More recent versions of EE give casters a chance to finish their spells even if they take damage multiple times during casting. Interruption is still possible, but it's no longer guaranteed.
Scripted spells are still uninterruptible, but SCS avoids those.
Mirror Image was just one example. He casted Invisibility, Shadow Door, Domination, etc... Everything under poison/cold/bleed damage.
It's basically a feat of the engine itself. Sometimes, the spell goes off regardless of how many times you hit the mage. It's the same with SCS/Anvil/vanilla, it's just the way of the weave.
Now a dragon disciple getting disrupted by fire damage when they have over 100% fire resistance on the other hand...
This I agree is beyond stupid. Unfortunately, a lot of Anvil battles actually depend on disrupting casters with zero-damage instances. To change this, use ToBex no interruption on 0 damage tweak on old engine. On EEs, things can be even more improved however, and I'm writing a mod (it will be included in SR by default I hope) that will make things like Fireball completely unaffect characters with 100% Fire resistance, ADHW won't touch people with 100% Magic damage resistance and similar. So even w/o Tobex EE players will be able to enjoy this feat. The "bad" thing is that it will prevent the exploit where you heal up while getting burned and similar.
More recent versions of EE give casters a chance to finish their spells even if they take damage multiple times during casting. Interruption is still possible, but it's no longer guaranteed.
Scripted spells are still uninterruptible, but SCS avoids those.
Scripted spells are still uninterruptible, but SCS avoids those.
All spells are scripted; it's just a matter of what script.
If you use Spell() and SpellNoDec(), you can be interrupted. If you use ApplySpell(), ForceSpell() and ReallyForceSpell(), you can't be. The vanilla game often uses the latter as a quick-and-dirty way of making a fight harder. SCS basically doesn't, at least not for humanoid wizards/priests (dragons are a different matter).
Thanks @Arctodus and like your mod set up and considering divine remix to start my PC cleric kit then dual to mage at some lvl between 11-13 which should be fun with all the other challenges when I'm gimped for those levels...rogue rebalancing/atweaks was recommended to me before so will consider - I do want some extra quest content that wont mess up but maybe no big expansion quests (dark side of sword coast?) as BP added quests were alot of fun when I played a semi playthrough on TOB...I'll double check which ones seem compatible on the forum. Thanks too @Aasim as looked into Anvil/Tactics but seems alot of cheese at least until maybe I try SCS first then maybe consider it...
If I were to recommend a tactical mod from those three it would be this order 1. scs minus some subcomponents that soup up some creatures (looking at vampires for exmple...). 2. Tactics since it only does the big fights and the easier ones are okay to grind a bit of XP for the next tough fight. 3. anvil because ramps up the difficulty do fast that most people are put off by it. You need to put in effort to get through and even stall certain fights until later. It is not unheard of that people do level 1 of a dungeon, leave and come back later when they gained 5 levels for the rest.
So in my opinion you took the right decision . Good luck with the run!
Thanks @lroumen , SCS is the way to go but debating on not adding the improved vamps/beholders as everything I read seems like theyre just going to be too much...want a challenge they might be too absurd...I read about quest pack @Mantis37 and thought about adding but is it compatible with SCS?
Thanks @lroumen , SCS is the way to go but debating on not adding the improved vamps/beholders as everything I read seems like theyre just going to be too much...want a challenge they might be too absurd...I read about quest pack @Mantis37 and thought about adding but is it compatible with SCS?
If you are high enough level, then they won't be too much.
Although I had to uninstall the "improved vampires" because of crashes, I did have a good go at them in Firkrags Lair beforehand. But I was at the level with Anomen that without that component, they simply exploded, so no fight at all. So until crashes, I did actually get a fight, a long interesting fight and that was a good change.
Beholders, didn't notice the difference in the lairs, but once again, I was OP. It was crossing the "bridge" in the UE quest that was the hardest,
So I'd say install, have a go, and then if it's too much or your levels aren't high enough, just turn the difficulty slider down. At least that way you will get the variation and see what SCS does with them.
