@DJKajuru it's hard to argue about skeletons since assumptions need to be made about just how magic has animated them. With wolves though I do think they have the ability to fight in pretty sophisticated ways - there's lot of research on that available, but see a very short introduction here: http://www.wolfandwildlifestudies.com/learningsets.php.
My personal concern over SCS behaviour is not so much picking out the weak link in melee, but the way that spell-casters are automatically targeted. That implies that enemies are not just adapting within battles, but starting battles with a clear understanding of the capabilities of their foes. Even here though you can hypothesise that animals such as wolves have learned the threat from casters over a long period and made a cultural adaptation to this ...
As I told recently in an other topic the goal is not to make enemies think better, any way with the engine limitations it will always be a pale imitation of a real AI, applied on a fiction environment that is only a pale imitation of a "real" credible fiction world. The goal is to make yourself think better, avoiding very cheap tactics that in vanilla abuse of the very weak AI targeting system. The real goal is avoid that your mages do whatever they want as enemies are targeting expendable summoned cannon fodder or tanks with enough AC and HP to survive, to avoid that all the enemies concentrate their fire on a fully protected tank just because you moved him in just little earlier than the rest of the party, and so on. A better Kangaxx don't target better than in vanilla because he is supposed to be a smart demilich and not a stupid skeleton, he does it to avoid the chance to protect one of the early game NPCs with a certain scroll that make him immune to imprisonment, while the rest of the party kills him with MMM, Ryn and Everard, 15 min after chateau Irenicus.
SCS is a difficulty enhancer, not a realism enhancer, don't be misleaded bu the fact that better targeting also increase somehow the realism, this is only a collateral effect, not the main goal. And the main goal has every time precedence, even if sometimes there is a loose in realism.
If your spellcaster is really in the back, far enough from your tank, then SCS melee enemies will not target them, because IE scripting is not really sophisticated enough to do more than "target nearest" (at least with melee, ranged attacks have more leeway). They certainly will attempt to do so, but generally speaking attempts to switch towards distant targets can't be too frequent or prolonged or else you get the behavior of the early versions of Quest Pack: enemies ignore everything and chase your lowest HP character across the map while you pelt them with arrows in total impunity.
DavidW also entertained the idea to make spellcasters try and learn your equipment immunities instead of immediately knowing everything about your gear but realized it was really too prohibitive in terms of code length to be feasible (even in the more performant EE SCS scripts can still lag a bit occasionally, now imagine if they were twice or thrice longer).
Anyways that's what I gathered from DavidW comments on the subject, maybe @Ardanis might give more insight and correct my possible mistakes/misunderstandings.
No, that's pretty accurate. Melee enemies only care about what's within an arm's reach, otherwise there may be... quite suboptimal behavior, to put it mildly.
I think the gradual recognition of immunities did make into SCS, however, as I recall seeing relevant pieces in its source files. Although it's been a few years ago, so maybe it got cut later..?
Just wanted to chime in here with two screenshots. What used to be two very easy encounters turned quite deadly thanks to SCS.
Some Myconids in the Druid Grove area. Their Confusion ability took Cernd, Anomen, and eventually my PC out of commission. With the healers out and my PC swarmed, the only thing that saved me was a quick Invisibility spell cast by Neera. With some careful focus fire I was able to form a wall between the angry mushrooms and those closest to death...
Just a couple shadow druids chilling out front, easy peasy right? Well that crit that Yoshi took to the face would say otherwise...This screenshot is after a bit of patching up.
You can combine SCS and Tactics, choosing only several components from Tactics. For example, I use only final Hell battle from Tactics in my full SCS set up. Readme for Tactics actually describe which Tactics component should go after which SCS component, and vice versa.
Does anyone know what the hell these Yuan-Ti Mages are using against me in Spellhold? They hit me with a permanent stun, only reversible with a Stone to Flesh spell.
They have cast Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Mestil's Acid Sheath, and Prismatic somethingsomething....I'm away from my computer but it's not Prismatic Spray, it's some kind of shield. Either way I've had a couple characters, my PC included, be affected by this perma-stun. Heal, Lesser/Greater Restoration, Break Enchantmenr, resting...nothing breaks it except Stone to Flesh. Maybe death but I haven't tried killing off my party lol.
EDIT: I think their shield might be called Prismatic Mantle, but I could be remembering that incorrectly.
