I believe SCS contains both games in it's program, but it will skip all the components for one game or the other depending on where you install it. Just in case anyone else wonders about this when installing SCS, that's what should let you know.
@namarie Yes, Ascension works with SCS and with BG2EE. Follow the advice here.
But I have to warn you that Ascension offers a huge improvement in difficulty for ToB fights. As @semiticgodsaid, "the fights in Ascension aren't necessarily the most difficult out of the saga--there are other challenging lower-level fights in the BG games--but Ascension is more than just a bonus layer of difficulty on top of SCS. Ascension also grants outrageous new powers and immunities to all kinds of ToB enemies, and the final battle with Melissan is an immensely complicated, high-pressure ordeal. It's a bit like the Tactics fight with Irenicus in Hell."
IMO the final battle with Ascension is the hardest fight in the whole game, since in low levels BG1 you can cheese your way to level 6 even before going to the Nashkel Mines and stuff like that. When you face Ascension Melissan, you have all the items, spells and experience available through the 3 (or for if you played SoD) games, and the battle is still hard. The only difference is: you technichally can set up traps in that battle which makes it way easier than low level ambushes (The two Amazons/Bounty Hunters ambushes in BG1 are brutal if you're not expecting them, since you can't cheese 'em as much).
Edit: I remember old Hell Irenicus being really hard but IMO Ascension Melissan Irenicus wiped my party way harder (especially with heavy melee comps since he spammed Teleport Field).
Tactics Irenicus isn't that hard if you can deal with his absurd cheapness, like him stealing your items out of the blue or disabling everyone to duel Charname without any real justification. Basically the fight boils down to out-cheese him, but that's something you can say for every single Tactics encounter.
Ascension Melissan is just really damn strong and the stuff she does isn't really far-fetched considered who she is and the nature of the battlefield. You can lose party members but not all of them (unlike against Irenicus) and for justifiable reasons. No one steals the items you wear just like that. And you still have to use everything you accumulated throughout the entire game to win. It's very satisfying to finish Ascension, it makes you feel like you earned that goddamn throne.
On the opposite end of the spectrum you have Melanthium, the video game incarnation of bullshit.
For some reason I find the first stage of Ascension-Melissan a lot harder than the all out brawl against the Five. Something about losing Imoen + having a caster-heavy party + Bodhi hitting the whole party with an Insect Plague-equivalent spell at the start of the battle makes the first fight more frustrating than the last.
For some reason I find the first stage of Ascension-Melissan a lot harder than the all out brawl against the Five. Something about losing Imoen + having a caster-heavy party + Bodhi hitting the whole party with an Insect Plague-equivalent spell at the start of the battle makes the first fight more frustrating than the last.
Don't you have somebody who can wield the Runehammer/MoD? If so, Bodhi shouldn't be a big deal. As for Imoen, put her into an Otiluke's Sphere. Spares you a lot of trouble. You might want to consider lowering her MR before, but usually it should work within 3 attempts as long as the RNGesus doesn't hate you.
In the EE Otiluke's now only takes effect on a failed saving throw (whether cast on friend or foe), so you may struggle to get it to take effect - I'm not quite sure why Beamdog felt they needed to nerf the spell.
@namarie Yes, Ascension works with SCS and with BG2EE. Follow the advice here.
But I have to warn you that Ascension offers a huge improvement in difficulty for ToB fights. As @semiticgodsaid, "the fights in Ascension aren't necessarily the most difficult out of the saga--there are other challenging lower-level fights in the BG games--but Ascension is more than just a bonus layer of difficulty on top of SCS. Ascension also grants outrageous new powers and immunities to all kinds of ToB enemies, and the final battle with Melissan is an immensely complicated, high-pressure ordeal. It's a bit like the Tactics fight with Irenicus in Hell."
A lot of the difficulty increases in Ascension are optional however. And its nearly possible to win the final battle with the bonus powers you get for that fight alone.
@namarie Yes, Ascension works with SCS and with BG2EE. Follow the advice here.