From the SCS readme: "Quest Pack's AI and creature enhancements should be compatible with SCS II. Install Quest Pack first, then install whichever components of SCS you want: they will override the Quest Pack for the affected creatures. Quest Pack still has some content not influenced by SCS II: notably, it improves Mummies and Umber Hulks."
Just Quest Pack AI will be slightly more difficult than the base game, but not really close to SCS I think.
Vampire crashes is a persistent annoyance - anyone got a reliable situation that causes them? (It's an animation problem of some kind but I'm unclear what.)
Vampire crashes is a persistent annoyance - anyone got a reliable situation that causes them? (It's an animation problem of some kind but I'm unclear what.)
For me it was when they turned into bats. In the fight in Firkrag's there was so much going on it was difficult to tell. But when I had to meet Mook, the single vampire turns up and it was easy to see when the crash happened, "oh look, there's a bat"...."oh look, there's a black screen"...... fun times.
Thanks @lroumen , SCS is the way to go but debating on not adding the improved vamps/beholders as everything I read seems like theyre just going to be too much...want a challenge they might be too absurd...I read about quest pack @Mantis37 and thought about adding but is it compatible with SCS?
They really aren't much more difficult than normal EE, to be honest. Vampires are still tremendously easy to handle with a cleric, and the beholders are not much cheaper than in normal EE. They can throw you against the wall, but items like Arbane's Sword, Mustard Jelly Form and Shield of Balduran (if you don't delay it to ToB), as well as shorty charnames/NPCs, are still the same beholder panaceas they've always been. Beholders now have a chance to take you anti-beholder items, but they only have a chance, and there's no guarantee that your critical item will be the one they take even when they take something. So ya, beholders are still just like spinning the old roulette wheel. From a tactical perspective they aren't very different from their unimproved counterparts.
Improved or not, beholders are still just crazy deadly baddies that are stupid easy if you have one magic bullet item. Or Mazzy, with the shield of harmony and sword of avoreen/arbane.
Actually, from what I can personally tell, beholders might be a bit easier in their 'improved' form. Normal EE beholders always zapped away all magic effects almost instantly, but I think now they only have a 'chance' to do that. Even some of my potion effects seem to hang around longer than usual, and potions ALWAYS seemed to get dispelled because they are so low level. I could be mistaken though, because it's been a while since I've not used the shield of balduran, and I always remember buffs being really useless against them. Only recently have I been shivving them to death in the nude.
As for the pre-buffing (swtiching to other thread topics), it's worth noting that SCS is very up front about this. It's not cheating in the context of how it is justified. Whether or not it looks like cheating is up to your playstyle; if you are like me (no buffing leroy-jenson-type who slings no spells until the battle starts), it's probably not for you and may very well constitute a real handicap.
I, personally, was never a pre-buffer, and I'm still not. I prefer an extremely aggressive disabling style of play, so it's not uncommon for me to have Edwin or Imoen using damaging or debilitating abilities right in the thick of things, naked as the day they were born (and still surviving, sometimes even with 'only' serious or critical wounds, through the shrewd placement of firepower), so in that sense my own recklessness has always provided an adequate leveling of the playfield against the A.I. I played SCS for a long time without pre-buffing until a recent re-install where I just went 'fuck it, yesify all the thnigs!'. Now even with prebuffing, it's not so difficult though my biggest pet peeve with it has and always will be the fact that I have to 'slog' my way through whole maps while these pre-buffed mages only have to fight one battle.
Still, however, the unenchanted dart, throwing dagger and normal arrow are your most powerful weapons against mages. Even some of the HLA wielding baddies are laughably vulnerable to those humble weapons, presumably because the creator of SCS assumed human players would always get rid of normal weapons in favour of the most highly enchanted items they could find. Truly, the game could be made so much more challenging if even a couple mages thought about using mantle instead of the (in my opinion) ridiculously overrated PFMW, which is really more of a strong spell against monsters rather than weapon/spell wielding humanoid enemies, at least in the early stages of the game when +3 weapons are only available in two or three types. PFMW only really becomes terrifically strong after the opening chapters of BG2, when everything under the sun with a hard-on for killing you is enchanted in some way.
