I don't really count Rasaad to the fighter category, unless there was something called para olympic in BG fighting.
For BG1ee, yes, Rasaad is a feeble fighter ... although as @Lemernis points out, he can't really do anything else, so he's necessarily still in the fighter category.
For BG2ee, however, Rasaad is an excellent fighter. I recently completed a run with Rasaad and Dorn as my front-liners (yes, I know that's a pretty odd combination, but it was all a bit experimental). Dorn was far out-classing Rasaad at first, but they were about equally effective in the second half of SoA, and then in ToB, Rasaad was a significantly better fighter than Dorn - and that's comparing against a Dorn who still had all his powers, not a "fallen" Dorn who gave up his powers for freedom. Rasaad is really, really good once he gets enough levels under his belt!
I don't really count Rasaad to the fighter category, unless there was something called para olympic in BG fighting.
For BG1ee, yes, Rasaad is a feeble fighter ... although as @Lemernis points out, he can't really do anything else, so he's necessarily still in the fighter category.
For BG2ee, however, Rasaad is an excellent fighter. I recently completed a run with Rasaad and Dorn as my front-liners (yes, I know that's a pretty odd combination, but it was all a bit experimental). Dorn was far out-classing Rasaad at first, but they were about equally effective in the second half of SoA, and then in ToB, Rasaad was a significantly better fighter than Dorn - and that's comparing against a Dorn who still had all his powers, not a "fallen" Dorn who gave up his powers for freedom. Rasaad is really, really good once he gets enough levels under his belt!
And even in BGEE for the really tough fights there are definitely enough potions for you to use to pump up Rasaad. You just really need to be in chapter 5 for them to be much more accessible.
I have a BGEE game going with Rasaad where his fighting skills are really felt, since the party of four that he's in are all meleers: Fighter 3/Transmuter, Tiax (who melees), Safana (Swashbuckler), and Rasaad. Rasaad has actually done surprisingly well even from the start. (He is now level 7 in chapter 5.) Maybe it's my imagination, but he seemed squishier to me when he was a pure class Monk. I thought he would be constantly getting badly hurt at low level, but his level of injury has routinely been about the same as anyone else, despite the fact that others have had better AC.
That's interesting, @Lemernis. I can't see why the Sun Soul Monk kit should have made him less squishy in BG1ee than before he was correctly kitted (and I agree that he was pretty squishy before), but maybe there's some reason we've overlooked. But certainly by the time (in BG2ee) he gets to level 14 (when his MR kicks in and his AC bonus is better), he's no longer squishy, and then in ToB he becomes nigh-indestructible.
@Gallowglass, I'm actually kind of disappointed to see that Sun Soul Monk loses Stunning Blow and Quivering Palm, so it's good to know that what the Sun Soul monk does get with the kit still has them as formidable as a pure class. I still haven't used Rasaad yet in BG2EE (or even played BG2EE, for that matter), but I'm definitely looking forward to it.
Voted for Viconia, as I've heard way too many times that "she's the best cleric in BG2", while in my opinion the cleric choice in BG2 is one of the coolest and most meaningful decisions you have to make in regards to choosing companions (if going for a balanced party), as it strongly influences the rest of your party and your group's approach to a lot of encounters. That's because all 3 clerics are perfectly viable and different enough to change the playstyle of your party to an extent, depending on your decision. And that's not even mentioning the druids or all the other roles.
Just one of the million reasons why Baldur's Gate games are so great.
I say Imoen because for me she doesn't fit. Her personality is awful and no matter what your alignment is she doesn't really add to the story. I have a LE assassin (I made her based off Artimes Entreri) and pretty much want nothing to do with Imoen. Granted this is my opinion and the way I RP.
As far as overrated goes: Viconia. I included her 2 times and hated how I had to micromanage her from the moment a decent monster just looks at her in a funny way. Felt like babysitting. Damn, she isn't even a good mule to carry around my loot. It probably has everything to do with my very shallow play style (one or two pre-battle buffs and send in the tanks). From an RP point of view: (almost) all my party members -charname included- hate the abusive bitch
Right now Jaheira and Minsc are the least useful NPC in my party, but they are not overrated.
God, that gnome is so annoying. I hate his toilet humor. I find it next to impossible to try and maintain any sense of serious game play with this idiot's interjections and back story. Sometimes I just recruit him so he can duel beholders by himself.
