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[MOD] -Scales of Balance- a post-hac tweak mod

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Comments

  • AquadrizztAquadrizzt Member Posts: 857
    @kjeron , you probably know this but you can use the combination (0x103/0x104) lines in splprot.2da with a -1 parameter IF both of the targeting modes use the same parameter.

    I use it for things like (if Wisdom or Charisma > X) or (if Dex > X and Str < X). Not the most useful, but a fun trick that trivializes some things.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,881
    @subtledoctor Please don't. I think dual wield is in a nice place. Its not really the style's fault that another mod strengthens it.

    Contemplative_HamsterDjinn
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086
    edited April 19
    EDIT - see below.

    Post edited by subtledoctor on
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086
    edited April 19
    ThacoBell said:

    @subtledoctor Please don't. I think dual wield is in a nice place. Its not really the style's fault that another mod strengthens it.

    I'm looking into refining it a bit - at least, there should be a bit of a thac0 penalty, even with daggers. Here's what I'm testing (successfully, I think) right now:
    - Wielding two daggers: 1-point thac0 penalty, 2-point melee AC bonus.
    - Dagger + anything: 2-point thac0 penalty, 2-point AC bonus.
    - Medium + medium: 2-point thac0 penalty, 1-point AC bonus.
    - Large + medium: 3-point thac0 penalty, no AC bonus.
    - Large + large: 4-point thac0 penalty, no AC bonus.
    With one star, the off-hand attack will be at a 5-point penalty (3E-style) instead of a 20-point penalty. So if you have a decent thac0 (warrior, specialized, high STR, etc.) you will get an occasional off-hand strike. With two stars, your off-hand attack will be the same as your main-hand thac0, as outlined above.

    It's good to consider examples. So let's say you are a 5th level warrior, base thac0 16, specialized in long swords and daggers and proficient in dual-wielding, with 18/70 STR.
    - With a main-hand long sword and an off-hand dagger, your main-hand thac0 would be 15 with 1.5 APR, and your off-hand thac0 would be 20 with 1 APR. And you would have a 2-point melee AC bonus. If you invested in SWS instead, your thac0 with the long sword would be 12, with 1.5 APR and no AC bonus.
    - When you get to 6th level you can specialize in dual-wielding, so your thac0 would equalize at 14, with an overall 2.5 APR and a 2-point AC bonus. If you specialize in SWS instead, your thac0 will be 11, with 2 APR and no AC bonus.

    So with dual-wielding you trade accuracy for a little bit more attacks, and a little bit better defense. Notably, scimitars are large weapons, so dual-wielding with Belm will introduce some thac0 penalties and remove the defensive bonuses from the style. (Though I guess off-hand Belm plus a main-hand dagger could be interesting.)

    I'm pretty happy with this. Just need to do some final testing to make sure it's working. I still, STILL can't get around the thing where it needs one second for the thac0 and AC numbers to normalize. One second isn't the end of the world, but it's annoying. BUT it doesn't have the wild 4-point swing anymore, so it's not as jarring. Generally your existing thac0/AC will remain for a second when you equip a second weapon, or switch from dagger/dagger to dagger/long sword, etc., and then adjust by one or two points to where it should be.

  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,881
    Yeah, but that nerfs a thief trying to dual wield. Real life dual wield styles aren't about more attacks either. Its a parry style.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086
    Should also mention, I've added a very small component that makes all potions usable by everyone. Because honestly the idea that you can't drink something because of your chosen profession is utterly bonkers. What, are Strength potions so viscous that only the powerful throat of a warrior can choke them down, or something???

    I'm also thinking about adding another more extreme version of the Saving Throw Overhaul that more explicitly connects saves to abilities. Like, it would rename

    - "save vs. spells" => "save vs. spells/intelligence."
    - "save vs. death/poison" => "save vs. death/constitution."
    - "save vs. breath weapon" => "save vs. breath/dexterity."
    - "save vs. petrify/polymorph" => "save vs. polymorph/wisdom."
    - "save vs. wands" => "????" (saves vs. wands are so stupid! just eliminate them)

    So that leaves nothing connected to Strength (which is fine because STR is already so important that you shouldn't care) and nothing connected to Charisma (which is fine, nothing really fits anyway). Arguably you could connect petrify/polymorph saves to STR; with this component they include saving against effects like Slow and Hold - anything that effects your physical form or movement. Instead of overcoming them with wisdom/willpower, you could overcome these effects with sheer brute strength.