Yet even in ToB, when it seems logical that everything you might have would need to be enchanted, a sort of regression happens and mages drop like flies against a whirlwind of normal arrows.
There are a few specific vendors that sell a limited quantity of poison throwing daggers with can make mages like Sion, who for all their high level bluster and massive protection spells, sputter and conniption in writhing agony while you laugh at them dropping after two rounds because they invested their round-action in PFMW and horrid wilting instead of something more practical.
Note that while normal melee weapons almost always get through to human mages, PfMW + Protection from Normal Missiles is a completely standard and viable option. And that liches and Rakshashas and basically every spellcaster that should legitimately be feared, are all immune to normal weapons anyways, spells or no spells. A Lich with PfMW up is legitimately immune to everything before a Breach or Dispel.
The creatures that I found most impacted by SCS are Illithids, Spirit Trolls, and Genies. Ballistic missile from certain mindflayers are complete game changers, and Greater Command + Unholy Blight + Strength drain + freaking undispellable Improved Invisibility + Flame strike (?) makes Spirit trolls into a nightmare unless you're soloing or using a custom party. That area in Nalia's keep with 2 or 3 spirit trolls? Bloody massacre.
Genies you just have to be aware of their no-cast-time Flesh to Stone casts and have everyone involved with Protection From Petrification, but still bears mentioning.
They really aren't much more difficult than normal EE, to be honest. Vampires are still tremendously easy to handle with a cleric, and the beholders are not much cheaper than in normal EE. They can throw you against the wall, but items like Arbane's Sword, Mustard Jelly Form and Shield of Balduran (if you don't delay it to ToB), as well as shorty charnames/NPCs, are still the same beholder panaceas they've always been. Beholders now have a chance to take you anti-beholder items, but they only have a chance, and there's no guarantee that your critical item will be the one they take even when they take something. So ya, beholders are still just like spinning the old roulette wheel. From a tactical perspective they aren't very different from their unimproved counterparts.
Still, however, the unenchanted dart, throwing dagger and normal arrow are your most powerful weapons against mages. Even some of the HLA wielding baddies are laughably vulnerable to those humble weapons, presumably because the creator of SCS assumed human players would always get rid of normal weapons in favour of the most highly enchanted items they could find. Truly, the game could be made so much more challenging if even a couple mages thought about using mantle instead of the (in my opinion) ridiculously overrated PFMW, which is really more of a strong spell against monsters rather than weapon/spell wielding humanoid enemies, at least in the early stages of the game when +3 weapons are only available in two or three types. PFMW only really becomes terrifically strong after the opening chapters of BG2, when everything under the sun with a hard-on for killing you is enchanted in some way.
@sluckers I wonder whether there's a problem with your installation or you're playing with a very old version? In my experience it's not very long at all before beholders take the Shield of Balduran (and they specifically identify that). You should also need a lot more protection than against hold and stun to stop them. In relation to using normal weapons I agree that can sometimes be helpful, but any SCS mage worth his salt would be expected to have protection from normal missiles up as part of his starting buffs - they should also regularly use mantle / improved mantle / absolute immunity rather than PFMW, so that attacking with normal melee weapons won't always work.
I find that which were my bugbears without SCS are still my bugbears with it. Things that can hit you VERY hard. Trolls (spirit or otherwise), Golums, and fully armoured, potion downing fighters.
They are the only ones that can do significant damage to my skeleton armies (and armies it is when you have high level cleric/mage). Mages, once they have used the death spells up, what else can they do to Skellies? I think the thing SCS could do, (though I would probably not use it if it did, too much like hard work) would be to tone down just how effective Skeleton Warriors are, both how long they last and the immunity to magic.
The run I did I found I used virtually no other summons (except for HLA Planeteers, who wouldn't), even Mordikens Swords didn't measure up because of the duration of the spell.
@sluckers I wonder whether there's a problem with your installation or you're playing with a very old version? In my experience it's not very long at all before beholders take the Shield of Balduran (and they specifically identify that). You should also need a lot more protection than against hold and stun to stop them. In relation to using normal weapons I agree that can sometimes be helpful, but any SCS mage worth his salt would be expected to have protection from normal missiles up as part of his starting buffs - they should also regularly use mantle / improved mantle / absolute immunity rather than PFMW, so that attacking with normal melee weapons won't always work.
