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[Kickstarter] Pathfinder 2: Wrath of the Righteous

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  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited August 2021
    I don't know how it will turn out, but the IDEA of Mythic Paths are being able to "ascend" by completing certain tasks is a great one that I really value in games like this. Besides the obvious choices of Demon and Lich for Evil characters, you also have the Swam That Walks, which comes across to me as some kind of insectoid version of Wilbur Whatley meets Padan Fain from The Wheel of Time, which might be even cooler than the Lich, to be honest.
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,819
    edited August 2021
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I don't know how it will turn out, but the IDEA of Mythic Paths are being able to "ascend" by completing certain tasks is a great one that I really value in games like this. Besides the obvious choices of Demon and Lich for Evil characters, you also have the Swam That Walks, which comes across to me as some kind of insectoid version of Wilbur Whatley meets Padan Fain from The Wheel of Time, which might be even cooler than the Lich, to be honest.

    Watching the trailers (which showed all the details up close) I realized how beautiful this game is (specific cartoonish aesthetics aside). I get the feeling Owlcat did learn their lessons and did not reuse assets that much this time. This is looking promising.
    Post edited by Cahir on
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,308
    Cahir wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    I don't know how it will turn out, but the IDEA of Mythic Paths are being able to "ascend" by completing certain tasks is a great one that I really value in games like this. Besides the obvious choices of Demon and Lich for Evil characters, you also have the Swam That Walks, which comes across to me as some kind of insectoid version of Wilbur Whatley meets Padan Fain from The Wheel of Time, which might be even cooler than the Lich, to be honest.

    Watching the trailers (which showed all the details up close) I realized how beautiful this game is (specific cartoonish aesthetics aside). I get the feeling Owlcat did learn their lessons and did not reused assets that much this time. This is looking promising.
    I also wish the art-style was not so cartoonish. This is something that bothers me greatly about Larian's games, though at least here this is something endemic to Paizo's Pathfinder product so it is not really Owlcat's fault. But still, I wish that aspect could be toned down a bit.

    But yeah, overall, the game looks fantastic, especially the environmental art assets.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,727
    edited August 2021
    Owlcat Games' response during the AMA regarding the most difficult aspects of working on these games:

    Hey guys! Thank you a lot for your support and hope you're having a good time!

    Kingmaker was our first game, and that was a big challenge in itself as we were traversing this path in the first time.

    Most difficult aspect in WotR was probably to decide how to improve on the foundation we had to make it a better experience, both storywise and mechanically. Transition from a more bright, adventurous Kingmaker to a darker, grim setting of Wrath was a challenge as well.


    And from their Narrative Designer:

    3 (difficult): Keeping track of all the possible decisions, outcomes and their unexpected interactions.

    2 (hard): Coming up with distinct voices for differen characters, and keeping everyone in character.

    1 (impossible): Writing romance without being cringe!
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Owlcat Games' response during the AMA regarding the most difficult aspects of working on these games:

    Hey guys! Thank you a lot for your support and hope you're having a good time!

    Kingmaker was our first game, and that was a big challenge in itself as we were traversing this path in the first time.

    Most difficult aspect in WotR was probably to decide how to improve on the foundation we had to make it a better experience, both storywise and mechanically. Transition from a more bright, adventurous Kingmaker to a darker, grim setting of Wrath was a challenge as well.


    And from their Narrative Designer:

    3 (difficult): Keeping track of all the possible decisions, outcomes and their unexpected interactions.

    2 (hard): Coming up with distinct voices for differen characters, and keeping everyone in character.

    1 (impossible): Writing romance without being cringe!

    There is a pretty well-known saying that 2nd games in a series are better because the people involved now "know how to make a game". In my opinion, there are very few sequels in this genre made by the same studio that are inferior to their predecessors. In most cases, the 2nd effort is infinitely better and more ambitious, but also tighter and more focused.
  • BallpointManBallpointMan Member Posts: 1,659
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Owlcat Games' response during the AMA regarding the most difficult aspects of working on these games:

    Hey guys! Thank you a lot for your support and hope you're having a good time!