But I have to warn you that Ascension offers a huge improvement in difficulty for ToB fights. As @semiticgodsaid, "the fights in Ascension aren't necessarily the most difficult out of the saga--there are other challenging lower-level fights in the BG games--but Ascension is more than just a bonus layer of difficulty on top of SCS. Ascension also grants outrageous new powers and immunities to all kinds of ToB enemies, and the final battle with Melissan is an immensely complicated, high-pressure ordeal. It's a bit like the Tactics fight with Irenicus in Hell."
Nice, I'll read through the thread as soon as I can. Thanks for linking it!
I want to use Ascension mostly because the idea of fighting the Five (and possibly convince Balthazar to aid me) is just too cool to pass up (that, and I'm curious about some of the Ascension epilogues). If necessary I have no problem foregoing any optional component of the Ascension other than those two.
But... But WHAT DO YOU MEAN LOSING IMOEN??? Without too much spoiler, can this be avoided at all? She's too important to my charname
@namarie , I felt repetitive the use of melf's minute meteors between casting rounds. Also, I remember SoA mages having different spell selections (if you remember lavok, warden, tolgerias and conster their offensive arsenal was quite different from each other.) Last time I played smarter mages it felt that they would always use the most effective and powerful spell there was. Challenging yes, but I did feel it was repetitive.
@namarie , I felt repetitive the use of melf's minute meteors between casting rounds. Also, I remember SoA mages having different spell selections (if you remember lavok, warden, tolgerias and conster their offensive arsenal was quite different from each other.) Last time I played smarter mages it felt that they would always use the most effective and powerful spell there was. Challenging yes, but I did feel it was repetitive.
Yes, SCS spellcasters all use roughly the same spells with very little deviation. They're also overwhelmingly defensive and fight as if they were alone, regardless of their party composition. When you first play with Smarter Mages it seems incredibly difficult but when you're used to it, this excessive focus on defensive spells can make them sometimes easier than vanilla, as long as you're not really underlevelled.
I argued with DavidW about it on G3 a few years ago and he said it's because customizing AI according to enemy formation would take forever to test and basically kill his enjoyment of the game (something really understandable).
But he made SSL public and coding AI with it is a lot easier than writing the .baf from scratch so making a SCS add-on to spice up things is possible. The problem is finding the motivation to start such a tedious task.
@namarie , I felt repetitive the use of melf's minute meteors between casting rounds. Also, I remember SoA mages having different spell selections (if you remember lavok, warden, tolgerias and conster their offensive arsenal was quite different from each other.) Last time I played smarter mages it felt that they would always use the most effective and powerful spell there was. Challenging yes, but I did feel it was repetitive.
Yes, SCS spellcasters all use roughly the same spells with very little deviation. They're also overwhelmingly defensive and fight as if they were alone, regardless of their party composition. When you first play with Smarter Mages it seems incredibly difficult but when you're used to it, this excessive focus on defensive spells can make them sometimes easier than vanilla, as long as you're not really underlevelled.
I argued with DavidW about it on G3 a few years ago and he said it's because customizing AI according to enemy formation would take forever to test and basically kill his enjoyment of the game (something really understandable).
But he made SSL public and coding AI with it is a lot easier than writing the .baf from scratch so making a SCS add-on to spice up things is possible. The problem is finding the motivation to start such a tedious task.
I would gladly pay $20 for a DLC (Beamdog or fan-made) that does nothing but this kind of AI improvement.
@Kurona and some of them are indeed deliceous... I love them, research on them, and often use them in my recipes. As the Tactics enemies use so often plain cheating, with their reallyforcespell scripts, abilities that come from nowhere, double familiars that cast like mages, someone is even more entitled in using cheese in that environment. But somehow I find even more satisfying to beat them without cheese, as the whole mod is intended as a cheese vs cheese, or cheat vs cheese thing, but there are ways to beat it using only plain fair not cheesy tactics. Weimer seems to force you into use cheese, avoid cheese in his mod imo is the ultimate cheese
In the past (BGT / tutu times) i ran into combinations of these two mods that made the final parts of ToB ultimately frustrating to me. Beginning parts in ToB were still okay (Gromnir, Yaga Sura, etc.). But it began about when meeting Draconis, and then Abazigal, Sendai and on were just a chore, no fun anymore. I think I stopped playing those runs and never saw the final battle, but i assume it would have been just too hard as well. I'm being experienced with the game and mechanics and all, and i want the game to be a challenge to me after so many runs, but not wanting to play the game as a math project optimising every tiny bit to meet overpowered challanges ... and those encounters fell somewhat in this category to me.