I don't know about NPCs, but the most overrated character by far is Charname. It's the only member of your party who ends the entire game when s/he dies.
"I don't know about NPCs, but the most overrated character by far is Charname. It's the only member of your party who ends the entire game when s/he dies. "
Well, I don't know about you, but that seems to be the opposite of overrated. The game actually ends...
Edwin. Because I find Imoen's thief levels to be more useful than extra spells. The same goes to a lesser extent for Nalia, and I find Jan to just be more useful overall as he gains extra thief levels.
Edwin by far. Despite having more spells his spells are no more powerful than any other mage's. Wild Mages have more powerful, albeit unreliable spells, sorcerers are superior in versatility and mage/thieves, cleric/mages and fighter/mages bring more to the table than he does.
As far as overrated goes: Viconia. I included her 2 times and hated how I had to micromanage her from the moment a decent monster just looks at her in a funny way. Felt like babysitting. Damn, she isn't even a good mule to carry around my loot. It probably has everything to do with my very shallow play style (one or two pre-battle buffs and send in the tanks). From an RP point of view: (almost) all my party members -charname included- hate the abusive bitch
Right now Jaheira and Minsc are the least useful NPC in my party, but they are not overrated.
You're right it must be your playstyle, because Viccy is a powerhouse. She is good to great in every situation. In a late game melee with a buff or 2 she can go toe to toe with any fighter. Buffing/Debuffing, quick full heals and a great selection of damage/disabling spells. A innate high wisdom, a 19 in Dex and 65% base magic resistance. Not to mention her winning personality. She is by far the most powerful Divine spellcaster in both BG and BG2 bar none.
On another note, I have no idea which character is the most overrated. Most NPCs are horribly underrated, Haer'Dalis is the best tank in the game and can deal huge damage, but for the longest time I thought he was trash. Valygar is a extremely useful scout/assassin if used right, Aerie may be really annoying, but her huge choice of spells more than makes up for it.
I guess it would have to be one of the fighters that is overrated, because I think a lot of new players overvalue fighters. At least I know, I used to overvalued the meatheads when I was starting out. So maybe Korgan, Mazzy or Minsc.
As far as overrated goes: Viconia. I included her 2 times and hated how I had to micromanage her from the moment a decent monster just looks at her in a funny way. Felt like babysitting. Damn, she isn't even a good mule to carry around my loot. It probably has everything to do with my very shallow play style (one or two pre-battle buffs and send in the tanks). From an RP point of view: (almost) all my party members -charname included- hate the abusive bitch
Right now Jaheira and Minsc are the least useful NPC in my party, but they are not overrated.
You're right it must be your playstyle, because Viccy is a powerhouse. She is good to great in every situation. In a late game melee with a buff or 2 she can go toe to toe with any fighter. Buffing/Debuffing, quick full heals and a great selection of damage/disabling spells. A innate high wisdom, a 19 in Dex and 65% base magic resistance. Not to mention her winning personality. She is by far the most powerful Divine spellcaster in both BG and BG2 bar none.
On another note, I have no idea which character is the most overrated. Most NPCs are horribly underrated, Haer'Dalis is the best tank in the game and can deal huge damage, but for the longest time I thought he was trash. Valygar is a extremely useful scout/assassin if used right, Aerie may be really annoying, but her huge choice of spells more than makes up for it.
I guess it would have to be one of the fighters that is overrated, because I think a lot of new players overvalue fighters. At least I know, I used to overvalued the meatheads when I was starting out. So maybe Korgan, Mazzy or Minsc.
Let's compare Anomen and Viconia.
Anomen: Strength: 18/52 (increase to 19+ with items) Dex: 10 (increase to 18 with gloves) Con: 16 (can be increased to 18 with belt for fighter hp gain) Wis: 16
Viconia: Strength: 10 (increase to 19+ with items) Dex: 19 Con: 8 (increase to 18 with belt) Wis: 18
So pretty similar stat wise. I prefer Anomen because I hate having to activate items. It's a chore to me. But if you are willing to then Viconia has the slight edge with +1 dex and +2 wis. If you aren't willing to, or keep forgetting to, then I like Anomen better. Right off the bat you can do one quest to give him 18 dex and he has stats that are just about perfect.
Then for abilities. Viconia has her 65% magic resistance. Which is great! She can tank mages quite well.
