YAY! At last! Well done @Mush_Mush, you're up next!
1) "I tell the truth, I say!" - in your argument with Jarlaxle, he asks Visaj whether he lied to the party, but Visaj assures Jarlaxle that he didn't lie.
2) "Hand-waving will get you nowhere" - also in your argument with Jarlaxle, he chastises Visaj for not pointing it out to him when your party got to the point of "gesticulating helplessly" ... so evidently Visaj isn't very good at noticing helpless gesticulation (i.e. hand-waving).
3) "I hear Dorn is pretty wearing" - the name "Visaj" is (presumably) pronounced similarly (i.e. "I hear") to the "Visage", which is a helmet which Dorn can obtain (and so likely be wearing) when completing his SoA questline.
4) "Trading with me is idiomatically almost worthless" - an English-language idiom for making an easy profit on goods of low intrinsic value is "money for old rope" ... and an old rope is literally what Visaj tries to sell you.
1. Saying somebody is "pretty wearing" makes it sound like you find them tiresome. I assumed that the answer was somebody who disliked Dorn. 2. Even if you guessed at the hidden second meaning of "pretty wearing," you'd have to guess at what piece of equipment Dorn was wearing. 3. Once you guessed a piece of equipment, your instinct would not be that the piece of equipment sounds like the answer--your instinct would be that the answer once commented that Dorn looked good when wearing that piece of equipment: "I think Dorn is pretty, when he's wearing X." 4. Even if you guessed it was the Visage, you'd have to guess that the name was a clue to Visaj, which is spelled differently and, to me, sounds like it would be pronounced "viss-sodge."
3) "I hear Dorn is pretty wearing" - the name "Visaj" is (presumably) pronounced similarly (i.e. "I hear") to the "Visage", which is a helmet which Dorn can obtain (and so likely be wearing) when completing his SoA questline.
...
Never in the entire lifespan of the universe would I have gotten the relevance of a clue like that! It would be like me saying "I am smooth as Hexxat." as a clue for Silkie!
In addition to this the first clue was so vague and general that it could have applied to practically anyone, maybe narrowing down the entire series by roughly 5%...
The fourth clue required knowledge from outside the game and even D&D in general. In addition to this, it gave a significant disadvantage to non-native english speakers and younger forum members because of the archaic idiom that I have never heard before that was specific to one culture. Not a very good play considering that there are many people fitting those descriptions here...
The second clue was probably the best one you gave as it points most specifically to something that is actually in the game, but was still quite vague...
Speaking honestly and bluntly... You need to think up a better method of making clues... Both the ones you have given were pretty ridiculous on the difficulty scale...
Sorry If I am sounding a bit critical, but I am just speaking my mind... I still like you and want you to play here, but you need to re-think some of your riddle techniques...
Seriously, I do like you and I mean no offense... but those clues were terrible...
@semiticgod ninja'd me and stole some of my thunder I see...
The fourth clue required knowledge from outside the game and even D&D in general. In addition to this, it gave a significant disadvantage to non-native english speakers and younger forum members because of the archaic idiom that I have never heard before that was specific to one culture. Not a very good play...
I'm a 50 year old, native English speaker, a voracious reader of a variety of genres, who has lived in several parts of the US and other nations. I have never encountered the phrase "money for old rope." I'm actually pretty curious now as to who uses that phrase.
@semiticgod - obviously you don't make a habit of doing cryptic crosswords ... and I specifically stated that the third clue was like a cryptic crossword clue. Despite your claim that this is too disconnected from the answer, it's actually very typical of the way that professional crossword-setters design clues. They almost always call for some lateral thinking and consideration of alternative meanings of the words, etc. If you're going to do a cryptic clue, I offer this one as a fair model for how it's done.
You also suggest that it's a fault that a clue might send someone on a wild goose chase, but on the contrary that's exactly what cryptic clues are meant to do at first, until you see through them and spot the logic. If all three clues were cryptics, then indeed that'd make for a very tough riddle, but when it's only one out of three, that's merely adding a little mental spice to the game. If we had a rule that all clues must be blandly literal, this would be a boring game of simple encyclopaedic recitation.