@Grond0 I can't say about the shield, as I no longer have access to it. As far as I know SCS has moved it and Robe of Vecna to ToB. Even if it was still something I could purchase in SoA, there's only a 50% chance now that I get Lady Yuth in Adventure Mart before returning from spellhold.
Arbane's Sword most certainly isn't enough protection from beholders, this is true, but it keeps you in the fight and doing damage so that you can kill the beholders off before they kill you. As long as you're not paralyzed you have a fighting chance. The rest you can soak up with a smile and still come through in the end. Luckily the beholders haven't yet taken THAT from me. But I've only faced the unseeing eye beholders since re-installing.
As for prot. from missiles, I think it's appearance depends on what pre-buffing setting you install. I'm seeing it much more now after re-installing SCS. Mages are still favouring PFMW though, and saving Mantle for their second or third line of defence. I find it extremely rare to see it in an opening trigger.
PMW vs Mantle is quite a delicate question in SCS - I've tweaked it back and forth at various points. I certainly expect PCs to carry nonmagical weapons and to use them; on the other hand (I) PMW is lower level; sometimes I'd rather not use up a top-level spell slot. (The "SCS plays fair" thing - I do keep to creatures' memorisation limits) (ii) PMW at least protects you from nasty effect-on-hit weapons, which (poisoned daggers notwithstanding) are nearly all magical. On the other hand, if you use Mantle and it turns out your enemy has a +4 weapon, it's useless.
Probably the scaling of protection spells should have been tier based. - Prot vs normal missiles becomes prot vs normal weapons - Prot vs normal weapons becomes prot vs 0/+1 - pfmw becomes prot vs 0/+1/+2 - mantle 0/+1/+2/+3 - imp mantle 0/+1/+2/+3/+4 - abs immunity all. And have more breach like spells that take them down tier based....
But i guess people are too used to the current way of playing.
Probably the scaling of protection spells should have been tier based. - Prot vs normal missiles becomes prot vs normal weapons - Prot vs normal weapons becomes prot vs 0/+1 - pfmw becomes prot vs 0/+1/+2 - mantle 0/+1/+2/+3 - imp mantle 0/+1/+2/+3/+4 - abs immunity all. And have more breach like spells that take them down tier based....
But i guess people are too used to the current way of playing.
That, and also it's a design principle in SCS to modify spells and items as minimally as possible. It's perfectly possible to script AI around the existing structure (albeit with a minor tweak in the efficacy of mantle) so I don't want to make more sweeping changes. (SR has a different design principle because it's actively aimed at revamping the spell system.)
SCS Beholders - at least in my version - are instantly dragging Shield of Balduran or Cloak of Mirroring once they realize that their own spells are coming back. The trick that pulled me through easily was: Engage them without shield -> Equip Shield when the first Rays are midair -> wait until they returned to the Beholders -> unequip the Shield before they try to use telekinesis -> watch how they only use Close Combat and their Anti-Magic-Dispel -> hack them to pieces as they are still thinking you are wearing the shield -> easy but cheesy!
SCS also changes SoD a little but. I have noticed several battles - the Spider Cave is the most famous here - where the "improved call for help" triggered nearby enemy groups that did NOT joined the battle when playing without SCS. The rest seems to be quite similar or remains the same.
It doesn't intentionally change SoD (the current version of SCS came out before SoD). There are probably a couple of stray places in SoD where an old AI script is being used - SCS uses the presence of certain vanilla-game scripts as its cue to edit.
Alot of good input here guys, yeah @UnderstandMouseMagic and @Mantis37 I'm alittle concerned with imp. vampires if buggy and may crash as read before about this issue...especially if it doesnt make a big change then maybe I can skip - Good to know Quest pack works and will follow adding SCS afterwards. Wondering if I should hold off Spell revisions as might be too much to digest with everything...Great input too @DavidW - I'll put together my mod list soon and start this first of many SCS runs!