I, however, still prefer Anomen. He has 7 levels of fighter. Which means *alot* more HP. He can go all the way up to grand mastery in his chosen weapon, and he gets more attacks per round. And if you are willing to cast it when needed, he can give himself quite decent magic resistance as he is a cleric. And as 7 levels of fighter don't take up much xp, he'll end the game being so close in levels to Viconia that it won't make any real difference.
Anomen: Better if you forget to activate the belt of constitution and if you want a cleric who can fight in the front lines (better constitution, has more attacks per round, does more damage)
Viconia: Better if you remember to activate the belt of constitution, and if you want a cleric who is more likely to sit out of combat casting spells or if you have trouble fighting mages.
In sum...I just don't see Viconia as being heads and shoulders the best cleric in the game.
----------
And in BG1, I'd argue that Yeslick is the better choice. Throw him the gauntlets of dexterity and he has amazing stats...stats that Viconia can't reach because BG1 doesn't have many stat altering items.
Also, as it's BG1, there aren't many spell casters who will give you trouble, so her magic resistance is less important. Plus Yeslick comes with a built in dispel magic which is always useful. And finally, because the levels are so low, his fighter levels will really come into play for making him more deadly than Viconia.
Edwin, im soo damn tired of hearing "he is even more powerful than charname" No bitch, my wild mage and DD will put his ass so far in the ground, that princes of hell won't even be able to see or reach him!
That 12% that voted for Viconia... we're going to have a problem here >.>
Honestly, I wonder if the lack of divination spells might be a bigger handicap than people say. You can't use Breach effectively if you can't True Sight your way through their Shadow Door, after all.
The problem is that True Seeing is accessible via the Book of Daily Spell. Many other characters will be able to fill in that role, as well. Any divine spellcaster has access to cheaper Farsight and True Seeing spells, and Jan and Keldorn excel at revealing invisible critters. Other spell schools are a bit harder to emulate through other classes.
It was a bit of a tossup between Minsc and Edwin, but Minsc won out eventually. I also have a beef with Viconia, but I've never actually played a game with her so I can't say how the theory pans out.
I don't think I need to spell out the reasons for Minsc; others did that just fine. Low stats and all that, as well as dying to two Mindflayer critical. (...) And as for Edwin while not having Divination isn't the most breaking things in the world, even in SCS completely draining one's spell book isn't really a thing that happens too often. I think. I might just be doing SCS wrong. >.> So while the extra spell is probably useful, it's no gamebreaker until level 8-9 spells come online.
For Viconia, the main reason I dislike the idea of her as a tank is that she doesn't really do anything in retaliation. It's kind of abusing the A.I. to make them fight the fully-armored drow that's not doing any damage while ignoring the heavy backbone pouring out damage, unless SCS in which case they should probably just ignore her anyways. Maximum of 3 APR, and that's with taking proficiency hits due to dual-wielding, inability to drink Warrior potions like Anomen, including the Giant Strength and Invulnerability potions... Tanking mages is a possibility, I guess, but Aerie does it better with Polymorph - Mustard Jelly if you're looking to stay with some sort of cleric for tanking mages.
I like the character (voice/personality) and I like the kit, but to me, bards(blade) get too few spell slots to make them viable for my playstyle. I dislike resting often and without his buffs, he suck. Sure the spins are a good and easily accessable buff but with only a few casts of the needed defensive spells he, in the way I play, tend to have to battle partly unbuffed. I still use him occasionally though and I think he's a good addition to many different party setups, but it's too tedious to have to rest to regain spells all the time.
I don't base this on HLA's since I tend to value my NPC's on performance in SoA (and BG1 ofc), since I spend so much more time on that part, if I even bother with ToB before my restartitis kicks in.
If I would talk about BG1 only I would say Edwin. He's great, but not so great in BG1 since arcane is secondary to raw killing power by melee/ranged and the extra spell slots for low-level spells doesn't add a significant change to the overall party effiency. I often use him but not because he's OP, I think he's good and does the job well, but not so much better than Xzar.
I feel compelled to clarify that although I see Minsc as significantly weaker than Edwin, I didn't choose him because I don't see much evidence of people overvaluing him as a combatant.
You're right it must be your playstyle, because Viccy is a powerhouse. She is good to great in every situation. In a late game melee with a buff or 2 she can go toe to toe with any fighter. Buffing/Debuffing, quick full heals and a great selection of damage/disabling spells. A innate high wisdom, a 19 in Dex and 65% base magic resistance. Not to mention her winning personality. She is by far the most powerful Divine spellcaster in both BG and BG2 bar none.
