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Sling of Everard & Tansheron's Bow

Hey dudes.

I recently went and did a little shopping for my characters, and bought the Sling of Everard for Neera, and Tansheron's Bow for Nalia (who will be stripped to her robes and left in the middle of nowhere when Imoen becomes available...).

My question is, how exactly do these weapons work? The Sling claims to be a +5 weapon that shoots bullets when no bullets are attached, and the bow has the same effect, except it's +3. Currently, Neera has Arla's Dragonbane +3, and Nalia has a simple shortbow +2, but when I go to equip their new weapons, which I thought would be better for them, their damage and THAC0 ratings decrease. Is there something I'm missing? Perhaps I just don't understand the mechanics properly?

Thanks dudes.

«1

Comments

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,021
    I'm just guessing here since I'm not going into the game to test this, but I'd assume it's because of ranged weapon + ammunition bonuses.

    Ranged weapons add the total bonus from weapon and ammunition - so, for example:

    Arla's Dragonbane and Bullet +2 = +5 THAC0 and 1d4+6 damage in total.

    Shortbow +2 and Arrow +2 = +4 THAC0 and 1d6 damage.

    Sling of Everard = +5 THAC0 and 1d4+2 damage

    Tansheron's Bow = +3 THAC0 and 1d6 damage.

    Basically, if you have an enchanted launcher with enchanted ammo, the total bonuses will probably be greater than that of a launcher with infinite ammo.

    OrlonKronsteenThacoBellJuliusBorisovsemiticgod
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    There used to be a bug where you could use infinite-ammo launchers and STILL equip regular ammunition for them to shoot, resulting in stacking bonuses. I'm not sure whether it's fixed by now on the EE (I personally have been running with mods that fix it for many years now).

    One of the biggest draws of infinite-ammo launchers is the fact that they are so highly enchanted. Unlike regular launchers, which take the to-hit enchantment level from the AMMUNITION, infinite-ammo launchers will in fact use the WEAPON'S enchantment level.

    For example, if you're using a Shortbow+2 and with Arrows+1, the enchantment level will be that of the arrows, i.e. +1 - you will NOT be able to hit enemies requiring +2 weapons or better to hit even though the launcher is a +2 enchanted weapon. Tansheron's Bow, on the other hand, will always hit as a +3 weapon - and considering the fact that there are no +3 arrows in BG2 at all until ToB (or WK), this can be quite relevant.
    Sling of Everard goes even further, being +5, as there is in fact NO ammunition AT ALL in the entire series that goes beyond +3 enchantment level (Black Pits maybe, idk). That means you will never be able to hit enemies requiring +4 or better without using a special launcher (Firetooth for example also has +4/+5). Granted, that is only a very small handful of bosses, but it's something to keep in mind.

    And lastly, there is the obvious convenience advantage of simply not needing to carry/use up ammo ^^

  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,021
    @Lord_Tansheron It's still there. I don't think it's a bug, the description for Tansheron's Bow saying "When no arrows are equipped" kinda suggests that you're supposed to be able to use any ammo you want.

    ThacoBell
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,087
    edited October 2016

    @Lord_Tansheron It's still there. I don't think it's a bug, the description for Tansheron's Bow saying "When no arrows are equipped" kinda suggests that you're supposed to be able to use any ammo you want.

    That's not the bug. The bug is that if you DO use regular ammunition, you ALSO get the bonus from the phantom ammo - which doesn't make much sense.

    Among other things, this enables Firetooth to use regular unenchanted bolts but STILL deal fire damage, meaning it can pierce both Protection from Magic Weapons and Stoneskin and interrupt enemy mages.

  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 7,585

    @Lord_Tansheron It's still there. I don't think it's a bug, the description for Tansheron's Bow saying "When no arrows are equipped" kinda suggests that you're supposed to be able to use any ammo you want.

    That's not the bug. The bug is that if you DO use regular ammunition, you ALSO get the bonus from the phantom ammo - which doesn't make much sense.