Death will cure it, yes. It's the new petrification (it's a Hold,not a Stun actually:) ). Try Break Enchantment (it works on my install; I think @Demivrgvs included this in newest SR build). Oh, and the "prismatic" is Prismatic Sphere. If you think Fireshield and Mesthil's are bad, Prismatic Sphere is bad times ten. Don't attack it, ever. Either Breach or Dispel will remove it; or wait it out. It will be more balanced in the next release, for now it's pretty much a death sentence for melee attackers.
I don't know if you've read this but I mention "Always carry a Stone to Flesh scroll with you" for a reason.:)
@Aasim thank you! That's very helpful information. What exactly does Prismatic Sphere do to my melee attackers? I learned very quickly it's bad news lol but I'm curious what the effects are.
Also I called it a stun because that's the icon it puts on my portrait. I thought I tried Break Enchantment but it might've been something else.
@Aasim thank you! That's very helpful information. What exactly does Prismatic Sphere do to my melee attackers? I learned very quickly it's bad news lol but I'm curious what the effects are.
Also I called it a stun because that's the icon it puts on my portrait. I thought I tried Break Enchantment but it might've been something else.
Prismatic Sphere is kind of chaotic - you never know what you're gonna get - but it will be bad. Possible outcomes: - 28% chance 10d6 fire damage, save vs breath at -4 for half - 28% chance for 10d6 acid damage, save vs breath at -4 for half - 28% chance for 10d6 electric damage, save vs breath at -4 for half - - 28% chance for 20 poison damage, no save - 28% chance for posion that will take away 100% of you hp if not healed, save vs death at -4 to avoid - 28% for stun and feeblemind, but these have no duration. I don't know if this is a bug or not. - 28% to get mazed, save vs spells at -4 to avoid - 100% chance to get blinded for 5 rounds, no save
As you can see, these probabilites add up to more than 100; which means you're likely to get hit by more than one.
Strange about stun icon. If your PC's color turned brownish, then it's petrification, but it should be using Held icon. Be that as it may - it's the same effect basically.
Prismatic Mantle applies the same effects as Prismatic Spray, I believe, which means attacking a mage protected by it from close range is basically suicidal unless you have truly stupendous saving throws or a LOT of immunities.
Damn that's deadly. Also explains the massive amounts of fire, poison and/or acid damage I was taking. I was like "Uh, I don't think Mestil's Acid Sheath does THAT much..."
Thanks @JuliusBorisov and good to know I can customize what to use from tactics as afraid my playthrough will get buggy if I mix too much...curious on adding final hell battle but maybe I should just try it.
@Aasim the above comments got me worried dealing with these improved mages and crazy prismatic defenses...is this all legit spells on improved mages or just made up cheese??
Well, since you know what it does, it's all avoidable, yes? The effects will only trigger on melee attacks, so you can always use arrows.....which reminds me; every decent mage should actually have Pro Missiles buff anyway... The spell was inspired by PnP Prismatic Wall.
It's actually a substitute for Mantle - given Mantle-type spells are very lame in vanilla game Demi came up with this. Also, note that this spell was made on "old" engine. With new EE goodies; probably something much sweeter can be done; Enhanced Edition engine is kinda "modders heaven". One other thing, relatively unknown for SR players - Chaotic Commands protect against Stun in vanilla game. With SR, it protects against PW:Stun and psionic attacks. It does not stop other stun sources (like the one on Prismatic Sphere or Celestial Fury); Free Action will however.
So followed the advice given here about SCS, (consider it a different way of increasing difficulty rather than just an add on to being hit harder), instead of kind of "insane plus".
Well, just managed to emerge from Chateaux Irenicus. My current feelings are, "Fasten your seatbelts, this is going to be a bumpy ride".
I read alot of good things about it and do want to have a new experience after multiple playthroughs with really no mods, Thanks @Pteran and will add to my mod list when I start!
Good intel @Aasim as did not know and read about spell revisions mod awhile back...guess it is recommended I should use it or not use it with SCS?
Revisions will work fine as a standalone; I personally feel as if the game itself doesn't work good as a standalone so I use SCS. If you do choose Revisions + SCS, use this SCS version instead of your regular one for an improved experience.
Good intel @Aasim as did not know and read about spell revisions mod awhile back...guess it is recommended I should use it or not use it with SCS?
