Yes... If I ever run a pub... I will sell alcoholic beverages at reasonable prices and call it the Twisted Cookie! And just like Starbucks I will pay my staff using tips alone and avoid paying tax! I will use @Nimran 's decapitated head as an emblem on each of my cups! (I would have used the lady of pain but Starbucks got there first...)
If he wants to be the most handsome in spite of being wrapped in those mouldering bandages, he's going to have to kill practically everyone! ... ah, yes, I see, that *is* his plan.
@Shandyr , @Gallowglass beauty is something that leads to Evil. The virgin soil should be ploughed and replaced with the fiery furnaces of industry. The trees shall be felled for fuel and the waters poisoned with waste.
Beauty is a fuel for evil because it can be corrupted so easily.
Yes. You serve yourself. You look down on others. You are better than them.
Yes. Now put your hand on your heart and feel the contempt breed inside you. Nurse it. Cherish it. Call it passion if you must...
Let it bloom into hate. For they will hate you first, oh great user, player, pimp.
You will win the good fight and they will despise you for it. Take the gold, take the spoils but do not take their love for you need it not, for your heart is black. I salute you unloved wretch!
Now spill your pain across the lands, let others feel the sting of your spiteful malice. For you are a wasp, and where the detritus of troubles fall, you will feast on the sugary carcass, and revel in its riches.
But I don't want any of that! I'd rather ... just ... SING!!!
I like singing. People sing to me all the time. If you want to hit the high notes, I have a fully equipped torture chamber you are welcome to use. However I recommend booking in advance. It is quite small and heavily used. To many people in there at once can make it a bit poky...
I have a fiery whip that would make a nice addition to your torture chamber. Take it from me if you dare!
I don't play evil parties all that much but when I do, I guess I don't look at things so black and white. I consider my companions less respectful of others and driven by personal gain but I don't look at them as the dark spawn from hell. Just because a character has a bad attitude and is predominantly driven by greed does not mean he or she has to treat everyone they cross paths with like dirt. Also, doing good, heroic things like a hero is still possible. All that is different is that you are doing those heroic deeds for a reward instead of doing them out of the kindness of your heart.
For me, an evil party does react differently in some conversations but not all. Some evil party members like Dorn and Edwin will want you to do some nasty things but even those can be worked around for the most part. If you play a lawful evil character you could avoid outright murder and even theft if you wanted to roleplay that way. Since you are the party leader you can tell your evil companions to stuff it if what they want you to do does not fit your roleplay.
My evil parties will ask about rewards when someone want them to do something. In some very rare cases I might turn down a task. For example, the women at the friendly arm inn who asks you to risk your life and kill hobgoblins over a ring of hers and she tells you she has nothing to offer you as a reward. I might pass on that task as an evil character. Of course you could always agree to it and use that knowledge to kill the hobgoblins for their loot and then pawn off the ring for your own gain as well. You don't get the experience reward for bringing it back to her but there is plenty of experience to max out your characters without completing missions like that. I keep the boots of stealth and the belt fetish ogre's girdle for my own benefit. I don't treat people poorly but I never go back to them if I gained an item I would rather keep. Unless, I feel that they might offer a reward that is better than the item I gained in the first place.
In the end I usually treat people decent and complete tasks for the purpose of gaining rewards. I guess my evil parties are simply greedy and intimidating people that have a harder edge in conversation sometimes. Other than that they are not much different than any other play through really. I enjoy their personalities because many of them are actually pretty funny. Playing an evil character doesn't mean you have to be a psychopath that murders innocent people for 5 gold pieces because that is what a properly role played evil character would do. That seems silly to me.
I have never played an evil character who is evil in everything he does just for the sake of being evil. That kind of evil doesn't really make sense to me. Even a serial killer might give back joseph's ring to his wife. I can't see someone making evil decisions like that just for the sake of being evil unless they are trying to impress evil allies by showing a lack of compassion. In fact that sounds like something an edgy teenager might do just to be mean as a way of going against the system or rebelling against society. It could be justified by an evil person but I don't feel like it needs to be done just because your character has an evil alignment. After all, you have some evil blood in your veins and self preservation may be your main concern but that doesn't mean you are required to do horrible things or show a complete lack of compassion at all times.
I particularly never completed an evil run... When I play a computer RPG I like to be the hero...
Likewise, it usually just doesn't feel right. But whenever I play Might & Magic 7 intending to take the path of light, by the time I reach the plot branch I'm usually out of righteous steam and sway to the dark side. Even now, started a party with only a paladin for clerical magic (hence light magic is strongly advisable to take), yet I feel it's not gonna end well this time too
Since Archibald is a very well written "villain", and one of the only examples of "smart evil" in all of gaming, taking the dark path in MM7 makes a lot of sense for certain personality types. Archibald wants to consolidate technological power from the Ancients to bring it under control, defeat extraplanetary threats once and for all, and have Enroth control its own destiny, under his leadership, of course. The "light" factions want to either destroy the technology and/or to accept thralldom to the celestials indefinitely, allowing the celestials to control the planet's fate.