@Tresset - if you wouldn't eventually have seen the relevance of the third clue even after being told that it was a cryptic, then you also are probably not in the habit of doing cryptic crosswords. I assure you, daily newspapers where I live regularly set crossword clues which are more difficult than this one was.
The first clue was not at all vague. Visaj explicitly claims to have been telling the truth, which very few characters explicitly do ... and I specifically stated that this clue was literal. That actually narrows it by more like 99% than 5%. (Probably more than 99%, although I haven't tried counting instances.)
As for the second clue, Visaj is the only character in the whole game (SFAIR) for whom gesticulation is explicitly discussed in dialogue. If I'd quoted "gesticulation" in the clue, then it'd have been so specific that it couldn't possibly be anyone else, so I deliberately made it slightly less obvious by paraphrasing to "hand-waving", which means approximately the same without being a give-away direct quotation. So no, it's not "vague", it's actually fairly specific to Visaj when you think about what the wording means.
Regarding the fourth clue, well that was only offered as an additional hint, not part of the three-clue structure in the rules of the game, so I reckon I've got a freer hand in choosing what out-of-game references seem to me to be fair or for how wide an audience-segment the hint might be helpful. We're playing this in the English-speaking forum, so I don't feel obliged to avoid reference to English-language idioms. If I had given a hint based on (say) a French-language idiom, then yes, that might have been too obscure to be widely helpful in the English-language forum, but that's not what I did, and it's not my fault that you are apparently unaware of this idiom - contrary to what you say, it is a widespread current usage, although perhaps not globally (I wouldn't know) ... and the in-game text (especially Beamdog's additional material) itself contains many localised idiomatic usages which are probably obscure to many native English-speakers outside North America (let alone those players for whom English is not their native tongue!), so it is fully consistent with Beamdog's house style to use idioms which might not be globally known.
You accuse me of having made ridiculously difficult clues (on both occasions so far) and you pronounce from on high that I need to re-think my technique. Perhaps I should point out that the only prior "audience reaction" (which was to my previous riddle) was a complimentary remark that it was "a really intelligent riddle" (thanks, @RelSundan), so I reckon not everyone wants me to dumb it down.
I'm a 50 year old, native English speaker, a voracious reader of a variety of genres, who has lived in several parts of the US and other nations. I have never encountered the phrase "money for old rope." I'm actually pretty curious now as to who uses that phrase.
Common usage in British English, you'd certainly have heard it many times if your peregrinations had included much time in the UK. I've also heard it used in casual local conversation in Australia (although I haven't spent enough time there to be clear about how common it is there). I've also heard both Americans and Canadians use the phrase (although that was among a corporate group who had spent time living in the UK, so maybe they picked it over here), and I'm also pretty sure that I've heard a South African acquaintance use it (although again that's someone who regularly travels to the UK).
@Gallowglass Well... I admit I am a bit prone to exaggeration and for some reason virtually every time I use that literary mechanism everyone around me takes it exactly as stated and not as exaggeration (a mind boggling and infuriating phenomena to me, as THEY use facetious speech all the time...).
As for using super ultra mega cryptic crossword puzzle clues... This ain't exactly a crossword puzzle; so to speak. We don't have other words all over the place and 30 or so other clues to work with if we get stumped for a bit. We don't have parts of the answer word to work with either. I can understand that you like that style of clue, but not everyone is into that specific style of clue... I have heard many people tell me that you have to learn the language of crossword puzzles to get them and be any good at them and that they are something of an acquired taste. I also point out that you had to basically tell us which specific area to guess from (giving us APPROXIMATELY 1-7% of the series to work with) before we even got anywhere near the answer... and even then we were very unsure of whether or not we were right...