    Alternatively we could connect two stats to each saving throw:

    - Spells/Enchantments => INT and CHA
    - Death/Poison => CON and WIS
    - Breath Weapon => DEX and CHA
    - Petrify/Polymorph => STR and WIS
    - Wands => go away stupid wands

    All of these ideas would involve adding new saving throw adjustments for stats. The basic idea is ALL saving throw tables would become uniform. Instead of clerics having good saves against Death and wizards having good saves against Spells, it will be your stats, not your class, that determines which ones are better. So you could have a very healthy and wise wizard, and he would have excellent saves against poison.

    Importantly, this would step all over the toes of the Stat Bonus Overhaul. it necessarily involves combining elements of the Saving Throw component and the Stat component. So it needs some thought and consideration. Which makes me think I should just upload the dual-wielding and potion changes now, and work on this some more.

    ThacoBellDjinn
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086
    ThacoBell said:

    Yeah, but that nerfs a thief trying to dual wield. Real life dual wield styles aren't about more attacks either. Its a parry style.

    Right, and a thief dual-wielding daggers gets to trade a single point of thac0 for 2 points of AC. That seems totally reasonable for a parrying style, to me.

    ThacoBellDjinn
  • BloodstoneBloodstone Member Posts: 71
    Quick question here, and I may be in the wrong spot. I think npc-ee used to be part of Scales of Balance. In that vain I'm trying to see if I switch Imoen over to a Thief/Mage is there an option to change one of her proficencies over to short bow instead of sling? Wasn't sure if that was do able or if the Mage Class restriction just totally prevents that.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086
    Aaaand, here's the update.

    - New component #109: Universal Potions

    - Slightly refined dual-wielding in the Revised Fighting Styles component.

    ALIENDjinnStummvonBordwehr
  • ALIENALIEN Member Posts: 513
    "- New component #109: Universal Potions"
    Wonderful tweak! Worth donating to TA :smile:

    Djinn
  • Luke93Luke93 Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 823
    edited April 21
    Honestly I don't see how you're supposed to parry incoming attacks with 2 daggers... I mean, they're very small weapons......

    Post edited by Luke93 on
  • DjinnDjinn Member Posts: 51
    edited April 22
    Dual wielding with daggers and using them to parry is actually very interesting. You do a blocking counter attack at the opponent's weapon instead of attacking the opponent's body - much like you would when blocking with your arms in unarmed combat, but also a lot more difficult. This much easier to do with a small weapon such a dagger than a sword, and probably impossible with large or heavy weapons.
    At least, I've never seen it done in real life martial arts with large weapons.

    Post edited by Djinn on
    subtledoctorThacoBellLuke93
  • Luke93Luke93 Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 823
    edited April 25


    It lets thieves of 7th level or higher make a saving throw vs. Breath Weapon in order to completely dodge the effects of certain spells like Fireball, Skull Trap, etc.

    A couple of comments:
    1. you may wanna add opcode 139 to D5EVADE.SPL in order to display Gained Passive Ability: Evasion or something like that.
    2. You may wanna add TRAP_FIREBALL, TRAP_LIGHTNING_BOLT, MEPHIT_LIGHTNING_BOLT and the like to the list of evadable spells....
    3. [PATCH_IF (level_1 > 7) OR (level_2 > 7) BEGIN] -> You may wanna replace > ("greater") with >= ("greater or equal").
    4. In IWDEE there is no opcode 72 (Change AI type). What is it for? Moreover, I think it's currently useless since it has a duration of 0.....

    Post edited by Luke93 on
  • southfla79southfla79 Member Posts: 68
    Heavy install, so I'll start off with that. Was trying to install YARAS and kept running into an error with the Magus kit. See below. Weido Log in second spoiler. Only way to "fix" the issue was to remove the QDMagus.2da file from the override folder. Weidu attached

    Error from Debug file:
    A!BCHAN1 = elven chain
    ERROR: cannot convert magus_code or %magus_code% to an integer
    ERROR: [A!BCHAN1.ITM] -> [override/A!BCHAN1.ITM] Patching Failed (COPY) (Not_found)
    Stopping installation because of error.
    Stopping installation because of error.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086

    Was trying to install YARAS and kept running into an error with the Magus kit.

    ...

    "ERROR: cannot convert magus_code or %magus_code% to an integer
    ERROR: [A!BCHAN1.ITM] -> [override/A!BCHAN1.ITM] Patching Failed (COPY) (Not_found)
    Stopping installation because of error.
    Stopping installation because of error."

    Should be fixed now, thanks for reporting.