So is there a way of finetuning to combine SCS and Ascension in a way it's a nice challenge for an experienced player without being just insanity, or are the both not meant to be played together?
(I'm not sure whether back then i had installed Oversight Mod as well, with their improved Sendai, but it might be).
Oversight Improved Sendai is cheese galore (ranged Harm?! Ya, say more....) so I never use that. I've posted a link to Ascension final battle (this install has aTweaks as well but the truth is - most of the demons in Ascension are as per SCS), so you can check it out and see if it suits your fancy. I have no mage in that party, two barbarians, archer and Helm priest; and I fight both Bodhi and Balthazar (
conviniently enough Balthazar has insane immunities but isn't immune to Sleep so an elemental knocks him down instantly).
Update: Just finished installing EET (took me a while to uninstall some of the mods from BG1 and then re-install them after EET), now in the process of installing Ascension (Not BP-Ascension, beta 1.5 version, since EET doesn't seem compatible with BP-Ascension. Hopefully this won't break anything). I decided to install the core component of Ascension with Tougher Abazigal (anything D&D is better with more dragons! ...Well sort of) and Tougher Demogorgon (Because he's Demogorgon). I know I WILL PROBABLY REGRET THIS but I can't resist.
Now moving on to aTweaks (Yes I know I'm going down a rabbit hole..)
so still tryin to figure out some of the differences between SCS and TActics but seems life tactics is more cheese....especially having items stolen not a fan of as contemplating SCS with ascension soon but wondered about tactics
Tactics is not more cheese, is plain cheating by almost every enemy (few of them don't do it). Is solving impossible situations, that the first time you find them make you scream "IS THE MODDER CRAZY?". Usually many reloads are needed the first time, then you start to learn how to beat it with cheese. Finally you can learn how to beat it without cheese, the funniest part. Is not for everyone, but if someone like challenge at least a tactics run is an interesting experience.
@brunardo On top of what @gorgonzola said, note that Tactics only modify certain specific encounters (and adds a few as well) while SCS performs global changes to the AI of every enemy in the game. Tactics works in a binary fashion: either a very hard encounter or the vanilla game.
Another thing I believe that should be chamged in SCS is that even non-intelligent creatures have smart targeting - I don't think it makes sense that wolves and ankhegs know that one character is more vulnerable than the other , and I won't take "but they're hunters" for an answer because we're talking about the heat of the battle, not some predatory behavior.
Another thing I believe that should be chamged in SCS is that even non-intelligent creatures have smart targeting - I don't think it makes sense that wolves and ankhegs know that one character is more vulnerable than the other , and I won't take "but they're hunters" for an answer because we're talking about the heat of the battle, not some predatory behavior.
SCS is designed such that non-intelligent creatures don't have smart targeting. Where it differs from you is in the definition of what is intelligent. Personally I would indeed argue that wolves can distinguish hurt, aged or otherwise vulnerable creatures in the heat of battle and can deliberately select such creatures for attack.
@Grond0 , spotting the vulnerable creature and attacking is one thing - fighting the armored guy and noticing that a guy wearing leather armor is approaching and suddenly change targets doesn't sound like the right combat behaviour for a dire wolf or skeleton.
Comments
But I have to warn you that Ascension offers a huge improvement in difficulty for ToB fights. As @semiticgod said, "the fights in Ascension aren't necessarily the most difficult out of the saga--there are other challenging lower-level fights in the BG games--but Ascension is more than just a bonus layer of difficulty on top of SCS. Ascension also grants outrageous new powers and immunities to all kinds of ToB enemies, and the final battle with Melissan is an immensely complicated, high-pressure ordeal. It's a bit like the Tactics fight with Irenicus in Hell."
