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The Adventurer's Lounge: Guidance and Support for No Reload Challengers- Newbie or Veteran

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  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,161
    edited September 2017
    Alesia_BH said:

    GrimJim said:

    You would get the same results if you tested Imoen vs. Jan Jansen.

    Confirmed: Pitting Imoen against Jan, Imoen rolls between 3 and 22, Jan rolls between -1 and 18.

    Best,

    A.
    @Alesia_BH exactly which version of Imoen were you using for this test? As I mentioned before, there is one version of Imoen that has the MAGESCHOOL_GENERALIST kit, that being the one from Chateau Irenicus, the one with Imoen's Belt. That would explain the results of your above test.
    GrimJim said:

    I think the cause and effect here is backwards. The reason I started investigating this in the first place was that my gnome illusionist/thief was failing saves that he shouldn't have and I/Ts are properly given the illusionist kit. The issue here is that Imoen and Anomen have NONE as their kit. You would get the same results if you tested Imoen vs. Jan Jansen.

    @GrimJim I am not seeing this as the case. I tested with Jan and Imoen. I double checked to make sure Jan had the illusionist kit and Imoen had none kit. In this case Jan saves against Celestial Fury AND Blindness as I would expect him to. He rolls 1-20 against CF and 3-22 against Blindness. Not only that, but you are being extremely vague in your refutation of my results. You say that your I/T was failing saves they should have made, but you do not give any details on what and who they were trying to save against. Without proper explanation or evidence or details of your own experimentation I have a great deal of trouble accepting this, especially when it is contrary to the results I am getting from my experimentation. Indeed, I really have no clue what you are talking about... What exactly do you think is the problem with the NONE kit?

  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 463
    edited September 2017
    Tresset said:



    @Alesia_BH exactly which version of Imoen were you using for this test? As I mentioned before, there is one version of Imoen that has the MAGESCHOOL_GENERALIST kit, that being the one from Chateau Irenicus, the one with Imoen's Belt. That would explain the results of your above test.

    I used the ToB Imoen, summoned via the Fate Spirit- the same Imoen used in the test with Nalia.

    The Imoen/Nalia results were the same as the Imoen/Jan results, as per Grim Jim's hypothesis.


    Best,

    A.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,161
    Odd... hmm... Perhaps this is due to our different versions... I believe based on some of your screenshots in the no-reload thread that you are using v1.3 while I have the latest version, 2.x (correct me if I am wrong).

    I will try summoning Jan and Imoen with the fate spirits and see what happens.

  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 463
    edited September 2017
    Do try. The Imoen, Nalia, and Jan were all summoned through the Fate Spirit.

    Their save v spells were all set to 1. Nalia and Jan both failed against Imoen's darts of stunning. Imoen rolled 22's against Nalia and Jan's darts of stunning.

    If we posit that none provides a comparative advantage, non-mage kits and wild mages behave like none, and player created unkitted characters are granted the generalist kit, not none, we could, I believe, explain all the results we've observed so far, including the previously perplexing findings from monsters.

    Best,

    A.

    (I'll note that thus far we have observed no differences between v1.3 and v2.X with respect to this behavior. I've been able to replicate everything others have observed in V2.X, and others have been able to replicate what I've observed in v1.3. Of course, further study may uncover difference.)

    Post edited by Alesia_BH on
    semiticgoddess
  • BanananautBanananaut Member Posts: 25
    Tresset said:

    You say that your I/T was failing saves they should have made, but you do not give any details on what and who they were trying to save against.

    I initially tested against umber hulks (udumber.cre) and their confusion gaze. My I/T's save vs. spells was 1 and confusion gaze has no penalty, yet he was occasionally failing the save. In my install, umber hulks have NONE as their kit and confusion gaze has no school. In any case, the MAGESCHOOL_GENERALIST kit was not involved at all.
    Tresse said:

    What exactly do you think is the problem with the NONE kit?

    I think the issue is that certain kits, including NONE, are considered to be specialists in school-less spells and effects, including on-hit weapon effects.
    Tresset said:

    I double checked to make sure Jan had the illusionist kit and Imoen had none kit. In this case Jan saves against Celestial Fury AND Blindness as I would expect him to. He rolls 1-20 against CF and 3-22 against Blindness.

    I don't have a good explanation for this, but everything else I've seen in discussions about this topic is consistent with my hypothesis, so I suspect that it's some subtle difference in installs that we're not picking up on.

    TressetAlesia_BHPokota
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 463
    We should seek replication of Tresset's Jan/Imoen results.

    We should try to ascertain whether there is, in fact, a difference between Tesset's install and others. If there is, we should try to delimit the scope of those differences.

    Best,

    A.

  • BanananautBanananaut Member Posts: 25
    edited September 2017
    My tests were done on jan12.cre and imoen10.cre on a clean install, using the console to spawn them in and Ctrl+Q to add them to the party. I confirmed in NearInfinity that that version of Jan is an illusionist and that version of Imoen is a NONE. My results were the same as Alesia's where Jan needed a -1 to avoid being stunned by Imoen's Celestial Fury.

    Alesia_BH
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 463
    edited September 2017
    Thank you, too, Grond0!

    The question now is whether Tresset can replicate our findings, upon further study.

    If so, it seems to me that we have an internally consistent, generalizable working theory.


    Best,

    A.

    Grond0
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,161
    GrimJim said:

    Tresset said:

    I double checked to make sure Jan had the illusionist kit and Imoen had none kit. In this case Jan saves against Celestial Fury AND Blindness as I would expect him to. He rolls 1-20 against CF and 3-22 against Blindness.

