My problem with Viconia isn't that she is evil per-se. But that she is a manipulating, lying, emotional abuser. The fact that she can be redeemed is almost worse. It can easily send the message that if you just stick it out with an abuser, they will eventually change. I learned the hard way that this isn't the case.
Well, I beg to differ because whenever she turns cold or emotionally abusive your dialogue choices are usually something like "just leave me alone" , "I know what you're doing and Im not falling for that" or "you're a cold bit$#" , which means that the writers thought of charname as someone strong enough to either deal with viconia or break up with her at once.
Actually, the only time where charname says something like "please dont live me, I love you" is at the end of the SoA romance when Vicky speaks to you logically and in a very calm tone , explaining that the romance might cause the death of both.
@DJKajuru "which means that the writers thought of charname as someone strong enough to either deal with viconia or break up with her at once. "
That doesn't work though. Because you still HAVE to keep her with you and put up with her to experience her. 2 of those options are very passive, and encourage further abuse. The third option is just repaying abuse with more abuse. Whoever wrote Viconia has clearly NEVER experienced a realationship like the one Viconia entails. Its by far the worst writing in all of the games. Worse than Hexxat.
I think you missed the comment about "soon". She's still Evil for quite some time before she can be turned and if you don't mix with Evil characters, you will never reach that point. Now, however, if it would be hinted very early that she could be turned it could be more easily RPd for a Good character to have her along and turn her asap.
^This, exactly. I've been playing BG since it first came out and I do know you can, through a very convoluted romance process, "turn" her, but that happens very late in BG2. So you have to keep her in your party and play somewhat evil (so that you don't drive her out) all the way through both games. Very frustrating.
@DJKajuru "which means that the writers thought of charname as someone strong enough to either deal with viconia or break up with her at once. "
That doesn't work though. Because you still HAVE to keep her with you and put up with her to experience her. 2 of those options are very passive, and encourage further abuse. The third option is just repaying abuse with more abuse. Whoever wrote Viconia has clearly NEVER experienced a realationship like the one Viconia entails. Its by far the worst writing in all of the games. Worse than Hexxat.
Look, I would never endorse any kind of abusive behavior in real life, but let's face some facts about Viconia as a character: 1- She was raised as a drow priestess of lolth. Her whole society is abusive in multiple accounts, and the fact that she had to escape from it and learn to live on the surface does indeed make her a living contradiction. How can you call bad writing when a character acts accordingly to her background ?
2-the Beauty and the Beast is surely a fairy tale and people shouldnt base their lives on such romantic notions, but that doesnt mean that abusive people cant *ever* change. People go through therapy, self assessments and all sorts of support to learn how to deal with their negative traits. Viconia only decides to change after she realizes that she cares for someone other than herself, and she does go through the whole process of loss (denial, anger, negotiation, depression,acceptance) before making such a decision. Clearly it had to happen during game-time discussing whether it was fast or not is not the topic,but at least they provided a character with visible fears and goals.
3-I'm not evading your argument that it may encourage abuse. Well, considering that such behavior is consistently written for that character , what age group would actually be influenced by it? Baldurs gate has a 13+ age rate, which means that it has mature content and parents should have a look at it first but not really worry about anything too shocking nor inappropriate, so instead of saying "it may encourage abusive behavior" you would actually have present some arguments that prove how teenagers in general can get influenced by viconia's story. For the record, symbolic content isnt the same as real content which means Viconia's romance isnt real, but rather an allegory .
@DJKajuru Kids (this includes teens) are THE most impressionable groups of people. How exactly do you get, "Viconia's romance is an allegory"?
Lets be perfectly honest here. People only like Viconia because she is the most traditionally beautiful character. Nobody would give her a second look if she looked like Montaron.
People only like Viconia because she is the most traditionally beautiful drow.
Let me just take that one step further. On my part, I have no particular opinion on drow as an FR race in general. There are drow characters I like and vice versa, but Viconia is probably my second least favorite NPC in the game after Edwin. Too much shilling on her character to make her seem sympathetic without enough actual sympathetic qualities.
@DJKajuru Kids (this includes teens) are THE most impressionable groups of people. How exactly do you get, "Viconia's romance is an allegory"?
Lets be perfectly honest here. People only like Viconia because she is the most traditionally beautiful character. Nobody would give her a second look if she looked like Montaron.
I only grew to appreciate Viconia after I realized the subtlety with which she is written, how almost everything she does fits her clerical beliefs and portfolio. Even if you think she's a pretty bad person, she makes an excellent Cleric of Shar.
Viconia is like Edwin. She's a good character and a bad person. They play well in the game, but if you met them in real life, you'd hate their guts, and for good reason.
@DJKajuru Kids (this includes teens) are THE most impressionable groups of people. How exactly do you get, "Viconia's romance is an allegory"?
