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Faiths and Powers: Gods of the Realms (Kitpack and divine caster/spell tweaks)

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  • PaulaMigratePaulaMigrate Member Posts: 1,201

    really from NTotSC again and I never play without that mod ever.
    So it looks like your mod doesn't like the shops from that mod and there is a pattern here.

    So weird though! We'll try to get to the bottom of it.

    As I say, worst comes to worst we can carve out individual exceptions for those stores. So if people playing with that mod can give us a list of all stores so affected, we can at least make a very rough "fix."

    EDIT - wait, is the other store, Haeben or whatever, also a fence? Maybe it's something to do with the stolen items flag?
    STHaebal.sto > No it is not.
    Those two are the only real stores added by the mod. There are two more sto but those are inn's and they only sell drinks, nothing wrong with those.
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited December 2017
    kjeron said:

    Re: spell weapons - I don't love the idea of using your own proficiency, unless we're willing to make a bunch of variants for the spell to be useful to a lot of people (Moonmace, Moonhammer, Moonaxe, etc).

    Rather than separate spells, you could let the spell automatically decide which weapon to create based on the casters proficiency, SPLPROT, and opcodes 326/318. Not a variety of weapons, just 2 identical version of the same one, except each uses a different proficiency.
    So the Moonblade checks Longsword proficiency, if its higher than what the spell would be providing at this level, create a version that uses Longsword proficiency. Otherwise, create a version that uses extraprof20.
    I like that. I'm probably going to have all of these ideas as seperate parts of the same components.

    Arizael said:

    But how will you make it work from balance point of view ?

    I mean we probably do not want level 3 wizard or cleric cast flame blade and get extra half APR with thac0 boost,

    That doesn't bother me. The whole idea of using a spell slot to conjure a weapon is, using that weapon should be more advantageous than using your normal weapon. And considering how these games shower you with powerful weapons, that's saying something.
    Arizael said:

    But a fighter/mage or fighter/cleric who just hit level 3 won´t probably find the spell appealing as casting it would mean he looses his precious specialization (he just earned), putting him back to 1 APR.

    This is way more worrisome to me than a single-class cleric or mage getting a melee boost. This means the spell is a failure, because it's not something you would ever memorize.
    Arizael said:

    So in the end how would you motivate the characters to invest his or her spell slot into the magical weapon ? I feel like the fighter multiclasses should be more inclined to go for them than single classes, but those should not be ommited as well.

    For me, the whole point of these spells is to make you better in melee. There are a couple ways to make them cool and attractive to occupy a previous spell slot:

    1) You should be slightly more dangerous with one of these weapons than you are with your normal weapon at any given stage of the game. That probably translates into giving you Specialization in the early game/with low-level spells; Mastery in the mid-game/with mid-level spells; and GM in the late game/with high-level spells.

    Note, warrior multiclasses benefit more as they get the benefits of WSPATCK.2DA; but if a players wants to use a mod that allows anyone to benefit from that file, it's that player's business.

    2) These spells should be situationally useful rather than broadly useful. Moonblade is geared toward battling undead; Flame Blade is useful against cold creatures/trolls/Stoneskins. Decastave, Shillelagh, Spiritual Hammer, etc. should have similar situational utility. Maybe they're not strictly better than your normal weapon, but they get secondary effects that make them starkly better in certain circumstances.

    Maybe Moonblade could carry a small (3') aura that Slows undead that come too close. Maybe Decastave could do sonic damage and have a chance to deafen. Maybe Shillelagh does extra damage against inanimate enemies like skeletons and golems. Maybe Spiritual Hammer actually attacks the spirit, doing stat damage to WIS or something. Maybe Phantom Blade robs memorized spells the way a Nishruu does.

    (Speaking if which, wouldn't Nishruu be great in the school of Illusion instead of Conjuration? Make it a pure phantasm of a creature, gashing holes in targets' minds and leaving empty spell slots in their wake.)
    Great ideas, all.

    Enter the shack from the rear
    That's what sh- oh forget it.

    I actually never knew about that.