    Kingmaker was our first game, and that was a big challenge in itself as we were traversing this path in the first time.

    Most difficult aspect in WotR was probably to decide how to improve on the foundation we had to make it a better experience, both storywise and mechanically. Transition from a more bright, adventurous Kingmaker to a darker, grim setting of Wrath was a challenge as well.


    And from their Narrative Designer:

    3 (difficult): Keeping track of all the possible decisions, outcomes and their unexpected interactions.

    2 (hard): Coming up with distinct voices for differen characters, and keeping everyone in character.

    1 (impossible): Writing romance without being cringe!

    There is a pretty well-known saying that 2nd games in a series are better because the people involved now "know how to make a game". In my opinion, there are very few sequels in this genre made by the same studio that are inferior to their predecessors. In most cases, the 2nd effort is infinitely better and more ambitious, but also tighter and more focused.

    I think Dragon Age 2 would like to speak with you, but it's currently locked in my basement.

    but I agree in general - sequels are usually better than the original, and I'm hoping that'll be the case here. A lot of things I didnt love in the first seem like they're being reexamined.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Owlcat Games' response during the AMA regarding the most difficult aspects of working on these games:

    Hey guys! Thank you a lot for your support and hope you're having a good time!

    Kingmaker was our first game, and that was a big challenge in itself as we were traversing this path in the first time.

    Most difficult aspect in WotR was probably to decide how to improve on the foundation we had to make it a better experience, both storywise and mechanically. Transition from a more bright, adventurous Kingmaker to a darker, grim setting of Wrath was a challenge as well.


    And from their Narrative Designer:

    3 (difficult): Keeping track of all the possible decisions, outcomes and their unexpected interactions.

    2 (hard): Coming up with distinct voices for differen characters, and keeping everyone in character.

    1 (impossible): Writing romance without being cringe!

    There is a pretty well-known saying that 2nd games in a series are better because the people involved now "know how to make a game". In my opinion, there are very few sequels in this genre made by the same studio that are inferior to their predecessors. In most cases, the 2nd effort is infinitely better and more ambitious, but also tighter and more focused.

    I think Dragon Age 2 would like to speak with you, but it's currently locked in my basement.

    but I agree in general - sequels are usually better than the original, and I'm hoping that'll be the case here. A lot of things I didnt love in the first seem like they're being reexamined.

    I tend to overlook Dragon Age as I've bounced off it so many times and just can't get into it's world no matter how hard I try. But I do know some people swear by the story in Dragon Age 2 despite the monotonous combat.
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,573
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    jjstraka34 wrote: »
    Owlcat Games' response during the AMA regarding the most difficult aspects of working on these games:

    Hey guys! Thank you a lot for your support and hope you're having a good time!

    Kingmaker was our first game, and that was a big challenge in itself as we were traversing this path in the first time.

    Most difficult aspect in WotR was probably to decide how to improve on the foundation we had to make it a better experience, both storywise and mechanically. Transition from a more bright, adventurous Kingmaker to a darker, grim setting of Wrath was a challenge as well.


    And from their Narrative Designer:

    3 (difficult): Keeping track of all the possible decisions, outcomes and their unexpected interactions.

    2 (hard): Coming up with distinct voices for differen characters, and keeping everyone in character.

    1 (impossible): Writing romance without being cringe!

    There is a pretty well-known saying that 2nd games in a series are better because the people involved now "know how to make a game". In my opinion, there are very few sequels in this genre made by the same studio that are inferior to their predecessors. In most cases, the 2nd effort is infinitely better and more ambitious, but also tighter and more focused.

    I think Dragon Age 2 would like to speak with you, but it's currently locked in my basement.

    but I agree in general - sequels are usually better than the original, and I'm hoping that'll be the case here. A lot of things I didnt love in the first seem like they're being reexamined.