Archibald and "evil" make a compelling case in MM7, that they are in the right, and that the "good" factions are really offering a form of slavery. Not that my MM7 characters agree with him - I almost always take the light path - but I can see how a sane, rational person who also has desire for power and riches, and maybe a bit of an angry or sadistic streak, could choose Archibald and the "dark" path.
@Anduin You will of course be using The Twisted Cookie as a business front for the the back operation, the place where your "high energy plankton" is developed into the most tastiest flour, shipped around the world with your special mug emblem. As your cups are already green with a cookie shaped badge, ya GOTS to make a special cookie for the pub as well. Use the same high energy "hangover reducing" flour (as a selling point), from grandma's special old world recipe for the cookie you call 'twistedlent green'.
Lawd, probably need to slow the mind down a bit now.
Hangover reducing flour? Plankton? Yes! YES!
We could sell it as an alternative medicine to healing potions and make a profit watching people die! Greed is good!
Yes... If I ever run a pub... I will sell alcoholic beverages at reasonable prices and call it the Twisted Cookie! And just like Starbucks I will pay my staff using tips alone and avoid paying tax! I will use @Nimran 's decapitated head as an emblem on each of my cups! (I would have used the lady of pain but Starbucks got there first...)
If he wants to be the most handsome in spite of being wrapped in those mouldering bandages, he's going to have to kill practically everyone! ... ah, yes, I see, that *is* his plan.
@Shandyr , @Gallowglass beauty is something that leads to Evil. The virgin soil should be ploughed and replaced with the fiery furnaces of industry. The trees shall be felled for fuel and the waters poisoned with waste.
Beauty is a fuel for evil because it can be corrupted so easily.
Yes. You serve yourself. You look down on others. You are better than them.
Yes. Now put your hand on your heart and feel the contempt breed inside you. Nurse it. Cherish it. Call it passion if you must...
Let it bloom into hate. For they will hate you first, oh great user, player, pimp.
You will win the good fight and they will despise you for it. Take the gold, take the spoils but do not take their love for you need it not, for your heart is black. I salute you unloved wretch!
Now spill your pain across the lands, let others feel the sting of your spiteful malice. For you are a wasp, and where the detritus of troubles fall, you will feast on the sugary carcass, and revel in its riches.
But I don't want any of that! I'd rather ... just ... SING!!!
I like singing. People sing to me all the time. If you want to hit the high notes, I have a fully equipped torture chamber you are welcome to use. However I recommend booking in advance. It is quite small and heavily used. To many people in there at once can make it a bit poky...
I have a fiery whip that would make a nice addition to your torture chamber. Take it from me if you dare!
Thank you but the torture room is so small you can only just swing a dead cat in it...
I don't play evil parties all that much but when I do, I guess I don't look at things so black and white. I consider my companions less respectful of others and driven by personal gain but I don't look at them as the dark spawn from hell. Just because a character has a bad attitude and is predominantly driven by greed does not mean he or she has to treat everyone they cross paths with like dirt. Also, doing good, heroic things like a hero is still possible. All that is different is that you are doing those heroic deeds for a reward instead of doing them out of the kindness of your heart.
For me, an evil party does react differently in some conversations but not all. Some evil party members like Dorn and Edwin will want you to do some nasty things but even those can be worked around for the most part. If you play a lawful evil character you could avoid outright murder and even theft if you wanted to roleplay that way. Since you are the party leader you can tell your evil companions to stuff it if what they want you to do does not fit your roleplay.
My evil parties will ask about rewards when someone want them to do something. In some very rare cases I might turn down a task. For example, the women at the friendly arm inn who asks you to risk your life and kill hobgoblins over a ring of hers and she tells you she has nothing to offer you as a reward. I might pass on that task as an evil character. Of course you could always agree to it and use that knowledge to kill the hobgoblins for their loot and then pawn off the ring for your own gain as well. You don't get the experience reward for bringing it back to her but there is plenty of experience to max out your characters without completing missions like that. I keep the boots of stealth and the belt fetish ogre's girdle for my own benefit. I don't treat people poorly but I never go back to them if I gained an item I would rather keep. Unless, I feel that they might offer a reward that is better than the item I gained in the first place.
In the end I usually treat people decent and complete tasks for the purpose of gaining rewards. I guess my evil parties are simply greedy and intimidating people that have a harder edge in conversation sometimes. Other than that they are not much different than any other play through really. I enjoy their personalities because many of them are actually pretty funny. Playing an evil character doesn't mean you have to be a psychopath that murders innocent people for 5 gold pieces because that is what a properly role played evil character would do. That seems silly to me.
I have never played an evil character who is evil in everything he does just for the sake of being evil. That kind of evil doesn't really make sense to me. Even a serial killer might give back joseph's ring to his wife. I can't see someone making evil decisions like that just for the sake of being evil unless they are trying to impress evil allies by showing a lack of compassion. In fact that sounds like something an edgy teenager might do just to be mean as a way of going against the system or rebelling against society. It could be justified by an evil person but I don't feel like it needs to be done just because your character has an evil alignment. After all, you have some evil blood in your veins and self preservation may be your main concern but that doesn't mean you are required to do horrible things or show a complete lack of compassion at all times.