    Among other things, this enables Firetooth to use regular unenchanted bolts but STILL deal fire damage, meaning it can pierce both Protection from Magic Weapons and Stoneskin and interrupt enemy mages.
    Again, pretty sure this is intended behavior.

    gorgonzolaThacoBellDreadKhan
  • Papa_LouPapa_Lou Member Posts: 264
    Interesting. So, if I understand correctly, I'd still be better off equipping them with the Sling of Everard and Tansheron's Bow, despite the damage rating dropping?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    In the originals Tansheron's Bow was good for high APR users to avoid to carry too many mundane weapons and to hit who needed high enchanted bullets, but the +1 apr one was the better choice, with the Gesen one the things are different and it should be evaluated for each case.
    The sling is stronger as equipping it with enchanted bullets you stack STR, weapon and bullet bonus.
    I suppose that it happens also in EE, but now I can not check.
    Imo for a sling the stacking is not a bug, they pay it with the low APR, for Firetooth Xbow and Gesen the stacking, bug or intended feature, was not the common behavior of the weapon in BG2.

    JuliusBorisovPapa_Lou
  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    Tresset wrote: »
    (Quote)
    Again, pretty sure this is intended behavior.
    From the Tansheron's description:
    "[...]
    Note: avoid equipping normal arrows on your character, else the bow will fire these instead of the phantom arrows."
    I understand if you use "normal arrows" or any ammo by quiver, you never will use phantom arrows... so how can you gain phantom arrows bonus adding to hit/damage without use them??
    That is because of I believe it's a bug, also for Gesen bow.

    Again I tried to create a new magic phantom arrows bow, and also in BG1:EE the behaviour is the same: if you use ammo from quiver, you gain phantom arrows + quiver arrows to damage.
    If you create a new crossbow with phantom quarrels, and you use quiver quarrels, you don't gain both quarrels damage.

    If it's an intended behaviour, you mean by default source code game, all "phantom arrows bows" behaviour is sum phantom arrows with quiver arrow each hit?
    I think this is no sense, but I may have missed some rule about P&P D&D.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    According to bg2 wiki the description talk about not enchanted arrows, not normal arrows, but it dont change the thing much.
    It can or can not be regarded as a bug and the player is not forced to use ammo if he dislikes the feature, i personally like it, in bg2 the ranged weapons are so nerfed compared to bg that stacking the damage help to keep the ranged approach viable without breaking the game.
    Without that i dont see a reason to go to bow instead of returning dagger, better dmg roll, str dmg boost and same apr, if not to deal with the very few enemies that require +4.

    Aerakar
  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    edited August 20
    Nerfed ranged weapons is another issue, we can't always motivate the "well acclaimed oddity" of these bows about double damage by quiver arrows + phantom arrows, telling the nerfed stuff respect BG1.

    This behaviour (bug) is present even on BG1:EE (with all non-nerfed bows), only nobody noticed that because of there is no "phantom arrows bow" about original story plot items.

    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    You are getting me wrong, i like the way returning bows are implemented because it keep the short bow competitive compared to mlee or other ranged weapons like returning dagger and sling without making it broken OP.
    Not for continuity with bg1 issues or other reasons.

    I agree that it can be regarded as a bug, but is a bug that i like, that brings more balance and variety to the game. And i point out how a player that does not like the present behavior is not affected at all as long as he dont equip those bows with arrows. So i dont see a reason to change the behavior.

    Aerakarleeux
  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    According to bg2 wiki the description talk about not enchanted arrows, not normal arrows, but it dont change the thing much.
    [...]
    I found text description here: https://baldursgate.fandom.com/wiki/Tansheron's_Bow
    Is there also a BG2 wiki?
    Text is very clear and can't be interpreted or create doubts, do you agree?

    Digression:
    I found out about a "side effect" on "Bows with infinite arrows" combined with a modded Quiver of Plenty (my new item creation) having more than one missile type arrow: in this case you let to choose by bow the "phantom" arrow of the bow itself, the 1st type of arrow from Quiver of Plenty, or the 2nd type of arrow from Quiver of Plenty.
    Please note if you don't have a bow with a "phantom" missile itself, you can't acces 2nd type of arrow inside an unlimited quiver.