    I tend to overlook Dragon Age as I've bounced off it so many times and just can't get into it's world no matter how hard I try. But I do know some people swear by the story in Dragon Age 2 despite the monotonous combat.

    One key thing here is that DA2 took a pretty large departure with the gameplay mechanics. Whereas DAO played alot like the IE games, DA2 took a turn somewhat towards Elder Scrolls type games -- albeit not all the way.

    In fact, I'd argue this is a solid reason why it doesn't have the same sequel praise as BG2 does over BG1. And I'd even add Deadfire into this camp of sequels that changed far too many game mechanics to be able to do what a sequel can do best.

    I'm very optimistic here with Owlcat. As I think the choice to not try and re-invent the wheel is going to pay off just as it did for Bioware decades ago with BG. IMO, games with a great deal of complexity, like these CRPG's benefit immensely from the designers iterating over and over again on the same basic ruleset.
  • ilduderinoilduderino Member Posts: 773
    Glad it's not just me, I have played and loved so many RPGs over the years, Gold Box, ToEE, all the IE games, ME trilogy, and I could never get into the Dragon Age games, there is something very bland about them
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited August 2021
    I didn't mind Dragon Age Origins when it came out. But I tried playing it again recently and I just couldn't muster any interest.

    I never played 2 but did play Inquisition a bit. However, I found the control scheme to be really frustrating (it felt very much like a console game) and the combat wasn't very interesting either.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    edited August 2021
    elminster wrote: »
    I didn't mind Dragon Age Origins when it came out. But I tried playing it again recently and I just couldn't muster any interest.

    I never played 2 but did play Inquisitions a bit. However, I found the control scheme to be really frustrating (it felt very much like a console game) and the combat wasn't very interesting either.

    The first game is trying desperately to do real-time with pause in a 3D environment while trying to establish an IP that isn't reliant on the D&D license. I think it's fairly clear a huge influence was George RR Martin books and the Lord of the Rings trilogy and it just feels......bland. The second game is more interesting but suffers from some of the most mind-numbingly repetitive combat in history. And the third has, as you said, a bizarre combat scheme, and it also is basically an MMO. Except MMOs do what it is trying to do (mindless tasks to pass time and check off lists) way better. I have seriously tried to like it. I've just given up.

    The Darkspawn are orcs, for all intents and purposes. And you fight more of them than the entirety of Urak-Hai army at Helms Deep. The story is trying to be grounded in realistic political concerns, but I have to say, nothing interests me less than the "Templar Order" in anything. I have the same problem with Assassin's Creed games, which would be far better if they were just one-off stories set in historical time periods.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    As someone who was pretty salty with how Kingmaker turned out (Let us roleplay above easy!), I never had an issue with the more cartoony art style. Stylized graphics ALWAYS age better than attempted realism.
  • kanisathakanisatha Member Posts: 1,308
    elminster wrote: »
    I didn't mind Dragon Age Origins when it came out. But I tried playing it again recently and I just couldn't muster any interest.

    I never played 2 but did play Inquisition a bit. However, I found the control scheme to be really frustrating (it felt very much like a console game) and the combat wasn't very interesting either.
    I liked all three DA games and am very eagerly following and looking forward to DA4. Given how much I love and value (A) party-based games, and (B) RTwP combat, I'll take the DA games over a lot of other RPGs any day.
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    edited September 2021
    Owlcat Games' response during the AMA regarding the most difficult aspects of working on these games:

    Hey guys! Thank you a lot for your support and hope you're having a good time!

    Kingmaker was our first game, and that was a big challenge in itself as we were traversing this path in the first time.

    Most difficult aspect in WotR was probably to decide how to improve on the foundation we had to make it a better experience, both storywise and mechanically. Transition from a more bright, adventurous Kingmaker to a darker, grim setting of Wrath was a challenge as well.


    And from their Narrative Designer:

    3 (difficult): Keeping track of all the possible decisions, outcomes and their unexpected interactions.