    Also, I will note that the mod has been updated to v5.12.2. There have been a lot of very quick changes in a very short period of time, and I didn't post about each of them. Here's a brief synopsis:

    - I added a component enabling IWD-style Spell Evasion for thieves
    - Evasion was badly broken in a way that could screw up games (though fixable via EEKeeper)
    - I patched it in a small way to fix that
    - Turns out it was broken in a much bigger way
    - I fixed the bigger problem with a much more conservative version of Evasion
    - That version was too conservative; now it didn't work at all
    - I finally made Evasion work exactly as intended and as it does in IWDEE
    - Then I reverse-engineered the way Evasion works, and updated it to use this new method.

    That's where we are now. The new Evasion method is very similar to IWDEE in practice, but the underlying code is much more flexible, getting around a bunch of hard-coded weirdness to potentially allow non-thieves to have Evasion, or allow people to get it at different levels, or from different sources, etc. (E.g. some quest mod could use my implementation to allow a priest to get Evasion as a quest reward, or something like that.) I have several other mods that will be implementing variant versions of Evasion in this way. :)

    So hopefully that's the end of my Evasion saga. Enjoy! And let me know if there are any bugs I didn't catch.

    StummvonBordwehrALIENContemplative_Hamster
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,881
    Should the evasion component be installed alongside Might and GUile's? Or are they separate and only one should be taken?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086
    ThacoBell said:

    Should the evasion component be installed alongside Might and GUile's? Or are they separate and only one should be taken?

    They are redundant. If the MnG feat system is already installed, the SoB Evasion component won't even be available.

    ThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 5,881

    ThacoBell said:

    Should the evasion component be installed alongside Might and GUile's? Or are they separate and only one should be taken?

    They are redundant. If the MnG feat system is already installed, the SoB Evasion component won't even be available.
    Thanks!

  • southfla79southfla79 Member Posts: 68
    @subtledoctor I do my installs through BWS. Are the new features separate components? If so, can I pause after scales is finished and install the new stuff?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086

    @subtledoctor I do my installs through BWS. Are the new features separate components? If so, can I pause after scales is finished and install the new stuff?

    Probably best to pause it after SoB and add it then. The changes probably should be made before SCS does its thing.

  • southfla79southfla79 Member Posts: 68
  • BloodstoneBloodstone Member Posts: 71
    Probably best to pause it after SoB and add it then. The changes probably should be made before SCS does its thing.

    Won't BCS pick up the new version? Or is it now necessary to pause BWS whenever I include SoB in an install?

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086

    Probably best to pause it after SoB and add it then. The changes probably should be made before SCS does its thing.

    Won't BCS pick up the new version? Or is it now necessary to pause BWS whenever I include SoB in an install?
    Think about the Evasion component like an entirely new mod; this new mod has not yet been picked up by BWS. So you need to install it manually. But BWS handles the rest of SoB just fine.

    Bloodstone
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 253
    So the long wait is finally over, so it seems to fail to me to ask the inevitable question: How is SoB and associated mods (that is M&G, T&B and F&P) gonna handle IWD 2.5 that is the now released non-beta patch ?

  • HubalHubal Member Posts: 22
    Editing yaras.ini does not work at all for me. ( Dex penalties are too severe) Do I need to start a new game for changes to take effect?

  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 253
    Hubal said:

    Editing yaras.ini does not work at all for me. ( Dex penalties are too severe) Do I need to start a new game for changes to take effect?

    Did you reinstall the mod ? I think you need to reinstall at least the yaras component.

    However if i remember it correctly, the dex penalties become much, much more managable once you get your first +1 armor. Until then your high dex characters are better of using leather armors, which actually makes sense.

  • HubalHubal Member Posts: 22
    Arizael said:

    Hubal said:

    Editing yaras.ini does not work at all for me. ( Dex penalties are too severe) Do I need to start a new game for changes to take effect?

    Did you reinstall the mod ? I think you need to reinstall at least the yaras component.

    However if i remember it correctly, the dex penalties become much, much more managable once you get your first +1 armor. Until then your high dex characters are better of using leather armors, which actually makes sense.

    You are right, it makes sense. It also makes regular armor complete garbage. Well I wont be using regular armor anyway so no problem.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 9,086
    Depending on your DEX, it's definitely still worth it to wear regular armor... your AC should improve by at least 1, and you'll get a bit of DR on top of it.

    +1 armors refuce the DEX penalty by 1, and +2 armors reduce it by 2. So it becomes really satisfying when you start finding magical armors.

    StummvonBordwehr
  • HubalHubal Member Posts: 22
    @subtledoctor
    I have a suggestion. Since you made a spear/halberd weapon category, maybe you could do halberds usable
    also by druids?

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