    And I have to apologize.
    That guy, who opens the Sellanio.sto is really another mod-added creature. He was there in every game I ever played BGT or EET, so I mistook him for a vanilla guy. Also his shop has no prefix. But he's really from NTotSC again and I never play without that mod ever.
    So it looks like your mod doesn't like the shops from that mod and there is a pattern here.

    really from NTotSC again and I never play without that mod ever.
    So it looks like your mod doesn't like the shops from that mod and there is a pattern here.

    So weird though! We'll try to get to the bottom of it.

    As I say, worst comes to worst we can carve out individual exceptions for those stores. So if people playing with that mod can give us a list of all stores so affected, we can at least make a very rough "fix."

    EDIT - wait, is the other store, Haeben or whatever, also a fence? Maybe it's something to do with the stolen items flag?
    Yeah, I like the idea of excluding those stores from modification by fnp, at least as an immediate fix. (I also have no idea what our code is doing with stores...)
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    Yeah, in vanilla there is only a drugged out guard. Thanks for the reply though.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    My suggestion:

    Touch spells: give a Thac0 bonus and nothing else. An unmissable Harm would be kind of OP. The same for a high-level Shocking Grasp. And so it goes...

    Melee weapons: use the caster proficiency. If he can't use it, too bad for him. A wizard is not supposed to go melee (except for Tenser's Transformation), so if its stupid or overconfident enough to wield a Phantom Blade against a vampire or lich or skeleton warrior, good luck.

    Well, this is how I mod those kinds of spells in every single run that I play.
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  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    edited December 2017

    Raduziel said:

    Melee weapons: use the caster proficiency. If he can't use it, too bad for him. A wizard is not supposed to go melee (except for Tenser's Transformation), so if its stupid or overconfident enough to wield a Phantom Blade against a vampire or lich or skeleton warrior, good luck.

    Yeah, but giving that wizard 2 points in the proficiency won't make much of a difference, will it? Whereas, it will make it useful for the fighter/mage who specializes in bastard swords, when the spell weapon is coded as a long sword. Or the priest of Helm who uses hammers but gets a magical bastard sword. Or the fighter/cleric who puts points into flails, and thus can't get good use of Spiritual Hammer. Why, because one priest one time made a Spiritual Hammer spell and none else is allowed to have any other Spiritual weapon? That's silly. Why wouldn't his deity give him a Spiritual Flail variant, or something?

    And to me the "or something" is, have the magic make him good at using the hammer, while the hammer exists. It's a simple and effective solution.
    About the Wizard:

    Going from a minus 6 Thac0 penalty (non-proficient) to a plus 1 Thac0 bonus (specialist) is a huge difference.

    About the Fighter-Mage:

    He should be Intelligent enough to not summon a weapon he doesn't know how to wield. That's why I used to choose an assault rifle over an RPG every time I was on patrol duty.

    About the Priest of Helm:

    FnP solves this issue perfectly (I'll never lose an opportunity to praise this mod)

    About the Fighter-Cleric:

    The same logic used for the Fighter-Mage applies here. He should be Wise enough to not waste his time training with a non-optimal weapon or wasting his deity time praying for a spell that he can't properly use.

    About the deity question:

    Because it's the priest that serves the deity, not the other way around.

    Another thing:

    The only thing that I think that should be altered are the druid spells: every single one of them should be coded as either a club or scimitar or any other weapon that a druid can wield. Because it doesn't make sense that nature will give you a weapon that you cannot use because of your ethos toward serving nature. Would be like a priest receiving a spell that creates a halberd.

    The Priest of Helm specifically is an exception as the Bastard Sword is Helm's favored weapon. What doesn't makes sense, in this case, is a helmite not being allowed to use bastard swords (again, thanks for FnP).

    Edit:

    Another suggestion:

    Bless, Chant, Prayer, Recitation, Holy\Unholy Word should be the only Universal spells.

    Wondrous Recall should go to Knowledge.

    Sanctuary, Remove Curse and Lesser Restoration to Benediction.

    All the other to Life (maybe the ones related to Poison could go to Vigor for balance purposes).

    In PnP there are several priests that can't heal, so a cleric without a single Cure Light Wounds is not a total freak (I think that this was your concern when you made the Universal sphere the way you made, am I right?)
    Post edited by Raduziel on
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited December 2017
    Raduziel said:

    My suggestion:

    Touch spells: give a Thac0 bonus and nothing else. An unmissable Harm would be kind of OP. The same for a high-level Shocking Grasp. And so it goes...