    This could be a bug too, but I want to considerate it a side effect because of:
    a) currently doesn't exist a 'Quiver of Plenty' with multiple arrow types
    b) this behaviour can give you access to 2nd missile time from a "unlimited quiver" admiting could exist something similar, and this is the only way to use hypothetically a "more than one arrow type unlimited quiver"



    Now going back to Tansheron's Bow: or the text description is wrong or the behaviour effect is wrong.
    I would like don't go too far with house rules over P&P D&D (Pen 'n' Paper Dungeon and Dragons) rules, so if to combine phantom arrow with quiver arrow is a special effect of ONE bow I can tell you ok, but if it's hardcoded in source game and all these magical bows by default will be so, I don't like it.

    And since we finished talking about our tastes, de gustibus.... but we should leave the choice to players/modders to have even an "unlimited arrows bow" that doesn't combine phantom arrows with quiver arrows, or not?

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    The wiki you link is the one i am referring to.
    I have already agreed that it can be regarded as a bug and the item description is not consisent with the in game behavior, thing not so uncommon in the game.
    The modders are free to modify the game as they wish, if technically possible, and the players are already free to stack a physical arrow or not ie using the tugian bow with regular arrows and tugian to save ammo.

    In my experience Nalia with a sling or returning dagger is more effective then with the infiinite ammo bows without stacking a physical arrow, as long as some STR enhancment is active. If a fighter is used instead of her the gap is even wider as the STR bonus is applyed on more attacks each round.

    This, in game balance between weapons, is what matter for me, is the reason i am fine with the actual game behavior.

    And is only my humble preference and opinion, not a Truth every other player must agree with. :)

  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    edited August 20
    Slings set APR to 1, they're very slow weapons also if can use STR bonus to hit (thac0).
    All Bows set APR to 2, so they can give more damage per round respect the unlimited magical slings (Everard or Seeking).

    Only warrior weapon proficiencies and warrior levels (7 & 13) can add APR when it's pre-set by a weapon.

    So I think bow isn't so bad still without the odd Gesen/Tansheron behaviour.


    The only returning dagger good I think is Boomerang Dagger +2, that it adds (doesn't set) 1 to current APR and makes 1d4+2 damage (not 2d4+2 as description says) with STR bonus to hit.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    There is also the firetooth dagger, slightly better.
    Both sling and returning dagger use the str damage bonus, that increase the damage output as long as the user has enough str, and in bg2 there are plenty of items, potions and spells to rise str.
    For the sling has also to be told that both the sling and the bullet enchantment contribute to dmg.
    With a buffed aerie and an end game sling and bullet i get up to 28 dmg with a single hit, not clerics have less potential as can not rise str ranged to 25, but with a nalia or imoen i can get lets say 18 dmg, this is better then 1 apr more with a bow that has so lower damage each hit like even gesen not stacking physical arrows.
    For a fighter that has more then 1 apr to use a sling is even better.

    Are you sure about the boomerang doing 1d4 and not 2d4?
    Now i can not test it, as i can not test for the firetooth one as i am not at home, anyway they surely add the str bonus and share the apr of a bow.

    The use of those bows that need no ammo is good to save inventory space, but for an advanced use, in a hard modded game, are an inferior choice if physical ammo is not stacked, unless we are talking of an archer kit.
    At least this is my experience, my imoen with a sling pulls off some good dmg right at the beginning of the round and then has more then 5 sec to cast and relocate, with tasheron need more time for the bow for less damage done. I feel it competitive only early soa, when the str enhancing items are rare and the lev 2 mage slots still precious so good str for everybody is not granted.

  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    Has to be told that bows have a tactical advantage as poisoning arrows or arrows with different elemental damage can be used, an hasted guy with poisoning arrows can kill a beholder if he use well the dungeon features to hit and run away. The same is true for xbows.
    But this does not change what i told above.
    I was loving those bows that dont need arrows, using them without stacking, but when i begun to play with more callenging setups like the tactics mod insane difficulty i quickly realized that are not up to the task and other alernatives are much stronger.

    ilduderinoAerakar
  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    Moreover, Critical Hit with Bows should be x3 damage instead only x2:
    https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Weapons_overview

    About Boomerang Dagger +2, yes:
    kmzvghrxu1cf.png

    zv2iiyimdufc.png

    4l47g8xukhx9.png


    gorgonzola
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    Hehehe italiano, anche io.... :)

    Can you please check also the firetooth dagger? So we can file a bug on redmine as the dmg roll is bugged or the item description has to be changed.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,066
    edited August 21
    I always make sure Yoshimo/Imoen/Nalia got acid arrows equiped, not only do the extra acid make up for the little damage arrows cause (specially for non-fighter types) but they're also effective at disrupting spellcasting (it helps a lot against cowled wizards and their ilk).