I would skip many of the 'improved' parts myself for a first run, as improved often means much tougher! It depends on your tolerance for reloading. Enjoy though
Thanks @Mantis37 Lol dont like reloading but need a step up after several playthroughs of vanila/BGEE trilogy...maybe I'll hold off SR as might change too many dynamics.
I found this old thread of an install order with BP and SCS that I liked - would this work with SOD or any know of these mods not working together currently...
Comments
Scripted spells are still uninterruptible, but SCS avoids those.
Who's the useless now?
If you use Spell() and SpellNoDec(), you can be interrupted. If you use ApplySpell(), ForceSpell() and ReallyForceSpell(), you can't be. The vanilla game often uses the latter as a quick-and-dirty way of making a fight harder. SCS basically doesn't, at least not for humanoid wizards/priests (dragons are a different matter).
Thanks too @Aasim as looked into Anvil/Tactics but seems alot of cheese at least until maybe I try SCS first then maybe consider it...
1. scs minus some subcomponents that soup up some creatures (looking at vampires for exmple...).
2. Tactics since it only does the big fights and the easier ones are okay to grind a bit of XP for the next tough fight.
3. anvil because ramps up the difficulty do fast that most people are put off by it. You need to put in effort to get through and even stall certain fights until later. It is not unheard of that people do level 1 of a dungeon, leave and come back later when they gained 5 levels for the rest.
So in my opinion you took the right decision
Although I had to uninstall the "improved vampires" because of crashes, I did have a good go at them in Firkrags Lair beforehand. But I was at the level with Anomen that without that component, they simply exploded, so no fight at all.
So until crashes, I did actually get a fight, a long interesting fight and that was a good change.
Beholders, didn't notice the difference in the lairs, but once again, I was OP. It was crossing the "bridge" in the UE quest that was the hardest,
So I'd say install, have a go, and then if it's too much or your levels aren't high enough, just turn the difficulty slider down. At least that way you will get the variation and see what SCS does with them.
Just Quest Pack AI will be slightly more difficult than the base game, but not really close to SCS I think.
In the fight in Firkrag's there was so much going on it was difficult to tell. But when I had to meet Mook, the single vampire turns up and it was easy to see when the crash happened, "oh look, there's a bat"...."oh look, there's a black screen"...... fun times.
Improved or not, beholders are still just crazy deadly baddies that are stupid easy if you have one magic bullet item. Or Mazzy, with the shield of harmony and sword of avoreen/arbane.
Actually, from what I can personally tell, beholders might be a bit easier in their 'improved' form. Normal EE beholders always zapped away all magic effects almost instantly, but I think now they only have a 'chance' to do that. Even some of my potion effects seem to hang around longer than usual, and potions ALWAYS seemed to get dispelled because they are so low level. I could be mistaken though, because it's been a while since I've not used the shield of balduran, and I always remember buffs being really useless against them. Only recently have I been shivving them to death in the nude.
As for the pre-buffing (swtiching to other thread topics), it's worth noting that SCS is very up front about this. It's not cheating in the context of how it is justified. Whether or not it looks like cheating is up to your playstyle; if you are like me (no buffing leroy-jenson-type who slings no spells until the battle starts), it's probably not for you and may very well constitute a real handicap.
I, personally, was never a pre-buffer, and I'm still not. I prefer an extremely aggressive disabling style of play, so it's not uncommon for me to have Edwin or Imoen using damaging or debilitating abilities right in the thick of things, naked as the day they were born (and still surviving, sometimes even with 'only' serious or critical wounds, through the shrewd placement of firepower), so in that sense my own recklessness has always provided an adequate leveling of the playfield against the A.I. I played SCS for a long time without pre-buffing until a recent re-install where I just went 'fuck it, yesify all the thnigs!'. Now even with prebuffing, it's not so difficult though my biggest pet peeve with it has and always will be the fact that I have to 'slog' my way through whole maps while these pre-buffed mages only have to fight one battle.