Lets be perfectly honest here. People only like Viconia because she is the most traditionally beautiful character. Nobody would give her a second look if she looked like Montaron.
Look, first of all kids under the age of 13 shouldnt be playing anything that is 13+. Second, age categories exist for a reason, so when we say that something is inappropriate for teens "because they're impressionable" it should come from facts and words from specialists, not common sense.
Also , none of the eligible romantic interests in the game look like montaron . Both Jaheira and Aerie look like nymphs, so it's quite unfair to say that only Viconia is tradionally beautiful. Is it appealing to players? Yes, it is, but sensuality and charisma are two different things, and I do believe that Viconia is not only a sensual but very charismatic character.
@DJKajuru I didn't say only Viconia. I said Viconia was the most traditionally beautiful. In fact, she is based on a real model. I think I've derailed the thread enough though.
@DJKajuru Kids (this includes teens) are THE most impressionable groups of people. How exactly do you get, "Viconia's romance is an allegory"?
Lets be perfectly honest here. People only like Viconia because she is the most traditionally beautiful character. Nobody would give her a second look if she looked like Montaron.
A lot of the bg 1 portraits i just don't like. it's why I use a mod to change the whole saga so they have consistent ones.
I often change their portraits to be how I imagine them to be. For instance, since one of the mods says that Imoen ALWAYS wears pink, I have changed the portraits so that she is wearing pink. I also like the large portrait to show the whole body and the small portrait to show the head. I therefore usually create new portraits for my own characters.
I guess I never even realized it's an unpopular opinion until very recently, but: multiclassing is an universally better pick than dual classing no matter the class combination.
Even dualing from a Fighter at level 13 makes you lose on 8 ThAC0 points, some of best saves in the game and some of the best HLAs in the game. Grandmastery and few kit abilities are nowhere near enough to make up for it.
In fact, if you want to bother with dual classing at all, you should probably run a very small sized party(2-3) and delay the dual for as long as possible, dualing at either 17(best saves) or 21(best base ThAC0)
I guess I never even realized it's an unpopular opinion until very recently, but: multiclassing is an universally better pick than dual classing no matter the class combination.
Even dualing from a Fighter at level 13 makes you lose on 8 ThAC0 points, some of best saves in the game and some of the best HLAs in the game. Grandmastery and few kit abilities are nowhere near enough to make up for it.
In fact, if you want to bother with dual classing at all, you should probably run a very small sized party(2-3) and delay the dual for as long as possible, dualing at either 17(best saves) or 21(best base ThAC0)
The alternative is to dual-class VERY early on, for instance start as a mage and dual to fighter ASAP. Then you have a wand wielding fighter who can buff himself with shield and the like before donning armour. This will protect him from magic missile attacks at the cost of very little experience.
I guess I never even realized it's an unpopular opinion until very recently, but: multiclassing is an universally better pick than dual classing no matter the class combination.
Even dualing from a Fighter at level 13 makes you lose on 8 ThAC0 points, some of best saves in the game and some of the best HLAs in the game. Grandmastery and few kit abilities are nowhere near enough to make up for it.
In fact, if you want to bother with dual classing at all, you should probably run a very small sized party(2-3) and delay the dual for as long as possible, dualing at either 17(best saves) or 21(best base ThAC0)
The alternative is to dual-class VERY early on, for instance start as a mage and dual to fighter ASAP. Then you have a wand wielding fighter who can buff himself with shield and the like before donning armour. This will protect him from magic missile attacks at the cost of very little experience.
I completely agree with this. Low level dual are the most fun. They make for a single class experience with small perks in bonus.
For instance, an illegal but fun dual class is the Thief—>Wizard Slayer. Most do the opposite, to alleviate the WS item restriction, but I believe T—>WS is more fun. You max out Detect Illusion and then you dual into WS. A really early dual. Now, you have a WS that can backstab a bit AND dispel illusions for free at the cost of no exceptional strength (which can be remedied by potions and tomes) and a bit of hp. However, you then have a very good mage killer.
Note that a Thief->Wizard Slayer would not be able to use potions (or I think even tomes) to boost their Strength above 18 unless you dual-classed at thief level 24 or higher. Only weapons like the Mauler, Crom Faeyr, Blackrazor, and Angurvadal would be able to increase their Strength until you got over 3 million XP. Otherwise you would need to rely on Hell or Machine of Lum the Mad bonuses or support from party members.
Note that a Thief->Wizard Slayer would not be able to use potions (or I think even tomes) to boost their Strength above 18 unless you dual-classed at thief level 24 or higher. Only weapons like the Mauler, Crom Faeyr, Blackrazor, and Angurvadal would be able to increase their Strength until you got over 3 million XP. Otherwise you would need to rely on Hell or Machine of Lum the Mad bonuses or support from party members.
Wizard Slayers can use the stat increasing tomes from BG1, so 19 STR should not be a problem. Beyond that you'd rely on Bhaal DUHMs and items.