    Melee weapons: use the caster proficiency. If he can't use it, too bad for him. A wizard is not supposed to go melee (except for Tenser's Transformation), so if its stupid or overconfident enough to wield a Phantom Blade against a vampire or lich or skeleton warrior, good luck.

    Well, this is how I mod those kinds of spells in every single run that I play.

    I forgot to specify that touch spells involve a save for half. Harm is a kind of weird case, that i have to think about...

    Edit: also, at least according to gamebanshee, iwd and bg implement the harm spell in very different ways. I'm already planning on having a 'iwdee style spells' component and a 'bgee style spells' component, so I need to thing about how this all interacts. I'll probably make it so that specific changes supersede more general changes where a change to 'touch' spells is more specific than a game-level style change.

    I'm interested primarily in offering a number of different options to allow players to play the game that suits them (I certainly don't mind the debate, but I'm going to offer as many optional options as possible regardless).
    Raduziel said:

    ...

    Another thing:

    The only thing that I think that should be altered are the druid spells: every single one of them should be coded as either a club or scimitar or any other weapon that a druid can wield. Because it doesn't make sense that nature will give you a weapon that you cannot use because of your ethos toward serving nature. Would be like a priest receiving a spell that creates a halberd.

    The Priest of Helm specifically is an exception as the Bastard Sword is Helm's favored weapon. What doesn't makes sense, in this case, is a helmite not being allowed to use bastard swords (again, thanks for FnP).

    Yup.

    Edit:

    Another suggestion:

    Bless, Chant, Prayer, Recitation, Holy\Unholy Word should be the only Universal spells.

    Wondrous Recall should go to Knowledge.

    Sanctuary, Remove Curse and Lesser Restoration to Benediction.

    All the other to Life (maybe the ones related to Poison could go to Vigor for balance purposes).

    In PnP there are several priests that can't heal, so a cleric without a single Cure Light Wounds is not a total freak (I think that this was your concern when you made the Universal sphere the way you made, am I right?)



    Well, we have to have a minimum of 7, one per level, or you won't be able to get past character creation in bg2ee (at least throne of Bhaal).

    The thing about healing is it's *expected* that the cleric can heal somewhat...
    Post edited by Grammarsalad on
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  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    It's your baby. I'm pretty sure that whatever you guys choose to do we'll be awesome.

    My argument is just to point that you and @Grammarsalad don't need to have all this work to make this mod more awesome than it already is.

    Well, we have to have a minimum of 7, one per level, or you won't be able to get past character creation in bg2ee (at least throne of Bhaal).

    The thing about healing is it's *expected* that the cleric can heal somewhat...

    I didn't understand the "minimum of 7", can you explain like I was 5?

    About the healing: it is expected that a priest won't use a two-handed sword, but here is FnP giving us the unexpected. And some deities just don't give the priest any access to healings (or just minor access): those usually have access to other things like thief skills, martial prowess or some arcane spells.

    I think that the altering that I suggested will enhance the replayability with FnP and make the player carry different priests in their party.
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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited December 2017

    It's your baby. I'm pretty sure that whatever you guys choose to do we'll be awesome.

    My argument is just to point that you and @Grammarsalad don't need to have all this work to make this mod more awesome than it already is.


    I should have made this more clear: this is for a seperate mod.

    Fnp will add all iwdee priest spells, a few iwdee wizard spells that are used in fnp, and a few new spells(assuming the update doesn't already do that: I'm only using iwdee 2.5.x).

    This other mod will do all of that and more.

    But it will be a seperate mod, (edit) which will be more like spell revisions
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263


    Yeah but you still end up with 12 thac0 and 1 APR, vs. 0 thac0 and 2.5 APR for a fighter/mage. A 6-point thac0 swing sounds like a lot, but the functional result is still someone who can't hit the broad side of a barn. So it's not like anything is being unbalanced. I mean, a +6 thac0 is nothing - that's less effective than a 1st-level spell (SR/PnP True Strike). Compare that to Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Tenser's, etc. etc. etc.