    I don't have a good explanation for this, but everything else I've seen in discussions about this topic is consistent with my hypothesis, so I suspect that it's some subtle difference in installs that we're not picking up on.
    Well, I found one... I re-ran this test and I appear to had been in error earlier. He is rolling a -1 to 18 in reality. Sorry about the misleading info.

    There is some weirdness going on here, for sure, and it is really frustrating me. I am beginning to wonder if specialists receive a penalty to their saves against any school other than their specialty. My testing seems to indicate something to this effect, but I am getting too tired to think anymore.

    By the way @GrimJim, I appreciate the details. It has helped shed some light on this.

    I will get to the bottom of this... Somehow...

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,931
    Tresset said:

    There is some weirdness going on here, for sure, and it is really frustrating me. I am beginning to wonder if specialists receive a penalty to their saves against any school other than their specialty.

    I don't think so. Using Imoen to throw chromatic orbs against Jan there should be no specialist effects applying to either, so with the +6 bonus spell saves should vary from 7-26 - and they do.

  • BanananautBanananaut Member Posts: 25
    Tresset said:

    By the way @GrimJim, I appreciate the details. It has helped shed some light on this.

    No problem. The exact details of this bug have been tricky to nail down. My first attempt at explaining it was way off.

  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 6,931
    Alesia_BH said:

    1) None v Generalist, advantage None

    I read the first line there and thought "that can't be right", before realising you'd got a capital letter on "None" :p.

    AndreaColomboAlesia_BH
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,365
    In theory, it should be possible to write a WeiDU routine that patches all CREs using "None" to use "Generalist" instead--as I reckon that would solve the issue for NPCs and monsters alike?

    Granted, an engine fix would be ideal but the WeiDU fix would help kill the wait ;)

    Grond0
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited September 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Alesia_BH
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 463
    chimaera said:

    I'm not sure you can even install the 'Tactics' Improved Irenicus with SCS v. 30 anymore. The readme states

    "Deprecated "Improved Irenicus in Hell" as of v. 22

    Makes sense. I was looking for it when I reinstalled, and I didn't find it.
    chimaera said:

    I think in v.30 it's just vanilla Irenicus, beefed up with SCS scripts. This is what I meant with the "SCS version", I'm sorry for the confusion.

    Noted. I like that version, actually, although, again, I do think it would play better with:

    1) The SoA cap in place
    2) Invisibility detection and a movement rate bonus for Jonicus

    Best,

    A.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Alesia_BH
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 463
    edited September 2017

    In theory, it should be possible to write a WeiDU routine that patches all CREs using "None" to use "Generalist" instead--as I reckon that would solve the issue for NPCs and monsters alike?

    The problem with that solution is that the other members of the "Schoolless" category, notably kitted warriors and such, would retain their comparative advantage. In fact, it would be extended, since they'd face more generalists :/

    I'd rather see ToBex and EE deal with this on an engine level.

    Best,

    A.

    Post edited by Alesia_BH on
    AndreaColomboGrond0
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,365
    Agreed; this takes an engine fix (although I'm not sure Asc64 is still around to add fixes to ToBEx?). Hopefully a fix will be implemented in an upcoming patch for the EEs. Looks like a temporary WeiDU fix would be more awkward than I had thought.

    Alesia_BHGrond0
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 791
    So, if I'm understanding the null case bug discussion correctly, in the case of applying save-or-else weapons, an unkitted Bard would do better with bolts of polymorphing than a Jester of the same level would?

  • Wise_GrimwaldWise_Grimwald Member Posts: 3,110

    What is Jimfix?

    Others have said what it actually is. The actual term came from a UK TV program called Jim'll Fix it!
    The host was a man called Jimmy Saville who fixed problems for people who needed help.
    Unfortunately he mis-used his position to satisfy his own desires with kids. :'(
    It only became public after his death due to cover-ups. :'(

    StummvonBordwehrJuliusBorisovsemiticgoddess
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited September 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Grond0Wise_Grimwald
  • Serg_BlackStriderSerg_BlackStrider Member Posts: 176

    @Serg_BlackStrider So a couple of your save vs speels are very high still (for Mazzy and Viconia), does this get problematic? I feel like that would make me nervous in a no reload setting.

    What do you do for enemies that require specific protections like vampires, beholders or mindflayers? NPP lasts 4 rounds -- do you just keep unprotected party members far away?

    Also, you're far braver than I am, I'd be terrified to do the watcher's keep maze -- the dead magic zone to Tanaari fight has caused me more headaches than most other fights in the game.

    As a fighter Mazzy could boost her saves significantly with Potions of Invulnerability if needed (those aren't too rare) and Viconia has 80 Magic Resistance unbuffed so I see no problem there.

    Aye, in general, I prefer to fight at range and only have one or two well protected characters at close range and those aren't a pure fighters. Vs Vampires we have Helmets of Charm Protection, Amulet of Power and Improved Mace of Disruption. Beholders are more tricky. I don't use the Shield of Balduran (with SCS it's not much sense with it anyway) so mostly I sent one mage character polymorphed into Mustard Jelly and blast them with wands. Mindflayers need some kind of protection from their stun attacks but overall keeping at range or having good enough AC and a stock of Potions of Genius works fine. In my setup I use a Polytweak mod and with it their attacks don't drain Int anymore (draining 25% of health with each successful hit instead) but that's another story.

    ArctodusWise_GrimwaldJuliusBorisovAerakar
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 21,712
  • Alesia_BHAlesia_BH Member Posts: 463

    The actual term came from a UK TV program called Jim'll Fix it!

    I feel I should clarify that the mod name has nothing to do with Jimmy Saville, the UK's cross between Mr. Rogers and Jared Fogle.

    The mod name, JimFix, is derived from the name of the author, GrimJim.

    Best,

    A.

    Serg_BlackStridersemiticgoddess
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