Yes. The Evil you are portraying is the respectable Evil that we live with everyday.
The city banker that makes millions but avoids paying his taxes whilst investing in arm sales and spending his cash acting as a sugar daddy to only the most voluptuous and desperately poor students who give out to get an education.
Yes, @the_sextein , you stand side by side with excellent company. This Evil is the best because no one will lift a finger to stop your villainous schemes.
Now... I have a job for you... It will be most... Lucrative... For the both of us...
*Anduin smiles the smile of a fleshless skull... It is a permanent feature.*
Anduin I disagree, the evil I am describing is much more subtle. In fact most evil characters are more prone to tell it like it is than hide behind the PC rules of society. Even if it means hurting the feelings of generally good people in the process. If someone does something good that helps people then they did something good. The intent behind it is what makes the difference between a good willed hero and a greedy profiteer. A banker who rips people off because he can get away with it legally is very much lawful evil but the act of ripping off millions for self gain is much more sinister than doing works of charity with hopes of compensation. Having a no bull attitude and a self centered outlook on life is selfish but being selfish doesn't make a person totally evil and force them to do horrible things to others for self gain or otherwise. Stealing is not good but it doesn't make for your typical evil archetype either. A thief is still capable of compassion and acts of good.
I find stupid evil as impossible to play as stupid good. Asking for compensation may be considered the greedy option in Baldur's Gate but I don't find anything wrong with it. Who wouldn't expect something in return for a hard days work? That doesn't mean that you can't be charitable at times but I find risking your life over a ring that someone wants back for nothing in return is a bit stupid even for a good aligned character. Killing multiple creatures and risking your life over a simple ring for nothing? Both lack logic and common sense. Most are too wrapped up in there own feelings to look at the whole picture.
I play characters who are usually neutral. As a result, when I play a good character or an evil character they are usually not very extreme in their ability to do good or evil. In fact most of my Good, Evil, and neutral characters are very similar in most ways. The differences are subtle. That is my point. You can roleplay a good or evil character without being an extremist and falling into what I consider stupid categories. You can be a paladin and do acts of good for nothing or you can be a blackguard murderer who destroys all in his path to success but these are both extreme shades of the good and evil roles that can be played. Nothing is keeping us from playing a much less extreme version of good and evil. The links you provided are examples of extreme lawful evil in modern day society and has nothing to do with this game or what I was saying.
Anduin I disagree, the evil I am describing is much more subtle. In fact most evil characters are more prone to tell it like it is than hide behind the PC rules of society. Even if it means hurting the feelings of generally good people in the process. If someone does something good that helps people then they did something good. The intent behind it is what makes the difference between a good willed hero and a greedy profiteer. A banker who rips people off because he can get away with it legally is very much lawful evil but the act of ripping off millions for self gain is much more sinister than doing works of charity with hopes of compensation. Having a no bull attitude and a self centered outlook on life is selfish but being selfish doesn't make a person totally evil and force them to do horrible things to others for self gain or otherwise. Stealing is not good but it doesn't make for your typical evil archetype either. A thief is still capable of compassion and acts of good.
I find stupid evil as impossible to play as stupid good. Asking for compensation may be considered the greedy option in Baldur's Gate but I don't find anything wrong with it. Who wouldn't expect something in return for a hard days work? That doesn't mean that you can't be charitable at times but I find risking your life over a ring that someone wants back for nothing in return is a bit stupid even for a good aligned character. Killing multiple creatures and risking your life over a simple ring for nothing? Both lack logic and common sense. Most are too wrapped up in there own feelings to look at the whole picture.
I play characters who are usually neutral. As a result, when I play a good character or an evil character they are usually not very extreme in their ability to do good or evil. In fact most of my Good, Evil, and neutral characters are very similar in most ways. The differences are subtle. That is my point. You can roleplay a good or evil character without being an extremist and falling into what I consider stupid categories. You can be a paladin and do acts of good for nothing or you can be a blackguard murderer who destroys all in his path to success but these are both extreme shades of the good and evil roles that can be played. Nothing is keeping us from playing a much less extreme version of good and evil. The links you provided are examples of extreme lawful evil in modern day society and has nothing to do with this game or what I was saying.
I doubt any of the people I used in my examples think they are evil, let alone extremists! Extremists are those shouting out they are evil then commiting very public atrocities (the world is full of nut jobs) Remember you are on an axis with good and evil either side. Every hero falls somewhere on this line... And if your evil is so subtle... It is more neutral...
For the purposes of this thread, I would prefer that we not get into heated discussions concerning rl morality.
I try to keep the finer points of rl morality out of my gameplay. As they say, when in Baldur’s Gate…
The thing is, not everyone will interpret the game world in the same way, anymore than they interpret the real world the same. One quick look in the Politics thread will open your eyes to just how differently people can see anything and everything.