    2 (hard): Coming up with distinct voices for differen characters, and keeping everyone in character.

    1 (impossible): Writing romance without being cringe!

    The last answer is pure gold.

    I found some answers interesting, the ones about the roleplaying of the Mythic paths after they decided that mythic paths are now open to all alignments (So you can be a demon monk or a paladin lich)



    OwlcatThainen
    it generally goes this way: as you choose a mythic path, you start a long questline that requires you to make decisions. If you act against the mythic path's expected alignment, you keep your roleplaying integrity, but miss some of the opportunities the mythic path gives you. You can end up being a good lich, or a lawful trickster, keep most of your powers, and reach the ending, but this way you won't explore all the opportunities that mythic path presents.
    It's complicated. Each alignment is tied to a specific bunch of alignments, and the actions you take on that path tend to fall into these alignments. You can be a good Lich, but you'll have to skip some of the more evil actions this path includes. You'll be able to end the story as a good-aligned Lich, but you won't be very good at being the Lich :)
    From the beginning, one of our main concern was to not make a game exclusively for Lawful Good Paladins Of Law And Goodness. There are whole mythic paths dedicated to the path of Evil.


  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    Mortismal, a very lucky guy just played the entire game thanks to Owlcat and made this pre-release review if you are interested (it has minimal spoilers, but some, mostly about game mechanics)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2xJt19Ri74
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2021
    Just my thoughts here.

    I'm in awe at the scheer number of classes, subclasses, feats, and options in the game. It's really impressive and the character creation screen does a good job at keeping it all understandable (all things considered) .

    So far though I haven't been very gripped by the story. It has a lot of cliches within the first 20 minutes.
    - Big bad attacks during a festival (just like NWN2)
    - The protagonist is afflicted by some unknown illness
    - The protagonist is revealed to be able to use something others can't

    It's also a bit railroady and wouldn't let my evil character attack people even when I wanted to. Even companions seem to be thrust at me when I don't want them.

    Also apparently I'm on the angel mythic path? But I didn't do anything that suggested this was going to be the outcome of the quest I was doing (and I'm playing an evil character and acting like it). This is clearly meant to be the tutorial introduction to the concept. But it feels like they should have chosen a more neutral option.

    It's very easy to lose your selection on most of your party members and they won't follow you if they move. You can use backspace to select all but it's not ideal. It would be nice if the select all button was closer to where the portraits are so it was more obvious.

    They have tab as the default "reveal loot" button. I think Alt is easier to use.

    There are a lot of little quality of life improvements that it could use. Like when you click on a slot in your inventory it should show you what items you can select for that select.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    edited September 2021
    Holy cow, for once Gog delivered in time for once and we got the game at the same time as Steam and Epic games. There is a day-one-patch, but I assume it´s mostly to activate the preload games.

    They changed a lot the game since the last beta, with a revamp of character creation, icons, etc.
    Luckily mounted combat seems to be working fine. (cross fingers). Too soon to talk, but it seems there are not more than minor issues on the first day.


    elminster wrote: »
    Just my thoughts here.

    I'm in awe at the scheer number of classes, subclasses, feats, and options in the game. It's really impressive and the character creation screen does a good job at keeping it all understandable (all things considered) .

    So far though I haven't been very gripped by the story. It has a lot of cliches within the first 20 minutes.
    - Big bad attacks during a festival (just like NWN2)
    - The protagonist is afflicted by some unknown illness
    - The protagonist is revealed to be able to use something others can't

    It's also a bit railroady and wouldn't let my evil character attack people even when I wanted to. Even companions seem to be thrust at me when I don't want them.

    Also apparently I'm on the angel mythic path? But I didn't do anything that suggested this was going to be the outcome of the quest I was doing (and I'm playing an evil character and acting like it). This is clearly meant to be the tutorial introduction to the concept. But it feels like they should have chosen a more neutral option.

