch are minor.
    PsicoVic wrote: »
    Logically they cannot address all the requests of all the people and of course, many people will prefer another kind of game, but I agree with @Jistrata that they are continually and steadily making changes in the game based on the feedback of people actually playing it, as previously stated.
    Maybe just not the changes some people want, but still, you cannot objectively say they are ignoring feedback anymore.
    So long as they made at least one change, one can say they are "objectively" not ignoring feedback. But that is an unacceptable benchmark for judging how the game is progressing. On the Larian forum there are multiple open threads listing the forum community's issues with the game. These lists run into dozens of issues, and yes hardly any of those issues have been addressed.

    But no surprise that in this forum only BG3 cheerleading posts are welcome. In fact, it is pretty clear most of the critics of BG3 have been driven out of this forum and I am essentially the last remaining one. I'll post my criticisms to the Larian forum from now on, where criticism is openly welcomed and shared by many of the other posters. You guys can have your tiny little echo chamber here, and I'll only just keep pointing *this* out from now on.

  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,424
    edited July 12
    Zaxares wrote: »
    I'm liking the changes to Background being more meaningful and the Camping 2.0 rules. :) Some of my first D&D CRPGs had similar food mechanics for resting, so I'll always have a soft spot for them. That said, I do know that some players LOATHE such mechanics, so maybe it might be a good idea for Larian to make it an optional toggle in the Settings or something.

    I'm gonna pipe up against optional toggles. It's actually one of the things that I liked about the Original Sin games. They were designed with very few difficulty settings. And ultimately felt like some of the most fair CRPG difficulty experiences I've had in quite some time.

    I know that, on paper, having a bunch of difficulty settings seems like the right way to go. More players get to play the game in the way they want! But in reality players can't actually know what difficulty settings they'd prefer going into a game for the first time. Certainly not at a granular level. And it forces designers to have to build "fair difficulty" for many different settings. That's much more work. IMO, if players want a rest-for-free mode, that's what mods are for.

    BallpointManArvia
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,616
    Late to the party - but I agree that it's clear Larian has been making lots of changes to the game since it was announced. There are literally dozens and dozens of examples of those changes, some of which have been pointed out above.

    I also think it's an unfair criticism to decide that if there are 100 things that need changed, and because they arent all changed at the same time - that Larian is not responsive to feedback. Of those hypothetical 100 things, they may only make 5 changes at a time, and see where the product ends up. The development is iterative. Once those 5 changes make sense, they'll reevaluate the next 5 things in the pipeline and determine if those need to be changed.

    DinoDin wrote: »
    Zaxares wrote: »
    I'm liking the changes to Background being more meaningful and the Camping 2.0 rules. :) Some of my first D&D CRPGs had similar food mechanics for resting, so I'll always have a soft spot for them. That said, I do know that some players LOATHE such mechanics, so maybe it might be a good idea for Larian to make it an optional toggle in the Settings or something.

    I'm gonna pipe up against optional toggles. It's actually one of the things that I liked about the Original Sin games. They were designed with very few difficulty settings. And ultimately felt like some of the most fair CRPG difficulty experiences I've had in quite some time.

    I know that, on paper, having a bunch of difficulty settings seems like the right way to go. More players get to play the game in the way they want! But in reality players can't actually know what difficulty settings they'd prefer going into a game for the first time. Certainly not at a granular level. And it forces designers to have to build "fair difficulty" for many different settings. That's much more work. IMO, if players want a rest-for-free mode, that's what mods are for.


    I agree and disagree. I also think a game is ultimately developed in a tighter/better way when the developers do not allow so much customization of difficulty (If done properly, the game ends up in a more balanced state in my opinion).

    That said, I dont expect that to be the majority opinion, and the tradeoff doesnt have to be dramatic between the two. I think most of us on here are fans of PF:KM as the obvious comparison - but I believe their approach to difficulty ultimately harmed the game a bit (not so much as to diminish how good the game is, though).

    ArviaDinoDin
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 828
    edited July 13
    I concur the new mechanics about long rests and camping would reminisce the PF:K mechanics, indeed; but to be fair the PF videogames have time restrictions, and in BG3 (Despite the plot of "I need to get rid of the tadpole fast!") at least in the beta you can take all the time you want to explore the world, talk to people, etc. so I do think that even it could make the game more challenging, it does not make it much more difficult ( You also have cheap, easy ways to heal yourself like food, rests are mostly to regain spells and abilities and some classes/subclasses -wizards, warlocks, land druids, rogues, fighters- could resuply with short rests).

    The camping 2.0 makes camping more interesting, tho, having to find supplies and with new camps in the wild.

    Arvia
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 828
    edited July 15
    []
    Cahir wrote: »

    And no, they don't change the game to RTwP or change the title to something else

    BTW If anyone is curious about why the default name of the BG3 MC is "Tav" it´s because before Baldur's Gate 3 was officially announced the game was in production under the codename Project Gustav (seemingly because Sven´s dog) so people outside larian and Wotc does not notice what they´re working on.
    https://www.destructoid.com/larian-studios-next-game-is-codenamed-project-gustav/

    wnn6z8uqo4f61.png



    So in the end the protagonist was called TAV.

    PD: I was pronouncing the name in a wrong way. Still am. :D



    Post edited by PsicoVic on
    JuliusBorisovArviaDinoDinmlnevese
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