What I am most interested in here is how you interpret the world that Baldur’s Gate is set in, and your characters place in it.
Ah yes, the politics thread.... That is the one thread in this forum that I have intentionally restrained from posting in. I would open up a can of uncontrollable hatred that would get me banned instantly. I know my limits lol.
Ravenslight, have you ever considered playing a solo game completely devoid of any heroics? What I mean is that you simply roam the landscape like a vagabond. You get to the nashkel mines whenever you get bored enough to roam into them. No morals, no heroics, you just wander around and talk to people and explore. If someone asks you to do something you ask what they are going to do for you and you get to it if you happen to wander around the area they describe. You owe the world nothing.
You deal with the various situations with whatever feels appropriate and you let nobody lay claim to your actions, morals, nothing. You act as a loan wolf sleeping outdoors in nature and destroying all who try to destroy you. Wandering aimlessly until the whole game is completed and your story ends the same as everyone else's. You could give yourself a good, evil, or neutral alignment. It wouldn't really matter in the end. All there is, is you and the world. Whatever happens, happens. That kind of mindset opens me up to just about any type of play though really.
Ah yes, the politics thread.... That is the one thread in this forum that I have intentionally restrained from posting in. I would open up a can of uncontrollable hatred that would get me banned instantly. I know my limits lol.
No need to fear. Come one, come all. The politics thread is actually very civil, believe it or not. All viewpoints are welcome there without the vitriol of every other political commentary sight I've visited. If you can argue without taking things personally I'd love to hear your viewpoint.
@the_sextein Actually, I like that idea. But I don’t believe that I would last long in a solo game. I like interacting with party NPCs too much. I am about to start a new game with a character who is somewhat withdrawn and distrustful of most people. I foresee her and Imoen spending quite a bit of time in the wilderness, trying to make their way before braving the more populated areas in search of supplies, as well as answers.
I want to focus a bit more on necessity and survival as motivations, rather than heroics or the wish to help others on this run. Also a bit more on revenge. A motivation I haven’t explored much before. Of the few people that she has been close to in her short life, Gorion was the most important.
I think the necessity of her needing to interact with people and situations that she would normally avoid could be fun to role-play
Among many players, killing this character is a very popular thing to do. I personally have never felt the slightest inclination to do so, quite the opposite. I only wish one could have more conversations with this character.
But I can at least understand some of the motivations behind the reasons that some other people gleefully look forward to being the cause of this characters early demise. I can understand the reasons why it is a fun thing for them to do.
A power-gamer might want the weapons and armor he carries. Some people might see the challenge of the battle itself as great fun. Perfectly understandable. I may not have the same motivations, but I can at least understand their reasons.
I personally find the alignment system within the game most frustrating because it blocks me from enjoying a mixed party of characters. Some advise getting around this by managing reputation. But for me this “side game” of “Whoops, reputation is too high, time to kill an innocent or pop NPCs in and out of the party.”, not only goes against my grain, but most definitely takes me out of the world and my role-play.
What I find myself wondering most often lately is what is it that I’m missing about the allure of playing an evil character. I don’t mean committing occasional evil acts. For one thing, I feel that what is evil and what is not is often subjective and heavily influenced by ones culture and upbringing. We could go on forever in endless debate about what is evil and what is not. That is not the point of my question.
What I would like to know is what makes playing an evilly aligned character within the game-world of Baldur’s Gate appealing? Perhaps one person thinks the rewards are better. Perhaps one thinks simply mowing down everything in their path is a great way to relive the tensions of the day. Another may find it therapeutic to not feel the need to be nice, or heroic, or have to answer for their actions as they do in real life.
"What I would like to know is what makes playing an evilly aligned character within the game-world of Baldur’s Gate appealing? Perhaps one person thinks the rewards are better. Perhaps one thinks simply mowing down everything in their path is a great way to relive the tensions of the day. Another may find it therapeutic to not feel the need to be nice, or heroic, or have to answer for their actions as they do in real life."
The game is limited, and quite clearly comes from a perspective that you(charname) should be a goodie two shoes. I think you are reading far too much into whether a person plays evil in game when it cannot but help to encourage this.
Utterly meaningless to most people's live regardless of their precious snowflake sensibilities, but who on earth cannot identify with it on some level?
Take Drizzt Do’Urden for example. Among many players, killing this character is a very popular thing to do. I personally have never felt the slightest inclination to do so, quite the opposite.
What I would like to know is what makes playing an evilly aligned character within the game-world of Baldur’s Gate appealing? Perhaps one person thinks the rewards are better. Perhaps one thinks simply mowing down everything in their path is a great way to relive the tensions of the day. Another may find it therapeutic to not feel the need to be nice, or heroic, or have to answer for their actions as they do in real life.
So are you saying that because the game is so obviously pushing you towards playing a goodie two shoes character, doing the opposite, “Raging Against the Machine” becomes a satisfying experience?