    It's very easy to lose your selection on most of your party members and they won't follow you if they move. You can use backspace to select all but it's not ideal. It would be nice if there was at least a select all button.

    They have tab as the default "reveal loot" button. I think Alt is easier to use.

    Er, without spoiling much, you got the main plot wrong ;)

    There is actually a select all button, it´s in the UI, near the inspect button. And you can change the buttons in the settings...

    Yeah, the angel sword is part of the story of the original campaign of Paizo and it´s a tutorial of sorts about the mythic paths dialogue selections, you do not choose the path until much later and Mythic paths have different secondary plots that may or may not differ from the angel path you think you are in.

    Uh, you only get forced 3 companions in the tutorial because you have to make a choice about something.... you can dismiss them about 30 minutes in the campaign, when you get to the
    Defender´s tavern
    , get others, go solo, hire mercenaries made by you, etc.














  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2021
    You caught me right when I changed my post to say its in a bad location. :)

    It should be near the portraits (near Stealth and AI). That's a much more intuitive location then randomly in the corner.
    Post edited by elminster on
  • SharGuidesMyHandSharGuidesMyHand Member Posts: 2,580
    elminster wrote: »
    I didn't mind Dragon Age Origins when it came out. But I tried playing it again recently and I just couldn't muster any interest.

    I thought the visuals and character development and interactions were among the very best of any RPG I've ever played. In those respects, I think the game was a huge improvement over any that had come before, and has been matched by very few since.

    Unfortunately, the mechanics of the game are among the WORST of any high-profile RPG I've ever played - you can't attack enemies until they turn hostile, and you're often forced to travel narrow paths (even outdoors) that prevent you from any maneuvering. Essentially, the game forces you to just blunder headfirst into ambushes over and over again, with very limited strategic options. On top of that, the enemies and combat as a whole become very repetitive very quickly, with endlessly tedious battles against the same old demons and spiders over and over again. IMO, the mechanics were a huge regression from those of the BG/IWD games and have been outdone/corrected by most RPGs since then.

    It's always been quite frustrating to me that a game that was so great in certain respects (IMO) could be so mediocre-to-poor in others.
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    edited September 2021
    I only have to say that I have a vastly different experience with the game. you are battling demons indeed, but they are very different with different tactics and abilities, from the ones that use fire to the raging demons, to the ones that summon undead minions, the teleporting ones, the ones that spread disease, etc.

    There are so many that they had to add new racial enemy types to the rangers, being now demons of might, demons of strength, demons of magic
    I do not remember fighting spiders besides Kenabres, in chapter 1, to be honest o.O
    The game also has a built-in random generator of travel encounters (we are checking it for a mod), so it seems you were extremely unlucky with spiders?

    About the ambushes, I`m used to move in sneak mode and with one character or two with the "see invisible" spell so I usually do the ambushing myself ;)

    2O2n.gif


    PD. In the gazillion difficulty options, there is one to modify the number of enemies, which includes enemies per encounter and also the number of encounters. That applies to the first dungeon too.

    If you find there are too many encounters for your taste, check the option because if you are playing hard mode you may have it to the maximum.
    Post edited by PsicoVic on
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    PsicoVic wrote: »
    I only have to say that I have a vastly different experience with the game. you are battling demons indeed, but they are very different with different tactics and abilities, from the ones that use fire to the raging demons, to the ones that summon undead minions, the teleporting ones, the ones that spread disease, etc.

    There are so many that they had to add new racial enemy types to the rangers, being now demons of might, demons of strength, demons of magic
    I do not remember fighting spiders besides Kenabres, in chapter 1, to be honest o.O
    The game also has a built-in random generator of travel encounters (we are checking it for a mod), so it seems you were extremely unlucky with spiders?

    About the ambushes, I`m used to move in sneak mode and with one character or two with the "see invisible" spell so I usually do the ambushing myself ;)

    2O2n.gif


    PD. In the gazillion difficulty options, there is one to modify the number of enemies, which includes enemies per encounter and also the number of encounters. That applies to the first dungeon too.