As for audience reactions; I see 2 definite dislikes of this particular puzzle (from semiticgod and I) and 2 potential dislikes of it (from BillyYank and RelSundan).
I am just saying the point of this is to have fun and not to stump everyone else and see who can come up with the most cryptic clues. I myself considered the feedback from some of my clues carefully and have made changes to the way I give them here. You can use your cryptic crossword clues if you want, but I don't think many people will like them if they are as hard far-fetched as these ones about Visaj were (admittedly the Adalon one wasn't nearly as bad, provided you are thinking outside the box).
Anyway, my point is not to get into an argument about this, just to offer some constructive criticism. I will be the first to admit that my prior post was not "constructive criticism" and more "angry venting criticism". I would rather get on with the game now.
@Gallowglass Well... I admit I am a bit prone to exaggeration and for some reason virtually every time I use that literary mechanism everyone around me takes it exactly as stated and not as exaggeration (a mind boggling and infuriating phenomena to me, as THEY use facetious speech all the time...).
Sometimes I find the same infuriation, too. Those of us old enough to remember when conversations were spoken, became accustomed to people being able to detect (by tones and facial expressions, etc.) when we're exaggerating for emphasis, and writing as you would have spoken (if anyone still spoke these days) leads to misunderstandings because those non-verbal cues are missing.
... I have heard many people tell me that you have to learn the language of crossword puzzles to get them and be any good at them and that they are something of an acquired taste.
Yes. However, I reckon the mindset which causes people to like riddles is very similar to the mindset which causes people to like crosswords, so I'd expect that people who want to play this riddling game are quite likely to enjoy crossword-like clues. Obviously not in every case, but I think it's mostly a fair assumption.
I am just saying the point of this is to have fun and not to stump everyone else and see who can come up with the most cryptic clues.
Well heck, yes, of course. But I'm expecting people who play a riddling game to enjoy a bit of a puzzle, not to be the sort who might enjoy winning merely by being the first to see the clues and instantly posting the completely-obvious answer. After all, we're adventure gamers here, not FPS players - we like our entertainments to have an element of mental challenge, rather than requiring only a fast reaction time!
I may have made the last one a little too difficult, and I said so myself even before you started berating me about it, but I don't think I'm wrong to be aiming above a trivial level of difficulty.
You accuse me of having made ridiculously difficult clues (on both occasions so far) and you pronounce from on high that I need to re-think my technique. Perhaps I should point out that the only prior "audience reaction" (which was to my previous riddle) was a complimentary remark that it was "a really intelligent riddle" (thanks, @RelSundan), so I reckon not everyone wants me to dumb it down.
Now I was just joking. I don't mind some riddles being too difficult. We solved this one at last.
For those who don't know if you have Mazzy in your party (as I often do) and are near the entrance to the Copper Coronet she will be insulted by "Gorf the Squisher" a half ogre whom then attacks a bystander. Mazzy will challenge him to a duel. Bunkin is Gorf's apparent girlfriend in the Coronet, she comments that she is "busy looking pretty" and triggers Gorf to enter when charname asks about him (if it is the appropriate time).
Just a quick note, regarding that Gallowglass's puzzle.
It's OK to express a frustration about a certain riddle and about certain clues. But everyone have to remember that it's OK to formulate clues in the way an author wants. All we can do is to provide feedback and general advice on the given clues. But it's better not to criticize another participant of a fun thread. Because the actual aim of such thread is fun.
... Wouldn't happen to be Khalid, would it? Shares the same voice actor as Edwin in BG1, I assume a different one in BG2 during Jaheira's romance dream sequence... I think some of the others migggght be in relation to his selection text, but I'm not positive.
Yes, I too thought about Khalid as soon as I read the first clues, but then... poor Khalid doesn't strike fear into the hearts of men, it's actually him who is feared in most cases.
Comments
1) "I tell the truth, I say!" - in your argument with Jarlaxle, he asks Visaj whether he lied to the party, but Visaj assures Jarlaxle that he didn't lie.