So are you saying that because the game is so obviously pushing you towards playing a goodie two shoes character, doing the opposite, “Raging Against the Machine” becomes a satisfying experience?
(chuckle) Well I’ve been fooled before. Perhaps this Drizzt fellow only hides behind a facade of virtue and is indeed in need of a good thrashing.
I tend to agree that the jury is still out on dentists.
Yep, I don't think it's as deep and meaningful as this discussion is making it. I too never play evil, but OMG do some of the assumptions in game make you want to lash out. In particular regarding recruitable NPC.
Look at the way evil NPC are recruited. Edwin demands murder, Viconia to save her you have to kill the guard, Shar Teel a silly fight, Eldoth some conspiracy to hurt a respectable family. X and M well you get given potions but that's all too normal, got to have Monteron muttering about murdering you. Safana comes across like a cat on heat (cause sex of course is evil) rather than a simple straightforward, lets go get some treasure.
In comparison, Garrick gets away scot free having set you up helping a psychopath. Minsc attacks you if you say no, but hey that's OK, he's good. Jaheira is rude and dismissive and has no regard for your safety involving you in a dangerous Harper mission, never gets mentioned.
The game is blatent about the path you "ought" to take, reinforced by the decision (understandable with the constraints of making the game) to include those NPC in the starting dungeon BG2.
So indeed, RATM, it's fantasy after all, and you will still have to get up in the morning and go to work.
I mostly play evil and the origin of this tendency can be explained with the immortal words of Kishibe Rohan.
BG wants me to be good. There is zero incentive to be anything else. Good gives you more money, more XP and you don't lose on any substantial content.
Well, fuck you game. You ain't telling me what to do.
Putting my inner contrarian aside, I guess the setting kind of plays a role too. I have zero interest in the Forgotten Realms because I don't do PnP and BG does very little world-building or anything to make you care about the inhabitants of the lands you visit. The little I do know about it makes me even less interested in being a goody-two-shoes on the grounds Faerun is and will remain a crappy place no matter what you do.
I think I better understand your point now. Thank you
In general, I tend to agree with your points on the evil NPCs. One is sometimes forced to either ignore certain things (pretend they don’t happen) or try to come up with reasons that your character accepts certain odd things that happen.
Take dear Edwin for example. I like the general concept of this character, as I perceive him. Extremely intelligent, egotistical, user of people and women in particular, and he has a definite agenda. I also find the way he mutters to himself about his true feelings to be amusing.
However his initial interaction with the party always bends my mind a bit. “Join me idiot, murder this woman”. I always find myself pretending that he does not state his case this way. In my mind, he would be much subtler, evasive in his approach.
I also believe that Boo would never allow Minsc to kill an innocent simply because they said no.
Having said that, I think the original developers did a good job in creating strong personalities using limited dialogue. Baldur’s Gate is a big game and they did provide quite a number of interesting personalities to interact with. I think the point was to quickly give the player a strong idea of who the characters are, without much in depth dialogue. I think they succeeded in this.
The developers did a great job with the NPC's. Many complaints stem from knowing the game very well and expanding/RPing for yourself and projecting your ideas onto the NPC. But what they created was good enough to support that.
The contrast with the new EE NPC's throws the spotlight on just how good a job the original writers did. The EE NPC talk more (far too much in a lot of cases) and still have no real personalities other than annoying and "look at me". Baeloth is the only one who fits with the feel of BG IMO.
I mostly play evil and the origin of this tendency can be explained with the immortal words of Kishibe Rohan.
BG wants me to be good. There is zero incentive to be anything else. Good gives you more money, more XP and you don't lose on any substantial content.
Quite close to my situation. The moment I hear someone telling me to go prove myself worthy of the honor being a noble champion of justice, imma like "go screw yourself"
Among many players, killing this character is a very popular thing to do. I personally have never felt the slightest inclination to do so, quite the opposite. I only wish one could have more conversations with this character.
But I can at least understand some of the motivations behind the reasons that some other people gleefully look forward to being the cause of this characters early demise. I can understand the reasons why it is a fun thing for them to do.
A power-gamer might want the weapons and armor he carries. Some people might see the challenge of the battle itself as great fun. Perfectly understandable. I may not have the same motivations, but I can at least understand their reasons.
I personally find the alignment system within the game most frustrating because it blocks me from enjoying a mixed party of characters. Some advise getting around this by managing reputation. But for me this “side game” of “Whoops, reputation is too high, time to kill an innocent or pop NPCs in and out of the party.”, not only goes against my grain, but most definitely takes me out of the world and my role-play.
What I find myself wondering most often lately is what is it that I’m missing about the allure of playing an evil character. I don’t mean committing occasional evil acts. For one thing, I feel that what is evil and what is not is often subjective and heavily influenced by ones culture and upbringing. We could go on forever in endless debate about what is evil and what is not. That is not the point of my question.