    If you find there are too many encounters for your taste, check the option because if you are playing hard mode you may have it to the maximum.

    They were talking about DA:O.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,727
    I couldn't resist the temptation and played the game during the weekend, putting nearly 16 hours in. I'm very impressed by what I'm seeing, and the biggest improvements involve the story, companions, and the exploration feel. Tooltips and other help-related stuff are also nicely made.

    I can tell you that the game gives that BG2 vs BG1 feel to me, in the sense that P:WotC feels as big an improvement over P:K as BG2 feels over BG1 for me. I like that we get a chance to play in the real city with its districts and investigate many of this city's groups, eg. tieflings. I also like the sense of the threat and danger.

    The fights are cool and difficult (I like them) - I play on a modified Hard setting.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited September 2021
    From the 16~ hours I've played of it I'd put it in the 8/10 range.

    There are definitely things I haven't liked about it.

    (I've noted many of these above but I'd also add that the final tutorial levels should be half their current size)

    But it's been engaging enough for me to keep playing it. Plus I don't think there has been a game with this many options for characters since probably Kingmaker.
  • DinoDinDinoDin Member Posts: 1,573
    Good to hear about the city part. One big missed opportunity in Kingmaker was how generic much of the city itself was.
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875
    Restartitis is kicking my butt right now. I think the huge number of options isn’t doing me any favors.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,727
    Nimran wrote: »
    Restartitis is kicking my butt right now. I think the huge number of options isn’t doing me any favors.

    You can freely respec your main character from the ground in the main tavern. So you don't really need a restart to play as a new character. ;)
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited September 2021
    ^That is a decline IMO.

    Anyway, My unique critiques towards the game
    1. Din't liked much companions
    2. Too much bugs( i experienced a couple and looks like lich mp is broken for some)
    3. Too epic in the beginning
    4. The AI still not as great as could be

    And that is it. The game is fenomenal. I played as a non lifer and even skipped the gym some days to play it. Already finished as a lich and now, decided to pick my ch 2 save as a Azata and carry foward. Even with a sub optimal build, had no problem fighting really powerful enemies as a Azata.

    Azata end quest enemy spoiler bellow. But here I'm killing one of the most powerful devils in about two minutes with turn based mode

    I played first as a lich and decided to not do the lich transformation in ch 5. My class?? Cruoromancer. A half vampire which can use his own blood as a catalyst for his necromantic spells making then more deadly and powerful. How not love that class? I wish that I could play kingmaker with that class too and become a fully fledged vampire. Cuz lets be honest, a lich using blood infusions makes no sense. Hence I din't become a lich since I treasure immersion.
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,459
    I've been unable to play due to the game crashing on my laptop so I can only play on the weekends. How long would you say the game is? I remember it taking me 100 hours or so for kingmaker, and heard this was supposed to be shorter but higher replay value, which I'm looking forward to.
  • PsicoVicPsicoVic Member Posts: 868
    Vallmyr wrote: »
    I've been unable to play due to the game crashing on my laptop so I can only play on the weekends. How long would you say the game is? I remember it taking me 100 hours or so for kingmaker, and heard this was supposed to be shorter but higher replay value, which I'm looking forward to.

    I do not know if somebody already finished it, it came a week ago ( Maybe someone lucky guys might =D) but the devs put it on the 80-100 h.
    And we already know there´ll be 3 DlCs. one with a BtSL-type random dungeon generator and two additions to the main campaign.

    That said I think it has high replayability, not only because of the 10 mythic paths with different questlines, but because of the different dialogues you can pick. I found many deities, class, race, etc unique dialogues only in chapters 1-2 only.
    Now you can even pick new deities, like Lamashtu, Urgathoa, etc. A pity you cannot be a goblin =D

    I know that´s some minor things, does not really change much, but I like to find different dialogues for different characters.
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