Edit: I remember old Hell Irenicus being really hard but IMO Ascension Melissan Irenicus wiped my party way harder (especially with heavy melee comps since he spammed Teleport Field).
Ascension Melissan is just really damn strong and the stuff she does isn't really far-fetched considered who she is and the nature of the battlefield. You can lose party members but not all of them (unlike against Irenicus) and for justifiable reasons. No one steals the items you wear just like that. And you still have to use everything you accumulated throughout the entire game to win. It's very satisfying to finish Ascension, it makes you feel like you earned that goddamn throne.
On the opposite end of the spectrum you have Melanthium, the video game incarnation of bullshit.
As for Imoen, put her into an Otiluke's Sphere. Spares you a lot of trouble. You might want to consider lowering her MR before, but usually it should work within 3 attempts as long as the RNGesus doesn't hate you.
I want to use Ascension mostly because the idea of fighting the Five (and possibly convince Balthazar to aid me) is just too cool to pass up (that, and I'm curious about some of the Ascension epilogues). If necessary I have no problem foregoing any optional component of the Ascension other than those two.
But... But WHAT DO YOU MEAN LOSING IMOEN??? Without too much spoiler, can this be avoided at all? She's too important to my charname
Unless you kill her during that part, in which case she will not come back.
It's unavoidable.
Challenging yes, but I did feel it was repetitive.
I argued with DavidW about it on G3 a few years ago and he said it's because customizing AI according to enemy formation would take forever to test and basically kill his enjoyment of the game (something really understandable).
But he made SSL public and coding AI with it is a lot easier than writing the .baf from scratch so making a SCS add-on to spice up things is possible. The problem is finding the motivation to start such a tedious task.
I love them, research on them, and often use them in my recipes.
As the Tactics enemies use so often plain cheating, with their reallyforcespell scripts, abilities that come from nowhere, double familiars that cast like mages, someone is even more entitled in using cheese in that environment.
But somehow I find even more satisfying to beat them without cheese, as the whole mod is intended as a cheese vs cheese, or cheat vs cheese thing, but there are ways to beat it using only plain fair not cheesy tactics. Weimer seems to force you into use cheese, avoid cheese in his mod imo is the ultimate cheese
In the past (BGT / tutu times) i ran into combinations of these two mods that made the final parts of ToB ultimately frustrating to me. Beginning parts in ToB were still okay (Gromnir, Yaga Sura, etc.). But it began about when meeting Draconis, and then Abazigal, Sendai and on were just a chore, no fun anymore. I think I stopped playing those runs and never saw the final battle, but i assume it would have been just too hard as well.
I'm being experienced with the game and mechanics and all, and i want the game to be a challenge to me after so many runs, but not wanting to play the game as a math project optimising every tiny bit to meet overpowered challanges ... and those encounters fell somewhat in this category to me.
So is there a way of finetuning to combine SCS and Ascension in a way it's a nice challenge for an experienced player without being just insanity, or are the both not meant to be played together?
(I'm not sure whether back then i had installed Oversight Mod as well, with their improved Sendai, but it might be).
Just finished installing EET (took me a while to uninstall some of the mods from BG1 and then re-install them after EET), now in the process of installing Ascension (Not BP-Ascension, beta 1.5 version, since EET doesn't seem compatible with BP-Ascension. Hopefully this won't break anything).
I decided to install the core component of Ascension with Tougher Abazigal (anything D&D is better with more dragons! ...Well sort of) and Tougher Demogorgon (Because he's Demogorgon). I know I WILL PROBABLY REGRET THIS but I can't resist.
Now moving on to aTweaks (Yes I know I'm going down a rabbit hole..)
Is solving impossible situations, that the first time you find them make you scream "IS THE MODDER CRAZY?". Usually many reloads are needed the first time, then you start to learn how to beat it with cheese.
Finally you can learn how to beat it without cheese, the funniest part.
Is not for everyone, but if someone like challenge at least a tactics run is an interesting experience.