Her winning what? She is evil and a Drow dude! Only joking here Can't argue about taste.
While I like Minsc, I have to say that he's not as good as either of the two other characters who fill the 2-handed fighter role (now increased to 3 with Dorn). I usually keep him for as long as it takes to find Keldorn or Dorn, then switch him for one of those.
While I like Minsc, I have to say that he's not as good as either of the two other characters who fill the 2-handed fighter role (now increased to 3 with Dorn). I usually keep him for as long as it takes to find Keldorn or Dorn, then switch him for one of those.
I know the reason. A certain ferret doesn't like hamsters.
Sure her wisdom and dex are high, not to mention MR, but still she's inferior in any other department to Ano and requires tedious micromanagement.
But then again, I find most of the divine spells (level 1-4 at least) useless in BG2, and always end up playing my clerics as tanks+occasional buffers. Maybe with some SCS-pumped difficulty she's more useful.
this is how i rate their overratedness on a scale of 1-5
1 = underrated; 2 = not overrated; 3 = just a little overrated; 4 = overrated; 5 = very overrated
Edwin - 2 (spells rule) Keldorn - 2 (hard to overestimate this guy...people often try to make up alternatives for keldorn because he lacks character or whatever, but because of his handy kit and strong item options, he's hard to replace with something stronger or more convenient) Imoen - 2 (she could maybe be a bit underrated, but most people eventually see her as a boss npc that she is) Haer'Dalis - 4 (a few people think he's amazing but he's just okay in my book) Minsc - 4 (not a weak npc, but doesn't bring anything special to the table which makes him pretty redundant down the road) Viconia - 5 (quite good, but she's still super overrated) Baeloth - 2 Dorn - 2 Jan - 2
Comments
For BG2ee, however, Rasaad is an excellent fighter. I recently completed a run with Rasaad and Dorn as my front-liners (yes, I know that's a pretty odd combination, but it was all a bit experimental). Dorn was far out-classing Rasaad at first, but they were about equally effective in the second half of SoA, and then in ToB, Rasaad was a significantly better fighter than Dorn - and that's comparing against a Dorn who still had all his powers, not a "fallen" Dorn who gave up his powers for freedom. Rasaad is really, really good once he gets enough levels under his belt!
Just one of the million reasons why Baldur's Gate games are so great.
Right now Jaheira and Minsc are the least useful NPC in my party, but they are not overrated.
"Oh, did he die horribly?"
"Thank you, Firkraag!"
Now I can get back into this game.
"Pardon me, turnip reflex."
What an idiot!
"I don't know about NPCs, but the most overrated character by far is Charname. It's the only member of your party who ends the entire game when s/he dies. "
Well, I don't know about you, but that seems to be the opposite of overrated. The game actually ends...
On another note, I have no idea which character is the most overrated. Most NPCs are horribly underrated, Haer'Dalis is the best tank in the game and can deal huge damage, but for the longest time I thought he was trash. Valygar is a extremely useful scout/assassin if used right, Aerie may be really annoying, but her huge choice of spells more than makes up for it.
I guess it would have to be one of the fighters that is overrated, because I think a lot of new players overvalue fighters. At least I know, I used to overvalued the meatheads when I was starting out. So maybe Korgan, Mazzy or Minsc.
Anomen:
Strength: 18/52 (increase to 19+ with items)
Dex: 10 (increase to 18 with gloves)
Con: 16 (can be increased to 18 with belt for fighter hp gain)
Wis: 16
Viconia:
Strength: 10 (increase to 19+ with items)
Dex: 19
Con: 8 (increase to 18 with belt)
Wis: 18
So pretty similar stat wise. I prefer Anomen because I hate having to activate items. It's a chore to me. But if you are willing to then Viconia has the slight edge with +1 dex and +2 wis. If you aren't willing to, or keep forgetting to, then I like Anomen better. Right off the bat you can do one quest to give him 18 dex and he has stats that are just about perfect.
Then for abilities. Viconia has her 65% magic resistance. Which is great! She can tank mages quite well.