Revisions will work fine as a standalone; I personally feel as if the game itself doesn't work good as a standalone so I use SCS. If you do choose Revisions + SCS, use this SCS version instead of your regular one for an improved experience.
Oh I've never seen that! I'll have to use that version the next go-around.
Two quick questions that I think I already know the answers to: - If an enemy mage uses Shadow Door and mazes my PC while soloing, it's game over correct? - If I accidentally get perma-stunned/held by something like Prismatic Sphere, same deal right?
I ask because I might try another solo no-reload run after this current game ends, and there are some nasty new tricks I need to watch out for. Shadow Door would be especially common as I've seen quite a few enemy mages engage in melee just to Shadow Door my guys...then they run out and keep blasting away.
Two quick questions that I think I already know the answers to: - If an enemy mage uses Shadow Door and mazes my PC while soloing, it's game over correct? - If I accidentally get perma-stunned/held by something like Prismatic Sphere, same deal right?
Shadow door will kill soloers on a failed save, yes. Note that True Seeing prevents that effect. If you get perma-stunned by anything you're not dead per se, but may as well restart - since if you're soloing nobody can remove the effect from you.
P.S.
Fwiw, I don't think SR+SCS is viable for a solo no-reload. You may get to ToB with some strange twist of luck, and there you will die.
Fwiw, I don't think SR+SCS is viable for a solo no-reload. You may get to ToB with some strange twist of luck, and there you will die.
@Aasim It's viable if I just keep reinstalling until they don't have Shadow Door I wonder if magic resistance affects it at all. Or is it solely based upon saving throws? I may just make it a duo run with a romance to play it safe =/
@semiticgod I see your Insightful mark there. Do you accept his challenge? lol
I just loaded up BG1 to check what version I had installed, and it's been so long since I played that it's on v2.1....I'd update it for this eventual trilogy run, but I may hold off if v2.4 is coming out soon. *cough*@JuliusBorisov*cough*
@Pteran: I'm usually not fond of solo runs. The gameplay is less diverse with only one class and kit. Only a few solo runs have been very interesting to me. Also, they scale horribly, starting out overly difficult, becoming tremendously easy, and then becoming overly difficult again.
I've had difficulty installing anything new on my game. I love SR and IR but have been unable to install it with SCS. I might require another transplant from another forumite's install to get it to work.
Comments
My personal concern over SCS behaviour is not so much picking out the weak link in melee, but the way that spell-casters are automatically targeted. That implies that enemies are not just adapting within battles, but starting battles with a clear understanding of the capabilities of their foes. Even here though you can hypothesise that animals such as wolves have learned the threat from casters over a long period and made a cultural adaptation to this ...
The goal is to make yourself think better, avoiding very cheap tactics that in vanilla abuse of the very weak AI targeting system.
The real goal is avoid that your mages do whatever they want as enemies are targeting expendable summoned cannon fodder or tanks with enough AC and HP to survive, to avoid that all the enemies concentrate their fire on a fully protected tank just because you moved him in just little earlier than the rest of the party, and so on.
A better Kangaxx don't target better than in vanilla because he is supposed to be a smart demilich and not a stupid skeleton, he does it to avoid the chance to protect one of the early game NPCs with a certain scroll that make him immune to imprisonment, while the rest of the party kills him with MMM, Ryn and Everard, 15 min after chateau Irenicus.
SCS is a difficulty enhancer, not a realism enhancer, don't be misleaded bu the fact that better targeting also increase somehow the realism, this is only a collateral effect, not the main goal. And the main goal has every time precedence, even if sometimes there is a loose in realism.
DavidW also entertained the idea to make spellcasters try and learn your equipment immunities instead of immediately knowing everything about your gear but realized it was really too prohibitive in terms of code length to be feasible (even in the more performant EE SCS scripts can still lag a bit occasionally, now imagine if they were twice or thrice longer).
Anyways that's what I gathered from DavidW comments on the subject, maybe @Ardanis might give more insight and correct my possible mistakes/misunderstandings.
I think the gradual recognition of immunities did make into SCS, however, as I recall seeing relevant pieces in its source files. Although it's been a few years ago, so maybe it got cut later..?