Still, however, the unenchanted dart, throwing dagger and normal arrow are your most powerful weapons against mages. Even some of the HLA wielding baddies are laughably vulnerable to those humble weapons, presumably because the creator of SCS assumed human players would always get rid of normal weapons in favour of the most highly enchanted items they could find. Truly, the game could be made so much more challenging if even a couple mages thought about using mantle instead of the (in my opinion) ridiculously overrated PFMW, which is really more of a strong spell against monsters rather than weapon/spell wielding humanoid enemies, at least in the early stages of the game when +3 weapons are only available in two or three types. PFMW only really becomes terrifically strong after the opening chapters of BG2, when everything under the sun with a hard-on for killing you is enchanted in some way.
Yet even in ToB, when it seems logical that everything you might have would need to be enchanted, a sort of regression happens and mages drop like flies against a whirlwind of normal arrows.
There are a few specific vendors that sell a limited quantity of poison throwing daggers with can make mages like Sion, who for all their high level bluster and massive protection spells, sputter and conniption in writhing agony while you laugh at them dropping after two rounds because they invested their round-action in PFMW and horrid wilting instead of something more practical.
The creatures that I found most impacted by SCS are Illithids, Spirit Trolls, and Genies. Ballistic missile from certain mindflayers are complete game changers, and Greater Command + Unholy Blight + Strength drain + freaking undispellable Improved Invisibility + Flame strike (?) makes Spirit trolls into a nightmare unless you're soloing or using a custom party. That area in Nalia's keep with 2 or 3 spirit trolls? Bloody massacre.
Genies you just have to be aware of their no-cast-time Flesh to Stone casts and have everyone involved with Protection From Petrification, but still bears mentioning.
Things that can hit you VERY hard.
Trolls (spirit or otherwise), Golums, and fully armoured, potion downing fighters.
They are the only ones that can do significant damage to my skeleton armies (and armies it is when you have high level cleric/mage). Mages, once they have used the death spells up, what else can they do to Skellies?
I think the thing SCS could do, (though I would probably not use it if it did, too much like hard work) would be to tone down just how effective Skeleton Warriors are, both how long they last and the immunity to magic.
The run I did I found I used virtually no other summons (except for HLA Planeteers, who wouldn't), even Mordikens Swords didn't measure up because of the duration of the spell.
Arbane's Sword most certainly isn't enough protection from beholders, this is true, but it keeps you in the fight and doing damage so that you can kill the beholders off before they kill you. As long as you're not paralyzed you have a fighting chance. The rest you can soak up with a smile and still come through in the end. Luckily the beholders haven't yet taken THAT from me. But I've only faced the unseeing eye beholders since re-installing.
As for prot. from missiles, I think it's appearance depends on what pre-buffing setting you install. I'm seeing it much more now after re-installing SCS. Mages are still favouring PFMW though, and saving Mantle for their second or third line of defence. I find it extremely rare to see it in an opening trigger.
(I) PMW is lower level; sometimes I'd rather not use up a top-level spell slot. (The "SCS plays fair" thing - I do keep to creatures' memorisation limits)
(ii) PMW at least protects you from nasty effect-on-hit weapons, which (poisoned daggers notwithstanding) are nearly all magical. On the other hand, if you use Mantle and it turns out your enemy has a +4 weapon, it's useless.
- Prot vs normal missiles becomes prot vs normal weapons
- Prot vs normal weapons becomes prot vs 0/+1
- pfmw becomes prot vs 0/+1/+2
- mantle 0/+1/+2/+3
- imp mantle 0/+1/+2/+3/+4
- abs immunity all.
And have more breach like spells that take them down tier based....
But i guess people are too used to the current way of playing.
SCS also changes SoD a little but. I have noticed several battles - the Spider Cave is the most famous here - where the "improved call for help" triggered nearby enemy groups that did NOT joined the battle when playing without SCS. The rest seems to be quite similar or remains the same.
Wondering if I should hold off Spell revisions as might be too much to digest with everything...Great input too @DavidW - I'll put together my mod list soon and start this first of many SCS runs!
I found this old thread of an install order with BP and SCS that I liked - would this work with SOD or any know of these mods not working together currently...
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/bookmark/30650/KQBE423HN74R?Target=discussion/30650/mods-install-list-ascension-seems-to-work