What I would like to know is what makes playing an evilly aligned character within the game-world of Baldur’s Gate appealing? Perhaps one person thinks the rewards are better. Perhaps one thinks simply mowing down everything in their path is a great way to relive the tensions of the day. Another may find it therapeutic to not feel the need to be nice, or heroic, or have to answer for their actions as they do in real life.
I have never killed drizzt. I don't think a good character would have a reason to and evil characters can't use his weapons so I don't really see a point in doing it personally.
My first run through the game, I stuck with the first people who agreed to work with me. Two of them were evil and one of them was neutral and two of them was good. I did have to get cought stealing and run away a few times just to keep my reputation in order. I played the game like a hero with a couple of loud mouthed complainers in my group. I found my evil companions kind of funny actually and never considered my group a force of evil.
Oddly enough, I have been playing heroic parties with the cannon group for a while now. I think I do it because the story and character progression between games seem to gel better.
Your question about gamers who like to play truly evil characters I cannot answer but I imagine it's like playing a game of GTA or something where you are just running around acting crazy for fun or seeing the game as a movie rather than a personal experience that you are injecting yourself into. Watching a scary movie full of blood and bullets is probably not considered evil by most of us. Many gamers approach games like they are just watching a movie.
I wouldn't mind trying a truly evil group one time just to see how NPC's react to certain dialog choices I would never make using my own judgement normally.
BTW, I am done derailing your thread with arguments about morality or judgments on right and wrong. I have contributed all that I have on this topic and left my opinion. It doesn't bother me if anyone disagree with me but I have no more will power to argue about these things so I am signing out on this one. Good thread though.
The intent of this thread was never to create a philosophical debate about real life morality. Such sensitive issues, as with politics, deserve their own thread where those who enjoy discussing such sensitive topics in a forum setting can do so. Perhaps such a thread could be created for people who wish to continue that discussion.
I repeatedly find myself feeling extremely uncomfortable watching the turn some of these comments take. Especially when they are expressed as absolute truths. I respect everyone's view and their right to express that view, but this is not the place to do it.
If such questions could be easily answered and agreed upon we would all be living as one big happy world clan. We are not.
Comments
For me, an evil party does react differently in some conversations but not all. Some evil party members like Dorn and Edwin will want you to do some nasty things but even those can be worked around for the most part. If you play a lawful evil character you could avoid outright murder and even theft if you wanted to roleplay that way. Since you are the party leader you can tell your evil companions to stuff it if what they want you to do does not fit your roleplay.
My evil parties will ask about rewards when someone want them to do something. In some very rare cases I might turn down a task. For example, the women at the friendly arm inn who asks you to risk your life and kill hobgoblins over a ring of hers and she tells you she has nothing to offer you as a reward. I might pass on that task as an evil character. Of course you could always agree to it and use that knowledge to kill the hobgoblins for their loot and then pawn off the ring for your own gain as well. You don't get the experience reward for bringing it back to her but there is plenty of experience to max out your characters without completing missions like that. I keep the boots of stealth and the belt fetish ogre's girdle for my own benefit. I don't treat people poorly but I never go back to them if I gained an item I would rather keep. Unless, I feel that they might offer a reward that is better than the item I gained in the first place.
In the end I usually treat people decent and complete tasks for the purpose of gaining rewards. I guess my evil parties are simply greedy and intimidating people that have a harder edge in conversation sometimes. Other than that they are not much different than any other play through really. I enjoy their personalities because many of them are actually pretty funny. Playing an evil character doesn't mean you have to be a psychopath that murders innocent people for 5 gold pieces because that is what a properly role played evil character would do. That seems silly to me.
I have never played an evil character who is evil in everything he does just for the sake of being evil. That kind of evil doesn't really make sense to me. Even a serial killer might give back joseph's ring to his wife. I can't see someone making evil decisions like that just for the sake of being evil unless they are trying to impress evil allies by showing a lack of compassion. In fact that sounds like something an edgy teenager might do just to be mean as a way of going against the system or rebelling against society. It could be justified by an evil person but I don't feel like it needs to be done just because your character has an evil alignment. After all, you have some evil blood in your veins and self preservation may be your main concern but that doesn't mean you are required to do horrible things or show a complete lack of compassion at all times.
Archibald and "evil" make a compelling case in MM7, that they are in the right, and that the "good" factions are really offering a form of slavery. Not that my MM7 characters agree with him - I almost always take the light path - but I can see how a sane, rational person who also has desire for power and riches, and maybe a bit of an angry or sadistic streak, could choose Archibald and the "dark" path.
We could sell it as an alternative medicine to healing potions and make a profit watching people die! Greed is good!
Thank you but the torture room is so small you can only just swing a dead cat in it...
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/not_enough_room_to_swing_a_cat Yes. The Evil you are portraying is the respectable Evil that we live with everyday.