    Aerakar
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,018
    gorgonzola wrote: »
    Hehehe italiano, anche io.... :)

    Can you please check also the firetooth dagger? So we can file a bug on redmine as the dmg roll is bugged or the item description has to be changed.
    It's a translation error, in English:

    In BG1, the Boomerang Dagger deals and describes 1d4+2.
    In BG2, the Boomerang Dagger deals and describes 2d4+2.
    In BG2, the Firetooth +3 deals and describes 2d4+3 (+1d2 fire).

    Aerakargorgonzola
  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 476
    @drnovice Question! What program are you using in those screenshots? I've been using NearInfinity to make tweaks to items (like when I changed the Robe of Vecna to use the appearance of the Robe of the Archmagi), but that program looks a lot cleaner and easier to use.

  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    edited August 22
    It's DLTCEP, aka DragonLance Total Conversion Editor Pro:
    https://www.gibberlings3.net/mods/tools/dltcep/

    I think it's easier too, it manages also new string texts title/description to create new items.

    About opcodes effects, you can find very good documentation here:
    https://gibberlings3.github.io/iesdp/opcodes/bgee.htm

    @kjeron: so into BG2 boomerang dagger damages is doubled?

    @gorgonzola: well compatriot ;) we can also talking about this topic on italian section:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/76614/info-tweaks-fixes-per-bg1-ee-relativo-a-bug-archi-con-munizioni-illimitate#latest

    P.S. Currently I can't find Firetooth dagger because I haven't installed BG2:EE.

    gorgonzola
  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    DJKajuru wrote: »
    I always make sure Yoshimo/Imoen/Nalia got acid arrows equiped, not only do the extra acid make up for the little damage arrows cause (specially for non-fighter types) but they're also effective at disrupting spellcasting (it helps a lot against cowled wizards and their ilk).
    It's true, we can have different strategies about ranged weapons: one less powerful but faster, one slower but more damages...
    I prefer the hasted fighting, when you see to fire 5 arrows per round, it's a pleasure :D

    DJKajuru
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 2,728
    i was thinking again on the topic with the focus on balance between ranged weapons in bg2.
    i am not concerned about consistency with pnp here, it can be very important for some players, but now i am only looking at the power of the different ranged weapons types.

    1. in bg if an enchanted ammo is used a dmg bonus is always applyed, in bg2 is not so. bows and xbows with enchanted ammo improve only thac0 and can hit more foe compared with the same with mundane arrows. sling still take the bonus, and there is plenty of enchanted bullets in soa, also +3 ones if you pay visit to WK.
    2. from the beginning of soa you can have 2 shields very good against ranged, the cheaper of them reflects the ammo to the enemy making you completely immune. with slings and other weapons like darts or daggers a toon can bait all the ranged enemies attacking them ranged, useful in the oasis, against kobolds and in many other situations.
    3. more dmg and less apr is an advantage if enchanted ammo is used, as less ammo is used with inventory space, cost if you buy them and overall availability advantages.
    a warrior with high dpr and tugian often improved hasted is awesome to see, is like a machine gun, but his stacks of precious arrows seeem to vanish so quick, my FMT specialized in sling using +3 and +4 bullets and having good str uses 5 ammo less each round for about the same effect and when uses GWW make way more damage then the (not archer) warrior with the best bow and GWW. at the end of the game i spare some good bullets even if i have always at least 3 sling users in the party, in all soa i use +1 and +2 ammo, from tob +2 is for the easy skirmishes.
    4. is true that bows and xbows can apply elemental damage, but also the firetooth dagger and some quite rare sling bullets do, there are enough of them to disrupt many mages. the poisoning effect seem to me much more powerful, hide, sneak, try to poison, run away and repeat tactics can take down many enemies that are other way very annoying like the beholders, good ST are needed, stack all the possible items, and boots of speed or haste as well. if you poison a mage you silence him for a good time, not only disrupt him and on and over. having more apr here is an advantage as more ST rolls are done.