2) "Hand-waving will get you nowhere" - also in your argument with Jarlaxle, he chastises Visaj for not pointing it out to him when your party got to the point of "gesticulating helplessly" ... so evidently Visaj isn't very good at noticing helpless gesticulation (i.e. hand-waving).
3) "I hear Dorn is pretty wearing" - the name "Visaj" is (presumably) pronounced similarly (i.e. "I hear") to the "Visage", which is a helmet which Dorn can obtain (and so likely be wearing) when completing his SoA questline.
4) "Trading with me is idiomatically almost worthless" - an English-language idiom for making an easy profit on goods of low intrinsic value is "money for old rope" ... and an old rope is literally what Visaj tries to sell you.
1. Saying somebody is "pretty wearing" makes it sound like you find them tiresome. I assumed that the answer was somebody who disliked Dorn.
2. Even if you guessed at the hidden second meaning of "pretty wearing," you'd have to guess at what piece of equipment Dorn was wearing.
3. Once you guessed a piece of equipment, your instinct would not be that the piece of equipment sounds like the answer--your instinct would be that the answer once commented that Dorn looked good when wearing that piece of equipment: "I think Dorn is pretty, when he's wearing X."
4. Even if you guessed it was the Visage, you'd have to guess that the name was a clue to Visaj, which is spelled differently and, to me, sounds like it would be pronounced "viss-sodge."
Never in the entire lifespan of the universe would I have gotten the relevance of a clue like that! It would be like me saying "I am smooth as Hexxat." as a clue for Silkie!
In addition to this the first clue was so vague and general that it could have applied to practically anyone, maybe narrowing down the entire series by roughly 5%...
The fourth clue required knowledge from outside the game and even D&D in general. In addition to this, it gave a significant disadvantage to non-native english speakers and younger forum members because of the archaic idiom that I have never heard before that was specific to one culture. Not a very good play considering that there are many people fitting those descriptions here...
The second clue was probably the best one you gave as it points most specifically to something that is actually in the game, but was still quite vague...
Speaking honestly and bluntly... You need to think up a better method of making clues... Both the ones you have given were pretty ridiculous on the difficulty scale...
Sorry If I am sounding a bit critical, but I am just speaking my mind... I still like you and want you to play here, but you need to re-think some of your riddle techniques...
Seriously, I do like you and I mean no offense... but those clues were terrible...
@semiticgod ninja'd me and stole some of my thunder I see...
You also suggest that it's a fault that a clue might send someone on a wild goose chase, but on the contrary that's exactly what cryptic clues are meant to do at first, until you see through them and spot the logic. If all three clues were cryptics, then indeed that'd make for a very tough riddle, but when it's only one out of three, that's merely adding a little mental spice to the game. If we had a rule that all clues must be blandly literal, this would be a boring game of simple encyclopaedic recitation.
@Tresset - if you wouldn't eventually have seen the relevance of the third clue even after being told that it was a cryptic, then you also are probably not in the habit of doing cryptic crosswords. I assure you, daily newspapers where I live regularly set crossword clues which are more difficult than this one was.
The first clue was not at all vague. Visaj explicitly claims to have been telling the truth, which very few characters explicitly do ... and I specifically stated that this clue was literal. That actually narrows it by more like 99% than 5%. (Probably more than 99%, although I haven't tried counting instances.)
As for the second clue, Visaj is the only character in the whole game (SFAIR) for whom gesticulation is explicitly discussed in dialogue. If I'd quoted "gesticulation" in the clue, then it'd have been so specific that it couldn't possibly be anyone else, so I deliberately made it slightly less obvious by paraphrasing to "hand-waving", which means approximately the same without being a give-away direct quotation. So no, it's not "vague", it's actually fairly specific to Visaj when you think about what the wording means.