    Actualy True strike is now only 4 thac0 (and + crit), but lasts more rounds. And i found it pretty useful, it does not look like much, but for the multis the +4thac0 does wonders in the long run and it is actualy useful for vast majority of the saga.

    Stoneskin is obviously powerful, but it is defensive spell, it won´t kill anything. Fire shield is not much effective on it´s own - it requires investment of other spell slots (PfMW, stoneskins or i guess a lot of healing). And Tenser´s, unless i am horribly mistaken, disables spellcasting.


    Right but you're a fighter, not a magic-user. There's no reason a magical weapon made of moonbeams has to be on the shape of a sword, or a spirit weapon has to be in the shape of a hammer. They are magic... they are not bound by the constraints of an armory. I mean if Helm loves bastard swords so much why would he give his followers spells that create a Decastave or a Spiritual Hammer Or a Starmetal Cudgel? That doesn't make sense. Priest of Helm should be able to conjure a Decasword or a Spiritual sword or a Starmetal Sword, etc. the only reason why that isn't the case is an out-of-game reason: because Bioware didn't code them into the game.

    (PnP is not an answer; yes those particular variants were written in some books in PnP, but a] those PnP books didn't have a proficiency/mastery system of weapon expertise when those spells were written - a F/C could use any of them equally; and b] PnP has the explicit possibility of deviating from anything written in rulebooks, by for instance using variant forms of the written spells that conjure the caster's preferred weapon. As a DM I would absolutely allow players to do that.)

    You are absolutely correct here.

    Special magical proficiency does indeed sound like the best solution, as it does not involve creation of dozens of new ITM files and clunky casting submenus aka spell imunnity.

    Is it possible to code, so the magicial proficiency is counted as summary of the spell bonus with caster meele proficiency? So casting moonblade while you have only 1 meele pip could theoreticaly make you wield it as if you had 2 pips, while fighter/cleric with several pips in axes could potentialy wield it at grandmastery level.
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  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263

    Arizael said:

    Is it possible to code, so the magicial proficiency is counted as summary of the spell bonus with caster meele proficiency? So casting moonblade while you have only 1 meele pip could theoreticaly make you wield it as if you had 2 pips, while fighter/cleric with several pips in axes could potentialy wield it at grandmastery level.

    Theoretically, yes.
    Hopes are high :p
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  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    edited December 2017
    Investigating spell differences between IWDEE and BG(2)EE. A touch spell came up:

    //IWDEE: Auto hits; does 1d8 + 1/level (max 1d8+5 at 5th lev)

    //BGEE: 1d8 +1/lev, +1d2+str (fist), (Max 1d8 +20, +1d2+str at 20th lev); 1 round/lev to deliver touch +0 to hit!

    For Comparison SR is:

    SR: 1d8/2 levels (max 5d6 at 9th) (no fist dam), and stun 1 round (save neg). -1 to save/2 lev (max -4 at lev 9). +4 to hit.


    Is it possible to code, so the magicial proficiency is counted as summary of the spell bonus with caster meele proficiency? So casting moonblade while you have only 1 meele pip could theoreticaly make you wield it as if you had 2 pips, while fighter/cleric with several pips in axes could potentialy wield it at grandmastery level.


    Arizael said:

    Arizael said:

    Is it possible to code, so the magicial proficiency is counted as summary of the spell bonus with caster meele proficiency? So casting moonblade while you have only 1 meele pip could theoreticaly make you wield it as if you had 2 pips, while fighter/cleric with several pips in axes could potentialy wield it at grandmastery level.

    Theoretically, yes.
    Hopes are high :p
    Actually it could be problematic. We can set, say, Spiritual Hammer to use the war hammer proficiency, and give the item an equipping effect that increases your proficiency by 2 points. But, what if you already have 4 or 5 points? Now you end up with 6 or 7 and the game probably won't handle that well.

    When I play, I prefer a simple rule that all spell weapons created by 1st- through 3rd-level spells are wielded as if with specialization; those from 4th- and 5th-level spells with mastery; and those from 6th- through 9th-level spells with grandmastery. This way once per day per each spell slot, you can fight like an equivalent-level warrior (except still not really because your APR will suck).
    Well, we can use prof20 and base it off of hammer prof, and go from there. We could even combine these ideas.