    so yes every ranged weapon type is interesting, but i don't see the infinite arrows bows stacking the ammo damage broken, it probably help to keep them competitive, without both tugian and the other weapon types are stronger.
    i assume that a player give to his ranged attackers good str, at least the 18.50 from the lev 2 arcane spell that last quite long, and uses the enchanted bullets in all but the easiest fights.
    with the infinite arrows bows not stacking the ammo damage they are still an interesting weapon to play and can be really good for imoen/nalia (that ironically consume few ammo as they have 1 base apr) because the launcher and ammo thac0 stack, so they can boost their thac0 and hit also good ac foe, but mazzy would better go with tugian as she will anyway hit often.

    Aerakar
  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    The problem (with your reasoning) is: in BG2 only the two unlimited bows (Gesen & Tansheron) would be rebalanced respect slings/throwing daggers, but the all other bows??

    AD&D (and all these games based on those rules) should be firstly a realistic roleplaying simulation game.
    Every weapon in these games is designed to be used by a target classes/races: indeed realistically a dagger is more usable from a mage, not strong like figher, respect a two handed sword (3-4 Kg?) on battle.

    Short bows are the target to Imoen or anyone can't have STR 18: it's pretty normal a shortbow makes less damage respect a composite longbow, right?

    As blunt damage (Mace) is less serious respect slashing (Sword), and weapons damages table can demostrate it.
    So, I wonder how is possible a sling ammo (blunt) (ok let's say launched by a STR 19 figher) makes more damage respect a composite longbow arrow, launched by same character?!?
    I would like to remind composite longbows are create to take advantage even from the strength of those who stretching the bow.
    A (blunt) missile damage is of course less damage respect piercing damage, and default ammo telling that on damages table too.

    So maybe in BG2 all bows are to fix and go back to original BG1 damage, where already no STR bonus was given to damage, at least magical bonus to damage was correct (and faithful to P&P).

    [provocation]
    This nerfing on bows seems like a patch about the vogue to BG1 players to use mainly bows respect other ranged weapons.
    It's like if on Baldurs' Gate 3, swords won't give STR bonus to damage anymore, because there are and we see too much swords in these game and we would see anything else...

    gorgonzola
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,018
    @drnovice
    I think this mod of mine may interest you:
    https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/64051/prevent-launchers-ammo-less-ammunition-from-stacking-with-real-ammunition
    I'm not entirely sure if this is what you're looking for though - the translation is a bit rough.
    I'm also confused about your questions relating this to BG1EE, as these launchers only exist in BG2EE.
    drnovice wrote: »
    Moreover, Critical Hit with Bows should be x3 damage instead only x2:
    https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Weapons_overview
    That is from d&d 3.0/3.5 edition, not 2nd edition (which these games use).

  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    Nice! I will surely try it, thanks. :)
    I'm also confused about your questions relating this to BG1EE, as these launchers only exist in BG2EE.
    Yes, considering original background plot items.
    But I'm creating new unpublished items to use on my gameplay into BG1:EE, and even into first game, the descripted bug is there.

    So, if I understand correctly, bows into BG games don't add bow itself magical bonus to damage (but only magical bonus of arrow in BG1, removed in BG2), where instead P&P D&D does?

  • ZaxaresZaxares Member Posts: 476
    No, even in PnP the enhancement bonus of magical missile weapons and the enhancement bonus of magical ammunition does NOT stack. However, in 3.X at least, the missile weapon's enhancement bonus counts towards attack and damage for the purposes of damaging your opponent, even if you're using ordinary ammo. (The main reason why you'd want special ammunition is for stuff like Silver/Adamantine etc. arrows for killing specific enemies with weaknesses against certain materials.)

  • drnovicedrnovice Member Posts: 22
    Ok, but "does not stack" means that al least one of the two magical bonus is given to damage (magical arrow or magical bow if missile is normal arrow).
    Into BG2 none of those is given, right?

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