Regarding the fourth clue, well that was only offered as an additional hint, not part of the three-clue structure in the rules of the game, so I reckon I've got a freer hand in choosing what out-of-game references seem to me to be fair or for how wide an audience-segment the hint might be helpful. We're playing this in the English-speaking forum, so I don't feel obliged to avoid reference to English-language idioms. If I had given a hint based on (say) a French-language idiom, then yes, that might have been too obscure to be widely helpful in the English-language forum, but that's not what I did, and it's not my fault that you are apparently unaware of this idiom - contrary to what you say, it is a widespread current usage, although perhaps not globally (I wouldn't know) ... and the in-game text (especially Beamdog's additional material) itself contains many localised idiomatic usages which are probably obscure to many native English-speakers outside North America (let alone those players for whom English is not their native tongue!), so it is fully consistent with Beamdog's house style to use idioms which might not be globally known.
You accuse me of having made ridiculously difficult clues (on both occasions so far) and you pronounce from on high that I need to re-think my technique. Perhaps I should point out that the only prior "audience reaction" (which was to my previous riddle) was a complimentary remark that it was "a really intelligent riddle" (thanks, @RelSundan), so I reckon not everyone wants me to dumb it down.
As for using super ultra mega cryptic crossword puzzle clues... This ain't exactly a crossword puzzle; so to speak. We don't have other words all over the place and 30 or so other clues to work with if we get stumped for a bit. We don't have parts of the answer word to work with either. I can understand that you like that style of clue, but not everyone is into that specific style of clue... I have heard many people tell me that you have to learn the language of crossword puzzles to get them and be any good at them and that they are something of an acquired taste. I also point out that you had to basically tell us which specific area to guess from (giving us APPROXIMATELY 1-7% of the series to work with) before we even got anywhere near the answer... and even then we were very unsure of whether or not we were right...
As for audience reactions; I see 2 definite dislikes of this particular puzzle (from semiticgod and I) and 2 potential dislikes of it (from BillyYank and RelSundan).
I am just saying the point of this is to have fun and not to stump everyone else and see who can come up with the most cryptic clues. I myself considered the feedback from some of my clues carefully and have made changes to the way I give them here. You can use your cryptic crossword clues if you want, but I don't think many people will like them if they are as
hardfar-fetched as these ones about Visaj were (admittedly the Adalon one wasn't nearly as bad, provided you are thinking outside the box).Anyway, my point is not to get into an argument about this, just to offer some constructive criticism. I will be the first to admit that my prior post was not "constructive criticism" and more "angry venting criticism". I would rather get on with the game now.
I may have made the last one a little too difficult, and I said so myself even before you started berating me about it, but I don't think I'm wrong to be aiming above a trivial level of difficulty.
I'll try n slide the difficulty down from LoB to Core.
I am very pretty
This job keeps me busy.
Come to me to ask and see
If you're ready to be dead and squishy.
...I might've overshot Core and landed on easy, we'll see
As a little caveat, and kindof an additional clue, the "you're" doesn't directly refer to charname.
EDIT: Misread... again.
For those who don't know if you have Mazzy in your party (as I often do) and are near the entrance to the Copper Coronet she will be insulted by "Gorf the Squisher" a half ogre whom then attacks a bystander. Mazzy will challenge him to a duel. Bunkin is Gorf's apparent girlfriend in the Coronet, she comments that she is "busy looking pretty" and triggers Gorf to enter when charname asks about him (if it is the appropriate time).
Well done Tresset! You're up next
Who needs permission when you have sheer force of personality? Not I, for I strike fear into the hearts of men!
I share the voice of a muttering mage... at least sometimes...
It's OK to express a frustration about a certain riddle and about certain clues. But everyone have to remember that it's OK to formulate clues in the way an author wants. All we can do is to provide feedback and general advice on the given clues. But it's better not to criticize another participant of a fun thread. Because the actual aim of such thread is fun.
Carry on!
Do not make the mistake of thinking I have feathers!
I have one of the most common problems in the world. A certain pair of moronic goons also have this problem.
If no one gets it by the time I wake up tomorrow then I will try to direct you on how to think about the given clues.