The city banker that makes millions but avoids paying his taxes whilst investing in arm sales and spending his cash acting as a sugar daddy to only the most voluptuous and desperately poor students who give out to get an education.
https://www.seekingarrangement.com
The politicians who say one thing to the working people to gain power then take money from the corporations to do the opposite.
https://theintercept.com/2015/07/30/politicians-admitting-obvious-fact-money-affects-vote/
The police who wish to be politically correct rather than ask the difficult questions.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/all-about/rotherham-child-abuse-scandal
Yes, @the_sextein , you stand side by side with excellent company. This Evil is the best because no one will lift a finger to stop your villainous schemes.
Now... I have a job for you... It will be most... Lucrative... For the both of us...
*Anduin smiles the smile of a fleshless skull... It is a permanent feature.*
I find stupid evil as impossible to play as stupid good. Asking for compensation may be considered the greedy option in Baldur's Gate but I don't find anything wrong with it. Who wouldn't expect something in return for a hard days work? That doesn't mean that you can't be charitable at times but I find risking your life over a ring that someone wants back for nothing in return is a bit stupid even for a good aligned character. Killing multiple creatures and risking your life over a simple ring for nothing? Both lack logic and common sense. Most are too wrapped up in there own feelings to look at the whole picture.
I play characters who are usually neutral. As a result, when I play a good character or an evil character they are usually not very extreme in their ability to do good or evil. In fact most of my Good, Evil, and neutral characters are very similar in most ways. The differences are subtle. That is my point. You can roleplay a good or evil character without being an extremist and falling into what I consider stupid categories. You can be a paladin and do acts of good for nothing or you can be a blackguard murderer who destroys all in his path to success but these are both extreme shades of the good and evil roles that can be played. Nothing is keeping us from playing a much less extreme version of good and evil. The links you provided are examples of extreme lawful evil in modern day society and has nothing to do with this game or what I was saying.
not needed, i'm just evil.
If I pay someone to kill a peaceful golden dragon, am I less evil than the person who kills the dragon for me?
...
And if I then have scrambled dragon egg on toast... Does that make me extra Evil or simply show my lack of culinary expertise?
I try to keep the finer points of rl morality out of my gameplay. As they say, when in Baldur’s Gate…
The thing is, not everyone will interpret the game world in the same way, anymore than they interpret the real world the same. One quick look in the Politics thread will open your eyes to just how differently people can see anything and everything.
What I am most interested in here is how you interpret the world that Baldur’s Gate is set in, and your characters place in it.
You deal with the various situations with whatever feels appropriate and you let nobody lay claim to your actions, morals, nothing. You act as a loan wolf sleeping outdoors in nature and destroying all who try to destroy you. Wandering aimlessly until the whole game is completed and your story ends the same as everyone else's. You could give yourself a good, evil, or neutral alignment. It wouldn't really matter in the end. All there is, is you and the world. Whatever happens, happens. That kind of mindset opens me up to just about any type of play though really.
Actually, I like that idea. But I don’t believe that I would last long in a solo game. I like interacting with party NPCs too much. I am about to start a new game with a character who is somewhat withdrawn and distrustful of most people. I foresee her and Imoen spending quite a bit of time in the wilderness, trying to make their way before braving the more populated areas in search of supplies, as well as answers.
I want to focus a bit more on necessity and survival as motivations, rather than heroics or the wish to help others on this run. Also a bit more on revenge. A motivation I haven’t explored much before. Of the few people that she has been close to in her short life, Gorion was the most important.
I think the necessity of her needing to interact with people and situations that she would normally avoid could be fun to role-play
Among many players, killing this character is a very popular thing to do. I personally have never felt the slightest inclination to do so, quite the opposite. I only wish one could have more conversations with this character.
But I can at least understand some of the motivations behind the reasons that some other people gleefully look forward to being the cause of this characters early demise. I can understand the reasons why it is a fun thing for them to do.
A power-gamer might want the weapons and armor he carries. Some people might see the challenge of the battle itself as great fun. Perfectly understandable. I may not have the same motivations, but I can at least understand their reasons.
I personally find the alignment system within the game most frustrating because it blocks me from enjoying a mixed party of characters. Some advise getting around this by managing reputation. But for me this “side game” of “Whoops, reputation is too high, time to kill an innocent or pop NPCs in and out of the party.”, not only goes against my grain, but most definitely takes me out of the world and my role-play.
What I find myself wondering most often lately is what is it that I’m missing about the allure of playing an evil character. I don’t mean committing occasional evil acts. For one thing, I feel that what is evil and what is not is often subjective and heavily influenced by ones culture and upbringing. We could go on forever in endless debate about what is evil and what is not. That is not the point of my question.
What I would like to know is what makes playing an evilly aligned character within the game-world of Baldur’s Gate appealing? Perhaps one person thinks the rewards are better. Perhaps one thinks simply mowing down everything in their path is a great way to relive the tensions of the day. Another may find it therapeutic to not feel the need to be nice, or heroic, or have to answer for their actions as they do in real life.
"What I would like to know is what makes playing an evilly aligned character within the game-world of Baldur’s Gate appealing? Perhaps one person thinks the rewards are better. Perhaps one thinks simply mowing down everything in their path is a great way to relive the tensions of the day. Another may find it therapeutic to not feel the need to be nice, or heroic, or have to answer for their actions as they do in real life."