I, however, still prefer Anomen. He has 7 levels of fighter. Which means *alot* more HP. He can go all the way up to grand mastery in his chosen weapon, and he gets more attacks per round. And if you are willing to cast it when needed, he can give himself quite decent magic resistance as he is a cleric. And as 7 levels of fighter don't take up much xp, he'll end the game being so close in levels to Viconia that it won't make any real difference.
Anomen: Better if you forget to activate the belt of constitution and if you want a cleric who can fight in the front lines (better constitution, has more attacks per round, does more damage)
Viconia: Better if you remember to activate the belt of constitution, and if you want a cleric who is more likely to sit out of combat casting spells or if you have trouble fighting mages.
In sum...I just don't see Viconia as being heads and shoulders the best cleric in the game.
----------
And in BG1, I'd argue that Yeslick is the better choice. Throw him the gauntlets of dexterity and he has amazing stats...stats that Viconia can't reach because BG1 doesn't have many stat altering items.
Also, as it's BG1, there aren't many spell casters who will give you trouble, so her magic resistance is less important. Plus Yeslick comes with a built in dispel magic which is always useful. And finally, because the levels are so low, his fighter levels will really come into play for making him more deadly than Viconia.
So in BG1, I'd take Yeslick over Viconia any day.
Viconia: overrated (not bad. just overrated)
That 12% that voted for Viconia... we're going to have a problem here >.>
I don't think I need to spell out the reasons for Minsc; others did that just fine. Low stats and all that, as well as dying to two Mindflayer critical. (...) And as for Edwin while not having Divination isn't the most breaking things in the world, even in SCS completely draining one's spell book isn't really a thing that happens too often. I think. I might just be doing SCS wrong. >.> So while the extra spell is probably useful, it's no gamebreaker until level 8-9 spells come online.
For Viconia, the main reason I dislike the idea of her as a tank is that she doesn't really do anything in retaliation. It's kind of abusing the A.I. to make them fight the fully-armored drow that's not doing any damage while ignoring the heavy backbone pouring out damage, unless SCS in which case they should probably just ignore her anyways. Maximum of 3 APR, and that's with taking proficiency hits due to dual-wielding, inability to drink Warrior potions like Anomen, including the Giant Strength and Invulnerability potions... Tanking mages is a possibility, I guess, but Aerie does it better with Polymorph - Mustard Jelly if you're looking to stay with some sort of cleric for tanking mages.
Based on both BG1 and 2: Haer'dalis IMHO.
I like the character (voice/personality) and I like the kit, but to me, bards(blade) get too few spell slots to make them viable for my playstyle. I dislike resting often and without his buffs, he suck. Sure the spins are a good and easily accessable buff but with only a few casts of the needed defensive spells he, in the way I play, tend to have to battle partly unbuffed. I still use him occasionally though and I think he's a good addition to many different party setups, but it's too tedious to have to rest to regain spells all the time.
I don't base this on HLA's since I tend to value my NPC's on performance in SoA (and BG1 ofc), since I spend so much more time on that part, if I even bother with ToB before my restartitis kicks in.
If I would talk about BG1 only I would say Edwin. He's great, but not so great in BG1 since arcane is secondary to raw killing power by melee/ranged and the extra spell slots for low-level spells doesn't add a significant change to the overall party effiency. I often use him but not because he's OP, I think he's good and does the job well, but not so much better than Xzar.
Or maybe he's not overrated, just simply the most powerful hands down ^_^
Sure her wisdom and dex are high, not to mention MR, but still she's inferior in any other department to Ano and requires tedious micromanagement.
But then again, I find most of the divine spells (level 1-4 at least) useless in BG2, and always end up playing my clerics as tanks+occasional buffers. Maybe with some SCS-pumped difficulty she's more useful.
1 = underrated; 2 = not overrated; 3 = just a little overrated; 4 = overrated; 5 = very overrated
Edwin - 2 (spells rule)
Keldorn - 2 (hard to overestimate this guy...people often try to make up alternatives for keldorn because he lacks character or whatever, but because of his handy kit and strong item options, he's hard to replace with something stronger or more convenient)
Imoen - 2 (she could maybe be a bit underrated, but most people eventually see her as a boss npc that she is)
Haer'Dalis - 4 (a few people think he's amazing but he's just okay in my book)
Minsc - 4 (not a weak npc, but doesn't bring anything special to the table which makes him pretty redundant down the road)
Viconia - 5 (quite good, but she's still super overrated)
Baeloth - 2
Dorn - 2
Jan - 2