    Say, if hammer (or whatever) prof is 1-4 stars and it's a level 1-3 spell, then proficiency20 is set to Hammer prof +1 (otherwise, it is set to 5 stars)

    Say, we have a spell level 4-5. If the relevant prof is 1-3 stars, then prof20 is set to that prof +2 (otherwise, it's set to 5 stars)

    And so on...

    Also, I kinda like as a third option, to make things more complicated, expertise based on caster level (about equivalent to what an equiv level fighter could reasonably have).
    Post edited by Grammarsalad on
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  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    edited December 2017
    @subtledoctor @Grammarsalad

    Bug report: Half-elves cannot become Zealots of Corellon Larethian. They become kitless Champions (not Zealots), are not barred from Evil alignments like the Zealot of Corellon Larethian is, and in-game (with the aid of NPC_ee) they get to choose a Champion kit, not a Zealot kit.

    Huh. Upon a re-install, lo and behold, now half-elves can become Zealots of Corellon in my game. Eh !?!


    Bug report 2: The duration of Corellon's Arrow is not defined in the Zealot of Corellon kit description. From the text, I'd expect the bonus was permanent, but it is not. It is cancelled upon resting. I have not stood around to see how long it lasts, though.

    Bug report 3: I just rolled up six Zealots of various races, alignments, and gods. Their special class-wide ability is called Smite (the Champion ability), not Frenzy, though it seems to activate Frenzy. This is consistent across all the kits I tried. Each kit also gets its unique power, of course (Corellon's Arrow, for example).

    This is FnP 0.74s.
    Post edited by Contemplative_Hamster on
  • Necromanx2Necromanx2 Member Posts: 1,246
    @Grammarsalad, were you able to update the water elemental duration and AI?
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582

    @subtledoctor @Grammarsalad
    ....

    Bug report 3: I just rolled up six Zealots of various races, alignments, and gods. Their special class-wide ability is called Smite (the Champion ability), not Frenzy, though it seems to activate Frenzy. This is consistent across all the kits I tried. Each kit also gets its unique power, of course (Corellon's Arrow, for example).

    This is FnP 0.74s.

    Thanks for the reports. I'm not sure that i understand this last issue. Could you elaborate?

    @Grammarsalad, were you able to update the water elemental duration and AI?

    Ahhh, not yet. I have a memory of looking at the spell and determining that the duration was actually correct, but that only the description needed updating. But, I'll have to look again to be sure.

    Wait, whats the issue with the ai? I do remember that there was something but i thought i fixed it
  • Necromanx2Necromanx2 Member Posts: 1,246
    The water elemental runs around all over. If I tell him to move somewhere he will start going there but then run around. You were going to give him the fire elemental AI.

    Note: Unless you made a change you didn't note, the duration lasts 1 turn +1 rnd /level while other elementals last 1 turn/level.
  • The ability in the kit description is called Frenzy. The ability in-game is called Smite. So it's a labelling issue.
  • ArizaelArizael Member Posts: 263
    Also the priest level 1 spell smite seems to have 2 icons. In spell book it looks like dispel magic, when casting the spell, the icon looks like poison weapon.
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    edited December 2017
    Bug reports:

    The Beastlord's Claw special ability does not have an image. It has a square button that you can click, but no image attached to it.

    Quite often when generating a new character during SOD, the Vampiric Touch special ability (the Bhaal power you get in BG chapter five or six) shows up with the name "Strunk's Elementals" or "Moving Crates." I've seen this behaviour across a number of installations with different combinations of mods. This might be a string reference error.

    Screen dump attached.




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  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    edited December 2017
    double post, sorry
  • @Contemplative_Hamster do you Modmerge?

    I do not. Bought everything straight off the Beamdog installer.
  • Screen dump attached in above post
  • Bug Report:

    Cleric of Umberlee does not gain his special Smashing Wave ability. This is quite consistent across several installations in a row. This is FnP 0.74s.

    Image attached.

    Guy DOES get the "Moving Crates" very special special ability instead of properly-labelled Vampiric Touch, though, so that's something :smile: )



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