The game is limited, and quite clearly comes from a perspective that you(charname) should be a goodie two shoes. I think you are reading far too much into whether a person plays evil in game when it cannot but help to encourage this.
Rage Against The Machine
Utterly meaningless to most people's live regardless of their precious snowflake sensibilities, but who on earth cannot identify with it on some level?
So are you saying that because the game is so obviously pushing you towards playing a goodie two shoes character, doing the opposite, “Raging Against the Machine” becomes a satisfying experience?
@OrlonKronsteen said:
Never? C’mon - he’s asking for it.
(chuckle) Well I’ve been fooled before. Perhaps this Drizzt fellow only hides behind a facade of virtue and is indeed in need of a good thrashing.
I tend to agree that the jury is still out on dentists.
Yep, I don't think it's as deep and meaningful as this discussion is making it.
I too never play evil, but OMG do some of the assumptions in game make you want to lash out. In particular regarding recruitable NPC.
Look at the way evil NPC are recruited. Edwin demands murder, Viconia to save her you have to kill the guard, Shar Teel a silly fight, Eldoth some conspiracy to hurt a respectable family. X and M well you get given potions but that's all too normal, got to have Monteron muttering about murdering you. Safana comes across like a cat on heat (cause sex of course is evil) rather than a simple straightforward, lets go get some treasure.
In comparison, Garrick gets away scot free having set you up helping a psychopath. Minsc attacks you if you say no, but hey that's OK, he's good. Jaheira is rude and dismissive and has no regard for your safety involving you in a dangerous Harper mission, never gets mentioned.
The game is blatent about the path you "ought" to take, reinforced by the decision (understandable with the constraints of making the game) to include those NPC in the starting dungeon BG2.
So indeed, RATM, it's fantasy after all, and you will still have to get up in the morning and go to work.
BG wants me to be good. There is zero incentive to be anything else. Good gives you more money, more XP and you don't lose on any substantial content.
Well, fuck you game. You ain't telling me what to do.
Putting my inner contrarian aside, I guess the setting kind of plays a role too. I have zero interest in the Forgotten Realms because I don't do PnP and BG does very little world-building or anything to make you care about the inhabitants of the lands you visit. The little I do know about it makes me even less interested in being a goody-two-shoes on the grounds Faerun is and will remain a crappy place no matter what you do.
I think I better understand your point now. Thank you
In general, I tend to agree with your points on the evil NPCs. One is sometimes forced to either ignore certain things (pretend they don’t happen) or try to come up with reasons that your character accepts certain odd things that happen.
Take dear Edwin for example.
However his initial interaction with the party always bends my mind a bit. “Join me idiot, murder this woman”. I always find myself pretending that he does not state his case this way. In my mind, he would be much subtler, evasive in his approach.
I also believe that Boo would never allow Minsc to kill an innocent simply because they said no.
Having said that, I think the original developers did a good job in creating strong personalities using limited dialogue. Baldur’s Gate is a big game and they did provide quite a number of interesting personalities to interact with. I think the point was to quickly give the player a strong idea of who the characters are, without much in depth dialogue. I think they succeeded in this.
The developers did a great job with the NPC's. Many complaints stem from knowing the game very well and expanding/RPing for yourself and projecting your ideas onto the NPC. But what they created was good enough to support that.
The contrast with the new EE NPC's throws the spotlight on just how good a job the original writers did. The EE NPC talk more (far too much in a lot of cases) and still have no real personalities other than annoying and "look at me".
Baeloth is the only one who fits with the feel of BG IMO.
My first run through the game, I stuck with the first people who agreed to work with me. Two of them were evil and one of them was neutral and two of them was good. I did have to get cought stealing and run away a few times just to keep my reputation in order. I played the game like a hero with a couple of loud mouthed complainers in my group. I found my evil companions kind of funny actually and never considered my group a force of evil.
Oddly enough, I have been playing heroic parties with the cannon group for a while now. I think I do it because the story and character progression between games seem to gel better.
Your question about gamers who like to play truly evil characters I cannot answer but I imagine it's like playing a game of GTA or something where you are just running around acting crazy for fun or seeing the game as a movie rather than a personal experience that you are injecting yourself into. Watching a scary movie full of blood and bullets is probably not considered evil by most of us. Many gamers approach games like they are just watching a movie.
I wouldn't mind trying a truly evil group one time just to see how NPC's react to certain dialog choices I would never make using my own judgement normally.
BTW, I am done derailing your thread with arguments about morality or judgments on right and wrong. I have contributed all that I have on this topic and left my opinion. It doesn't bother me if anyone disagree with me but I have no more will power to argue about these things so I am signing out on this one. Good thread though.
I repeatedly find myself feeling extremely uncomfortable watching the turn some of these comments take. Especially when they are expressed as absolute truths. I respect everyone's view and their right to express that view, but this is not the place to do it.
If such questions could be easily answered and agreed upon we would all be living as one big happy world clan. We are not.