Some Myconids in the Druid Grove area. Their Confusion ability took Cernd, Anomen, and eventually my PC out of commission. With the healers out and my PC swarmed, the only thing that saved me was a quick Invisibility spell cast by Neera. With some careful focus fire I was able to form a wall between the angry mushrooms and those closest to death...
Just a couple shadow druids chilling out front, easy peasy right? Well that crit that Yoshi took to the face would say otherwise...This screenshot is after a bit of patching up.
They have cast Stoneskin, Fire Shield, Mestil's Acid Sheath, and Prismatic somethingsomething....I'm away from my computer but it's not Prismatic Spray, it's some kind of shield. Either way I've had a couple characters, my PC included, be affected by this perma-stun. Heal, Lesser/Greater Restoration, Break Enchantmenr, resting...nothing breaks it except Stone to Flesh. Maybe death but I haven't tried killing off my party lol.
EDIT: I think their shield might be called Prismatic Mantle, but I could be remembering that incorrectly.
Oh, and the "prismatic" is Prismatic Sphere. If you think Fireshield and Mesthil's are bad, Prismatic Sphere is bad times ten. Don't attack it, ever. Either Breach or Dispel will remove it; or wait it out. It will be more balanced in the next release, for now it's pretty much a death sentence for melee attackers.
I don't know if you've read this but I mention "Always carry a Stone to Flesh scroll with you" for a reason.:)
Also I called it a stun because that's the icon it puts on my portrait. I thought I tried Break Enchantment but it might've been something else.
Possible outcomes:
- 28% chance 10d6 fire damage, save vs breath at -4 for half
- 28% chance for 10d6 acid damage, save vs breath at -4 for half
- 28% chance for 10d6 electric damage, save vs breath at -4 for half
- - 28% chance for 20 poison damage, no save
- 28% chance for posion that will take away 100% of you hp if not healed, save vs death at -4 to avoid
- 28% for stun and feeblemind, but these have no duration. I don't know if this is a bug or not.
- 28% to get mazed, save vs spells at -4 to avoid
- 100% chance to get blinded for 5 rounds, no save
As you can see, these probabilites add up to more than 100; which means you're likely to get hit by more than one.
Strange about stun icon. If your PC's color turned brownish, then it's petrification, but it should be using Held icon. Be that as it may - it's the same effect basically.
In short, don't attack mages under it.
The spell was inspired by PnP Prismatic Wall.
It's actually a substitute for Mantle - given Mantle-type spells are very lame in vanilla game Demi came up with this.
Also, note that this spell was made on "old" engine. With new EE goodies; probably something much sweeter can be done; Enhanced Edition engine is kinda "modders heaven".
One other thing, relatively unknown for SR players - Chaotic Commands protect against Stun in vanilla game. With SR, it protects against PW:Stun and psionic attacks. It does not stop other stun sources (like the one on Prismatic Sphere or Celestial Fury); Free Action will however.
Well, just managed to emerge from Chateaux Irenicus.
My current feelings are,
"Fasten your seatbelts, this is going to be a bumpy ride".
To quote Kalah, "Now the circus truly begins!"
If you do choose Revisions + SCS, use this SCS version instead of your regular one for an improved experience.
Two quick questions that I think I already know the answers to:
- If an enemy mage uses Shadow Door and mazes my PC while soloing, it's game over correct?
- If I accidentally get perma-stunned/held by something like Prismatic Sphere, same deal right?
I ask because I might try another solo no-reload run after this current game ends, and there are some nasty new tricks I need to watch out for. Shadow Door would be especially common as I've seen quite a few enemy mages engage in melee just to Shadow Door my guys...then they run out and keep blasting away.
If you get perma-stunned by anything you're not dead per se, but may as well restart - since if you're soloing nobody can remove the effect from you.
P.S.
Fwiw, I don't think SR+SCS is viable for a solo no-reload. You may get to ToB with some strange twist of luck, and there you will die.
@Aasim It's viable if I just keep reinstalling until they don't have Shadow Door
@semiticgod I see your Insightful mark there. Do you accept his challenge? lol
I just loaded up BG1 to check what version I had installed, and it's been so long since I played that it's on v2.1....I'd update it for this eventual trilogy run, but I may hold off if v2.4 is coming out soon. *cough* @JuliusBorisov *cough*
I've had difficulty installing anything new on my game. I love SR and IR but have been unable to install it with SCS. I might require another transplant from another forumite's install to get it to work.