(Even solo, a Thief ->Wizard Slayer should be able to get the STR tome with DUHM and potions of master thievery, power, perception, mind focusing).
Bards narrative based storytelling ability should make them game-breaking reality warpers
So there's this musical series by Paul Shapera starting with Dolls of New Albion and the later points actually feature characters like this. They can "change the narrative" and thereby change reality slightly. Some people, like one of the antagonists, has done this so much they stopped being themselves and became the character they were playing. It's a concept I absolutely adore.
I'm happy if I have 2 gem bags and 2 scroll cases. I like to roleplay by giving casters their own scroll cases. Usually I have 2 thief-like characters as well.
In IWD there are lots of divine scrolls,so having a scroll case for your priest is a must.
It's pretty rare for me to need more than one container for each item type. Part of it is that I know I don't use consumables a whole lot, so I won't bother looting things that don't sell well and won't be useful later. And if I also have a Bag of Holding, then I can rely on that for the rare situations where my potion case or scroll case overflow.
Comments
Actually, the only time where charname says something like "please dont live me, I love you" is at the end of the SoA romance when Vicky speaks to you logically and in a very calm tone , explaining that the romance might cause the death of both.
That doesn't work though. Because you still HAVE to keep her with you and put up with her to experience her. 2 of those options are very passive, and encourage further abuse. The third option is just repaying abuse with more abuse. Whoever wrote Viconia has clearly NEVER experienced a realationship like the one Viconia entails. Its by far the worst writing in all of the games. Worse than Hexxat.
1- She was raised as a drow priestess of lolth. Her whole society is abusive in multiple accounts, and the fact that she had to escape from it and learn to live on the surface does indeed make her a living contradiction. How can you call bad writing when a character acts accordingly to her background ?
2-the Beauty and the Beast is surely a fairy tale and people shouldnt base their lives on such romantic notions, but that doesnt mean that abusive people cant *ever* change. People go through therapy, self assessments and all sorts of support to learn how to deal with their negative traits. Viconia only decides to change after she realizes that she cares for someone other than herself, and she does go through the whole process of loss (denial, anger, negotiation, depression,acceptance) before making such a decision. Clearly it had to happen during game-time discussing whether it was fast or not is not the topic,but at least they provided a character with visible fears and goals.
3-I'm not evading your argument that it may encourage abuse. Well, considering that such behavior is consistently written for that character , what age group would actually be influenced by it?
Baldurs gate has a 13+ age rate, which means that it has mature content and parents should have a look at it first but not really worry about anything too shocking nor inappropriate, so instead of saying "it may encourage abusive behavior" you would actually have present some arguments that prove how teenagers in general can get influenced by viconia's story. For the record, symbolic content isnt the same as real content which means Viconia's romance isnt real, but rather an allegory .
Lets be perfectly honest here. People only like Viconia because she is the most traditionally beautiful character. Nobody would give her a second look if she looked like Montaron.
Let me just take that one step further. On my part, I have no particular opinion on drow as an FR race in general. There are drow characters I like and vice versa, but Viconia is probably my second least favorite NPC in the game after Edwin. Too much shilling on her character to make her seem sympathetic without enough actual sympathetic qualities.
Also , none of the eligible romantic interests in the game look like montaron . Both Jaheira and Aerie look like nymphs, so it's quite unfair to say that only Viconia is tradionally beautiful. Is it appealing to players? Yes, it is, but sensuality and charisma are two different things, and I do believe that Viconia is not only a sensual but very charismatic character.
I therefore usually create new portraits for my own characters.
Even dualing from a Fighter at level 13 makes you lose on 8 ThAC0 points, some of best saves in the game and some of the best HLAs in the game. Grandmastery and few kit abilities are nowhere near enough to make up for it.
In fact, if you want to bother with dual classing at all, you should probably run a very small sized party(2-3) and delay the dual for as long as possible, dualing at either 17(best saves) or 21(best base ThAC0)
For instance, an illegal but fun dual class is the Thief—>Wizard Slayer. Most do the opposite, to alleviate the WS item restriction, but I believe T—>WS is more fun. You max out Detect Illusion and then you dual into WS. A really early dual. Now, you have a WS that can backstab a bit AND dispel illusions for free at the cost of no exceptional strength (which can be remedied by potions and tomes) and a bit of hp. However, you then have a very good mage killer.
Dualed as soon as I've reached 100% in Detect Illusions.
(Even solo, a Thief ->Wizard Slayer should be able to get the STR tome with DUHM and potions of master thievery, power, perception, mind focusing).
I think that without sufficient containers for gems, scrolls, and potions, inventory management is overwhelming and detracts from the game.
1. Only white
2. Only blue
3. Only red
4. Green and quest related paperware
There are two gem bags
1. Sellables
2. Magical rings and amulets